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Old 02-21-2009, 01:35 PM   #1
gdandscompserv
 
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Tsuki Iriminage

Sure is hard for me to pull off with a punch or a jab that withdraws quickly. I find myself going on the offensive to get it to work. Thoughts?
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Old 02-21-2009, 02:23 PM   #2
David Maidment
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Re: Tsuki Iriminage

I've been having exactly the same problem with that recently. All that seems to help with me is simply not thinking about it, although half the time I preoccupy myself with not thinking about it, so it still goes wrong.
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Old 02-22-2009, 06:41 AM   #3
Amir Krause
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Re: Tsuki Iriminage

Practice makes perfect.

Lots of practice on the one hand, and realistic techniques (e.g. you can't take more steps then Uke) on the other. And you will find not only you can move in time, but you can actually sense before hand when the strike is about to come (until you face a more experienced striker compared to your abilities),

Amir
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Old 02-22-2009, 03:45 PM   #4
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Re: Tsuki Iriminage

When you say that you find yourself "going on the offensive", do you mean that you irimi super-deep so you can catch uke's movement at the shoulder, or do you mean an atemi that's forceful enough to change their direction entirely? Or do you mean that you pick them up, body slam them, and say, "did that feel right to you?" I usually find that I have to do one of the former two for tsuki-iriminage. Shooting all the way behind ( almost like a suwari technique to the hips, but at the shoulders) is nice when I can get it, and kind of slide down uke's striking arm as I'm turning them. But usually I have to "cheat" by whacking them on the nose a little...

If I were just a little faster...!

I am not an expert
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Old 02-22-2009, 07:09 PM   #5
phitruong
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Re: Tsuki Iriminage

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote: View Post
Sure is hard for me to pull off with a punch or a jab that withdraws quickly. I find myself going on the offensive to get it to work. Thoughts?
i kinda prefer this sort of iriminage myself. your mileage might varied. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRYJGTePCrY (the first two moves) pull or no pull, i am just coming through on my way to the buffet line.
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Old 09-10-2009, 08:52 PM   #6
tenshoibuki
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Re: Tsuki Iriminage

a punch witdraw or not doesnt matter the technique still can be apply cause we r moving in but the timing is crucial becoz uke might be dong other move after the punch been pulled back. This mean the technique should be applied soon after the punch have been evade by side entering with the tegatana. Dont focus on cutting to the shoulder but focus on hand in front of u n not open out. we usually open out when we try to cut the shoulder esepcially to ppl tht higher than us. Always know where is your hand strongest position.Refer to kamae hand.thts the best hand position
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Old 09-10-2009, 11:05 PM   #7
Janet Rosen
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Re: Tsuki Iriminage

If the strike or punch is being pulled back, I'd just follow it in and do the direct form of iriminage rather than the turning form.

Janet Rosen
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Old 09-10-2009, 11:26 PM   #8
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Tsuki Iriminage

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote: View Post
Sure is hard for me to pull off with a punch or a jab that withdraws quickly. I find myself going on the offensive to get it to work. Thoughts?
Ricky,
You shouldn't be touching the guys punching arm at all. His ability to withdraw it quickly is irrelevant. I don't even know what you mean by going "on the offensive" but if that works, it should tell you something... What doesn't work is clearly wrong.
- George

George S. Ledyard
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Old 09-10-2009, 11:50 PM   #9
Abasan
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Re: Tsuki Iriminage

I'm thinking like George. The arm that you typically use to meet uke's strike is not there as a block. Its an atemi that allows you to enter. If there's no hand to meet, your hand has direct access to uke's face.

Of course, it gets better when you start inviting uke's attack.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 09-11-2009, 09:57 AM   #10
Ketsan
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Re: Tsuki Iriminage

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote: View Post
Sure is hard for me to pull off with a punch or a jab that withdraws quickly. I find myself going on the offensive to get it to work. Thoughts?
Yeah you have to be quite offensively minded to do most of Aikido in my experience. My sparring experience changed my view point.

I am no longer defending myself from a guy punching me, I am taking him down and the punch is getting in the way and must be deflected for me to get in to do the throw.
If anything the punch is his attempt to prevent my irimi movement. This puts his punch up against my guard which is backed up by my momentum. This puts me in a rather favourable position.

That's how I think of it.
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Old 09-11-2009, 10:11 PM   #11
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: Tsuki Iriminage

My thought was and is; it's difficult to pull AikidoTM technique against off against a good striker.
Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
You shouldn't be touching the guys punching arm at all.
Agreed
Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
His ability to withdraw it quickly is irrelevant.
Perhaps at your level but I still find it more difficult than the traditional aikido hanging punch.
Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
I don't even know what you mean by going "on the offensive" but if that works, it should tell you something
Yeah, it does tell you a couple things; one, I suck. Two, regarding going on the offensive; I guess you can take a grappler out of grappling but you can't take the grappling out of a grappler.
Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
What doesn't work is clearly wrong.
No argument there.
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Old 09-11-2009, 10:25 PM   #12
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Tsuki Iriminage

Here's my Tsuki Irimi Nage.

http://www.aikidostudent.com/content/?p=570

While I think tsuki is a thrust, and not a jab or punch of any type, if you enter as the thrust is coming it won't matter if he quickly retracts his hand. You have changed the angle to your advantage.

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Old 09-11-2009, 11:06 PM   #13
Janet Rosen
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Re: Tsuki Iriminage

Chris, that's essentially what I was describing - if the punch is being pulled, just a matter of following it in.

Janet Rosen
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Old 09-15-2009, 04:33 PM   #14
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Tsuki Iriminage

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Here's my Tsuki Irimi Nage.

http://www.aikidostudent.com/content/?p=570

While I think tsuki is a thrust, and not a jab or punch of any type, if you enter as the thrust is coming it won't matter if he quickly retracts his hand. You have changed the angle to your advantage.
Quite nice... if you look at where Chris' attention is, it is always on the attacker's center and never on the punch itself. You can also see that he barely moves off the line, almost all his energy goes forward on the entry, another sign his attention is "inside" the attack.

If you are having trouble getting in, you are still letting the attack catch your attention. Any attempt to escape or to deal with the attack before you move in will mean you don't get in deep enough.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 09-15-2009, 05:15 PM   #15
rob_liberti
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Re: Tsuki Iriminage

I love these kinds of techniques.

There is that moment where someone cannot "unstep" - where judo folks love to sweep the leg.

When I thought that kind of movement was the only way possible, I used to resolve the iriminage problem by entering and turning/pivoting such that uke puts themselves in front of me (instead of trying to get behind them).

If the person can attack without committing weight like that, it's much more difficult. You have to be able to do aiki on contact. I'm still working on it.

Rob

old mcdojo had a form, aiki aiki do...
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Old 09-15-2009, 11:12 PM   #16
Suru
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Re: Tsuki Iriminage

Ledyard Sensei,

You seemed to contradict yourself by first saying the punching arm should not be touched, and then somewhat praising a video in which the arm is touched. I am confused.

Men tsuki sets up well for iriminage. Using the opposite, outer forearm in a spiraling, palm up to palm down motion to guide the punch away while entering, then using it to drop uke's arm immediately prior to tenkan is highly effective.

Drew
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