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Old 08-09-2009, 04:33 PM   #701
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

"At what cost?"
Well, there would be the cost of transportation to get to Dan's barn and the cost of lodging while there. There would also be the cost of leave time from my job. All of that is minimal in comparison to the knowledge I believe I would gain. So in the end, the payback would be greater than the cost.
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Old 08-09-2009, 07:54 PM   #702
MM
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote: View Post
If we take the time to actually listen to what Hikistuchi Sensei says O-Sensei saiid, over and over, that the work of Aikido, the way of Aiki is about understanding how to connect with the divine and being in that place the waza is something other than movement, other than self defense, other than competition... etc. Given this is what the founder said was the substance of his art form isn't it delusion to think that for even a moment that without a complete and true connection with the divine, THERE IS NO AIKI.
Well, perhaps only partially right with "THERE IS NO AIKI".

As to aiki ... with Ueshiba, as we've all said many times before, he had two main people who influenced him: Takeda and Deguchi. Now, Takeda gave Ueshiba Daito ryu aiki. Deguchi's influence gave Ueshiba a spiritual outlook. In essence, you can, and IMO should, look at Ueshiba from both perspectives.

He never stopped doing both. There wasn't one without the other. So, your "THERE IS NO AIKI" in connection with the divine isn't exactly true. There most certainly was aiki in Ueshiba even without the divine spirituality that he espoused. He showed it all the time by having people push on him, etc.

You might want to disagree with that, but it's not really open to debate. It's Daito ryu aiki and Ueshiba had it until he died. He never stopped doing that. And he built his spirituality with that body skill.

So, more to the point, I can agree that without Ueshiba's spiritual component, there isn't the vision of Ueshiba's aikido. And if you want to name that as "aiki", sure, why not? It'll get kind of confusing when we talk about Daito ryu aiki, but it isn't like that won't happen anyway.

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote: View Post
The example O-Sensei set was clearly verbalized in the video of Hikistuchi Sensei. He said it over and over, "...to absolutely connect oneself to the divine. I might be surprised, but I have to ask as I am wondering... Is Dan teaching that? If not, is he even speaking about it? If not, is he even wondering about that? If not, who is? It leads me to wonder something else, something that perhaps we should discuss in a new thread should someone care to start it, "Based upon O-Sensei's model of Aiki as illustrated in his many writings, interviews and videos, is something missing in Dan's model of Aiki?


Best in training to you and all?

.
I'm learning aiki filtered down through a Daito ryu lineage. It has the same components that Ueshiba is said to have done and shown. Is there anything missing? Maybe. Maybe not. And maybe I'm learning more than what Ueshiba showed most of the time. Ask me in some years when I've progressed some. I can say that there's more of Ueshiba's aiki to be learned here than anywhere else I've trained. And unlike what you keep harping on, Shaun, none of us have said that this is all there is to Ueshiba's aikido. Yet you keep making that mistake.

So, how about the flip side, Shaun? Can *you* do what Ueshiba is shown doing on video and written about? Can you withstand a push to the chest? Can you sit on the mat and have people push on your head and not be pushed over? Can you do all the Daito ryu aiki tricks that Ueshiba did? IF not, then no matter how much you train in the spiritual, "THERE IS NO AIKI". No Daito ryu aiki and without that, no overall aiki. There is only half a shell without that base of Daito ryu aiki.

As I've said before, Ueshiba had *both* components. Not one, not the other. Both. Unless you train both, you won't be anywhere near Ueshiba's aikido. And like I said before, I really do hope that your training is covering that half of Ueshiba's aikido. It means that not all is lost. And if you do have Daito ryu aiki, let us know because I'm sure a lot of people will be interested. You would be in a singular position to have both parts: spiritual and physical. How many out there are like that? I'd imagine very, very few.
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Old 08-09-2009, 09:09 PM   #703
rob_liberti
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Shaun,

It was a movie quote joke, about the aiki from DR, followed by a simile face. No need to worry all that much, I think you have something very important that I want to learn about.

At what cost? There is a cost of delusion too... Having paid a bit of THAT price, I'm inclined to risk the cost of the other side for a while.

One last thought, wasn't Hikistuchi Sensei's dojo a full contact aikido dojo in Shingu?

Rob

old mcdojo had a form, aiki aiki do...
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Old 08-10-2009, 06:46 AM   #704
phitruong
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

still trying to figure out what the heck is the "spirituality" that everyone is talking about. is it anything like "chop wood and carry water"?
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Old 08-10-2009, 07:32 AM   #705
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Phi, it is a good question. I believe many mean deep and earnest sincerity as spirituality. Yet others may mean mystical experience.. the At Oneness. At the core of the "tree of knowledge", and the same basic teaching; you will find this the root. A belief and experience in the interconnectedness of all things. In a way this is true. In a way it is not.

Last edited by thisisnotreal : 08-10-2009 at 07:40 AM.
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Old 08-10-2009, 07:53 AM   #706
DH
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Hello Shaun
I have been challenged repeatedly to either describe or demonstrate the martial attributes of aiki to the aikido community. I think it is fair to say, I have done so, repeatedly. Now with some three dozen teachers from various branches. Mike has met a series of teachers and students
So has Ark
Lets add in Ikeda who is doing his own research
There really is no more discussion to be had
Since that issue is now dead (accept for those few who drank the kool-aid) how about we move on to your next point:
The spiritual aspects and how they manifest physically as well as being the true defining aspects of Ueshiba's power.

I am asking you to step up and say, do or offer, something meaningful.

a) I asked for a hands-on demonstration
you reneged and said you no longer teach
b) You suggest you would take me to Osaka. I asked when?
You reneged and said you would have to try and work things out over time
c) You said there was a known list of teachers who got it from Ueshiba and we would be surprised who was and wasn't- on it (right here in this thread)
I asked for that list
You then said there wasn't a list.
d) I wrote you privately. You haven't responded
e) Now you are stating that to train with us (Mike Ark and myself) would bring skill but
"At what cost?" Suggesting you can offer power and a divine inspiration at the same time.

This continued suggestion of something unproved, the constant referral to a claim unknown, the overt statement that you have it and know of select sect of others who do too- is starting to sound rather spurious and arbitrary.

Take heart though. It was the meat and potatoes of much anger and assertion here for years until we all started to meet. Once met, all of that nonsense blew up in everyone's face when they came face-to -face and put hands on us up close and personal. As I said to Kevin, "Let's be frank. We established a dialogue after all of you guys were stopped cold at what aiki really is and can do." The way of aiki is defined, known and can be demonstrated.
We "established the dialogue," one by one, one after the other, Shodan to Shihan, every, single, time, by evidence and explanation. Now there is real work being done and everyone is improving.
So why not join in?
Think positive! Maybe you have something to share!
Since you demand on being part of the ever growing community exchange on the adoption of aiki into aikido training; maybe its time to step up and offer something meaningful.
Continually suggesting that it is "the spiritual practice that creates the power and aiki"- is a fine argument. You're just not making it very well. It just isn't cutting it. It leaves out answers to many crucial questions. How? Where? What physical means? What are the mental drivers? What institutes change? Who knows? Where are they? Who are their students that demonstrably show the veracity of the method?

How about we follow the standard that was set and demanded here.

1. Why don't you step up and clearly define Ueshiba's spirituality____________________________?
2. How, and where did his spirituality physically affect and manifest itself directly into the physical body without physical training_________________?
3. If you are arguing that -like we say- it is a physical training process but it produces different results-state what our results are and where and how they differ from yours___________________?
3. Who are the aikido teachers you keep talking about who "got it?"
4. Have they produced written works?
5. Can they- upon testing- do the same things Ueshiba did?
6. Can I go around you (with the people I know) and meet and test them?

In short, in light of your professed spiritual search- it seems you really aren't interested in helping anyone but yourself. Don't you think the best thing to do is to give Aikido to the world?
Where did I hear that before?
Thanks
Dan

Last edited by DH : 08-10-2009 at 08:02 AM.
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Old 08-10-2009, 09:39 AM   #707
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
In short, in light of your professed spiritual search- it seems you really aren't interested in helping anyone but yourself. Don't you think the best thing to do is to give Aikido to the world?
Where did I hear that before?
Thanks
Dan
Shaun
I wanted to make sure you understood this was a serious invitation to reach out, if you really have something worthwhile, and if it turns out you don't, its a great opportunity to learn and make friends. A real win/ win . As many people are stating now- there is a new openness that is knocking down barriers and bringing people together. I think that's a good thing, and for anyone discussing spirituality; helping the community is a great start.

That was a lesson I learned from a rather cantankerous old Jewish guy!
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Old 08-10-2009, 02:10 PM   #708
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Shaun
I wanted to make sure you understood this was a serious invitation to reach out, if you really have something worthwhile, and if it turns out you don't, its a great opportunity to learn and make friends. A real win/ win . As many people are stating now- there is a new openness that is knocking down barriers and bringing people together. I think that's a good thing, and for anyone discussing spirituality; helping the community is a great start.

That was a lesson I learned from a rather cantankerous old Jewish guy!
Hi Dan,

Thanks for your thoughtful posts. Clearly I have managed to make you feel that it is necessary to attack me from that corner you found yourself backed into. It wasn't me that put you there, though, so I am not so sure why you feel it necessary to relate things to people here that were included in a private message that I sent to you.

I know you mean well with all that you do. Of course, good intentions and all are not really indicative of good results. Case in point, you aren't getting anywhere with me - not that you really care. I do love it when you and yours love to make the point, "...there really is no more discussion/debate about these things..."

I asked many questions of you that you continually choose not to answer. You do this every time I ask those questions. When I ask them rhetorically of the community at large, you know to illicit responses from people who are not you, either You, Mark, and now Rob Liberti tend to step up and use the all powerful - but Dan can stop everyone dead in their tracks to explain away that you are on the right path. OK Dan, Bravo. So now you come out here and demand answers from me - even though I plainly expressed to you in that very same private message why I am not at liberty to discuss certain things publicly. I know, that just doesn't suit your needs at the moment. However, that will just have to do. So sorry.

The bottom line for me is very simple. I will reiterate it again here for you just so there are no misunderstandings... You seem to be free to do and say as you please. While that is wonderful given your high status and all, I am not so high... I do have such freedoms as you as I have teachers to whom I answer and protocols which I take to heart. I have no intention to put those things aside. None at all. I really don't worry about what you think about that, nor what you will say about that here, or on the private side. Pride and Ego aside, I really don't worry about what others may think about me, even if that means my credibility is questioned or (gasp) even lost. So now we have your list of questions and demands...

Here is where I am at with you calling me out... again:I do not now, nor, short of a miracle, will I ever answer to you.
  • Feel free to write me off - That is your right
  • Feel free to not respond when I post questions about your all encompassing model of Aiki - That is your right
  • Feel free to disparage me personally (again) and then call me out (again) to prove how right you are - That is your right
  • Feel free to demand that your minions excommunicate me from your kingdom of Aiki never to be granted access again - That, too, is your right

So many rights. Isn't the world grand? Its a shame that all of those rights don't mean you are right. So it goes...

So yes... You can stop us all dead in our tracks... (a point I have never publicly denied, and actually often publicly acknowledged). As wonderful as that might be in that world of Aiki of yours, it doesn't give you the power to stop people from questioning you - even if we just all happen to be wrong

Let's be even clearer, Dan. It is clear that you have opened a door for people to step through, one where the power of Aiki (Aiki as you define it) rules the day. Remember that Ego and Pride, Dan? You are offering a model of Aiki that reeks of such things couched in a smile and a firm grip. Wonderful, Dan. Good on you, mate! It will be very interesting to see what all the powerful folks you develop will do when (metaphorically speaking) the building is on fire, and the door to the room you let people in through is blocked and all those wonderful, powerful men of Aiki are so full of what you have given them in excess that they can't fit themselves out through the small window of hope that I have been alluding to. You know, the one that you blocked their access to, straight on from the beginning.

It's all good, sins of the father and all... there is always time to repent. Or is there?

Best in training to you and all...

.

Last edited by Misogi-no-Gyo : 08-10-2009 at 02:16 PM.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 08-10-2009, 02:51 PM   #709
rob_liberti
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote: View Post
I asked many questions of you that you continually choose not to answer. You do this every time I ask those questions. When I ask them rhetorically of the community at large, you know to illicit responses from people who are not you, either You, Mark, and now Rob Liberti tend to step up and use the all powerful - but Dan can stop everyone dead in their tracks to explain away that you are on the right path.
Shaun, I think my confusion with you has been that I believe you are calling "aiki", we consider to be called "do". What we are calling aiki is what the guy who taught O-sensei called aiki, but I'll call it "DR aiki" if that works better for you. It kind of begs the question as to what you consider to be "do"... And I can see why it can be confusing, for instance the point about Hikistuchi Sensei's dojo being a full contact aikido dojo in Shingu - that kind of adds a bit on context to what he was saying on youtube...

Second, if there is ever a time when you don't want me to respond to a question you pose to the community (which I felt I was a member of) just say so and generally I'm a pretty good sport about such requests.

I honestly do not *know* if Dan is on what I consider to be the right path for the "do". I'm not sure *I* am on THE right path. I just know that the path I had been on was problematic, and this latest adjustment has done me a world of good. However, please consider that if I were 100% sold on Dan's approach regarding the "do," I would not be continuing to ask to come meet you and work on misogi things. So if you and I are in (or still in) some sort of disagreement, please send me a PM.

Rob

old mcdojo had a form, aiki aiki do...
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Old 08-10-2009, 04:25 PM   #710
DH
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote: View Post
Hi Dan,
Thanks for your thoughtful posts. Clearly I have managed to make you feel that it is necessary to attack me from that corner you found yourself backed into.....
....Wonderful, Dan. Good on you, mate! It will be very interesting to see what all the powerful folks you develop will do when (metaphorically speaking) the building is on fire, and the door to the room you let people in through is blocked and all those wonderful, powerful men of Aiki are so full of what you have given them in excess that they can't fit themselves out through the small window of hope that I have been alluding to. You know, the one that you blocked their access to, straight on from the beginning.

It's all good, sins of the father and all... there is always time to repent. Or is there?

Best in training to you and all...
Rant off

Er...what? I suspect that they like me will help everyone out before them and offer them a leg up. Just like i am doing now!!
Lets stay on point.
You have offered that you have an insight into what we do from a different direction that was supposed to be pure Ueshiba; over and over.
I told you publicly that I am intrigued.
I told you privately I am intrigued.
You futhered the point by saying it wasn't just you but a group of others on a list.
That got me more intrigued!
I asked to meet you or them or have you describe publicly, then privately; what it was or how you do it.

You have done nothing but blow me off.

I am sorry you feel this level of emotion. There are more than a few of us who are not playing word games but are very interested in what you are saying. What would cause you to go overboard like this?
I hate the disengenouos nonsense on the web. I told you that publcily and privately; that I am sincerely interested and I would like to come to N.Y and feel what you got and go to dinner and over looong drinks talk about Stan's research and your own (remember that?). We said if that works out to go to Osaka together and see if this is a real path with some credible teaching that has physical results.
It's not a heavy hand, Shaun. It's respect and interest.

Have you considered that you might have something to offer? And that you need to go beyond yourself and share it and let the community decide its value to them and their search? What if you can offer me or someone else a leg up? It's not always about power Shaun. We are supposed to be an open hand, remember?
Gees
Dan

Last edited by DH : 08-10-2009 at 04:32 PM.
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Old 08-10-2009, 09:33 PM   #711
stan baker
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Hi Shaun,
I am not sure what this talk is all about, but I would be happy to come to NY and practice with you, to much mumbo jumbo. Lets train and share something real.

stan
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Old 08-12-2009, 08:26 AM   #712
Mark Mueller
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post

How about we follow the standard that was set and demanded here.

1. Why don't you step up and clearly define Ueshiba's spirituality____________________________?
2. How, and where did his spirituality physically affect and manifest itself directly into the physical body without physical training_________________?
3. If you are arguing that -like we say- it is a physical training process but it produces different results-state what our results are and where and how they differ from yours___________________?
3. Who are the aikido teachers you keep talking about who "got it?"
4. Have they produced written works?
5. Can they- upon testing- do the same things Ueshiba did?
6. Can I go around you (with the people I know) and meet and test them?

In short, in light of your professed spiritual search- it seems you really aren't interested in helping anyone but yourself. Don't you think the best thing to do is to give Aikido to the world?
Where did I hear that before?
Thanks
Dan
Damn Dan....sounds like you are channeling Jim Sorrentino! Sorry!...couldn't resist! just kidding
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Old 08-12-2009, 09:22 AM   #713
DH
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Mark Mueller wrote: View Post
Damn Dan....sounds like you are channeling Jim Sorrentino! Sorry!...couldn't resist! just kidding
Hello, Mark.
There are some rather interesting differences in overall approach. Though no one was more pleased with the eventual results of those exchanges than I.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 08-12-2009, 09:59 AM   #714
Mark Mueller
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

I would agree...but I heard you had a sense of humor and couldn't resist the poke.
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Old 08-20-2009, 10:55 PM   #715
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

so this thread is done?..

I can go home now?
<applies dim mak>
aaha
i often feel that way after i post.

you know why they say truth is stranger than fiction?
a:because we invented fiction to suit ourselves.

fwiw; i think that we should not redefine words and terms. in other threads that was mentioned. also something about fat dumb and happy. words have to mean what they say. that;s all i'm saying.
Cheers,
Josh
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Old 08-21-2009, 12:02 AM   #716
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Since I dredged this thread from the abyss...
For the Thread:
I think that ~it~ will remain missing in most everybody's aikido.
It was never missing in everybody's aikido. Well, it was, until they were told of ~aiki~ if that is the ~it~, and then had time to change their body to mainfest it. (if we are to believe the stories). ,,but that is another story.

It is missing in somebody's. Most peoples, i would say, in fact. It is hard and will therefore be elusive. No one suggests it will be common, do they? just that it exists and is the highest mode to directly train martial ability. Maybe aikido would be waaay too hardcore if everyone was required to be doing it. Is everyone capable of doing it, within reason? Or is it practically impossible in some cases? I read of some fellow who is reportedly quite amazing who is wheelchair bound.
Would think being to train ~it~ even to some weak level could at least help to hold your body together as you age and slump over time. Agree?
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