Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Supplies

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-28-2009, 11:56 AM   #26
NAF
Location: Norwalk, CT
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 5
Offline
Re: "Hidden in Plain Sight" Book Discussion

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
Spoiler? I was just talking about the ending - the Epilogue, called "Mada, Mada." It's just a fun progression to go thru the book and come to the epilogue, that I didn't want those who have been waiting for the book to miss the experience. I'm going to the post office this morning and will send out the last pre-ordered books. Most international orders, by report, have gone thru pretty quickly.

Some things are power-building without, perhaps, a calculated intention to do so. Don't mean to be crude here, but consider squat toilets - that requisite activity, done in that fashion, makes the hips flexible and legs stronger. On certain occasions (ahem), one spends a fairly long period of time immobile in that stressed position. In the third world, people squat effortlessly. In fact, one of the reasons that many believe that there were US prisoners of war held in SE Asia, after the end of that war, is an aerial photo of a group of men sitting cross-legged in a jungle clearing - the point being that no local people would dirty their clothes by sitting on the ground, they being able to squat for hours, with only the soles of the feet touching.

I think ukemi - in the sense of taking falls - is another example of this. I no more think that taking falls was <devised> as a body building exercise than iidori (working on one's knees) was <devised> as a hip-strengthening practice. But the latter, done properly, has that effect, and the former certainly makes one stronger and more resilient.

And, I would wager - I haven't done this yet, but it makes sense - that taking falls could be integrated with breathing to <specifically> work on some of the components of internal training, specifically what Mike Sigman calls "suit."

OH yeah, Janet, regarding the cover. Read the title again. Then look at the picture. Read the title. Look at the picture from another perspective. Read the . . .

Best
Ellis Amdur
Ellis-

If we take that logic out, doesnt that mean that guys like Johnny Bench and Yogi Berra who squatted forever in the Major Leagues would have lots of aiki power?
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2009, 12:18 PM   #27
Ellis Amdur
Location: Seattle
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 815
Offline
Re: "Hidden in Plain Sight" Book Discussion

No! that's not what I mean. The question was about ukemi as power building. <power> Chin-ups are power building. Many things - most things - in martial arts are power building without being related to internal training.
This is why some folks get very finicky about language. (Refer to some recent threads on this site where a few people have arbitrarily decided on their own definitions for terms like "internal strength."
There was a guy at the AIkikai Honbu named Yokoyama - a rich guy who owned a tire company. 7th dan. Not very skilled - but he had the status to tell people to do things and they would. We called him the "ukemi machine." Because he'd haze people, particularly foreigners. After Doshu's class - 6:30-7:30 in the morning, there was a half hour break before the next class. And he'd grab someone, usually non-Japanese, and have them take falls for him, non-stop, for 1/2 hour. he'd wave his arms, tai-sabaki and over you would go. And in mid-air, he'd add a little juice, and you'd slam down. Never hurtful - but hundreds of falls in rapid succession.
And the guys who "submitted" to him for a couple of months had incredible endurance and strong legs. And then, in the natural course of things, he'd invite you to take falls, and you'd grin and refuse and he'd find someone else.
The only thing I added in my post was a speculation that one could TURN anything - including taking falls - into a proper internal training, with the proper breathing and attention.
Best
Ellis Amdur

  Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2009, 01:47 PM   #28
Rob Watson
Location: CA
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 698
United_States
Offline
Re: "Hidden in Plain Sight" Book Discussion

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
It's probably readily apparent, but I really, really am having trouble figuring out what the cover has. Is that a hawk, phoenix, dragon? Sorry if it's easily recognized by others, but I just can't figure it out.
My guess: Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara Ryuou.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2009, 02:33 PM   #29
Alfonso
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 346
Offline
Re: "Hidden in Plain Sight" Book Discussion

aww man
I'll throw my guess. Dont click on the spoiler reveal if you dont want to know

[SPOILER]
heaven earth and a familiar beard in between
when held upside down,
(morihei ueshiba as heaven and earth united in man)
[/SPOILER]

i think that's f*n awesome

Alfonso Adriasola
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2009, 02:56 PM   #30
Ellis Amdur
Location: Seattle
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 815
Offline
Re: "Hidden in Plain Sight" Book Discussion

Well, I turned the book upside down for the first time, and I can see what you are "seeing." How about that!
Sort of illustrates how something simple and straightforward can go just about anywhere - and plausibly to boot!
E

  Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2009, 03:27 PM   #31
Alfonso
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 346
Offline
Re: "Hidden in Plain Sight" Book Discussion

you're kidding me.. serendipity?

damn , and made out of phoenix made of vapors too

your enterprise may have been taken over

ps .. like another angle of this of http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2075/...0f98a20e95.jpg

Last edited by Alfonso : 08-28-2009 at 03:34 PM. Reason: fun

Alfonso Adriasola
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2009, 04:19 PM   #32
Stormcrow34
Dojo: Yoseikan Budo
Location: Florida
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 96
United_States
Offline
Re: "Hidden in Plain Sight" Book Discussion

I looked at it again and this time, I thought I could make out a spiral...vaguely resembling yin-yang...
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2009, 05:58 PM   #33
crbateman
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
crbateman's Avatar
Location: Orlando, FL
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,446
Offline
Re: "Hidden in Plain Sight" Book Discussion

If we all pay as much attention to what's inside the book as we are to the cover, so much the better...
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2009, 06:26 PM   #34
Ellis Amdur
Location: Seattle
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 815
Offline
Re: "Hidden in Plain Sight" Book Discussion

A dragon - started as a pen drawing by Akiva Amdur, morphed into clouds by Tom Spiegelberg and merged with the sky/crows and then repeatedly tweaked, so it wasn't too prominent or too subdued.

Forgive me for pointing out the obvious - doesn't this resemble every discussion on the nature of aiki, etc.???

Anyway, call it an eagle, hawk, raptorlike being, yin-yang curve or upside down Ueshiba if you like - as long as you remember that it's all clouds

Best

  Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2009, 07:21 PM   #35
Stormcrow34
Dojo: Yoseikan Budo
Location: Florida
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 96
United_States
Offline
Re: "Hidden in Plain Sight" Book Discussion

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
A dragon - started as a pen drawing by Akiva Amdur, morphed into clouds by Tom Spiegelberg and merged with the sky/crows and then repeatedly tweaked, so it wasn't too prominent or too subdued.
Best
I knew it!

Hello Clark. Who says we aren't paying attention to whats in the book? Just out of curiosty, do you teach this stuff?
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2009, 09:52 PM   #36
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,933
Offline
Re: "Hidden in Plain Sight" Book Discussion

I guess the painter in me doesn't bother looking in abstract stuff for representations because when I paint abstract stuff.....anyhow,l like the ravens....and even moreso what I'm reading inside the covers....

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2009, 10:35 PM   #37
crbateman
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
crbateman's Avatar
Location: Orlando, FL
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,446
Offline
Re: "Hidden in Plain Sight" Book Discussion

Quote:
Michael Crowell wrote: View Post
Hello Clark. Who says we aren't paying attention to whats in the book? Just out of curiosty, do you teach this stuff?
You possibly missed the tongue-in-cheek tone of my post, not to mention the "winky" at the end. Calm...
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2009, 08:27 AM   #38
Stormcrow34
Dojo: Yoseikan Budo
Location: Florida
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 96
United_States
Offline
Re: "Hidden in Plain Sight" Book Discussion

Yes, I did miss that. One of the many drawbacks of this medium of communication.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2009, 11:27 AM   #39
crbateman
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
crbateman's Avatar
Location: Orlando, FL
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,446
Offline
Re: "Hidden in Plain Sight" Book Discussion

Quote:
Michael Crowell wrote: View Post
Yes, I did miss that. One of the many drawbacks of this medium of communication.
Yes, it is. But one can nonetheless glean some of the personalities (online personalities, anyway) and intentions of the participants here as one "hangs around" awhile. I've made some good friends here. You can, too.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2009, 12:20 PM   #40
Stormcrow34
Dojo: Yoseikan Budo
Location: Florida
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 96
United_States
Offline
Re: "Hidden in Plain Sight" Book Discussion

Quote:
Clark Bateman wrote: View Post
Yes, it is. But one can nonetheless glean some of the personalities (online personalities, anyway) and intentions of the participants here as one "hangs around" awhile. I've made some good friends here. You can, too.
Going back and reading my initial reply to you, I can see how someone (or you) may have mis-construed the intention of my response. The "tone" in my head while typing wasn't at all "snippy".

Anyway, I was serious in asking if you teach this stuff, since you're located in central Florida...
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2009, 12:53 PM   #41
Keith Larman
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,550
United_States
Offline
Re: "Hidden in Plain Sight" Book Discussion

I just finished the book -- enjoyed it immensely. Like I think it was Walker who commented elsewhere -- I really found the humanization (explication?) of Takeda's "nature" to be intensely interesting.

I can't do a review because quite frankly I don't know enough history myself to quibble/argue/discuss most of this stuff. So I have to take it at face value for the most part. What I would say is that I would love to sit down at the back table of a quiet smoke filled bar with Mr. Amdur and with Dr. Goldsbury and just listen to them discuss things back and forth. Between Dr. Goldsbury's incredible level of experience and his rigor as an academic combined with Mr. Amdur's fantastic experience and insights, well, that would be a heck of a conversation just to listen in on.

  Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2009, 01:49 PM   #42
crbateman
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
crbateman's Avatar
Location: Orlando, FL
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,446
Offline
Re: "Hidden in Plain Sight" Book Discussion

Quote:
Michael Crowell wrote: View Post
Anyway, I was serious in asking if you teach this stuff, since you're located in central Florida...
Not really, though sometimes in my own way. I prefer to remain a learner, and I enjoy doing the "ronin" thing. Some of the corridors in Aikido are too narrow for my taste.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2009, 02:13 PM   #43
jss
Location: Rotterdam
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 459
Netherlands
Offline
Re: "Hidden in Plain Sight" Book Discussion

The end of the final chapter (Circle, Square, Triangle: How to Be O-Sensei in Sixteen Easy Steps) asks some question quite similar to this post by Ellis in the "Guests in the House" thread:
Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
I agree with Mike and Mark that, truly, Ueshiba's aikido, at least, was always imbued with internal strength - and my opinion is that everyone else's should have been. That said, there are both other aspects of aikido and "other aikido's" that have developed. Just as aikido is not DR, many aikidos are not Ueshiba's, and many DR are not Takeda's. (There's a whole other story of concealment and HIPS there).
How I interpret that is that if one wants to do aikido without internal strength, there are plenty of aikido teachers to go to. If you want aikido with Ueshiba's kind of internal strength, it will be virtually impossible to find someone who can teach you the exact internal skills that he had. (Sure, Tohei, Shioda, etc. did aikido with internal skills, but they were different from Ueshiba's.) So you'll need to look outside of aikido for these skills. And if you really want to, you can then go and reverse engineer aikido. However, none of this is Ueshiba's aikido.

So basically what I read in the end of HIPS is: if you're interested in internal strength, why bother with aikido? Why not do what Ueshiba did, find someone who can teach you these skills and take it from there?
If you were drawn to aikido because of Ueshiba's incredible skills, it just might make more sense not to study aikido...
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2009, 02:22 PM   #44
gdandscompserv
 
gdandscompserv's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,214
United_States
Offline
Re: "Hidden in Plain Sight" Book Discussion

Quote:
Clark Bateman wrote: View Post
Not really, though sometimes in my own way. I prefer to remain a learner, and I enjoy doing the "ronin" thing. Some of the corridors in Aikido are too narrow for my taste.
Wow Clark, that's exactly how I feel as well.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2009, 03:13 PM   #45
crbateman
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
crbateman's Avatar
Location: Orlando, FL
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,446
Offline
Re: "Hidden in Plain Sight" Book Discussion

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote: View Post
Wow Clark, that's exactly how I feel as well.
Are you taking your meds??
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2009, 03:21 PM   #46
gdandscompserv
 
gdandscompserv's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,214
United_States
Offline
Re: "Hidden in Plain Sight" Book Discussion

Quote:
Clark Bateman wrote: View Post
Are you taking your meds??
Well no...I've been taking yours!
Sorry for the thread drift all. Back to our regularly scheduled programming.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2009, 04:27 PM   #47
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: "Hidden in Plain Sight" Book Discussion

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
How I interpret that is that if one wants to do aikido without internal strength, there are plenty of aikido teachers to go to. If you want aikido with Ueshiba's kind of internal strength, it will be virtually impossible to find someone who can teach you the exact internal skills that he had. (Sure, Tohei, Shioda, etc. did aikido with internal skills, but they were different from Ueshiba's.) So you'll need to look outside of aikido for these skills. And if you really want to, you can then go and reverse engineer aikido. However, none of this is Ueshiba's aikido.

So basically what I read in the end of HIPS is: if you're interested in internal strength, why bother with aikido? Why not do what Ueshiba did, find someone who can teach you these skills and take it from there?
If you were drawn to aikido because of Ueshiba's incredible skills, it just might make more sense not to study aikido...
Hey!... that's what happened to me! Hopefully the next generation will have the wider option of seeking Ueshiba's concepts of ai-ki within a broader availability within the art, without having to look outside the art.

Best.

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2009, 05:34 PM   #48
Ellis Amdur
Location: Seattle
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 815
Offline
Re: "Hidden in Plain Sight" Book Discussion

To be absolutely clear, Joep, you are close (and this is aside from what my personal interests are). You write:
"if you're interested in internal strength, why bother with aikido?" -- UNLESS you love aikido for itself (as a movement system, as an art, as a spiritual training, as a community, as a martial training as it is, etc.). But if your primary fascination is the internal training, then, yes, even in the best of circumstances, aikido is a circuitous route. UNLESS the particular nuances of internal training you are interested in are most directly accessible in the circuitous path of aikido. Which begs all sorts of questions I tried to address in that chapter.

Ellis Amdur

  Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2009, 07:03 PM   #49
Peter Goldsbury
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Peter Goldsbury's Avatar
Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,997
Japan
Online
Re: "Hidden in Plain Sight" Book Discussion

In connection with the final chapter (Chapter 6, pp. 211-230), I recall two private conversations that took place during the last few years.

One was with Fumiaki Shishida over dinner. (Prof Shishida had just previously given a lecture at Hiroshima University about Awa Kenzo, Ueshiba Morihei and Tomiki Kenji.) The topic was the transition of aikido from its its prewar/wartime state to its (future) postwar state and the main issue occupying the minds of Kisshomaru Ueshiba, Koichi Tohei, Kisaburo Osawa, Kenji Tomiki and Shigenobu Okumura was: What to do about O Sensei. It was obvious that there could be no return to the old prewar elitist kotodama stuff, heavily tinged with the values of ultranationalism espoused in the Kokutai no Hongi (banned by the SCAP). So aikido had to be presented as a peaceful art, that anyone could practice. Otherwise it would not survive. Thus choices were made, but I do not think there was ever a reasoned exploration of the consequences of these choices. The issue was how to involve O Sensei, holed up in Iwama with his myriad deities and word spirits, in this presentation. I think there are many reasons for the cultural, intellectual and emotional gap between Kisshomaru and his father.

The other conversation was one of many with Hiroshi Tada. Tada Sensei discounted the 1955 seminar (mentioned on p. 214), but talked of the regular meetings held in the dojo. Clearly, further investigation is necessary.

P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Hiroshima, Japan
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2009, 07:22 PM   #50
Bob Blackburn
Location: PA
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 71
United_States
Offline
Re: "Hidden in Plain Sight" Book Discussion

I got my copy today. It may be a late night.

  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Budo Bear Patterns - Sewing pattern for Women's (and Men's) dogi.



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Ellis Amdur's "Hidden in Plain Sight" Prepublication Sale AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 64 08-27-2009 01:15 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 14 Peter Goldsbury Columns 38 07-31-2009 11:19 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 12 Peter Goldsbury Columns 32 05-16-2009 06:05 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 10 Peter Goldsbury Columns 200 02-04-2009 06:45 AM
New Book Review: Fudebakudo: The Way of the Exploding Pen AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 1 11-12-2003 02:45 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:29 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate