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Old 08-14-2009, 08:32 PM   #51
rob_liberti
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Re: The true purpose of Aikido?

Quote:
No teacher can teach every single response to an encounter
and
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That is, teach principles of aiki then proceed to then say "well this is how you would use it in self defense." When in all actuality it probably is not, the students are never exposed to the level of stress and non-cooperation, nor are the use of force rules or situational conditions ever discussed.
Funny, this has been exactly what I have been discussing lately. How to work towards exactly that...

Rob

old mcdojo had a form, aiki aiki do...
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Old 08-14-2009, 08:55 PM   #52
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: The true purpose of Aikido?

Rob, I have been down in Florida learning how to do that all week!

That is, how do you train to innoculate the stress of fighting while maintaining a degree of realism balanced by safety.

It has been an eye opening experience working with one of the subject matter experts on this.

There are several issues though that I see.

1. Physical conditioning. students need to be in good shape and not have any real injuries. This is probably the number one thing folks can do to improve their ability to defend themselves.

2. student to instructor ratio. Qualified and trained instructors.

3. Developing the scenarios.

4. finding the time to train. It takes a concentrated effort and a fair amount of time to train adequately. You can't do it in just one weekend.

5. Do folks really want to put themselves through this much stress?

6. Will the students understand how much stress will actually be induced...can they handle it not only physcially, but mentally.

7. How do you bring them along if they are not there physically and mentally?

The funny part is that it kinda goes back to the same thing with internal skills. You gotta put in the physical practice, the hard work of doing lots of gorilla drills, sprawls, push ups, and flutter kicks, etc...in order to be in the proper condition to subject yourself to the level of stress for this type of training.

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Old 08-15-2009, 04:13 AM   #53
rob_liberti
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Re: The true purpose of Aikido?

Kevin, the internal skills should make things a whole heck of a lot less stressful than trying that without them. A lot of the problems about appropriate level of response take care of themselves in that in actively maintaining all of the lines of intent, what you do to people attacking you is mainly determined by how they are attacking you. So you are not trying to decide which waza to do - but instead your internal windings manifest as spiraling (which is mainly beyond my skill level) which gives birth to spontaneous waza.

You just have to concentrate on your first choice being an attempt to neutralize. If you can't - I assume the attacker's MMA skills and/or anti-aiki skills are really good, and then you are probably in the fight of your life. But you still have some important shades of grey where you can pick a strike to the ribs to disable someone (that you couldn't instantly neutralize) as opposed to the throat.

And I suppose I just intend to work towards that level of stressful attack. Where stepping it up to that level would be extremely hard to train safely. I haven't thought through how to get that far. I do not believe that Aikido as a martial art was ever pressure tested at the level I'm thinking about, so it's kind of uncharted territory.

Rob

old mcdojo had a form, aiki aiki do...
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Old 08-15-2009, 10:44 AM   #54
observer
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Re: The true purpose of Aikido?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
I do not believe that Aikido as a martial art was ever pressure tested at the level I'm thinking about, so it's kind of uncharted territory.
I don't think is needed. Aikido for me is just a final challenge. If you do not have a self-confidence it is not worthy to try. The confidence comes from a skill. Just look at your college or school experience. If you are not prepare for an exam there's a small chance to pass (sometimes miracles do happen). Even if you remain calm.
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Old 08-15-2009, 12:23 PM   #55
tarik
 
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Re: The true purpose of Aikido?

The true purpose of aikido is the same as the true purpose of life. Answer one and you have answered the other.

Regards,

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
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Old 08-15-2009, 12:29 PM   #56
tarik
 
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Re: The true purpose of Aikido?

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Brian Northrup wrote: View Post


I think you like to be confrontational. Everything i have ever posted on here that you have responded to has been in opposition to what i think, have you noticed that
You should thank her. That is what the best training partners do. Anything less is a wasted breath.

Quote:
Brian Northrup wrote: View Post
webster may have its definition of spiritual, but my definition has to do with working on my inner most self, to be a better person, and not by means of a higher power. As i stated in an earlier post spirituality can be completely separate from being religious. IMHO
If you insist upon going against the commonly accepted definitions, you must be explicit or expect to be misunderstood. Even when there are multiple commonly accepted definitions, explication remains necessary.

Regards,

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
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Old 08-15-2009, 12:33 PM   #57
tarik
 
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Re: The true purpose of Aikido?

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Clark Bateman wrote: View Post
This entire discussion seems to be a matter of semantics
The implication here is that semantics are not important, when, in fact, aren't they critical?

Quote:
Clark Bateman wrote: View Post
I, for one, find it hard enough to speak for myself, much less the entire body of aikidoka, or the whole of humanity. We are taking issue with what our own perception of others' thoughts are, whereas even subtle differences in meaning do not mean differences of intent. An ad infinitum discussion may not lead to anything more than the realization that it may simply be better to agree to disagree.
Is that a worthless or a worthwhile exercise?

Regards,

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
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Old 08-15-2009, 02:27 PM   #58
aikishrine
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Re: The true purpose of Aikido?

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
You should thank her. That is what the best training partners do. Anything less is a wasted breath.

If you insist upon going against the commonly accepted definitions, you must be explicit or expect to be misunderstood. Even when there are multiple commonly accepted definitions, explication remains necessary.

Regards,
No i wont thank her, she is just trying to be difficult.

And i believe i have explained myself quite well, but if you need me to simplify things better i will. Just let me know
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Old 08-15-2009, 02:31 PM   #59
tarik
 
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Re: The true purpose of Aikido?

Quote:
Brian Northrup wrote: View Post
No i wont thank her, she is just trying to be difficult.
That's certainly your prerogative.

Quote:
Brian Northrup wrote: View Post
And i believe i have explained myself quite well, but if you need me to simplify things better i will. Just let me know
Do you believe that this isn't a confrontational statement?

Regards,

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
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Old 08-15-2009, 03:44 PM   #60
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: The true purpose of Aikido?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
Kevin, the internal skills should make things a whole heck of a lot less stressful than trying that without them. A lot of the problems about appropriate level of response take care of themselves in that in actively maintaining all of the lines of intent, what you do to people attacking you is mainly determined by how they are attacking you. So you are not trying to decide which waza to do - but instead your internal windings manifest as spiraling (which is mainly beyond my skill level) which gives birth to spontaneous waza.

You just have to concentrate on your first choice being an attempt to neutralize. If you can't - I assume the attacker's MMA skills and/or anti-aiki skills are really good, and then you are probably in the fight of your life. But you still have some important shades of grey where you can pick a strike to the ribs to disable someone (that you couldn't instantly neutralize) as opposed to the throat.

And I suppose I just intend to work towards that level of stressful attack. Where stepping it up to that level would be extremely hard to train safely. I haven't thought through how to get that far. I do not believe that Aikido as a martial art was ever pressure tested at the level I'm thinking about, so it's kind of uncharted territory.

Rob
I don't know about all that obviously right now so can't really comment on it.

What I am looking at is getting suprised, overwhelmed, then either maintaining or regaining structure and then trying to override your opponents by interrupting his attack and/or moving to a better position. Finding or using weapons etc.

I am sure internals work wonderfully and there are some guys out there that can demonstrate how they apply and frankly I am interested.

My perspective and focus I think is on a different part of this. Again, no doubt if you have built an instinctive internal body, then by all means apply it! But there are some other elements as well that need to be trained I believe too.

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Old 08-16-2009, 07:45 PM   #61
lbb
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Re: The true purpose of Aikido?

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
Do you believe that this isn't a confrontational statement?
Why, it couldn't possibly be. It has a smiley, doesn't it?
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Old 08-16-2009, 08:15 PM   #62
Erick Mead
 
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Re: The true purpose of Aikido?

Quote:
Brian Northrup wrote:
webster may have its definition of spiritual, but my definition has to do with working on my inner most self, to be a better person, and not by means of a higher power. As i stated in an earlier post spirituality can be completely separate from being religious. IMHO
Depends on what you mean by religion? If you need to be a better person (who doesn't) does it not take a power better, or shall we say higher, to perhaps assist in that? I find it is never the length of the bootstrap that is the problem -- but the length of my arm ...

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 08-17-2009, 07:33 AM   #63
Lyle Bogin
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Re: The true purpose of Aikido?

Isn't the purpose to discover it's purpose?

Aikido's meaning changes as we change.

"The martial arts progress from the complex to the simple."
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Old 08-17-2009, 11:16 AM   #64
jonreading
 
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Re: The true purpose of Aikido?

At this point in my training, I suspect aikido is a tool through which one conditions the body and fortifies the soul to face conflict in life with courage and resolve.
1. Aikido is a martial art requiring discipline, testing and revelation in order to condition my body. My training helps to keep my body healthy, my reflexes quick and my mind sharp. Training empowers my body to do what my mind commands.
2. Aikido is a spiritual anvil. My training helps my to fortify my beilefs, morals, and character because I believe in a thing other than my body which has value...my soul. Training empowers my soul to have courage when it is tested.

I limit my definition to these specifics because there are many things in this world which make us better people. However, I contest that aikido is a crucible in which we should test and refine our humanity. Use whatever term with which you define your humanity...

However, related to my comments, I must observe:
1. How vigorous is your conditioning if you have never been injured in training? Heck, I've broken toes warming up for class...
2. How intense is your spiritual development if you are never willing to test your courage and resolve? Believe in yourself or don't, but why excuse yourself for not believing in yourself?
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Old 08-17-2009, 12:18 PM   #65
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Re: The true purpose of Aikido?

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
At this point in my training, I suspect aikido is a tool through which one conditions the body and fortifies the soul to face conflict in life with courage and resolve.
1. Aikido is a martial art requiring discipline, testing and revelation in order to condition my body. My training helps to keep my body healthy, my reflexes quick and my mind sharp. Training empowers my body to do what my mind commands.
2. Aikido is a spiritual anvil. My training helps my to fortify my beilefs, morals, and character because I believe in a thing other than my body which has value...my soul. Training empowers my soul to have courage when it is tested.

I limit my definition to these specifics because there are many things in this world which make us better people. However, I contest that aikido is a crucible in which we should test and refine our humanity. Use whatever term with which you define your humanity...

However, related to my comments, I must observe:
1. How vigorous is your conditioning if you have never been injured in training? Heck, I've broken toes warming up for class...
2. How intense is your spiritual development if you are never willing to test your courage and resolve? Believe in yourself or don't, but why excuse yourself for not believing in yourself?
I really liked that, thank you, Jon. It's funny, but I was just thinking a very similar set of thoughts in similar terminology, only a little less concise, so I really appreciated reading that.
Take care,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 08-20-2009, 04:13 AM   #66
CarlRylander
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Re: The true purpose of Aikido?

I don't do Aikido, yet but from what I have read and seen, the purpose is to resolve the situation with the minimum amount of violence.
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Old 08-20-2009, 12:14 PM   #67
Anjisan
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Talking Re: The true purpose of Aikido?

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Carl Rylander wrote: View Post
I don't do Aikido, yet but from what I have read and seen, the purpose is to resolve the situation with the minimum amount of violence.
I would hope that would be the perspective of anyone who practices a martial art, regardless of what art it happens to be--that is certainly how the law sees it. However, you are completely correct in that is how Aikido is portrayed and one of the very appealing aspects for me when I began.

Occasionally, I wonder if there is more of a disconnect in the Aikido world because of just that ideal. By that I mean that in the dojo strikes may not be the focus, but the techniques we do use performed on the street could severely injure or kill someone perhaps even more quickly than kicks and punches. I mean if one is on concrete--smack one's face or hit one's head... OUCH!

Therefore, I think that sometimes as Aikidoka we can fool ourselves (I am sure there those who take it to the point of being self-righteous)that we are LESS violent because that is what we as practitioner of the art aspire to and NOT because of the realistic results if we performed the art---in the fog of defending oneself--on the street.
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Old 08-20-2009, 12:32 PM   #68
Lulu
 
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Re: The true purpose of Aikido?

I agree completely with Lyle - everything is always changeing, life and Aikido is not static, but always in motion.
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Old 08-20-2009, 02:12 PM   #69
lbb
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Re: The true purpose of Aikido?

Quote:
Jason Rudolph wrote: View Post
Therefore, I think that sometimes as Aikidoka we can fool ourselves (I am sure there those who take it to the point of being self-righteous)that we are LESS violent because that is what we as practitioner of the art aspire to and NOT because of the realistic results if we performed the art---in the fog of defending oneself--on the street.
"Sometimes"? Just about all the time, I'd say. Unlike a striking style, aikido inflicts injuries that are much more likely to have a permanent effect. As I've said before, I've had a broken nose and I've had a dislocated shoulder, and I know which I'd rather recover from. So much for the holier-than-thou "peaceful" attitude.
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Old 08-20-2009, 10:49 PM   #70
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Re: The true purpose of Aikido?

Quote:
Jason Rudolph wrote: View Post
Or in other words, if your Aikido doesn't have martial practicality to it-and trouble finds you--you may no longer be upright and breathing and if you are not, one may find it difficult to be spiritual.
I am fascinated by your wording here, Jason, albeit concise. I have never heard it put this way or pondered Aikido in this sense. To add to your words, not to rephrase, perhaps the goal here is to live and love, sometimes with tough love, and this cannot be accomplished by someone who can be easily defeated by a mental, physical, or spiritual aggressor. And they exist.

Thanks again, Jason. I feel like you shined light on our art that otherwise seems paradoxical to so many non-Aikidoka, and at least some Aikidoka.

Drew
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Old 08-20-2009, 10:59 PM   #71
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Triangle Re: The true purpose of Aikido?

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Alastair Rae wrote: View Post
I would like to disagree with this statement, hopefully without giving offence. Maybe it's just that people with a deep need for spiritual connection would agree with you and those without, would not.
Needs: water, rice, shelter.

When it comes to needs for living a life of gladness, spiritual connection, i.e. to love and be loved are pretty basic.

So, there is a distinction between human needs to stay alive and human needs to reach a good level of enjoyment of life. I am generally a fan of Maslow's Hierarchy, but I have found his pyramid to be more complex than at first glance.

Drew
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