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Old 09-09-2009, 03:39 PM   #126
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Inefficiencies in the Aikido Training Method

It is akin to swimming, but the goal is not get swim as fast as you can, or as long as you can, or as deep as you can from one point to another. That is usually what swimming is all about.

No, what we do is akin swimming for the sake of perfecting the art of swimming. That is, how to do the perfect breast stroke and/or compare how one guys breast stroke is more efficient than the others, or that it looks good, feels better...all without fixating on the taboo subject that it is measured by how fast it gets you to the other edge of the pool, or how long it allows you to swim laps (endurance).

No, we prefer to discuss the breast stroke without those taboo measures of effectiveness, simply for the sake of doing it.

Or we will put attachments on the breast stroke and judge it about how it leads to a greater understanding of self, spirituality or significance in the greater world.

Could you imagine doing this with Swimming practice?

Now, swimming may be a form of meditation, and it may and does allow folks to experience being one with the water etc in touch with themselves and their relation to the earth.

That is fine, but I doubt you'd hear anyone talk in great detail about the breast stroke without establishing criteria for measuring effectiveness of how it simply propels you through the water to a desired quantifiable goal.

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Old 09-09-2009, 04:11 PM   #127
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Re: Inefficiencies in the Aikido Training Method

I get my effectiveness measured by those I train with because we are always testing each other.. at least that's the goal; and most who've been training at least a couple of years are very honest. It is a very productive way of training.

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Old 09-09-2009, 04:28 PM   #128
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Re: Inefficiencies in the Aikido Training Method

I agree Chuck. I think after a number of years of training we begin to recognize "what right should be".

Do you think it is more of a "fallout" or bi product of an extreme amount of trial and error based over the years of training and a summation of experience?

I personally think at one level, this is what mastery is all about, we have to keep this "loose" to allow for that exploration and personalization etc.

However, at another level, I think it is also necessary to codify or systemically define MoEs or evaluation criteria...correct?

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Old 09-09-2009, 05:45 PM   #129
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Re: Inefficiencies in the Aikido Training Method

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
...However, at another level, I think it is also necessary to codify or systemically define MoEs or evaluation criteria...correct?
I do agree, and fortunately, to the lament of some I may add, that's how my brain works and that of a good number of our seniors as well.

Don't tell anyone, but that's why I get paid the big bucks. I'm constantly evaluating and trying to better define what this experience of budo training is as well as what I see others do. There are a few people that I continually pick goodies from that add to my understanding. Thank goodness my teachers taught me to find good behaviors that fit the models they taught; and doubly thank goodness that my nature is to always look outside the box and develop as wide a view as possible. Who knows... one day I may widen my view enough to even see through your experience and that of many others that are worthwhile. I've also learned along the way what not to spend time on.

Best regards,

Chuck Clark
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Old 09-09-2009, 05:58 PM   #130
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Re: Inefficiencies in the Aikido Training Method

Thanks for the reply Chuck!

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Old 09-09-2009, 06:23 PM   #131
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Re: Inefficiencies in the Aikido Training Method

Quote:
How to get good without investment.
Looking for shortcuts.
how to get good with less investment.
Investing wisely, or as wise as I know how, is different -- which is what I think this thread is about.
Obviously....NONE of you are serious investors...
ROI dammit... ROI and RROI... There are no shortcuts. There is no return without some investment. There is no get rich quick scheme. It's how much you're willing to invest for what sort of return. Wisdom usually comes AFTER the fact, and not before.

BTW, I was merely commenting in response to Josh P, on the cons (no pun intended) of kata-based training method (KBTM) - which is how some seem to be equating with waza, which IMO is not the same thing. I have no emotional investment (forgive the pun) in kata (or waza) either way.

For the record, I have done kata in previous lives - the bastardized Shotokan versions from TKD, the original Chang Hon forms, the modernized TKD forms (Taeguek, Palgwe) - both of which were completely useless in terms of learning principles and devoid of any real combat applications. I also learnt a handful of KU/Yamaneryu kata - which I enjoyed immensely.

If people are able to learn from KBTM, then more power to them. For me, learning kata is back to front... and inefficient for my learning needs. But... if it works for some, and gels with their learning modalities, all's well and good. More power to them.

Since we're talking about efficiency (a quantitative measure) vs effectiveness (a qualitative measure).... it's not the number of hours you put in - more isn't necessarily "better". If it takes you 10000 hrs to do the same thing that someone else can do in 5000 hrs, then you're less efficient. OTOH, if someone is able produce something at a much higher level of quality than you can with the same level of effort, then you're not very effective.

And I would suggest, one needs both. The question remains, is the ATM inefficient? If not, why not? If so, why and what can be improved?

Ignatius
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Old 09-09-2009, 07:21 PM   #132
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Re: Inefficiencies in the Aikido Training Method

Ignatius wrote:

Quote:
And I would suggest, one needs both. The question remains, is the ATM inefficient? If not, why not? If so, why and what can be improved?
I am not sure this question can be answered universally completely, as much of what we do as I stated above in the swimming analogy is qualitative in nature in Aikido/Budo training.

As each person or groups of persons will place different values on quality, we will have different ideas and assessments about what is efficient.

I really like Zen in the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance which I think does a good job of playing with the idea of quality.

Mercedes Benz is usually considered a high quality care manufacturer in the business. That quality comes at a cost, and not everyone will value quality the same.

It is why we have lots of cars on the road with varying degrees of quality and price.

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Old 09-09-2009, 07:47 PM   #133
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Re: Inefficiencies in the Aikido Training Method

No offense, but here's a good example of why the "effectiveness measured by those I train with" is really not much of an indicator:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1y-nIwDhU7o#t=11s

It's simply easier to just set up basic criteria and go by those. Tohei understood that, hence his "ki tests", yet even those aren't perfect, given how many stooges and phonies have showed up in that arena (as in so many others), too. I think these things need to be more critically examined, although I differentiate between "demonstrations" and "try me out" situations.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 09-09-2009, 08:07 PM   #134
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Re: Inefficiencies in the Aikido Training Method

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I am not sure this question can be answered universally completely, as much of what we do as I stated above in the swimming analogy is qualitative in nature in Aikido/Budo training.
It was a rhetorical question my friend. It's a little bit of both. This thread happens to be dealing with the quantitative aspect of training, vis-a-vis, quantifiable inputs such as time and effort vs quantifiable results.

Quote:
As each person or groups of persons will place different values on quality, we will have different ideas and assessments about what is efficient.
Sure... quality is a subjective valuation. Whereas efficiency is directly measurable.

Quote:
It is why we have lots of cars on the road with varying degrees of quality and price.
Is it mutually exclusive? Why?

Personally, I don't care much for Mercs, BMWs, Lexus, or Audi; trucks... hmmmm... military Humvees ... are more my thang...

Ignatius
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Old 09-09-2009, 09:01 PM   #135
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Re: Inefficiencies in the Aikido Training Method

"Sure... quality is a subjective valuation. Whereas efficiency is directly measurable. "

Efficiencies to what end though?

Training with Mike Sigman, it was clear to me to what end based on the way he tested and evaluated. He also provided very direct feedback and methods that cut to a laser I thought on how you could get to that end.

Not to say it is not hard work, but I think the model and testing along the lines of what Mike proposed as far as IT is concerned is a VERY efficient model for that measure of quality as it relates to Aikido.

Albeit, it is but one part of the process, but what I personally consider to be a very important part.

But again, I certainly don't profess to put myself as judge over what it should or shouldn't be, or that Sigman's methods are the model of efficiency for everyone.

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Old 09-09-2009, 09:27 PM   #136
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Re: Inefficiencies in the Aikido Training Method

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Albeit, it is but one part of the process, but what I personally consider to be a very important part.
Well, I always look at it as "if you don't know the full alphabet, you can't claim to be an English professor". Many people can claim to be experts in, for instance, "internal skillz", but if they can't even demonstrate a simple groundpath, how can they claim to "have been teaching these skills for years", etc.? Yet, that happens all the time. I suggest that people stick to basic criteria before they get hornswoggled into believing that "so-and-so has great internal skills because he kicked my ass when I asked him a question".

FWIW

Mike
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Old 09-09-2009, 09:31 PM   #137
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Re: Inefficiencies in the Aikido Training Method

To what end efficiency? As Erick said... what are you trying to optimize. That is the question. And the answer is going to be different for everyone.

But to reiterate what Mike said... what is the basic criteria by which people determine efficiency, and the measures of efficiency? Those questions need to be addressed (individually) first I think.

Ignatius
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Old 09-09-2009, 09:33 PM   #138
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Re: Inefficiencies in the Aikido Training Method

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
Personally, I don't care much for Mercs, BMWs, Lexus, or Audi; trucks... hmmmm... military Humvees ... are more my thang...
Umm...I hate to break it to you but military HMMWV's are crap.
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Old 09-09-2009, 10:21 PM   #139
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Re: Inefficiencies in the Aikido Training Method

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote: View Post
Umm...I hate to break it to you but military HMMWV's are crap.
Does it matter that I don't give a rats? I still like 'em... pricey AND crap...

Ignatius
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Old 09-09-2009, 10:34 PM   #140
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Re: Inefficiencies in the Aikido Training Method

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
No offense, but here's a good example of why the "effectiveness measured by those I train with" is really not much of an indicator:
Ugh. A look at his other videos suggests why his students respond so strongly to his "ki":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Od75E2Vr1h4&NR=1

Michael Hacker
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Old 09-10-2009, 12:31 AM   #141
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Re: Inefficiencies in the Aikido Training Method

Mike and Michael, you realise though you're making judgements based on videos but not on first hand feel.

Mike you yourself have said before, the only way you can tell is by going at it and not by watching.

So please don't disparage Sensei Hakim until you've met him and 'tried' him out. Granted his students are vocal but you haven't seen all his students.

If you want I'll be pleased to arrange that for you. And if you don't want to waste the trip, we can always coincide it with the yearly trip Kobuta shihan makes to visit him.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 09-10-2009, 12:35 AM   #142
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Re: Inefficiencies in the Aikido Training Method

Btw, Michael... the vid you linked to is Goshin or application. He doesn't hurt his students in his classes so they don't respond to his aiki techniques because of fear of pain. You're assuming its because he can make it painful they throw themselves over for him.

The Goshin class is only for seniors wanting to explore that part of aikido/daitoryu knowledge. He doesn't need it. And Goshin is only done at the behest of his students. It isn't part of his curriculum.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 09-10-2009, 07:03 AM   #143
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Re: Inefficiencies in the Aikido Training Method

Quote:
Ahmad Abas wrote: View Post
<snip>
the only way you can tell is by going at it and not by watching.
Oh sure, that might've been the case...until someone posted that "goshin" video.

Let's go through a laundry list of items here:

1) shoulder usage? check

2) disconnection? check

3) overall lack of whole body "cohesiveness"? check

4) lack of initiation from lower body? check

I'd place money on Mike
a lot of money...

It's hard to see for someone that doesn't have some skill, and has to be felt. For those that already have some...it's a different story.

Not to be rude or anything, but just putting it out there like it is.
Anyone know a bookie?
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Old 09-10-2009, 07:43 AM   #144
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Re: Inefficiencies in the Aikido Training Method

Quote:
Ahmad Abas wrote: View Post
Mike and Michael, you realise though you're making judgements based on videos but not on first hand feel.
True, Ahmad, but there are some fairly obvious aspects we can analyse on the film. What, for instance, would be the force or energy that is making the last Uke in line act so wild? Can you name a force that would make me, for example, act like that even though I wasn't touching Nage? I'm very familiar with Ki and what it will do... it won't do that. If it was a real-world effect it needs a real world cause; if it's not a real-world effect, then the Uke is shilling for Nage, one way or another.

My 2 cents. Sorry for the OT comment. I'll be good from now on.

Mike
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Old 09-10-2009, 08:44 AM   #145
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Re: Inefficiencies in the Aikido Training Method

Quote:
Ahmad Abas wrote: View Post
Mike and Michael, you realise though you're making judgements based on videos but not on first hand feel.
Yep. Do you realize that you're judging my ability to make accurate judgements of what I see based on no first-hand experience of me or what I know?

Quote:
Mike you yourself have said before, the only way you can tell is by going at it and not by watching.
I disagree with this thought. Educated eyes are a very valuable tool and can teach you much.

Quote:
So please don't disparage Sensei Hakim until you've met him and 'tried' him out.
I don't think I "disparaged" him at all. I merely pointed out that he abuses his students (in my estimation). You don't have to hurt students and disrespect their bodies to practice "goshin."

I'm not exactly a newbie. I've had my hands on a lot of very senior people from different arts, both here in the US and in Japan.

I'm old. I have zero interest in "trying" someone out. I appreciate the offer, though.

Michael Hacker
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Old 09-10-2009, 08:45 AM   #146
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Re: Inefficiencies in the Aikido Training Method

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
True, Ahmad, but there are some fairly obvious aspects we can analyse on the film.
Thanks for "stealing" my thunder, Mr. Sigman. :-)

Michael Hacker
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Old 09-10-2009, 08:52 AM   #147
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Re: Inefficiencies in the Aikido Training Method

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaLmelkgyrw

What is causing this man's uke to respond the way they are?

Michael Hacker
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Old 09-10-2009, 09:46 AM   #148
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Re: Inefficiencies in the Aikido Training Method

Mike, nothing I say is going to make you believe otherwise because you've already versed in a particular form of Internal strength methodology. Who's to say that there's only 1 correct way for anything. For one thing, just take a look at the Systema guys. They won't be caught dead calling the stuff they do Internal Skills, but they do emphasise Beyond the Physical. Grounding? Nope, nothing in there but again you'll find it hard to put Vlad or Michael down on the ground. They don't practice CMA or Japanese Arts and so they're art doesn't look like what you're agreeable to. Doesn't mean that what they're doing doesn't work.

Same thing here Mike. Sensei Hakim does his thingey and its nothing at all like CMA where we're mostly talking about you you and you and less about the guy attacking you. Here, the energy is less about him and more about the people attacking him. Mike, I don't know what type of force Sensei was using for the last uke to act like he did. All I know is that he practices 7 characters of Aiki. That demo wasn't an emphasis on chushin (at least I don't think so) or musubi so it must be one of the 7. It's definitely not ateru, invite, dissolve, absorb, pulling or enveloping. So by elimination, I would say its entering ki.

Anyway at the risk of taking this further into a 'I say, you say' loop, here's another link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyZCl...eature=related showing a Silat guy from Semarang who wanted to feel this 'Aiki' thingey. Its his first time meeting sensei and I believe he was just asked to grab the hands and try not to fall. Towards the end you will see him trying to grab the hands and falling short... emm yeah I know its funny and looks fake, but it isn't. This link is not meant to 'cover' whatever deficiencies you see in the earlier links, its just to show that his Aiki works on non compliant ukes and we all know the staple of most 'ki' demos require a 'knowledgeable and agreeable' fellow.

Michael, I'm not trying to judge you. I was making a fairly straight forward statement. There's physical connectivity and there's spiritual connectivity. You can use your eyes for the former and it might be difficult for the latter. Since we are all big kids here and talking about Aiki and Ki isn't raising anyone's eyebrows, lets for a moment imagine that there is an element of ki that doesn't require physical transmission? So... yes it is true we need to have form in the beginning. Later maybe less so.

Anyway, that's the last I'll make out of this post. I'm not out to prove anything, I just have to tell it how it is that's all because we share what we know here and I know what he's capable of.

I appreciate you guys being candid but now that I've made my stand clear, what you guys think is really up to you. All this is my opinion only and my very limited knowledge and understanding. I know you guys have a lot of years behind you and I'll be the first to put up my hand to learn from you. But it won't be right if I don't at least try to clear the air.

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Old 09-10-2009, 09:55 AM   #149
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Re: Inefficiencies in the Aikido Training Method

Quote:
Ahmad Abas wrote: View Post
Anyway at the risk of taking this further into a 'I say, you say' loop, here's another link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyZCl...eature=related showing a Silat guy from Semarang who wanted to feel this 'Aiki' thingey.
Actually, I can explain everything he's doing in this video. It isn't "ki" or anything mystical. It's kuzushi. Good stuff.

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Old 09-10-2009, 10:04 AM   #150
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Re: Inefficiencies in the Aikido Training Method

Ahmad wrote:

Quote:
This link is not meant to 'cover' whatever deficiencies you see in the earlier links, its just to show that his Aiki works on non compliant ukes and we all know the staple of most 'ki' demos require a 'knowledgeable and agreeable' fellow
I can say with pretty good confidence based on that video that it would not work on me as I would not be very receptive to his spiritual ki forces, and frankly his physical forces, well I feel pretty confident about that too. Based on his posture when he had uke down, i have a pretty good idea about what I would have done in reaction and it was alot different than that uke.

I have been with the dim mak guys and have been told that I am not receptive which is why their stuff doesn't work on me. Apparently I am spiritually bankrupt and I block with negative ki and it will cause me long term health problems if I don't learn to release.

I identified this handicap about 10 years ago and I still struggle with it so I can understand why I might not be the best uke for someone that can use spiritual ki.

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