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Old 08-18-2009, 06:18 AM   #126
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: True Internal Strength

Quote:
Tim Fong wrote: View Post
Shoot, son. You oughta move to the Bay then. You can kick it with Fil-Am females, bang at an mma gym and meet up with folks to work your internal skills. I also hear that there are a few cats who can teach you how to swing a pinuti.
Tempting, all too very tempting Timmy boy. If only I had the dough flow.
 
Old 08-18-2009, 08:06 AM   #127
Marc Abrams
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Re: True Internal Strength

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post

It may upset people that I am a dedicated Aikidoka who has decided to focus strictly on O'Sensei and how he seen Aikido. That I am dedicated to Aikido, and feel Aikido is great art that has helped. But I am not going to apologize for that. Nor do I care, if that offends some people who don't have the same constitution, devotion, or love of Aikido. Or that don't look at Aikido as highly as other arts they do. Yes, I will defend Aikido, but it will be done in a civil manner like I just did. All without personal attacks, and stuff. That isn't my way, or do I feel is my Aikido way. I don't need to fight from a keyboard or not. Being defensive doesn't you have to be belligerent, confrontational, and stuff. Exercising internal strength, the stuff that is taught in Aikido and other true martial arts is a refection of character. Yes, character means not being belligerent, confrontaional, and stuff. It means being civil,doesn't it. That is why I like Aikido, it teaches to civility, and good character in words and deeds.

Phillip:

Please enlighten us as to how it is that you have this inside track into O'Sensei and how he saw Aikido. In order to do so, please provide all us of with a list of the dojo and instructors with whom you train with and how long you have been training with them. I for one, would love to get your teacher's opinions on how it is that you so ardently represent and know so much about O'Sensei's thoughts and opinions.

You then go on to assume that other people do not have the same "constitution, devotion, or love of Aikido." When were you appointed the judge others in those areas? You have my personal invitation to come and teach an adult class at my dojo so that myself and my students can learn from such an apparently pure representative of Aikido. You will have an opportunity to civilly step away from your comfy keyboard and show us what you so ardently say that you represent. My students and myself will independently write reviews of your class and post them so that other people can reflect upon how you impacted a dojo full of dedicated students.

Since you seemingly have a background that enables you to compare other martial arts to Aikido. Please let us know what experiences you have in other arts that enable you to make such an opinion. We would then like a public demonstration as to how you utilize your Aikido and all of the great internal strength that it has brought you to handle attacks from marital artists of other disciplines.

You so tactfully set yourself up as a victim and defender of those who seek to "attack" Aikido. It is no wonder that people are sending out a troll alert on this thread. I sent you a succinct, private pm regarding your postings and hoped that it would allow you some quiet time for reflection. Obviously, you need to continue your patterned behaviors. In absence of anything substantial behind what you can do that backs up what you can say, you will continue to be viewed by many as someone who cannot walk the talk. At the end of the day, true character is measures by someone who can walk the talk.

Marc Abrams
 
Old 08-18-2009, 08:39 AM   #128
David Orange
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Re: True Internal Strength

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
By providing the defination, of "Fad" I hope that cleared it up.
Except your use of "fad" is backward, buddy. IS was in aikido when Ueshiba was doing it. The "fad" is to practice aikido as a brand name product without the IS component.

A bit dim, at best...

Good luck with that.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 08-18-2009, 08:47 AM   #129
David Orange
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Re: True Internal Strength

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
It may upset people that I am a dedicated Aikidoka who has decided to focus strictly on O'Sensei and how he seen Aikido.
Buck, I was uchi-deshi to one of Morihei Ueshiba's earliest uchi-deshi. And the syrupy goo-goo you're ladling out here is nothing like anything I ever saw. If you really want to get an idea of "how he seen Aikido," then you should go to Japan and live as an uchi-deshi in any aikido dojo. I would recommend Iwama, where, technically, they are very close to what O Sensei consistently did through many decades, but even at aikikai hombu, where they're teaching something that is considerably whittled down from that, you will find it to contain none of the claptrap you're spewing here. You will also find it considerably tougher and far less concerned with your inner feelings and imaginations than you seem to believe is the essence of the art.

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
That I am dedicated to Aikido, and feel Aikido is great art that has helped.
How dedicated are you, Buck? Do you train six hours a week at a community school somewhere? That's a lot for most Americans. Give us some idea of how "real" your dedication is. That speaks more than this "radio preacher" stuff you're posting here.

David

Last edited by David Orange : 08-18-2009 at 08:54 AM.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 08-18-2009, 11:34 AM   #130
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: True Internal Strength

Guys, true internal strength has nothing to do with fascia, jin, structure, torque, aiki, etc. It also has nothing to do with character. True internal strength is the ability to resist the urge to nampa onee-kei hime gyarus walking the streets of Ameri-mura in Osaka. Buck, do you agree with this?
 
Old 08-18-2009, 11:34 AM   #131
C. David Henderson
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Re: True Internal Strength

Ah, Buck,

Look closely at your recent posts. Suppose I said, parallelling your latest self-presentation:

"It may upset people that I am a dedicated True American who has decided to focus strictly on America as its founders intended it to be. That I am dedicated to America, and feel America is a great country. But I am not going to apologize for that. Nor do I care, if that offends some people who don't have the same constitution, devotion, or love of America."

(Emphasized words substituted for the original.)

Most of us would recognize this as a classic form of divisive political rhetoric, irrespective of the person's substantive beliefs about their country.

Similarly, several people have just told you that your original statement, substituting "Aikido" for country, also is .... ill received.

I am willing, as yet, to accept that there is an underlying felt sincerity behind your posts. That you feel "passionately" about what you understand to be traditional Aikido. That you think it needs to be studied as it has been presented, rather than changed or supplemented. And that it's true purpose is to make better people.

I also have a number of notions about the kind of character development a martial art should facilitate. Some of those qualities I would include are self awareness, and a certain flexibility in perception and action. They don't include denial, playing the martyr, or boasting.

Would you agree with that?

regards,

cdh
.
 
Old 08-18-2009, 12:02 PM   #132
David Orange
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Re: True Internal Strength

Quote:
David Henderson wrote: View Post
"It may upset people that I am a dedicated True American who has decided to focus strictly on America as its founders intended it to be. That I am dedicated to America, and feel America is a great country. But I am not going to apologize for that. Nor do I care, if that offends some people who don't have the same constitution, devotion, or love of America."
Isn't that a quote from that rube who showed up at the Obama meeting carrying an assault rifle?

Actually, though, that kind of statement plays very well with a significant portion of the populace. And that's just sad.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 08-18-2009, 12:06 PM   #133
Marc Abrams
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Re: True Internal Strength

To All:

I frankly think that until such time that Phillip can demonstrate his real knowledge about anything that he discusses in a dojo with someone respected on the Aikiweb through his practice of Aikido, or any other art for that matter, that we simply turn our attentions to people and ideas that truly add to our Aikido/budo/bujutsu community as a whole. Until such time, talk is cheap and I am frankly tired of giving him the benefit of doubt and time of day.

Marc Abrams
 
Old 08-18-2009, 09:15 PM   #134
stan baker
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Re: True Internal Strength

Hi Shaun.
Do you practice aikido and with who.

stan
 
Old 08-18-2009, 09:47 PM   #135
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Re: True Internal Strength

Because of my original post quoting Rob, has lead me to post more toward discussing true internal strength, something we can achieve. And in my experience can be done in Aikido.

The definitions I presented for each word and what the phrase means has been established many posts back. There is no reason to go over old ground. But, I would like to thank sincerely all those who contributed and helped establish that true internal strength is different from the translated Chinese concept.

Early on prior to this thread, I came across this, "How practicing yoga builds internal strength for day to day living."
February 16, 2009 by Seka Ojdrovic.
I was struck by what she wrote. And what keyed me in and made a parallel experience for me in Aikido.

" ... my journey with others. I'm also interested in learning about what other people go through in helping themselves and others to create a better world.

I'm still not at my grandfather's level of spiritual strength, but I'm taking steps to get there. He is an inspiration to me in the way he lived his life -- not by loudly proclaiming his beliefs to people uninterested in listening, but by quietly living his life with his beliefs at the forefront of his actions.

Practicing yoga draws our focus inward, so it's our responsibility to truly evaluate what kind of impact we're making on this planet for however long we're here. What kind of legacy would I like to leave in my absence?"


It is important to read the article in its entirety to get her tone and stuff. Because, the quoted is out of context the tone might be misleading.

Now I seen allot of truths in this persons life, and things that are parallel to Aikido's philosophy. Like in this quote,[/i] "Practicing yoga draws our focus inward, so it's our responsibility to truly evaluate what kind of impact we're making on this planet for however long we're here. What kind of legacy would I like to leave in my absence?" [/i] For me I felt the same, practicing Aikido which can draw our focus inward, where we take responsibility to truly evaluate impact on the plant.

For me this isn't so much being "Green," instead it is the complexity of us being human, and the whole range and scope of being that. It makes me focus on, and think about the complexity of violence in our culture, and how we violence in so many cultures is acceptable. And how, as individuals, we can change that acceptance of violence both in ourselves and other. That doesn't me the eradication of all violence. But rather change the tolerance levels for violence.

"I’ve begun to really question what I hold most important in life. Family. Love. Acceptance. Support. These are all significant on a personal level… but how can I use the strength created by the practice of yoga to reach out to the world around me?" For me, this is true as well in Aikido. A bit different of course when it comes to Aikido, since Aikido practice isn't yoga practice.

It is rather a result of discipline both mental and physical and through the struggle of learning something very difficult such as technique. Like where you fail thousands of times, come close a million times before you get it once. Or where by the nature of Aikido practice seeks to resolve conflict, and to control violence or aggression. Aikido in general is instead about de-escalating conflict, where you don't have to go toe-to-toe, force against force to get result. Aikido teaches through practice to blend when confronted with violence, and aggression, and then be able to control it. Aikido don't have to meet violence on its own terms, you don't have to be a typical fighter to have control over violence.

The mind through the practice of the body in Aikido has changed the way many people look at themselves. Over years of practice this can have an effect on people. And people have posted that truth how Aikido change them from being aggressive and violent to not. Or how these people where able to avoid violence, because of Aikido.

It takes true internal strength to avoid violence when otherwise you might engage in it. I was told by a Chinese Professor who practiced both Chinese internal arts, and external arts the goal of a good Chinese martial artist is to avoid conflict (referring to violence as well). And that idea has also worked its way into the Chinese way of life- goings without saying, of course that is to a degree, and he doesn't mean everyone. But the point is that parallels Aikido philosophy on certain level.

True internal strength helps us to discover, evaluate and draws our focus inward. That might not be true for everyone, it is lost on some, it is ignored by others, and some just don't get it. Point is it is not something EVERYONE experiences, and I don't want the reader to think I meant everyone- of course I don't that goes without saying. That is something to get people to look inward, and change. I credit Aikido for the internal strength I found.

Last edited by Buck : 08-18-2009 at 09:53 PM.
 
Old 08-18-2009, 10:06 PM   #136
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Re: True Internal Strength

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Guys, true internal strength has nothing to do with fascia, jin, structure, torque, aiki, etc. It also has nothing to do with character. True internal strength is the ability to resist the urge to nampa onee-kei hime gyarus walking the streets of Ameri-mura in Osaka. Buck, do you agree with this?
REpeat.
 
Old 08-18-2009, 10:07 PM   #137
Buck
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Re: True Internal Strength

Note I didn't add to my last post: I said before, way back in other posts, that I don't associate true internal strength with being a component of Aikido. And I alluded to that in the last post. I think this is an important distinction.

For example of what I mean, there are many pagan practices that are practiced by Christians who are unaware these practices are pagan in origin. One I can think of off hand is lent. This type of thing is what I want to avoid. And it is my reasoning for the many times, up to this point, of my demarcation of true internal strength and Aikido.

Last edited by Buck : 08-18-2009 at 10:12 PM.
 
Old 08-19-2009, 12:33 AM   #138
Buck
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Re: True Internal Strength

Since am at it, I don't know if I mentioned it in this post, but it did cause a concern in this thread when I mentioned O'Sensei and his original intent for Aikido, and how I want to focus on that. This relates to demarcation of the Aikido practiced by O'Sensei and everyone else's interpretation or design. That means I don't want to add anything to what I think Aikido should be or what anyone else thinks it should be. Now everyone else is entitled to interpret or change the design how they see fit. As much as I appreciate that, I feel I haven't seen or touched the original.

This is my personal experience. My personal point of interest. Whether it is possible or not, at least is strips away all or some of the myths and misconceptions that I was told and believed Aikido to be. Now I have been told that I risk creating my own misconceptions and myths. Being well aware of that at the start of my changing views, that is the risk ( a low one at that) I will have to take. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. And I fault no one except myself, if I do so.

Last edited by Buck : 08-19-2009 at 12:35 AM.
 
Old 08-19-2009, 02:42 AM   #139
eyrie
 
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Re: True Internal Strength

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
...O'Sensei and his original intent for Aikido, and how I want to focus on that..... That means I don't want to add anything to what I think Aikido should be or what anyone else thinks it should be.
Now here's a nice little thought experiment...

1. How do you know what his original intent was?
Know? For certain? Beyond a shadow of a doubt? At best, you can perhaps make an educated guess, surmise, postulate, or presume what his original intent might be. But to "know" for certain?

2. How do you know that what you think you know, is nothing more than your own current perception and intepretation of the subject?
Everyone perceives and interprets things differently - based on knowledge, experience, value systems, and just plain 'ol how we are all "wired" differently. Can you definitively say there is no perception and/or interpretive bias on your part?

3. How do you know that there is absolutely nothing to be added to or taken away from?
How do you know IF the art IS complete, or that even the transmission of the art from your teacher to you is complete? From their teacher to them? And so on? How do you know if aspects of the art aren't merely extraneous vestigial and ritual artifacts from a bygone era, or from a culture far removed from yours, that has little or no bearing on the art itself, but is merely the "packaging" in which it came?

(Note, when I say "you" I mean "anyone".. not YOU specifically)

Ignatius
 
Old 08-19-2009, 03:20 AM   #140
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: True Internal Strength

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Since am at it, I don't know if I mentioned it in this post, but it did cause a concern in this thread when I mentioned O'Sensei and his original intent for Aikido, and how I want to focus on that. This relates to demarcation of the Aikido practiced by O'Sensei and everyone else's interpretation or design. That means I don't want to add anything to what I think Aikido should be or what anyone else thinks it should be. Now everyone else is entitled to interpret or change the design how they see fit. As much as I appreciate that, I feel I haven't seen or touched the original.

This is my personal experience. My personal point of interest. Whether it is possible or not, at least is strips away all or some of the myths and misconceptions that I was told and believed Aikido to be. Now I have been told that I risk creating my own misconceptions and myths. Being well aware of that at the start of my changing views, that is the risk ( a low one at that) I will have to take. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. And I fault no one except myself, if I do so.
Do you think that Aikido will give me the internal strength to resist the urge to nampa Shibuya gyarus that hang around 109?
 
Old 08-19-2009, 03:33 AM   #141
Upyu
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Re: True Internal Strength

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Since am at it, I don't know if I mentioned it in this post, but it did cause a concern in this thread when I mentioned O'Sensei and his original intent for Aikido, and how I want to focus on that.
Here's another thought experiment. How do you figure

'If one of you can punch a hole through a shoji with just your ejaculation, then you'll be a real martial artist!'
(that's a quote from Ueshiba, actually)

fits into Ueshiba's au naturelle approach to holy budo?
 
Old 08-19-2009, 03:46 AM   #142
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: True Internal Strength

Quote:
Stan Baker wrote: View Post
Hi Shaun.
Do you practice aikido and with who.

stan
Stan, after questions like that, no wonder that The Silence is Deafening. Its a Well known Secret that asking rhetorical questions like that will have you Going Nowhere fast. The whole point of this thread reminds me of the inert virtues of Fighting for Peace. But enough of the Painless Torture of these and similarly astute oxymoron such as your, "PRACTICE AIKIDO" which I most humbly leave to you and whoever else feels the need for such nonsense.

Truthfully, dude... if your question was meant to be funny, then poke me in the gut so I can crack a smile and start laughing. Otherwise, feel free to use the "View Profile" button by right-clicking on my username anytime before midnight.

Best in training to you and all.

...and in honor of another ridiculous thread currently growing in size here on AikiWeb I will repeat two things Seagal Sensei used to say

1. If you don't want to get hit, don't be there...

and my personal favorite

2. Watch me slowly...

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
 
Old 08-19-2009, 06:38 AM   #143
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: True Internal Strength

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
Here's another thought experiment. How do you figure

'If one of you can punch a hole through a shoji with just your ejaculation, then you'll be a real martial artist!'
(that's a quote from Ueshiba, actually)

fits into Ueshiba's au naturelle approach to holy budo?
Haha I remember this one. Good times.
 
Old 08-19-2009, 09:49 AM   #144
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Re: True Internal Strength

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
For example of what I mean, there are many pagan practices that are practiced by Christians who are unaware these practices are pagan in origin. One I can think of off hand is lent.
...wait, what?
 
Old 08-19-2009, 09:54 AM   #145
Mike Sigman
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Re: True Internal Strength

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
...wait, what?
He meant lint, Mary. Once it gets on your hand, it's hard to get offhand, as he says. Even pagans used to have that problem, so it truly is one that comes to us from pagan times.

HTH

Mike
 
Old 08-19-2009, 03:01 PM   #146
C. David Henderson
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Re: True Internal Strength

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
****
Early on prior to this thread, I came across this, "How practicing yoga builds internal strength for day to day living."
February 16, 2009 by Seka Ojdrovic.
I was struck by what she wrote. And what keyed me in and made a parallel experience for me in Aikido.

****

Now I see[] allot of truths in this person[']s life, and things that are parallel to Aikido's philosophy. Like in this quote,[/i] "Practicing yoga draws our focus inward, so it's our responsibility to truly evaluate what kind of impact we're making on this planet for however long we're here. What kind of legacy would I like to leave in my absence?" [/i] For me I felt the same, practicing Aikido which can draw our focus inward, where we take responsibility to truly evaluate impact on the plan[e]t.

******

[It's a] bit different of course when it comes to Aikido, since Aikido practice isn't yoga practice.

It is rather [1] a result of discipline both mental and physical and through the struggle of learning something very difficult such as technique. Like where you fail thousands of times, come close a million times before you get it once. Or [2] . Aikido in general is instead about de-escalating conflict, where you don't have to go toe-to-toe, force against force to get result. Aikido teaches through practice to blend when confronted with violence, and aggression, and then be able to control it.

*****

.
(Bracketed material, omissions, and emphasis mine.)

Buck,

This is an interesting post.

As someone who has practiced yoga for a number of years, often on a daily basis, in addition to Aikido, it stirred up some thoughts for me.

I do think that the aims of asana practice are not dissimilar to the more "spiritual" aspirations of Aikido. And you are right that they are clearly not the same. However, I would compare and contrast a bit differently:

First, while Aikido practice certainly has given me cause to be self-reflective, I tend to see it as different from yoga in terms of "draw[ing] focus inward."

Most asana practice in this country at least is solo practice; yoga class often resembles the "parallel play" of small children, where a room full of people are all doing the same poses without much interaction.

In Aikido, class time is usually dominated by paired practice.

One of the primary differences, to me, is that much of asana practice doesn't involve touching or interacting with other people. In fact, I found it amusing to read on another forum the reactions of yogi's and yogini's to paired asana practice.

A number of men and women reported they found it disturbing and disrupting of their inward focus to be touched by another, often sweaty, human being -- many times a relative stranger.

I also found it interesting that multiple posters on that forum who were not bothered by the experience self-reported they also were martial artists.

Conversely, I believe its possible for someone whose Aikido practice consists mainly or solely of going to class and training with other people to find the perception of what his or her own body is actually doing gets swamped by the perceptual and physical input from the other person.

Second, I don't think its accurate to suggest that mastery of Aikido, but not yoga, is "a result of discipline both mental and physical and through the struggle of learning something very difficult such as technique. Like where you fail thousands of times, come close a million times before you get it once."

There is as much to explore in most asana as in most Aikido waza, and getting the outward form approximately correct in either doesn't really cut it. It takes years and "10,000 repetitions."

Third, I do agree with you that a basic contrast between the two lies in "the nature of Aikido practice seeks to resolve conflict, and to control violence or aggression," or as Kevin put it earlier in this thread, budo necessarily involves "the study of violence."

I have, in fact, heard yoga instructors exhort folks to go out into the world with their hearts "open" (which has intended, quasi-physical as well as emotional/philosophical connotations). That's a nice aspiration, but coming from an Aikido perspective, it struck me as foolish more than brave in an often violent, psychologically unhealthy, and unpleasant world.

Finally, for me, by comparing yoga with Aikido, your post strongly suggests an equal level of complementarity between IT and aikido --in terms of your own emphasis on "making better people."

I personally don't see either as in conflict with my traditional Aikido practice.

YMMV.

cdh
 
Old 08-19-2009, 03:05 PM   #147
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Re: True Internal Strength

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
He meant lint, Mary. Once it gets on your hand, it's hard to get offhand, as he says. Even pagans used to have that problem, so it truly is one that comes to us from pagan times.

HTH

Mike
Oh. I thought maybe he meant when you're out at a bar and a friend comes up short and needs to borrow money from you. Thanks for clarifying.
 
Old 08-19-2009, 04:21 PM   #148
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: True Internal Strength

David, very, very good post. I agree 100% with your assessment. It parallels mine as well.

 
Old 08-19-2009, 06:19 PM   #149
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Re: True Internal Strength

Hi Shaun,
I am glad you have a sense of humor,come north and visit us.

stan
 
Old 08-19-2009, 06:28 PM   #150
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Re: True Internal Strength

Quote:
Stan Baker wrote: View Post
Hi Shaun,
I am glad you have a sense of humor,come north and visit us.

stan
I have a sense of humor? I have never been so wrongly accused! I think I killed that off around the same time as I burnt my heart black and then killed of my inner child. Gee, now that I think about it that was so long ago I think I was still a child.

I do appreciate the invitation, though. Thanks.

Best in training to you and all...

.

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