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Old 08-28-2009, 08:40 PM   #51
Abasan
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido

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OK, maybe make it a little simpler... let's take a really basic exercise like funekogi undo where you're expanding/contracting in one plane only... same idea? How about doing funekogi without moving at all? I.E. simply stand as you would as if in preparation to do funekogi, BUT without the forward/backward rowing motion? What would you be training then? How would you be training? What is it you're working on?

Then, if you want to talk about "testing", have someone hold your wrists and push gently, straight in with a constant force, whilst in that position. Can you bounce/push/throw them off - without moving? How much arm/shoulder are you engaging? Where is your power coming from? And how is that the same/different to basic kokyu-ho where you simply throw the uke up and back, or to the side?
Interesting. I've bounced ppl off if they come to grab me in that position using intent. But I can't do it if we start from static. In the first scenario, I 'intent' an atemi into his center. It is possible that attached to this intent I do move maybe 2-3mm to the front. Perhaps that is why I find it impossible to this from static without moving at all.

Can you tell me how you do this from static?
Also can you tell me if you can draw uke in without moving your hands inwards? I've been trying to achieve this too.

Both instances happen to be 2 of the 7 characters of aiki i'm trying to train. But its pretty hard with my teacher living in another country.

Last edited by akiy : 08-29-2009 at 10:04 AM. Reason: Fixed quote tag

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Old 08-28-2009, 09:43 PM   #52
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido

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Ahmad Abas wrote: View Post
Interesting. I've bounced ppl off if they come to grab me in that position using intent. But I can't do it if we start from static. In the first scenario, I 'intent' an atemi into his center. It is possible that attached to this intent I do move maybe 2-3mm to the front. Perhaps that is why I find it impossible to this from static without moving at all.

Can you tell me how you do this from static?
Also can you tell me if you can draw uke in without moving your hands inwards? I've been trying to achieve this too.
It's easy to cover up any inadequacies by moving, not so easy to do so from static.... so be prepared to not be able to do this, and not for a very long time, until you gain some conditioning. Having a good uke who understands what they are meant to do, and knowing how they can help you find it is a big plus.

If you look at it the other way, from big movement to small, a static position is simply the opposite of small to big. Does that help?

Intent is obviously involved, but it's not really the intent to atemi. It's more or less about using uke's own force against himself + a little of your own. After all, it IS a purely defensive martial art isn't it??? Newton's 1st, 2nd and 3rd laws ring any bells?

A pull is a push in the opposite direction. Where are the vector forces going in a "pull", in which you're not moving your hands? Where does the power come if you don't actually move your hands inwards?

Ignatius
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Old 08-29-2009, 12:24 PM   #53
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido

Well that's that. So the objective here is to start from static. Ok we can do that.

Now, atemi here is not what you would call a physical strike. What I mean by atemi here is that before contact, I intent to touch/take uke's center. Atemi of the mind if you will.

I don't see how I can do the bounce from funakogi undo without moving at all. Not unless I can generate energy from the mind alone to move uke back physically. The closest is ateru but even that requires movement on my part to begin with. The only difference is, it does not use physical strength really to move uke.

As for the pull, I think it would work out easier since uke is pushing in. The idea i'm trying to get here is to collapse/dissipate the energy thus uke's ki comes into that vacuum and results in him coming to you naturally without force.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 08-31-2009, 06:24 AM   #54
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido

Hi Ahmad,

Quote:
Also can you tell me if you can draw uke in without moving your hands inwards? I've been trying to achieve this too.
If uke is pushing and you want to break their power and draw them in, don't move the hands back. Move them up and to the side a bit, kind of like tracing an omega sign in the air with your hands. Breathing in sharply from the diapram can help as well. Do not pull your hands back. That only works for me if I am stronger than the other person.
Best,
Ron

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Old 08-31-2009, 06:58 AM   #55
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido

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Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
NP Ron... I'm not familiar with how the Doshinkan does it 10 different ways, but I would suspect it comes from DR (maybe?), and it'd be in the 10 basic directions? I assume that's done in seiza? In any case, wouldn't it be variations on the same thing? I.E. at a fundamental level, expanding the groundpath in *any* direction, and using the breath to hook up the "suit"?
Well, internally speaking (???) at least some of the same things should be happening. The first 3 are seated, from a push, a pull and a hold. I think for our purposes and simplicities sake, number 3 from a hold is the best.

Quote:
So, technically speaking, all those variations of kokyu-nage would essentially be variations of the same thing, would it not?
All of them have interesting things to do...both externally and internally...but the simplest is the best for our purposes I think. One of them is tenchinanage (6 or 7 I think)...so we're back to the beginning if we chose that one!

Quote:
OK, maybe make it a little simpler... let's take a really basic exercise like funekogi undo where you're expanding/contracting in one plane only... same idea? How about doing funekogi without moving at all? I.E. simply stand as you would as if in preparation to do funekogi, BUT without the forward/backward rowing motion? What would you be training then? How would you be training? What is it you're working on?
This is an excellent question, something I was working on just recently. Basically I was shifting the weight in coordination with bring power up from the ground and storing when the weight was on the back leg, and sending power out when the weight went to the front leg, coordinated with breath in on back leg, breath out on front leg. I shortened the hand movements to more or less match the smaller movement from back to front.

A LOT of power...too much in fact, I pull my psoas muscle where it connects in the hip area! That hurt...couldn't walk right for 3 or four days after ward. Too much power too soon...should be doing more conditioning work.

Quote:
Then, if you want to talk about "testing", have someone hold your wrists and push gently, straight in with a constant force, whilst in that position. Can you bounce/push/throw them off - without moving? How much arm/shoulder are you engaging? Where is your power coming from?
This time I spoke of was sans partner, and I was trying as best I could to source the power from the ground. I felt like the shoulder power was minimal, but I used way too much general tension (arms, too much tension in the legs). But the main power, though still "dirty" was from the ground.

Quote:
And how is that the same/different to basic kokyu-ho where you simply throw the uke up and back, or to the side?
I have bounced uke in the past using this, but I need to do more conditioning so I don't hurt myself...

Best,
Ron

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Old 08-31-2009, 02:05 PM   #56
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido

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Ahmad Abas wrote: View Post
Well that's that. So the objective here is to start from static. Ok we can do that.

Now, atemi here is not what you would call a physical strike. What I mean by atemi here is that before contact, I intent to touch/take uke's center. Atemi of the mind if you will.

I don't see how I can do the bounce from funakogi undo without moving at all. Not unless I can generate energy from the mind alone to move uke back physically. The closest is ateru but even that requires movement on my part to begin with. The only difference is, it does not use physical strength really to move uke.

As for the pull, I think it would work out easier since uke is pushing in. The idea i'm trying to get here is to collapse/dissipate the energy thus uke's ki comes into that vacuum and results in him coming to you naturally without force.
Stand facing a wall. Reach out with both hands, palm outboard, thumb down, find the place to stand where you can touch the fingertips to the wall at the limit of extension. Stand up straight at maximum reach. Now just turn your hands palm up. Your fingertips are now 3-4 inches from the wall still fully extended -- but shorter.

If you reverse this, while uke is holding your wrists, his arms do a similar torque conversion extension -- creating about 6-8 inches of cumulative displacement or -- as we like to call it-- kuzushi. My arm just rotated around its own longitudinal axis -- reversing its torsional shear stress. It is the same torque conversion in a punch -- atemi is the right mode of thinking. Also called asagao (in both extension and retraction). Variations and alternations abound but thems the basic mechanics of the upper body in aiki.

Now as with all things that involve mass and motion, if I have greater relative velocity in the motion I require less total movement of the mass for the same effect, and if I catch him zigging when I am zagging -- for a very small instant I am going many times faster relative to him (like two cars passing on the road head-on) than the fairly slow absolute rotation rate of my hand. If I do that on a right-angle plane to his action I have zero relative motion in his plane of reference but an arbitrarily large and uncompensated change in his plane of action. Juuji.

As with head-on cars, the maximum relative velocity is reached when we are located 90 degrees from one another relative to our common line of travel. When speaking of converting torque, however, cyclic rotation in timing (cyclic motion -- like funetori, or tekubi furi or furitama) is equivalent to linear or rotational movement in space. That maximum is when our two opposed rotations are 90 degrees relative to one another -- in space or in rhythm .

Additionally, it so happens that furitama is at the resonance frequency of the human body. Resonance causes sympathetic undamped vibrations throughout the body at the same amplitude of the input. This maximally uncompensated offset pulse at resonance finds ANY structurally vulnerable joint and induces a compensating rotation, creating a progressive buckle, and a collapse of the structure.

This interaction precisely done even at small amplitude results in very sharp torque reversal in him (even if very small in amplitude), and happens to trigger some nifty spinal reflex arcs in the limbs designed to protect the body from sudden uncontrolled torques that can cause such collapses. The action over-compensates the body's own recovery mechanism.

Rhythm is the lock to the body, and furitama is the key. The movements of cyclic shearing mechanisms like this-- if sharp and precise are exceedingly small -- kind of like the edge of the sword -- but the large and miniscule movements are the same though different in appearance.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 08-31-2009 at 02:08 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 08-31-2009, 02:37 PM   #57
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido

Hi Erik, I ***think*** I understand what you just said. The problem with both your answer and **mine** is that it depends on hand shapes / arm movement etc. and doesn't address the real core of bringing power up from the ground. I'm thinking about how to address that portion of the question, simply because I really want to try to understand some of the things I'm feeling when I do this.

It's not that our initial answers don't address the question. It's more that I want to go a layer deeper in the answer. Don't know that I will succeed though...

Best,
Ron

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Old 08-31-2009, 03:18 PM   #58
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido

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Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post

All of them have interesting things to do...both externally and internally...but the simplest is the best for our purposes I think. One of them is tenchinanage (6 or 7 I think)...so we're back to the beginning if we chose that one!

Ron
with tenchinage, you have to deal with both up and down at the same time, which is kinda hard for starting out. for starting out, either up or down would be ideal. easier with up than down. you can line up your body for dealing with the up better. with down, you need a decent "suit".

for the up part, start in hamni, right leg forward, not too deep. have someone push lightly to your right hip. open a path to the ground to from your right hip to your left foot with your mind. then have uke push your right shoulder and do the same thing. then push your right elbow. then right palm. you should not be moving, i.e. everything done "internally". so when uke grabs your right wrist, that same path should be there before the contact made. breath in and contract your stomach lightly so that a small tension built around your solar plexus and imagine your left hip joint and your right shoulder joints expand laterally and all your muscles expand longitudinally. the main point is to relax your body enough so that it can realign all the muscle and fascia tissues to do what need to be done. I'd say that's the starting point. at least, it's mine starting point. the first part is to absorb the "ki", then send it back; thus aiki. have not train my body for the send back yet; thus no aiki so far, only ai-arrrrggghhhh.....
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Old 08-31-2009, 04:50 PM   #59
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido

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Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Hi Erik, I ***think*** I understand what you just said. The problem with both your answer and **mine** is that it depends on hand shapes / arm movement etc. and doesn't address the real core of bringing power up from the ground. I'm thinking about how to address that portion of the question, simply because I really want to try to understand some of the things I'm feeling when I do this.
No, it doesn't actually, it can be done with a merest twitch oriented properly -- as Ikeda does it -- it is just that the twitch and the grosser motions are not different, they are mechanically the same -- using the same principles. The tendency to stick with "big" action is just a partial solution to the problem, but not inherently wrong. The rest is sensitivity, shape, coordination, increasing sharpness, diminished amplitude. Mine is much grosser than Ikeda, but not bad : "Every day, in every way, I am getting better and ..... "

The same thing applies -- the "windings" (I believe is the term some prefer -- I would say torsional moments or shear) -- and is equally present in the lower limbs and using the same essential mechanisms. Whereas the "upper cross" brings the scapulae together in opening asagao (or retraction that opens the hands out, turned up and wider, the closing asagao "dumps the cup" and extends the hands forward and turning over downward. Two other slightly varied limb actions -- "cutting" outward and "gathering" inward complete the foursome of fundamental core driven shear actions of the limbs. but in reality they are just more planar versions of asagao, cutting being opening and gathering being closing. Complementary actions of the lower limbs also exist and may be displayed in gross action by a reaping foot sweep (gathering) and a slashing yokogeri (cutting).

The key is understanding how the orientation of the wave of planar and spiral shears occurs (if you let it) and is what matters -- without regard to the gross motion of turning the arms over. So I could equally generate opening or closing asagao with out changing the position of the hands at all, though there are slightly different effects or uses in moving or not moving to do it. It is sometimes easier to know the shapes of the actions with gross movement to guide.

The latter two actions (cutting and gathering) are propagated to the arms and to the legs by the torsion shears of the torso as a whole around its vertical axis, and in the legs in addition by the lateral tilt of the pelvis. The first two actions -- opening and closing asagao in the upper body -- are propagated from the hara by control of the curvature of the lordosis curves of the spine in the sagittal plane and through the transition of the "upper cross" to the shoulder girdles oriented in the coronal plane, and converting the fore-aft shears into more lateral or spiral orientations.

This is one reason why the shoulders lifting is destabilizing because they can no longer perform these continuous torque conversions to and from the spine/torso when they become unstuck. As a result, the inputs become a pure toppling moment or a pure racking torsion at the top of the structure -- collapsing it. The same is true in the lower limb analog to the scapular upper cross in opening and closing (the tilt or thrust line of the pelvis fore and aft), and if it is unstuck or misaligned then its function in handling the torque shear conversion is also lost and a pure toppling moment or racking torsion is created at the waist level.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 08-31-2009 at 04:58 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 08-31-2009, 07:08 PM   #60
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido

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Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
I think for our purposes and simplicities sake, number 3 from a hold is the best....but the simplest is the best for our purposes I think. One of them is tenchinanage (6 or 7 I think)...so we're back to the beginning if we chose that one!
I have NO idea what any of these numbers mean Ron... If it makes it any easier, for everyone, forget about techniques altogether. It's not about the technique anyway.

Quote:
A LOT of power...too much in fact, I pull[ed] my psoas muscle where it connects in the hip area! That hurt...couldn't walk right for 3 or four days after ward. Too much power too soon...should be doing more conditioning work.... I felt like the shoulder power was minimal, but I used way too much general tension (arms, too much tension in the legs).
Just a general comment... as Phi mentioned... relaxing, or rather releasing tension is a key prerequisite. In ICMA, fang song means "to loosen", which in effect means, devoid of tension - like say, a rubber band, or a spring, at rest.

The other general comment is that your lower body, and legs especially, should be doing all of the work - your hands only convey the ground from your lower body, spine and "middle". IOW, uke should feel like they're pushing against the ground, through the contact at your wrists (or whichever part of your body they happen to be in contact with). And Newton's 3rd law being as such... you get the picture.... purity over power-ability.. and I don't mean that in the spiritual sense.

Mind you, nothing I've said here hasn't already been said before... in other threads, by others.

Ignatius
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Old 08-31-2009, 07:49 PM   #61
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido

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Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post

Just a general comment... as Phi mentioned... relaxing, or rather releasing tension is a key prerequisite. In ICMA, fang song means "to loosen", which in effect means, devoid of tension - like say, a rubber band, or a spring, at rest.
From Taijiquan: Through the Western Gate" by Rick Barrett

"The physical extension of a body part is preceded by its insubstantial correlate, called fang in Chinese. Fang is "reaching" with the mind, extending awareness before actually extending an arm or leg.
The substantial aspect of taiji power is derived from the body's tensegrity (song). It is easily triggered by pointing the index fingers and reaching (fang). Pointing and reaching establish the boundaries of the body's "tent". Relaxing into the structure that is formed keeps tense muscles from choking off the flow of qi."

David
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Old 08-31-2009, 08:04 PM   #62
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido

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David Skaggs wrote: View Post
From Taijiquan: Through the Western Gate" by Rick Barrett

"The physical extension of a body part is preceded by its insubstantial correlate, called fang in Chinese. Fang is "reaching" with the mind, extending awareness before actually extending an arm or leg.
The substantial aspect of taiji power is derived from the body's tensegrity (song). It is easily triggered by pointing the index fingers and reaching (fang). Pointing and reaching establish the boundaries of the body's "tent". Relaxing into the structure that is formed keeps tense muscles from choking off the flow of qi."
I think that anyone who has been a U.S. participant in "push hands tournaments" is automatically suspect in terms of real Taiji knowledge. If you don't believe me, go look at any U.S. "taiji tournament" and watch. I've never met a U.S. tournament 'winner' who had even basic jin skills (this'll bring a few personal attacks) ... that's why I quit going to tournaments.

Here's a traditional admonishment about fangsong, but I'll say up front that like most traditional admonishments it does no good unless you already know what they're talking about; essentially it's about how to hold the body:

(Order: head to toe)1. Lightly close the chin toward the chest to relax the
neck. (Xulngdngjin)

2. Naturally open the jaw, place the tongue behind the front teeth at the upperpalate, and keep the lips closed (and relax facial muscles, especially the brow).

3. Relax the diaphragm (Hnxiong) to make the upper chest empty(
Shngx) and have a lightly rounded upper back (Bbi).Note. In general, "make the upper chest empty and the legs full (Shngx xishi) as a combination" and "relax the chest and have a rounded upper back (Hnxiongbbei)" are commonly used key sentences.

4. Relax the waist (Sngyo) and keep straight line of the back and
thebody (Lishnzhongzhng).

5. Center the coccyx and sink it downward (Wiluzhngzhng).

6. Fold and relax your hip joint (Songku).

7. Make the legs full (Xishi).

8. Maintain stability in both feet on the ground (Chngn).

9. Inhale when raising the arms and exhale while hanging them in front of chest. Keep shoulders and elbows relaxed. (Chenjinzhuizhu)

10. Finally, breathe naturally (Zirnhx) and relax deeply (Song)

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-31-2009, 10:52 PM   #63
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido

"Stand facing a wall. Reach out with both hands, palm outboard, thumb down, find the place to stand where you can touch the fingertips to the wall at the limit of extension. Stand up straight at maximum reach. Now just turn your hands palm up. Your fingertips are now 3-4 inches from the wall still fully extended -- but shorter."

I must have a different build, cause no matter how I do this, my fingers are still touching the wall. And yes, I did it fully extended. Weird huh.

I like the resonance theory. Kinda subscribes to what Systema's wave power is like.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 09-01-2009, 12:16 AM   #64
eyrie
 
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido

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I think that anyone who has been a U.S. participant in "push hands tournaments" is automatically suspect in terms of real Taiji knowledge
Oh, never mind any real taiji knowledge... I like the way David was trying to tell me some round-eye's interpretation of what 放松 fang4 song1 is... ME.. a native Chinese-speaking Chinese!

FWIW, 放 means to release, to free, to let go... 松 means loose. Together, 放松 means "loosen, relax"... or rather literally, make loose. And yes, if you don't know WTF that means, then none of the traditional admonitions mean anything... as in, "Relax? Relax! What do you mean relax??!! I AM RELAXED!!"

The other (not so detailed) admonition I heard was to stand as if your queue was suspended from the ceiling, and your spine strung like a string of pearls - which I found helpful as an imagery of the contradiction.

Ignatius
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Old 09-01-2009, 05:02 AM   #65
Robert Cowham
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
6. Fold and relax your hip joint (Songku).
Can you expand on this particular step Mike? The other steps mean something to me (even if it is at best only a partial understanding ), but this ones doesn't. What does "fold your hip joint mean"?
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Old 09-01-2009, 07:10 AM   #66
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido

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Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
I have NO idea what any of these numbers mean Ron... If it makes it any easier, for everyone, forget about techniques altogether. It's not about the technique anyway.
Ah, yeah...that was my point.

Quote:
Just a general comment... as Phi mentioned... relaxing, or rather releasing tension is a key prerequisite. In ICMA, fang song means "to loosen", which in effect means, devoid of tension - like say, a rubber band, or a spring, at rest.

The other general comment is that your lower body, and legs especially, should be doing all of the work - your hands only convey the ground from your lower body, spine and "middle". IOW, uke should feel like they're pushing against the ground, through the contact at your wrists (or whichever part of your body they happen to be in contact with). And Newton's 3rd law being as such... you get the picture.... purity over power-ability.. and I don't mean that in the spiritual sense.

Mind you, nothing I've said here hasn't already been said before... in other threads, by others.
Completely agreed I'll let you know when I get there!
B,
R

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Old 09-01-2009, 07:49 AM   #67
Robert Cowham
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido

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Can you expand on this particular step Mike? The other steps mean something to me (even if it is at best only a partial understanding ), but this ones doesn't. What does "fold your hip joint mean"?
Perhaps I can rephrase this question into asking what more it means than allowing there to be a fold in the hip such that leg is not in the same line as the torso.
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Old 09-01-2009, 07:52 AM   #68
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido

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Ahmad Abas wrote: View Post
"Stand facing a wall. Reach out with both hands, palm outboard, thumb down, find the place to stand where you can touch the fingertips to the wall at the limit of extension. Stand up straight at maximum reach. Now just turn your hands palm up. Your fingertips are now 3-4 inches from the wall still fully extended -- but shorter."

I must have a different build, cause no matter how I do this, my fingers are still touching the wall. And yes, I did it fully extended. Weird huh.
If that happened -- then you let your center shift toward the wall. In other words you committed your weight to the wall, and when you altered the extension, your weight followed. if you punched in this mode kuzushi would not be far behind.

Which suggests that you likely did not notice that your weight shifted, since the three inches is well within the normal balance "orbit" and it can shift without your head position changing. That tells me that you may be primarily relying on your vestibular and visual cues for determining your own position more than your proprioceptive sensors in the structure of the body.

We do furitama regularly, but for a long while I had little explanation of why, exactly. After much puzzling out, however, I have concluded that it accomplishes two things. One, it attunes you to the nature of resonance in the body (yours and theirs) and two, it dials up greater sensitivity to changes in position of the structure as whole, in ways that allow you to sense changes in the opponents structure in the same way you sens them in your own (essentially, through changes in the resonance signal(which certain structural sense organs are very sensitive to, and for good reason).

This is the way I can tell a student when doing kokyu tanden ho when exactly I have compromised him at the wrist, the elbow the shoulder, the spine, and his center before much of anything has even moved. I can feel the limit of that extension into him in exactly the same way I feel the position of extension of a backscratcher as I reach to scratch my back, and before making contact.

When I extend into him the limit of that extension is sensible to me, because something stops at the current limit of my extension, and when I perform a further slight change of the potential for rotation, in our connection, I go around that and on to the next junction inward. This is true in both tension and compression.

Quote:
Ahmad Abas wrote: View Post
I like the resonance theory. Kinda ubscribes to what Systema's wave power is like.
Like the "rubber" pencil trick -- your eye senses the shifting center of rotations, in a rigid or relatively static medium. Waves only move a water particle locally, in a vertical circle. In a lever, shear is automatically created and wants to move the fulcrum perpendicularly out of the line of the lever arm (gyroscopic precession occurs for the same reason). In curling a handweight held at arms length, your muscles have to stablilize the elbow holding it upward or else the shear would force that center of rotation downward.

That's what this stuff is, forgetting about leverage entirely and just shifting the centers of rotations (and more subtly -- potential rotations or moment) around the body using shear.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 09-01-2009, 08:01 AM   #69
Mike Sigman
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido

Quote:
Robert Cowham wrote: View Post
Perhaps I can rephrase this question into asking what more it means than allowing there to be a fold in the hip such that leg is not in the same line as the torso.
Well, generally the admonitions are about how the body is relaxed but there are no "wrinkles" along the surfaces, so that it is hung as one unit; the hips and lower back are relaxed while the legs hold all the weight. If the hips are relaxed and the shoulders are relaxed but the overall 'connection' of the body is stretched (not tensed though) so that there are no 'wrinkles', the twisting one part of the body will spread lines of force easily to other parts of the body.

To give you an example, if you stretch your right arm out in front of you so that you give it that nikyo twist (as in the 4 wrist exercises) and the 'connection' is there (not too tight and yet no 'wrinkles' in the connection), the twist should easily convey up the arm over the back and to the kidney area on the right side; an even better relaxed connection will also be felt to the feet.

So the short answer as it refers to the hip is that the hip is relaxed and not under tension because the weight is sunk into the legs, not into the hips and lower-back, thus leaving the body relaxed and pliably connected.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 09-01-2009, 10:26 AM   #70
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido

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Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
A LOT of power...too much in fact, I pull my psoas muscle where it connects in the hip area! That hurt...couldn't walk right for 3 or four days after ward. Too much power too soon...should be doing more conditioning work.
Ron & others, Thanks for sharing. It is very interesting.
Did I ever tell you about the time when I was younger and stupider (yes! It is possible!) that I was working on kiai...trying to figure out what fundamentally gave the sound the intensity and volume...and I figured out a way to make it waaaay louder....overworked that....and I gave myself the weirdest hiccups/flutter..that lasted for 4 days? i thought I broke myself.. That's only one reason why i repeatedly ask about the dangers of internal training.
i guess ...these are all subtle effects that have to ride upon the changed body....with conditioning implicitly assumed...as you say.

I liked your post. anyhoo..

I have an quasi-unrelated question; is this thread about conditioning exercises for kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido? If not ; what again?

also;
Is it rude to publish related text/links/etc from other people off other websites? Especially from people here on these pages? For instance; this thread: "The internal 'how-to' thread" . There is a lot in the archive but I do not know how it is perceived by others..and if it is rude to datamine and pull relevant things (/quotes/posts/ideas/etc) out of their original context. What do you, Ron, or others think? For instance regarding kokyu development there are exercises and approaches outlined (i.e. elsewhere on the interweb). Mike? You've published lots of stuff germaine to this very topic...

also;
can anyone talk about the 'seam' that you are supposed to use to do agete? (Kokyu-ho). That term was used in another thread, but I thought it carried some neat connotations or possibilities. What is it you think the "seam" is between? i can't do it properly but had some thoughts (/research areas) .. not sure where to focus. Idears?
-between the in-&-out going external forces of uke
-between the circulating internal forces of uke (jamming & disrupting between uke's hara and their intent...stopping them from being able to 'push' (e.g. not being able to 'get behind' their own push...'in their body')
-between the skeletal alignment and the 'suit' of uke
-directly along joint coupled kokyu structure of uke-nage coupling? (but then how to do the 'lift' when uke forcefully pressing down? please don't say literally moving to the outside or along the periphery of uke's sphere of influence, is it(?) that's cheating..)
-absorbing the push inside your supported in-yo self; allowing the uke's push to go to your backside/inside you (i.e. inside the contradictory tensions); re-equilibrating yourself (i.e. jin & suit); to accomodate the force... and then issuing the force back outwards (i.e. inside uke to his center) as you and uke make a unit.. (words fail...even if the idea isn't wrong...)
??
-
Any clues from someone who can do it skillfully like Sagawa describes it? (or otherwise?)

just some more thoughts.
josh

Last edited by thisisnotreal : 09-01-2009 at 10:40 AM.
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Old 09-01-2009, 10:44 AM   #71
Abasan
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido

Hmm... no I'm not moving my center. I'm standing straight and centered. My spine and head is aligned and my diaphragm in flat. Weight does not shift and I've let it rest at the center of my soles. Perhaps I've got the arms positioning wrong.

After what you mentioned about me using visual clues I elected to close my eyes and try to sense a shift in weight. I did this because I know that I do have balance issues when standing on one leg with my eyes closed. So I believe that a lot of my balance does come from visual stimulus. But no, there's no change in weight even with my eyes closed.

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Old 09-01-2009, 11:22 AM   #72
Rob Watson
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido

Hi Erick,
Do the twist but do not move the upper arm and as the radius and ulna twist the hand moves ~1/2 inch from the wall. Does this still illustrate your point without the need to include the shoulder?
Thanks

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Old 09-01-2009, 02:04 PM   #73
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido

Another very relevant thread: "On Talking about Internal Training"
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Old 09-01-2009, 04:03 PM   #74
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido

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Ahmad Abas wrote: View Post
Hmm... no I'm not moving my center. I'm standing straight and centered. My spine and head is aligned and my diaphragm in flat. Weight does not shift and I've let it rest at the center of my soles. Perhaps I've got the arms positioning wrong.

After what you mentioned about me using visual clues I elected to close my eyes and try to sense a shift in weight. I did this because I know that I do have balance issues when standing on one leg with my eyes closed. So I believe that a lot of my balance does come from visual stimulus. But no, there's no change in weight even with my eyes closed.
Well, you are compensating somewhere in your structure. Find out where and you will have identified the source of a large part of whatever your concern may be, I would say.

Going from just palm up full extension to palm down full extension at this here computer screen in front of me gets me touching the screen from 2 1/2 inches out statically erect. In the past I have clipped a laser pointer to my shirt lapel to verify there was no fore-aft torso movement involved in the extension. That's why the straight punch twists in the same way, to release full structural extension of the limb. But the same is true of the whole structure.

An actuation of this structural mechanism allows expansive and contractive movement of the body without creating levers and the waste of energy and structure compensating for inherent shear . If sharply done and released it creates surprisingly fast movement of the limbs in a manner that is not "push/pull" (i.e. -- not leveraged).

It is also the manner of deep reflexive actions -- if your hand ever touched a hot stove you snatched it back -- like a weight on a wire -- by this precise mechanism, generated by a spinal reflex -- and the inverse of that is the infamous "no-inch" punch.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 09-01-2009, 04:27 PM   #75
Sy Labthavikul
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Re: Kokyu development for Aiki in Aikido

The only way I can get any appreciable change from going palm down to palm up is if I completely ignore the palm, and instead focus on fully extending w/ full internal rotation (engaging pectorals, lats, subscapularis rotator cuff muscle, etc.), in which case my thumb is now pointing down; to full extension with opposing full external rotation (engaging the teres minor and infraspinatus rotator cuff muscles, and some of the deltoid), in which case now the palm is up with my thumb pointing laterally. In other words, completely ignore the hand and lower arm, and focus on the upper arm, the humerus: rotate it inward fully, then rotate it outward fully.

Doing that, my shoulder joint does basically "suck" my arm back in several inches, but how does this apply to DEVELOPING kokyu? Being able to manipulate one's biomechanical anatomy intuitively is a REPERCUSSION of understanding kokyu, i think, but just forcing body parts to move in certain ways is putting the cart before the horse, in my opinion, and might actually retard progress. I know of one taichi practitioner who was always "tucking in the tail bone" and "rounding the upper back" but was using muscular tension in his abs and pecs to force his spine into compliance, and he ended up with lower back problems for a while.

Last edited by Sy Labthavikul : 09-01-2009 at 04:37 PM.


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