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Old 08-24-2009, 06:32 PM   #26
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Disarmament against non-traditional weapons?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MRh580exNo

situationally dependent, but what is interesting is that the store clerk closes distance and continues to press the fight to the robber.

Again, it is situational, but I do find it interesting that the store keeper pressed the fight and it made a difference.

What is important I think is establishing dominance and keeping it. Think OODA.

I was kinda busting on Filipino knife fighting earlier. Sorry, bout that, but one thing they do well is teach the principles of OODA and they are wonderful at staying ahead of the loop. Fricking incredible if you ask me. This is important.

What I don't like is from a purely practical standpoint which how they fight, I simply don't subscribe to for my environment/situations.

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Old 08-24-2009, 08:13 PM   #27
Marc Abrams
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Re: Disarmament against non-traditional weapons?

Kevin:

I think that it is important to point out that both of those video clips show perp.'s who are not trained knife fighters. A trained knife fighter would have done things differently. Part of that reality is good for the "good guys" but need to be pointed out. The best part of good training should be trying to learn how to work against a really well-trained attack, rather than fending off those who in the long run, typically fail the "Darwin Test."

Regards,

Marc

ps.- if you find yourself in the area in Oct., my offer still stands!
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Old 08-24-2009, 08:21 PM   #28
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Re: Disarmament against non-traditional weapons?

agree Marc. Thanks for the offer. I have on last "school" that is tentativeI have to go to down in Norfolk in October, so not sure if I can make it yet.

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Old 08-24-2009, 08:55 PM   #29
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Re: Disarmament against non-traditional weapons?

Don't worry about disparaging me. If I'm on the wrong track, then please continue to speak up.

I suppose I was just looking for someone who could handle a knife attack in a way that was not the "big over the head" shomen, big looping yokomen, or step in straight thrust.

I cannot yet move that fast with intent - heck I can barely move slowly with intent! My goal is to be able to move with intent that fast or faster.

If my strategy is flawed, I'm all for learning. I suppose I just was commenting about how far my mental process had gone regarding non-symbolic attacks and that I never consider non-traditional weapons.

Thanks,
Rob

old mcdojo had a form, aiki aiki do...
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Old 08-24-2009, 08:57 PM   #30
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Re: Disarmament against non-traditional weapons?

Rob, I think if you apply what you know about internal skills and aikido with a knife you will be on the right track with a little tactics.

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Old 08-25-2009, 07:15 AM   #31
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Re: Disarmament against non-traditional weapons?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
Don't worry about disparaging me. If I'm on the wrong track, then please continue to speak up.

I suppose I was just looking for someone who could handle a knife attack in a way that was not the "big over the head" shomen, big looping yokomen, or step in straight thrust.

I cannot yet move that fast with intent - heck I can barely move slowly with intent! My goal is to be able to move with intent that fast or faster.

If my strategy is flawed, I'm all for learning. I suppose I just was commenting about how far my mental process had gone regarding non-symbolic attacks and that I never consider non-traditional weapons.

Thanks,
Rob
Rob:

I re-read this thread and could not find anyone seeking to disparage you. Arts from Indonesia, the Philippines and other related island arts, along with Systema have some pretty awesome knife fighting stuff. Kevin has an obvious preference for the more definitive knife stuff than the more refined (I call it "carving the turkey") knife work such as in Kali, based upon his experiences.

In My Opinion: The handling a good knife person without a weapon is akin to the Holy Grail. Sounds Great, Would Love To Have It, But Come On Folks.... Who in their right mind would like to face a knife fighter without a weapon of equal or greater level of lethality? Practicing for that is fun, reality is a situation I would never like to face in my lifetime (which would likely be shortened, or marred by serious injury).

Regards,

Marc Abrams

ps.- thanks for all of the help at Dan's seminar
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Old 08-25-2009, 07:57 AM   #32
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Re: Disarmament against non-traditional weapons?

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Who in their right mind would like to face a knife fighter without a weapon of equal or greater level of lethality?
But we're martial artists, so our hands are deadly weapons! And since there's only one kind of lethalality, the one that kills ya...
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Old 08-25-2009, 07:59 AM   #33
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Re: Disarmament against non-traditional weapons?

Marc wrote:

Quote:
I re-read this thread and could not find anyone seeking to disparage you. Arts from Indonesia, the Philippines and other related island arts, along with Systema have some pretty awesome knife fighting stuff. Kevin has an obvious preference for the more definitive knife stuff than the more refined (I call it "carving the turkey") knife work such as in Kali, based upon his experiences.
Training Methodology is interesting to observe. What I mean is that if you focus on "effective endstates to various scenarios", and stay true to that focus, what you end up with is a pretty basic conclusion about parity, fighting, and the utilization of weapons, and the variables that come into play.

The fighting, while skill is involved, is pretty basic, and you focus on basically getting ahead of the OODA loop. Being agressive, decisvie, in shape, lucky, having some basic skills...all make up the package of a successful fighter.

When this gets reversed engineered into something that we want to turn into an art or practice to study over and over, day after day...well that is where all the other stuff starts getting added into the practice.

It goes something like this. "Well what do we need to isolate knife skills?" well this slash, this cut, this parry". then a kata gets developed so we have something to practice every day.

How about body skills? Well "This" is important...Oh, yeah so is "THAT". so then we start developing a kata based on that.

Before you know it, you've developed a whole "system" for training each skill in isolation of the other....all good stuff, but what do you have now?

Nothing that resembles what actually needs to happen in a fight. The reverse engineering unfortunately does not always equate back into synthesis, and because of the nature of edged weapons being dangerous...it is hard to grasp the reality of the application!

Besides if you tried to package and sell yourself as a guru or sensei of a particular "Style" etc...it gets old and hard to do this any other way if you don't have a robust and comprehensive system that allows you to progress and measure folks.

Then you also get into the whole warrior culture and heritage issues that surround this stuff. Tribal warrior cultures are important and need to be considered.

Again, nothing wrong with any of this, cept when you are no shit looking at what you really need to know on the street or in tactical use.

Unfortunately, all of us are subject to dissonance, concepts, ideas, notions etc of what fighting "should" be, or what we WANT it to be, and we all want to imagine ourselves successful or if not successful, that in someway we can train to mitigate those risk through superior training of technical skills.

Couple that all together and I think you end up with what we see out there in the martial arts community being practiced.

In reality, most of us would be better at learning how to project ourselves as a wolf and not a sheep.

Or if we are really concerned about knife attacks, then why don't we do something like wear some modern day chain mail armor or kevlar shirt? Wouldn't that be money better spent and probably do a better job at preventing slash wounds in an attack? I think so, but no, we will put that tactical folder in our pocket and "hope" that we never have to use it, but if we do, "hope" that our training is "good enough". I find the whole thing kinda interesting how we would probably think it silly to walk around in a chain mail jersey, but still spend $1000 of dollars on "knife" training for self defense, yet that does not seem silly when you look at it from a basic logic argument?

Not sure if my point is clear, but when you strip away the emotional issues from the reality, to me, it seems we as humans do alot of stuff to placate our irrational fears with irrational means, when there are many more common sense ways to approach and mitgate the problem.

Quote:
In My Opinion: The handling a good knife person without a weapon is akin to the Holy Grail. Sounds Great, Would Love To Have It, But Come On Folks.... Who in their right mind would like to face a knife fighter without a weapon of equal or greater level of lethality?
Yea Marc, I agree, with the above. We as humans are not as rational or possess the common sense that we like to think we have...myself included!

Hope this makes sense...just rattling it off at work partly distracted.

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Old 08-25-2009, 08:51 AM   #34
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Re: Disarmament against non-traditional weapons?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Marc wrote:

Training Methodology is interesting to observe. What I mean is that if you focus on "effective endstates to various scenarios", and stay true to that focus, what you end up with is a pretty basic conclusion about parity, fighting, and the utilization of weapons, and the variables that come into play.

The fighting, while skill is involved, is pretty basic, and you focus on basically getting ahead of the OODA loop. Being agressive, decisvie, in shape, lucky, having some basic skills...all make up the package of a successful fighter.

When this gets reversed engineered into something that we want to turn into an art or practice to study over and over, day after day...well that is where all the other stuff starts getting added into the practice.

It goes something like this. "Well what do we need to isolate knife skills?" well this slash, this cut, this parry". then a kata gets developed so we have something to practice every day.

How about body skills? Well "This" is important...Oh, yeah so is "THAT". so then we start developing a kata based on that.

Before you know it, you've developed a whole "system" for training each skill in isolation of the other....all good stuff, but what do you have now?

Nothing that resembles what actually needs to happen in a fight. The reverse engineering unfortunately does not always equate back into synthesis, and because of the nature of edged weapons being dangerous...it is hard to grasp the reality of the application!

Besides if you tried to package and sell yourself as a guru or sensei of a particular "Style" etc...it gets old and hard to do this any other way if you don't have a robust and comprehensive system that allows you to progress and measure folks.

Then you also get into the whole warrior culture and heritage issues that surround this stuff. Tribal warrior cultures are important and need to be considered.

Again, nothing wrong with any of this, cept when you are no shit looking at what you really need to know on the street or in tactical use.

Unfortunately, all of us are subject to dissonance, concepts, ideas, notions etc of what fighting "should" be, or what we WANT it to be, and we all want to imagine ourselves successful or if not successful, that in someway we can train to mitigate those risk through superior training of technical skills.

Couple that all together and I think you end up with what we see out there in the martial arts community being practiced.

In reality, most of us would be better at learning how to project ourselves as a wolf and not a sheep.

Or if we are really concerned about knife attacks, then why don't we do something like wear some modern day chain mail armor or kevlar shirt? Wouldn't that be money better spent and probably do a better job at preventing slash wounds in an attack? I think so, but no, we will put that tactical folder in our pocket and "hope" that we never have to use it, but if we do, "hope" that our training is "good enough". I find the whole thing kinda interesting how we would probably think it silly to walk around in a chain mail jersey, but still spend $1000 of dollars on "knife" training for self defense, yet that does not seem silly when you look at it from a basic logic argument?

Not sure if my point is clear, but when you strip away the emotional issues from the reality, to me, it seems we as humans do alot of stuff to placate our irrational fears with irrational means, when there are many more common sense ways to approach and mitgate the problem.

Yea Marc, I agree, with the above. We as humans are not as rational or possess the common sense that we like to think we have...myself included!

Hope this makes sense...just rattling it off at work partly distracted.
Kevin:

You and I are totally in sync. That is why people call that whole arena "Marital ARTS." In absence of the Darwinian aspects of fighting schools existing (or ceasing to exist) in times of active conflicts, people have a lot of time on their hands and the reverse engineering in the pursuit of a higher "art form" typically takes place. It never ceases to amaze me how stunned "martial artists" are when they believe that they are "warriors" and end-up finding out what utter fools they really are at the end of instigating something with a good street fighter and getting their asses whooped something fierce.

I think that one of the great philosophical lessons of Aikido is that the fortress wall that you build to keep people out, also lock you in. We are far better off connecting with people in a positive and accepting manner, rather than defend against our irrational and ignorant thoughts. I look at it as being secure enough with who I am so as to reach out and try and build bridges of understanding with those around me.

Regards,

Marc Abrams
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Old 08-25-2009, 08:59 AM   #35
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Re: Disarmament against non-traditional weapons?

Well said Marc. I wish I were that succinct with words!

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Old 08-25-2009, 09:41 AM   #36
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Re: Disarmament against non-traditional weapons?

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Kevin:
... people have a lot of time on their hands and the reverse engineering in the pursuit of a higher "art form" typically takes place. It never ceases to amaze me how stunned "martial artists" are when they believe that they are "warriors" and end-up finding out what utter fools they really are at the end of instigating something with a good street fighter and getting their asses whooped something fierce.

I think that one of the great philosophical lessons of Aikido is that the fortress wall that you build to keep people out, also lock you in. We are far better off connecting with people in a positive and accepting manner, rather than defend against our irrational and ignorant thoughts. I look at it as being secure enough with who I am so as to reach out and try and build bridges of understanding with those around me.

Regards,

Marc Abrams
Good points all around.
It's a self-made and reinforced behavior though, mostly based on fear not just lack of information. The tacit underlying agreement remains:
a) that the information offered is of a physical contact and dominance method
b) in the end it was not tested-by choice.
And while it plagues the martial arts it doesn't plague all martial "artists."
The opposite condition exists as well; men who started out fighting and grappling and later went into the "arts" and learned some interesting things about movement.

As a state of mind-there is a fix for the artist who wants to be a fighter (not all do) -go fight. In lue of that, as least get out and meet people who know how to fight and how to do arts well. They're certainly out there to find and train with. They can at least steer you away from M.A.B.S. (martial art bull__t) contained within many arts and also keep you focused on the many viable things to be found within every art.
It's not reverse engineering, it's a reduction of negatives toward a more viable conclusion-were you so inclined.

Rob
Those were my comments, but not about you but about some of the approaches in the Indonesian fighting arts and the people I have met who practice that stuff, V the more direct methods to getting the job done.
Too many people "sword fight" and "knife fight" in their minds-eye and it is displayed in all that they do instead of just putting a man down with the least risk possible. There are also other methods-not from arts-but from the wrong side of the tracks, that were oddly echoed and consistent with my later dealings with certain military folks.
The more things change, the more....
Cheers
Dan
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Old 08-25-2009, 10:07 AM   #37
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Re: Disarmament against non-traditional weapons?

My only take on this is if you're fighting a good knife fighter unarmed, then try to get a weapon ASAP. magazine, book, belt, keys... will even the odds. Assuming you know knife fighting.

The next bet is try to minimise the injury so that no arteries and ligaments are cut. But you will get cut.

Silat, Escrima and the ilk don't use weapons like the japanese think people do. So... I'm sure a lot of people here will disagree, but I'm going to say it anyway. Aikido techniques will get you killed. Aikido principles though... that's a different matter.

Closing the distance is not something I would do. With the sword yes but not against a knife.

However, since we're talking about weapons here... I wonder if anyone's done anything against chains, whips and the like. I like to see someone do it unarmed. :P

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 08-25-2009, 11:21 AM   #38
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Re: Disarmament against non-traditional weapons?

Hey Ahmad!

My opinion is that it is not quite this simple. I don't think you can reverse engineer the process into technical phases of a fight per se.

I hate to keep preaching the OODA mantra, but...

What you do depends on many variables obviously. Who has what weapon, availability of weapons, strength, size, conditioning etc.

However, if we are going to model the fight, I think it is best to use OODA.

i.e if he has the jump on you and you are behind in the loop, does it really matter if you have access to a weapon or not? You could have a gun in hand and it would be completely useless. or lets say you do shoot him, if he had the jump on you and he cut you up, do you really care if you killed him if you are mortally wounded?

So, what is more important? getting to the weapon or getting ahead of the loop and owning the iniative? What is the more valuable skill/tool to have?

Doesn't really matter what the weapon is, it is an extension of his body. Of course, some weapons do more damage than others and have different ranges, but the fact remains, if he is ahead of your OODA loop doesn't really matter what weapon he has, he is going to beat you with it and kill you if you can't get ahead of his loop.

So, I think in deciding what to do we need to develop our scenarios/problem sets to work on solving this vital issue of the fight first.

Quote:
The next bet is try to minimise the injury so that no arteries and ligaments are cut. But you will get cut.
How about if you started off with this first? It goes back to what I was saying earlier. There are some very good aramid/kevlar clothing out there (anti-slash) that are actually very stylish. So, if I mitigated slashes and damage from them and now I only have to worry about stabs, how does this improve my odds to kick the loop over in my favor?

I would submit that $200.00 worth of anti-slash underwear would improve your chances to beat the odds of the fight over you owning a knife and deploying it. Remember, it ain't necessarily the damage you do to him, it is the damage that is NOT done to you that may matter in the long run.

Running from a knife, but not from a sword? Well again, I wouldn't make an axiom for either. I think it depends. Again, if you are behind in the OODA process..your goal is to get ahead. Running may solve it for you, it may not. Lots of factors to consider. I have found that if I am truely behind, that running has already been taken away from me and at some point I have to turn and deal with the situation. Again, to me weapon is immaterial when looking at it from this perspective.

A different way of thinking for sure than most folks are used to doing, but I think gets more to the core of what is the real issue of fighting.

As far as other weapons, I like to do Pugil Stick training. Cept I do it differently than most in the military. The Pugil paradigm is to have two fighters suit up with the helmets and sticks. Most fighters will immediately stalk each other out and jab from the outside and attempt to overpower and thus get ahead of the loop. That certainly is a paradigm and 99.9%, no 100% of the time everyone fights from what they consider to be the rules.

I get up and they say GO. I chuck my stick at the guy, walk up grab his stick, clinch him, drop him to the ground, take it away from him and beat him with his own stick. i.e. I close the loop very quickly before he has time to process it. Works everytime.

Every time I get accused of cheating! yea.....cheating. LOL!

After that, I never seem to have a problem with my students fighting with pugil sticks, but they do get in trouble with the other instructors cause it is not playing by the rules! Oh well!

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Old 08-25-2009, 11:58 AM   #39
Marc Abrams
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Re: Disarmament against non-traditional weapons?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Good points all around.
It's a self-made and reinforced behavior though, mostly based on fear not just lack of information. The tacit underlying agreement remains:
a) that the information offered is of a physical contact and dominance method
b) in the end it was not tested-by choice.
And while it plagues the martial arts it doesn't plague all martial "artists."
The opposite condition exists as well; men who started out fighting and grappling and later went into the "arts" and learned some interesting things about movement.

As a state of mind-there is a fix for the artist who wants to be a fighter (not all do) -go fight. In lue of that, as least get out and meet people who know how to fight and how to do arts well. They're certainly out there to find and train with. They can at least steer you away from M.A.B.S. (martial art bull__t) contained within many arts and also keep you focused on the many viable things to be found within every art.
It's not reverse engineering, it's a reduction of negatives toward a more viable conclusion-were you so inclined.

The more things change, the more....
Cheers
Dan
Dan:

Points well taken. I would submit to you that the worst of the people do not do so out of fear, but out of blissful ignorance of a reality that is truly life and death.

As to your overall point, I typically refer back to statistics ( Courses that I HATED!!!!), specifically, the bell-shaped curve. The vast majority of the people out there fit into the mediocrity and poor categories. The excellence that you speak of has been and will always remain a rarity. Statistics do not lie, only the people using them do ! The wise person is lucky enough to successfully hunt down and get to train with the superior teachers. At one of the Boulder Summer Camps, Ushiro Sensei stated that it was better to spend three years looking for an excellent teacher, rather than spend three years training with a mediocre teacher.

Look forward to learning again from you soon!

Marc Abrams
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Old 08-25-2009, 05:37 PM   #40
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Re: Disarmament against non-traditional weapons?

Great video.

Funny that when the security guard was stabbed he didn't instantly die. I hope you can pick up on my sarcasm here. Often times when I show the drills we do at my school people want to know why the guy getting cut doesn't stop attacking, because "if that were a real knife"...

Situations like the one seen here in the video seem like the dangerous ones to me (from the perspective of the guy with the weapon). You use your weapon and the guy does not fall down dead, but in fact attacks harder.

These are the types of situations where classical Japanese techniques come in handy. And the more I read about real life knife encounters the more it sounds like it will go down something like show in the video, then someone gets cut and they fall down dead, or stop their attack.

That guard did the right thing by controlling the weapon hand ( when he managed to knock the knife out of the attackers hand). And did the wrong thing when he tried to push and kick the aggressive attacker away.

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Old 08-25-2009, 08:41 PM   #41
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Re: Disarmament against non-traditional weapons?

Kevin,

thanks for the feedback. Actually what I posted there in my less than vivid moment (it was way past my bedtime :P) was just a mini version of what could play out.

Obviously I'm not disparaging a swordsman here over a knife fighter. I only know aikiken and have never taken up iai or kenjutsu. I do know knife fighting better from Silat.

In either case I won't want to mix with them bare handed. Our disarming kata may show you what is required of you, but when I'm of a mind to cut you most of all uke's will get cut. Even senseis... for that matter. That's from my paltry experience anyway.

Thing is the kata shows fighters coming in with single strikes and only with the armed hand. Fighters don't fight that way. Um I don't anyway. We don't lunge either. Its not 1 strike 1 kill. We're not dueling. In my mindset, I'm carving your defences. This means I start with your limbs and potentially the arteries that come with it. I work my way to critical areas as they open up. All this time I will hit, kick and trap your hands with my other limbs. And I don't attack first if I can help it.

In any case, lets agree to say there's no way around it and I have to face the attacker regardless. OODA is valid but like you said it can be invalidated if he has the loop on you. I prefer to think of encounters like this in terms of 'Blink'. Seriously, go read the book.

What I meant by equalising the terrain is by arming yourself against a knife fighter is when you have to ability to do so. Obviously him getting the jump at you, leaves you in a position of having to respond based on your current state of being. Say a superficial cut on the arm or a gut stab. In each state you're likely to survive the onslaught provided you get treatment later.

At this point the fighter has the advantage with the weapon and your injury. You're at this point in time still deliberating fight or flight. The attacker knows this and has a response for each. He also has tactical advantage because he chose the terrain.

The one thing we have to do now is to Accept death. Accept injuries are forthcoming. Accept the knife. Once we are willing to do that, we are in a better situation. We are no longer stalling and trying to avoid being cut. We are no longer trying to perform a demo or a movie scene when the hero leaves unscathed. We have now accepted that we are willing to die to survive this fight. (as opposed to oh crap I'm going to die, I'm going to beat this guy and if I do so be it). Actually I love Systema's knife training and Silat. Because in each they progress to actual use of and edged blade. Nothing beats acceptance by using the thing itself.

Then the rules have changed and the loop is broken. You may now engaged the fighter. You still should even the odds though but at least now, you've taken some of the advantage away from the other guy. And best of all, he might not even know he has lost the advantage.

Funnily enough I wanted to mention the kevlar gloves last night too. And i know some parents are equipping their children with underwear due to the school slashings. I guess it would be cool to wear those things all the time.

I love the pugil sticks exercise you guys do. It beats being battered with the real ones and you can really belt it out. Only sometimes I see strikes hit which are potentially a fightstopper and the receiver just continues fighting. That's...um weird.

I don't know. This is just my take on things anyway. At this point in time. I just hope that its useful to someone at least. I wouldn't say its true for everyone.

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Old 08-26-2009, 12:14 PM   #42
TEARO
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Re: Disarmament against non-traditional weapons?

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote: View Post
Theoretically, yes, if you've completely mastered the art. In practice, I'd consider running, especially where the machete is concerned. If you can't run, pick up a chair or something and heave. I've been doing Kali for 12 years, but when I heard of a machete-weilding nut job on the Ithaca commons, I realized at the time I may have crapped in my pants! Don't be a hero.

Remember also that "no sword" techniques, which encompases disarms, were consiered the highest level of skill. If you're not there, you risk getting yourself killed. Just food for thought.
Don't worry,I haven't been practicing aikido long enough to even think of using it in a real fight.

I actually don't even get in fights,I'm a peacefull person. Really :P.

But I'm just asking this question because sometimes I practice with other aikidokas outside the dojo and we always try to mix up our training as much as possible.

By the way.Great idea for the folding chairs :P I'm gonna try that.
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Old 08-26-2009, 01:23 PM   #43
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Disarmament against non-traditional weapons?

No real issues Ahmad...just presenting a different way of assessing fighting paradigms and evaluating training scenarios.

Weapons of course do affect the fight. Obviously if you have a sword and I don't and we have 10 Meters between us, the advantage is in your favor and it will be very difficult for me to "get ahead" of your loop. VERY DIIFFICULT!

However, if I have a gun, then who is the loop in favor of?

If we both have swords? or we both have tanto?

So yes, weapons affect the situation dramatically and it may be that I cannot get ahead of your loop in which case I lose!

I like some of the vids that Dave Valedez (sic) did about a year ago showing closing distance for police emphazing the "rule of 20" Dave used a spiral movement to reduce the OODA loop allowing the police officer the ability to thwart the bad guys attack.

My point is, even though the police officer had a handgun, the bad buy can close the distance faster than he can draw it, therefore, the weapon is immaterial until the OODA loop is reduced.

By ignoring this process and focusing on drawing the weapon faster or trying to predict/time when the opponent does not solve the problem for the officers, however, when you focus on solving it from a OODA perspective and not a technique or weapons based perspective, it opens up your ability to see the problem in a different set of terms, which expands our options for other solutions sets.

I think this is what is most important about understanding OODA.

The problem set does not change. That is, you have 10 meters of distance, a bad guy with a knife and a policeman with a holstered (or non-holstered gun)....but your perspective of the situation changes when you break the problem down in a different way.

Again, no issues with what you are presenting at all!

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Old 08-26-2009, 06:05 PM   #44
Russell Davis
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Re: Disarmament against non-traditional weapons?

some really interesting stuff, as for cuts to the arms they may not shock but they do effect an opponents ability to strike or grab
back of hand, fleshy part of thumb, outer forearm, bicep, tricep
bonus points for the radial or brachial artery. breakdown the defence to open up his vital areas.
there is also the psychological value
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Old 08-26-2009, 07:14 PM   #45
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Disarmament against non-traditional weapons?

No issues there Russell, as of course you are correct.

From a "Knife Fighting" aspect though, hands and arms move around alot and don't really offer much in the way of good concrete targets. You are also talking about 10ths of seconds of gaining positive effects, so it all comes down to the law of averages.

From my perspective, rule one is to gain the upper hand in the fight. Kuzushi is paramount. You knife can be a good thing to acheive kuzushi. Now in achieving Kuzushi, my target is typically the eyes as it generates the response that I want which is for the opponent to bend backwards. His hands will come up to protect, and of course they are in the slash area so arms and hands will get slashed but that is not my intent. Going low to the front of the legs attacks the major muscles that he stands on.

Now I think this is where good internal training comes into play as if you use the knife correctly you actually "enter" his core, not slash at the surface. (Also requires a decent knife).

Moving to the rear ala, Iriminage allows you to achieve back dominance, which is golden. so you know have Kuzsushi AND you are in a better position to deal with multiple opponents.

From this position you can finish by slashing the lower legs across the back, again, using internal skillz, which will drop him whether he wants to or not as it is simple physics that he has no muscles to stand on or keep a base.

This can all happen within a few seconds done correctly.

The reason I wouldn't target the radial or brachial arteries is that the arms move and it simply is not a good target and they can also be protected well with jackets etc. IMO, there are more effective targets to concentrate on.

To be honest, this is really no different IMO than a norma iriminage, which is good as it keeps things very simple...we only have to learn on set of patterns for movement that are adaptable both for empty hands and edged weapons. The knife doesn't dictate or change the tactics, it simply enhances the situation.

That is why I am always intrigued when all of a sudden you put a knife in some folks hands and they forget what they learn in aikido and want to stand in front, carve, trap, and stab away. I think it is better to irimi and move...especially when you are concerned about multiple opponents.

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Old 08-26-2009, 07:17 PM   #46
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Disarmament against non-traditional weapons?

Oh, yea..also another good thing about moving this way is that I think it also better allows you to use minimium force.

For example, if you have to employ the knife on the front, once you get to the back, it could be that you could choose to limit the damage on the backend if you feel comfortable with your control of the situation.

So, at least, there is some "Positive" in all this gory talk of using knives!

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Old 08-26-2009, 07:56 PM   #47
phitruong
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Re: Disarmament against non-traditional weapons?

i thought this discussion is about non-traditional weapons. wouldn't knife list under traditional? i was thinking along the line of shovel, garden hose, hand axe, high heel shoes, bayonet, belt with big buckle, leather jacket, bag of coins, knuckle laced with keys, watermelon, wet noodles, ...
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Old 08-26-2009, 08:48 PM   #48
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Re: Disarmament against non-traditional weapons?

Phi, good point! LOL! well, I would submit based on my methdology that you approach those the same way, no difference in dynamic pattern/principle. Although I guess if you use the right amount of internal skillz with the watermelon you could strike them in the head with it and it would get stuck on their head so as they could not see and they would be disoriented and fall down trying to pull it off.

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Old 08-27-2009, 09:17 AM   #49
DH
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Re: Disarmament against non-traditional weapons?

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Great video.
Funny that when the security guard was stabbed he didn't instantly die. I hope you can pick up on my sarcasm here. Often times when I show the drills we do at my school people want to know why the guy getting cut doesn't stop attacking, because "if that were a real knife"...

Situations like the one seen here in the video seem like the dangerous ones to me (from the perspective of the guy with the weapon). You use your weapon and the guy does not fall down dead, but in fact attacks harder.

These are the types of situations where classical Japanese techniques come in handy. And the more I read about real life knife encounters the more it sounds like it will go down something like show in the video, then someone gets cut and they fall down dead, or stop their attack.

That guard did the right thing by controlling the weapon hand ( when he managed to knock the knife out of the attackers hand). And did the wrong thing when he tried to push and kick the aggressive attacker away.
Chris
I think you continue to misunderstand some of the comments aimed you way. You hear the critiques as criticisms and you don't "hear" the compliments in the responses.
What I have said to you time and time again is that I admire what your goals and aims are. Didn't I say that to you over and over? My biggest "critique" to your research is the crash test dummy, incompetent weapon wielders. Their attacks are awful and their follow ups are worse. Further their positioning or should I say their lack thereof makes the whole exercise and the results-moot.

Your comments about being criticized about the one being cut continuing to be able to "fight-on" after first contact:
You missed the thrust of the critiques; a sword and the distances it is used at by competent men- is an almost completely different scenario then a knife; the damage is more grievous and the chances of repeated attacks while maintaining distance are not on par with knife work.

The knife work displayed on your videos has the wielder all but giving up when you enter in and not distancing himself or staying engaged during your defense. In short he does "ukemi" while wielding the knife.

I hope you continue. I only encourage you to seek out more competent opponents to wield the weapons so you end up with more realistic and "alive" scenarios that people will take more seriously.
Here's hoping that you do.
Dan
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Old 08-27-2009, 02:06 PM   #50
TEARO
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Re: Disarmament against non-traditional weapons?

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
i thought this discussion is about non-traditional weapons. wouldn't knife list under traditional? i was thinking along the line of shovel, garden hose, hand axe, high heel shoes, bayonet, belt with big buckle, leather jacket, bag of coins, knuckle laced with keys, watermelon, wet noodles, ...
Wet noodles?=P

LOL yeah something like that
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