Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Anonymous

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-12-2002, 10:41 AM   #76
"Unregistered"
IP Hash: 4079b714
Anonymous User
Quote:
BC wrote:
Actually clients acquired from running a business are typically called "customer lists" or "customer relationships," and there are recognized methodologies and standards for proving them and establishing values for them. Just my two cents.
What happens, I wonder, if clients are acquired by a person and customer lists / relationships are based on studying / working with that person, and that person dies ? What happens if those students go their separate ways ? Does the orginazation that remains have a claim to those students ? If that relationship was the sole basis for those students being a part of the orginazation ? Or can the go their separate ways ?
 
Old 07-12-2002, 12:23 PM   #77
Erik
Location: Bay Area
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,200
Offline
Quote:
Unregistered wrote:

What happens, I wonder, if clients are acquired by a person and customer lists / relationships are based on studying / working with that person, and that person dies ? What happens if those students go their separate ways ? Does the orginazation that remains have a claim to those students ? If that relationship was the sole basis for those students being a part of the orginazation ? Or can the go their separate ways ?
The organization does not own the students. It's the other way around. The only way to get around this is through a contract then the students would still be obligated to pay if they left.

In fact, most client lists are lost whenever a salesman leaves. It depends on the state but in many states a non-compete is valid only in very narrow and specific areas. In the case of a salesman, at least here in California, you can't limit their ability to apply their trade. So they hop on over to a competitor, set up shop, and start calling on their old customers. Game over, you lose.

The idea is to treat your salespeople in a way that they don't leave. Which brings me back to the crux of the problem. If all an organization offers is the charisma (stealing from Peter Goldsbury's writings) of their leader then when that person dies the organization will die or at least suffer. For organizations to survive they'll need either a strong and clear plan of succession (a charismatic #2) or they have to offer something of value to it's members.

Unfortunately, I know of no organization offering anything to it's members other than charisma and a piece of paper with Japanese writing on it, which, you still have to pay for. To put it more bluntly, I know of no organization offering it's members anything more than the opportunity to pay annual dues and test fees. If that's all you offer then I don't think you have much of a right to expect loyalty when the charisma leaves.
 
Old 07-12-2002, 12:48 PM   #78
"Unregistered"
IP Hash: f60efaf2
Anonymous User
I fail to see how one can claim that a student is a 'goodwill' or 'client' or 'customer relationship' when the directors of one's school kicks them out for training with a respected teacher that one's organization was praising to the skies only three months ago.
 
Old 07-12-2002, 01:10 PM   #79
"Unregistered"
IP Hash: f9166a97
Anonymous User
The root issue with all this talk of organizations having schisms and restricting people seems be a confusion by some students of their training with their organizations.

Organizations are businesses. They can benefit students, they can provide survival to the organization head, and they can promote the art in a unified manner. All that is good. But when organizations begin to restrict training opportunities, rather then encourage them, we can be sure that the reason is purely economic. All talk of "loyalty", "tradition" etc. is bull. In the case of AAA, their sensei died. What is someone supposed to be loyal to now? The continuation of his business by someone else? "His training and tradition," you might say. OK, that can be done anywhere...you don't have to be in his business to follow his teachings. In some cases, it might be impossible to follow a teacher's traditions and teachings by staying! Who's to know?

I'm tired of people whining. Someone doesn't want to be in your club anymore? Fine...let them go! They're stealing your students? Ppeople aren't objects that can be stolen. They leave, especially if you don't keep them happy. Tough luck for you...you won't get their dues anymore. Ask yourself why, and face the music.

Organizations are not the training. If an organization loses sight of training and only seeks to perpetuate itself at any cost, then it is useless and should be corrected or abandoned. Go out into the woods, swing your bokken, train with anyone you want, test for rank or not as you wish. The bottom line is what you accomplish and realize through your training, not who you money to.

I'm sure Musashi was criticized for not belonging to a "recognized" ryu and for striking out on his own. Mostly by the people whose butts he kicked.
 
Old 07-12-2002, 03:16 PM   #80
giriasis
Location: Ft. Lauderdale, Florida
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 819
United_States
Offline
Quote:
Unregistered wrote:
I fail to see how one can claim that a student is a 'goodwill' or 'client' or 'customer relationship' when the directors of one's school kicks them out for training with a respected teacher that one's organization was praising to the skies only three months ago.
First, I want to say I have absolutely no clue what is going on in the dojos in the current situation. My statement was addressing someone stating that students can not be trademarks and therefor can't be covered by a covenant not to compete. That's true.

Robert, aren't customer lists considered "trade property"? The customer list is the property not the customers. But just the "expectation of continued customer patronage" (Black's Law Dictionary, ab. 6th ed., pg. 479) is "goodwill"? That's my understanding.

This is how I understand, generally (subject to expections and state laws), happens with "goodwill" and trade property

Business X contracts with Mr. Y to work for them and includes and covenant not to compete from within (let's say for hypo sake) 5 miles and that you can't solicit the clients of Business X to come to your Mr. Y's Business. Mr. Y gets upset with Business X and decides to leave and open his own shop. If he takes a customer list (trade property) and solicits he violates the covenant. Or if he opens shop within a mile, and what Business "Business X" would have received was lost because Mr. Y's Business was set up within a mile. As a result, he violates the covenant not to compete. (Of course for this to make sense it would have to be customary for the type of business such as beauty salons.)

But, to begin with, all of this talk requires a contract to exist between X and Y. If it doesn't exist there is no issue and the whole idea is just moot. Meaning that Student Y of Sensei X would have to have a contract and a promise not to compete if they leave. I imagine perhaps not in aikido, but in a McDojo kind of situation where a Dojo business hires a person to teach you could possibly find such a contract. But a contract with ones students like this is riduclous.

Anne Marie

Anne Marie Giri
Women in Aikido: a place where us gals can come together and chat about aikido.
 
Old 07-12-2002, 04:46 PM   #81
"Unregistered"
IP Hash: 25cd4fcc
Anonymous User
In my experience, the AAA has, is, and probably always will encourage their students to train at other dojos and with other affiliations. I think that people might have gotten the wrong impression from this thread. Most of us AAAers are happily training and paying little to no attention to the "schism." A few members feel the need to be vocal about it and I support them (which doesn't necessarily mean I always agree). But most of us couldn't care less and are just happy to have wonderful dojos in which to train. An organization is really just the people in it and as long as those people continue to thrive in their training, the organization will thrive. No worries. Have fun!
 
Old 07-12-2002, 05:10 PM   #82
BC
Location: Chicago, IL
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 432
Offline
You're right, a customer can never become the property of a business merely by doing business with them. I wasn't looking at the situation from a legal/litigation standpoint, but rather from a financial. A customer list only has monetary value to an organization if there is some contractual relationship between the two parties for the business between them.

Robert Cronin
 
Old 07-14-2002, 12:47 PM   #83
"Unregistered"
IP Hash: 9ad41c14
Anonymous User
Wow, you folks are really entertaining. After reading your opinions I can't tell if Moore Sensei's dojo is filled with sneaky anarchists or a confused flock of sheep. I am a member of AAA but know many of the members who have left or have been "asked" to leave. I saw their dojo once and must say that it was a warm comfortable place filled with people whose only desire was to train hard with the person whose aikido they respect the most. Many of them are confused and hurt by the treatment they have received by AAA and their former friends there. Don't be afraid of shinjinkai. Just let them be. AAA has enough problems on its own.
 
Old 07-14-2002, 09:38 PM   #84
"Unregistered"
IP Hash: c76f1d12
Anonymous User
Moore was supposed to teach a seminar in GA sponsored by a group there that happens to be AAA. I was just told that the seminar is now cancelled because AAA told the GA dojo that, if they had this seminar, they would be kicked out of AAA.

Can anyone confirm this?

This stuff is ridiculous, but happens all the time. It happened in every generation whenever a leader passes or organizatons breakup. It happened at Hombu when Tohei left to make Ki society, it happened in Ki Society when Toyoda and others left to do their gigs, it happens now. Nothing new under the sun, as they say. Unfortunately.

Good to be independent from all organizations! I'll stay with my unaffiliated, blissfully ignorant dojo, thank you.
 
Old 07-14-2002, 09:50 PM   #85
"Unregistered"
IP Hash: 423f07ea
Anonymous User
Confirmed. You will see the seminar removed from his website.
 
Old 07-14-2002, 10:09 PM   #86
"Unregistered"
IP Hash: c76f1d12
Anonymous User
How do you know this? I know this is an anonymous forum, but it still shouldn't be used to spread rumors without a demonstrable basis in fact. Can you identify the proof of this? As far as I can see, the seminar is still being advertised on the web site.
 
Old 07-14-2002, 11:15 PM   #87
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,077
Japan
Offline
Getting really tired of the Anonymous designation. Aikiweb seems to be degenerating really quickly.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
 
Old 07-14-2002, 11:31 PM   #88
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,854
Offline
I agree, Peter. As this thread has turned into mere political bickering, I've decided to close it.

Once again, the Anonymous forum is not a place for anonymous attacks, petty or otherwise. Please respect this, otherwise I'll just have to close the forum.

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
 
Old 07-15-2002, 10:11 AM   #89
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,854
Offline
Hi folks,

In order to better "identify" Unregistered users who don't change their default "Unregisterd" monicker, I've changed the code to show a partial IP address in the form of "--.123.45.67" on the left side of each anonymous post. This should provide enough privacy as to not reveal the entire IP address of the poster but provide some indication of "who is who" through a thread.

This only applies to anonymous users in the Anonymous Forum.

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
 

Please visit our sponsor:

Handmade Aikido Gifts - Handmade functional ceramic art with aikido themes



Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:55 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate