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Old 09-14-2009, 07:01 PM   #1
Suru
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Re: You're sensei, I'm sensei, Everyone's sensei

Quote:
John Matsushima wrote: View Post
Too many "wanna-be chiefs" and not enough injins.
My eighth grade basketball coach said that to us once, only he said, "Indians." Your slang is disrespectful to the American Indian, therefore racist, therefore offensive to the Grand Dream of O'Sensei, therefore offensive to me.

I don't know whether your phrase contains hatred, ignorance, or both, but I highly recommend not using derogatory ethnic words unless spoken through a character in a fictional work.

Drew
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Old 09-14-2009, 08:10 PM   #2
mjhacker
 
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Re: You're sensei, I'm sensei, Everyone's sensei

Quote:
Drew Gardner wrote: View Post
My eighth grade basketball coach said that to us once, only he said, "Indians." Your slang is disrespectful to the American Indian, therefore racist, therefore offensive to the Grand Dream of O'Sensei, therefore offensive to me.
That's a pretty wide racist brush you paint with. What a condescending, presumptive thing to say. What a way to live.

I'm sure you know that calling them "American," let alone "Indians" is the real insult, right?

Is it safe to assume you know the names by which each Native tribe refers to itself and that you use said nomenclature when speaking of them rather than the names given to them by their enemies?

For instance, all of my "Navajo" students called themselves Dine' ("the people"). A few others are:

Apache ("the enemy") = Ndee ("the people")
Comanche ("they fight with us") = Numinu ("the people")
Mohawk ("man-eaters") = Kanienkehaka ("people of the flint")

Michael Hacker
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自由心流合気武道 - 鍛心館
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Old 09-14-2009, 09:52 PM   #3
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Re: You're sensei, I'm sensei, Everyone's sensei

[quote=
I'm sure you know that calling them "American," let alone "Indians" is the real insult, right?
[/QUOTE]

My worst fear is materializing; the ignorance continues.

Drew
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Old 09-14-2009, 10:02 PM   #4
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Re: You're sensei, I'm sensei, Everyone's sensei

How did a "sensei" topic turn into one about racism... Hmm... Easy mates, eeeaaasyyyy....!!! Where's the Aikido spirit, "peace and harmony" ... oh... It's GONE!!! Someone bust out the pipe, please!
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Old 09-14-2009, 10:51 PM   #5
mjhacker
 
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Re: You're sensei, I'm sensei, Everyone's sensei

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Drew Gardner wrote: View Post
My worst fear is materializing; the ignorance continues.
Thank you for the well-reasoned, thoughtful discussion.

Michael Hacker
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Old 09-15-2009, 08:15 AM   #6
C. David Henderson
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Re: You're sensei, I'm sensei, Everyone's sensei

Quote:
Michael Hacker wrote: View Post
[It's important to] know the names by which each Native tribe refers to itself and that you use said nomenclature when speaking of them rather than the names given to them by their enemies?

For instance, all of my "Navajo" students called themselves Dine' ("the people"). A few others are:

Apache ("the enemy") = Ndee ("the people")
Comanche ("they fight with us") = Numinu ("the people")
Mohawk ("man-eaters") = Kanienkehaka ("people of the flint")
This is my experience as well. If you go into the governmental offices of one of the Tewa pueblos of the Rio Grande Valley area, you'll see a seal with their name for their people in their language.

Thanks for posting Michael.

cdh
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Old 09-15-2009, 09:16 AM   #7
Keith Larman
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Re: "Indians"

Interesting... I'd always thought of the word "injins" as a vestige of Hollywood depictions of the "twang" of old west speech (which was probably more Hollywood than reality). Kind of like the way Gabby Hayes would slaughter the language in old westerns ("yer durn tootin' you young whippersnapper!"). So is it the pronunciation of "injins" that is offensive, or "indians"? I just never thought of "injuns" as slang as much as a regional "pronunciation". Kinda like my friends in the deep south who I often can't understand right away over the phone even though we're ostensibly speaking the same language...

I had just assumed "injins" was more a pronunciation in an "old western" way when saying indians rather than slang for the word 'Indians'. Interesting... Gotta read more...

Ironically I can hear the TV in the next room playing a commercial for "the best Indian gaming in town" as I type this. Pechanga Indian Casino (what they call it).

Just FWIW.

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Old 09-15-2009, 09:49 AM   #8
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Re: You're sensei, I'm sensei, Everyone's sensei

Quote:
Drew Gardner wrote: View Post
My eighth grade basketball coach said that to us once, only he said, "Indians." Your slang is disrespectful to the American Indian, therefore racist, therefore offensive to the Grand Dream of O'Sensei, therefore offensive to me.

I don't know whether your phrase contains hatred, ignorance, or both, but I highly recommend not using derogatory ethnic words unless spoken through a character in a fictional work.

Drew
Oh Lord, get over yourself.
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Old 09-15-2009, 11:13 AM   #9
Mike Sigman
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Re: You're sensei, I'm sensei, Everyone's sensei

Quote:
Drew Gardner wrote: View Post
My eighth grade basketball coach said that to us once, only he said, "Indians." Your slang is disrespectful to the American Indian, therefore racist, therefore offensive to the Grand Dream of O'Sensei, therefore offensive to me.
What your coach said to you last year shouldn't pre-occupy your mind this year. Move on. Widen your horizons.
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Old 09-15-2009, 11:43 AM   #10
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Re: "Indians"

Hhhmm... I have Native American (Blackfoot/ Niitsitapi) heritage and I didn't take it to be offensive at all. When I read it, I took it as he was being lighthearted and talking like they do in the old west movies. I am not saying talking that way is PC, but I don't think that he was trying to offend anyone with it.

~Look into the eyes of your opponent & steal his spirit.
~To be a good martial artist is to be good thief; if you want my knowledge, you must take it from me.
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Old 09-15-2009, 12:16 PM   #11
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Re: "Indians"

I always thought they (Indians) found it amusing we still use that term for them because of some white guy 500 years ago who didn't understand geography.

Last edited by allowedcloud : 09-15-2009 at 12:28 PM.
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Old 09-15-2009, 12:29 PM   #12
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: "Indians"

Quote:
Joshua Landin wrote: View Post
I always thought they (Native Americans) found it amusing we still use that term for them because of some white guy 500 years ago who didn't understand geography.
whadda ya mean by "white"? thought it was those of Hispanic culture that coined the term "Indian".

They don't think of themselves as "white". I also don't think of myself as Caucasian either since my heritage is not from the Caucas region, but on every EEO form that is the option I seem to have. Oh well.

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Old 09-15-2009, 12:49 PM   #13
Keith Larman
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Re: "Indians"

Whadda ya mean by Hispanic? South america? Spain? What?

And white... Sheesh, I am personally insulted by that. I'm more a pale-ish pink. Unless I get within a few feet of actual sunlight in which case I turn reddish. I have no idea how the Caucasus mountains got into the mix...

Heard a young lady erupt at a fast food place because someone asked if she was hispanic. She said she was a latina and her family was from Mexico. So she was a Mexican Latina. Her friend laughed and said "Girl, you were born in Lancaster..." That's when I decided I'm just going to nod a lot and never, ever ask about any ethnicity.

Except for with my daughter. I'm 1/4 Norwegian combined with a 1/4 from Wales and the rest -- a grab bag best I can tell. My wife is a "purebred" girl of Japanese heritage, but she's something between a 3rd and 4th generation American, so she's about as Japanese as I am Norwegian (read that -- not at all). Heck, her family was vastly more influenced by Hawaiian culture than Japanese.

Our daughter... Well... What the hell... I told her she can check anything she wants on forms including "who the hell knows".

On the rest of the discussion... Yeah, gotta say Hogan up above pretty much said what most are probably thinking...

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Old 09-15-2009, 01:08 PM   #14
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Re: "Indians"

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
whadda ya mean by "white"? thought it was those of Hispanic culture that coined the term "Indian".
Since when are Italians Hispanic?

Kentokuseisei
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Old 09-15-2009, 01:55 PM   #15
jss
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Re: "Indians"

Quote:
Kent Enfield wrote: View Post
Since when are Italians Hispanic?
You mean Genoese and not Italians, I presume?

And one nice anecdote about 'Hispanic':
Some years ago a U.S. company sent a consultant at their Belgian office to give a talk about the policies concerning minorities. During the Q&A one employee asked what he meant with the term 'minority'. The answer was "African-Americans, Hispanics, etc." To which the Belgian employee asked if this implied that all employees of the Spanish office were considered a 'minority'.

Last edited by jss : 09-15-2009 at 02:00 PM.
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Old 09-15-2009, 02:15 PM   #16
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Re: "Indians"

Quote:
Joshua Landin wrote: View Post
I always thought they (Indians) found it amusing we still use that term for them because of some white guy 500 years ago who didn't understand geography.
Now let's be fair here: shouldn't Chris be allowed to share the blame with the guy who named the river Indus?
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Old 09-15-2009, 02:28 PM   #17
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: "Indians"

I thought I was doing good when we adopted our daughter from China. Then when you talk to chinese people, they ask from what province and then that gets into a whole discussion about her ethnicity. You see there are 54 some odd distinct ethnic groups of chinese!

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Old 09-15-2009, 03:16 PM   #18
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Re: "Indians"

I am 1/4 native American Pequot/Huron. I really don't find it worth my time or energy to get offended over a slang term that has been around for hundreds of years.

My understanding is the title came about simply because when Columbus found the Americas he had been looking for a shorter trade route to to the West Indies. Thinking he had found it when he arrived in North America he called the people he found there Indians as would have been appropriate had he been where he thought he was.

But really what does it matter about race? We are all humans and therefore in the end we are the same.
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Old 09-15-2009, 03:20 PM   #19
Walter Martindale
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Re: "Indians"

I wonder what would happen if the original "offensive" phrase was reissued as "too many coaches, not enough players" or "too many generals, not enough privates" or... Am I going to draw the ire of offended referees or colonels?
Sigh..
W
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Old 09-15-2009, 03:21 PM   #20
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Re: "Indians"

When I filled my documents in Immigration in Dallas, I ticked the mark "Caucasian". The (afro-american) woman at the counter looked at me, checked my nationality and removed the "Caucasian" mark to tick "Hispanic". Now that infuriated me. I'm Spanish, not Hispanic. And I'm Caucasian, not Hispanic.

That was like 11 years ago. Now? I don't care. Only care about the idiocy of that woman and many more like her.

The young girl that Keith mentioned was, more probably, actually a Hispanic, not a Latina. It was mostly Spanish blood that was spreaded over the place, not that much Italian (or Genovese).

Kevin, I don't know you, but isn't it a fact that your "race" origins can be traced back to the Caucas? Maybe I'm very wrong, and I usually am .

What I'm sure about is that my wife is a purebreed Javanese .
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Old 09-15-2009, 03:21 PM   #21
Marc Abrams
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Re: "Indians"

I think that I am suffocating from PC-besity ! I for one, suggest that we eliminate all of these artificial classes of distinction and simply refer to people as I refer to myself "A- Hole". I learned this in my Adult Children of Adult Parents Therapy Group. I feel so much better now !

ON A MORE SERIOUS NOTE:

Drew:

Maybe you simply have too much time on your hands. You seem to be so overtly sensitive to puns that people make on this forum, while missing the larger picture. Before you start calling somebody a racist, why don't you take the time to meet and get to know the person first. Just a suggestion from a decidedly un-politically correct homo (I am being anti-gay now?) sapien.

Marc Abrams
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Old 09-15-2009, 03:31 PM   #22
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Re: "Indians"

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Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Just a suggestion from a decidedly un-politically correct homo (I am being anti-gay now?) sapien.
Since I consider pedantry an art: ever heard of speciesism?
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Old 09-15-2009, 03:47 PM   #23
Marc Abrams
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Re: "Indians"

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
Since I consider pedantry an art: ever heard of speciesism?
Joep:

Nah! I do not discriminate between species. I kill them, skin them, apply a nice dry rub (species specific of course!), grill them and eat them all equally!

Regards,

Marc Abrams
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Old 09-15-2009, 04:29 PM   #24
Keith Larman
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Re: "Indians"

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Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
The young girl that Keith mentioned was, more probably, actually a Hispanic, not a Latina. It was mostly Spanish blood that was spreaded over the place, not that much Italian (or Genovese)..
Yeah, I remember thinking at the time that there was probably no way for her to know if shew as latina *or* hispanic *depending* on how you choose to define those things. How far back do we go? How do we define these things?

I like Marc's classification system better...

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Old 09-15-2009, 04:30 PM   #25
Keith Larman
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Re: "Indians"

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Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Joep:

Nah! I do not discriminate between species. I kill them, skin them, apply a nice dry rub (species specific of course!), grill them and eat them all equally!

Regards,

Marc Abrams
If you ever meet Toby Threadgil, ask him about trying to order a steak at a Vegan Restaurant in Colorado...

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