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Old 08-07-2009, 05:48 AM   #1
dalen7
 
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Sumi Otoshi

At some point I began to sit back and wonder to myself... "perhaps I have gone far enough in learning the techniques of Aikido, no need to learn more". lol
[note: did not say not to practice and hone what has already been learned.]

First was Koshinage and now Sumi Otoshi.
Now from the looks of it, Sumi Otoshi looks easy - after all you see it on Youtube and in the dojo from the higher kyu ranks and it looks straight forward.

Some may argue if I can do Koshinage now, I can do Sumi Otoshi without a hitch. [though grabbing the guys gi and trying to drag him down to the floor with me, as one fellow aikiweb member pointed out, helped out a lot in that technique.]

With this new technique Im hitting my shoulder, landing awkward on my foot, and Ill be honest, had some less than pleasant experiences with the lower extremities upon landing. [something I avoided in Koshinage somehow, now Im landing awkward.]

From one perspective I question the validity of needing to know such ukemi except for show. I mean if someone who didnt know better looked at the move they would swear that the guy is grabbing one arm and throwing you over. [when far from true, Im just standing there or shoved to the ground if I dont start the acrobatics... there is much effort on the ukes part, and in truth I feel more comfortable with my two feet toward the ground.]

Now I dont want to start a debate over its effectiveness, the point is this is a technique that just doesnt feel home to me, so its easier to notice the apparent lack of validity in such a move.
[i.e. my other hand coming around to hook the guys face, etc.] lol

In truth, I would like to, safely, learn how to do this. I thought I found a way, I tried to do a normal mae ukemi type move, which seemed to work, but the guy i was training with said I needed to have my feet up more in the air.

Of course this being a Hungarian/English conversation its hard to get the exact point of the whats and whys of this... and Im sure given enough time I can do this. [Its for my next test, which is a good time off yet as I only tested last month, none-the-less, its staring me in the face each time I look at the paper.]

Any tips, are welcome, the videos on youtube dont really add anything extra as far as guidance as to what I may be doing wrong.

Who knows, maybe I have reached my zenith in leaning Aikido techniques and need to wait till I can train in a language I fully understand as to get the subtleties that I am missing in regards to how to do the techniques, etc.

That is about it, though, isnt it, as far as flying techniques in Aikido? [Koshinage, Sumi Otoshi, - and kotegaeshi for those up to it?]

Peace

dAlen

Last edited by dalen7 : 08-07-2009 at 05:51 AM.

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Old 08-07-2009, 08:05 AM   #2
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Sumi Otoshi

Find someone who can really perform the waza with you. The ukemi will work itself out from there. If they can really do it, it should take your hand on their wrist (with their blade hand inside their wrist) and two fingers from their other hand on your arm.

If they can't really do it, then just cooperate when they go to take your balance, and again, the ukemi should come pretty naturally from there. Fighting the waza (planting, not giving up your balance) at the learning stage won't show you the path for the ukemi (it will give you a nice entry to the hook, as you mentioned).

Best,
Ron

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Old 08-07-2009, 08:18 AM   #3
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Re: Sumi Otoshi

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Find someone who can really perform the waza with you. The ukemi will work itself out from there. If they can really do it, it should take your hand on their wrist (with their blade hand inside their wrist) and two fingers from their other hand on your arm.

If they can't really do it, then just cooperate when they go to take your balance, and again, the ukemi should come pretty naturally from there. Fighting the waza (planting, not giving up your balance) at the learning stage won't show you the path for the ukemi (it will give you a nice entry to the hook, as you mentioned).

Best,
Ron
Thanks Ron,

perhaps Im just over complicating it in my mind... been known to happen. [that and my unease with throwing my feet in the air.]

But I will concentrate on keeping it feeling natural...

Peace

dAlen

p.s.
Am I taking their wrist and using it as a leverage to push myself up and over?

Last edited by dalen7 : 08-07-2009 at 08:20 AM.

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Old 08-07-2009, 08:56 AM   #4
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Sumi Otoshi

No, they should be taking your balance first, and your feet going over (if they really throw you) will not be really your choice. Look at some of the clips that come up in a google video search. You'll notice that many leave the thrower open to that hook you mention.

Then look at the examples of

Donovan Waite for the far distance version of the throw,

the shodokan (tomiki) ones for a different variation against resistance (rarely will you see the feet go flying up),

then look at some of the judo ones for close distance versions of the throw.

With Donovan Waite (aikikai) notice how he ALWAYS opens uke up PRIOR to entering for the throw to negate the hook response. Far distance on that throw is always risky...because of the hook. The real reason for uke to turn in is to keep attacking, either by grabbing, hooking, what ever.

If you want uke's feet to fly, you have to take the balance first, then either kneel on the throw, or enter fast, hard, and deep for the throw. There is a judo clip out there (close distance) where shite gets the feet on uke pretty high, but there is a huge commitment of shite's weight on that one. Judoka will know the counter to it...

Best,
Ron

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Old 08-07-2009, 09:09 AM   #5
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Re: Sumi Otoshi

In my experience, the ukemi for sumi otoshi varies quite a bit by where in your own spere you're being dropped, and what you're doing when nage drops you (as Ron mentioned, there are various versions). Anything from a side/forward roll to a back high fall. I think I even ended up doing a crazy forward flip in the air once; when sensei seemed to leave a opening in time, I started to step around with a strike to his head, and just as my weight shifted...

I'd say it's the in-between ones that throw one off. I'd say just try to feel what's happening, and let your ukemi slide into one of the ukemi techniques that you feel safe with.

As for those being the only flying ukemi... ha ha

I am not an expert
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Old 08-07-2009, 09:16 AM   #6
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Sumi Otoshi

By the way...NONE of those throws will work on Dan. Not Mike either I don't think. Probably not on Rob John (who is MUCH smaller than the other two). Structure will negate such a crude method of taking their balance.

If you want to know if you really broke their balance and controled them, put on an old doji top, give them a magic marker, then do the throw. 9 times out of ten I bet they mark you with the marker. If they do, don't ever try that throw when someone has a knife in the other hand...

B,
R (yes, Rob L., I see you lurking... )

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Old 08-07-2009, 09:36 AM   #7
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Re: Sumi Otoshi

It really depends. You could take a simple backwards ukemi or you could do a forward roll. If I am going to roll, I find it easier if you look and sllightly turn in the direction of where your hand is pointing. Then (at least for me) the forward roll just seems to come naturally. I had a hard time rolling from kotegaishi until one of my sempais told me that little trick. Now it is a lot easier.

Took me a while to understand that you could do a forward roll going backwards... baffled me for at least a couple months after starting aikido. I thought it was some magic trick at first.... HAHA.

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Old 08-07-2009, 09:56 AM   #8
Janet Rosen
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Re: Sumi Otoshi

Unless nage is doing something that elicits a turn in uke, uke can just do a back fall.
As opposed to, say, jujinage.... :-)

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Old 08-07-2009, 10:15 AM   #9
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Re: Sumi Otoshi

Quote:
Ashley Carter wrote: View Post
It really depends. You could take a simple backwards ukemi or you could do a forward roll. If I am going to roll, I find it easier if you look and sllightly turn in the direction of where your hand is pointing. Then (at least for me) the forward roll just seems to come naturally.
Well I suppose its just a matter of practice... Thursday was my first time ever attempting Sumi Otoshi.. [Though I have done Jujinage in a seminar... minus the fancy flipping, dont ask me how it worked cause I really dont remember as it was about 2 years ago.]

Thinking back to Thursdays training, the guy I was training with was putting emphasis, from what I could understand of the Hungarian, to push my legs high in the air with the momentum similar to when doing a handstand. [He actually showed a handstand type move followed by a roll.]

I couldnt quite follow why/how you needed so much more momentum apparently than what the technique looked like it required when at the same time he seemed to emphasize that the movement should be soft & controlled, which is kind of hard with the handstand analogy...anyway, Ill figure this all out eventually.

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Unless nage is doing something that elicits a turn in uke, uke can just do a back fall.
As opposed to, say, jujinage.... :-)
As mentioned above I recall doing Jujinage, with the caveat Im not sure you can call it that after looking at the youtube clip with the ukemi...lol - that ukemi looked like what I was trying to do with Sumi Otoshi.. [Somehow it all fits together, my ukemi does need some work, to say the least, that is if I dont want to end up like one guy who got sent to the hospital after bad ukemi on one of these more 'advanced' techniques.]

Luckily Jujinage doesnt appear to be on any of the kyu exams [have to double check 1st, but I know its not on my next exam... at least I hope not.]

Wonder if "crumpling" counts as ukemi.

Peace

dAlen

Last edited by dalen7 : 08-07-2009 at 10:28 AM.

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Old 08-07-2009, 10:37 AM   #10
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Re: Sumi Otoshi

Just as an added note to my above post:

Apparently I have 2 techniques in this next level which share a similar ukemi.

Sumi Otoshi & kubi Nage.

Didnt see the term Juji Nage listed in the kyu ranks but for 1st Kyu we have several versions of "Otoshi" - as well as Juji Garami, which shares again a similar looking ukemi to Sumi Otoshi, etc.

Point is, oh boy... quite a lot of this flying Aikido stuff. [Heres hoping that its simpler than it looks.]

Would you say koshinage is easier or harder than Sumi Otoshi?
[As I can now do the former as long as Im holding the gi... suppose some people can flip regardless.]

Peace

dAlen

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Old 08-07-2009, 10:50 AM   #11
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Re: Sumi Otoshi

Somehow I missed both Ron & Jeremys post...
The post helped to put a better perspective on this as I was under the impression I needed to 'fly' as it were... and its good to know I can just relax and not be the acrobat. [Hurts that way!]

Quote:
Jeremy Morrison wrote: View Post
In my experience, the ukemi for sumi otoshi varies quite a bit by where in your own spere you're being dropped, and what you're doing when nage drops you (as Ron mentioned, there are various versions).

...As for those being the only flying ukemi... ha ha
Thanks Jeremy, your post helped to put things into a clearer perspective.

As for your last comment... yeah, I was just looking at the other techniques on youtube, i.e, Kubi Nage, etc. and realized there are some more of these flying techniques out there... hmmm

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
By the way...NONE of those throws will work on Dan. Not Mike either I don't think. Probably not on Rob John (who is MUCH smaller than the other two). Structure will negate such a crude method of taking their balance.
Ron thanks, you helped me to get a clearer picture... [its not so boxed in now as to what to expect, and so I have a better feeling now as to what I need to do.] Thanks... of course its just down to needing to practice. - one main issue is my landing on my shoulder... since I dont have my arm available as a guide to soften the roll, it just seems a bit awkward... definitely different than landing from koshinage.

... and then there is that whole bit about structure you brought up.

Peace,

dAlen

Last edited by dalen7 : 08-07-2009 at 11:04 AM.

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Old 08-07-2009, 11:07 AM   #12
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Sumi Otoshi

Reach with the back hand behind you as you go over to touch with that first, almost like lowering yourself to the ground. One version of that is called "falling leaf" if that gives you a better idea. Important part is to tuck your head. Start with shite holding on all the way through the throw at first, work up to shite releasing you.

Oh, and DON'T let your legs slap together. "Things" will get "caught"...you'll regret it! Keep one leg straight and the other bent. Generally the side that you slap with is straight, the other bent, the shock absorbed on the ball of the foot of the bent leg.

Best,
Ron

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 08-07-2009 at 11:11 AM.

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Old 08-07-2009, 01:53 PM   #13
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Re: Sumi Otoshi

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Oh, and DON'T let your legs slap together. "Things" will get "caught"...you'll regret it! Keep one leg straight and the other bent. Generally the side that you slap with is straight, the other bent, the shock absorbed on the ball of the foot of the bent leg.

Best,
Ron
yep... they did. [hate to admit it]
Though I think that will be the last time that happens.

- dalen

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Old 08-07-2009, 02:34 PM   #14
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Re: Sumi Otoshi

LOL. Yeah, most of us only do that once....

B,
R

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Old 08-07-2009, 03:50 PM   #15
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Re: Sumi Otoshi

Do an ushiro yoko fall (back - side fall) from Sumi Otoshi. Watch how Donovan Waite's students do it. I would think trying to go into a front roll would be very awkward. If Nage has given you any sort of a good lead (taken your balance), your feet will fly up "in the air" all by themselves. The only key is to relax.
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Old 08-07-2009, 03:58 PM   #16
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Re: Sumi Otoshi

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
the shodokan (tomiki) ones for a different variation against resistance (rarely will you see the feet go flying up),
Just took a look at the Tomiki version, and to be honest this seems more realistic. [if I could take ukemi like that I would save myself some of the various injuries I encountered the other day.]

I see the star rating wasnt high on this, perhaps because of lack of show...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZcUsFX-yFs

Peace

dAlen

Last edited by dalen7 : 08-07-2009 at 04:03 PM.

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Old 08-07-2009, 04:02 PM   #17
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Re: Sumi Otoshi

Quote:
Kevin Karr wrote: View Post
Do an ushiro yoko fall (back - side fall) from Sumi Otoshi. Watch how Donovan Waite's students do it. I would think trying to go into a front roll would be very awkward. If Nage has given you any sort of a good lead (taken your balance), your feet will fly up "in the air" all by themselves. The only key is to relax.
Here is a Donovan Waite clip - nice ukemi for sure, but the idea of the feet flipping naturally... not sure what my hang up was the other day. [suppose I have to give myself a break as it was my first time being exposed to this particular technique.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPO9Sn2Wu9U

Suppose your right, I wanted to control the movement going into it... hmmm [feel like Neo when he was told he had to 'let it go', and he wasnt quite sure he could do it... and of course we know what happened.]

Peace

dAlen

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Old 08-07-2009, 09:40 PM   #18
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Re: Sumi Otoshi

Try my advice along with the others here. I am sure that one of them will click and work for you.

~Look into the eyes of your opponent & steal his spirit.
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Old 08-08-2009, 12:31 AM   #19
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Re: Sumi Otoshi

Quote:
Ashley Carter wrote: View Post
Try my advice along with the others here. I am sure that one of them will click and work for you.
Definitely every explanation has helped to further clarify things and give a broader perspective into the question at hand, so I appreciate everyones input - it has been helpful. [now time to just try things out as you said.]

Peace

dAlen

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Old 08-08-2009, 03:53 PM   #20
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Re: Sumi Otoshi

Keep us updated! It is strange that you can hear things 50 different ways and you still don't get it. Then someone comes along and explains it just a tad differently and the light bulb finally turns on.

~Look into the eyes of your opponent & steal his spirit.
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Old 08-08-2009, 06:06 PM   #21
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Re: Sumi Otoshi

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
No, they should be taking your balance first, and your feet going over (if they really throw you) will not be really your choice.
Ron
This what I call the difference between "Doing Ukemi and Taking Ukemi"

Ukemi Waza is all about recieving and knowing how to recieve.

Ukemi should not be you throwing yourself in the air-Doing Ukemi
Ukemi should be Nage unbalancing you and throwing you, but you still having control to protect yourself as you fall-Taking Ukemi.

The example I like to use is Kotegeashi. Nage throws kotegaeshi and has no power or movement or kuzushi behind it, so he waits for you to "Do Ukemi" instead of doing the technique properly and all you have to do is recieve his throw.

Hope that makes sense.
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Old 08-10-2009, 02:51 AM   #22
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Re: Sumi Otoshi

Dear Dalen.

I think sumi otoshi, if well done by tori, is one of the techniques where you don't have a chance at all to direct your fall and try to get out of it via ushiro or mae ukemi. That works if tori does it slowly, gently or awkwardly (like myself).

We did sumi otoshi here in Istanbul (my vacation dojo) this Saturday, and mine was, as always, not efficient enough. So I asked the teacher to show me a) what was wrong with mine and b) what you could do to get full control over the throw. He showed me, and it was so swift and powerful that I went flying and made an enormous fall - there wouldn't have been a way NOT to take this ukemi, and it was far to quick to change its direction. What you always can do is try to buffer the fall with your free hand (turning it quickly over your back as Ron indicated; you can find that in You Tube looking for "tobu ukemi"), but that works only if you do it instinctively because you practiced it 1000 times before.

But then I think no one would ever throw you that way if he weren't pretty much sure that you CAN do that fall without danger.

Wish you much look - I always have all sorts of problems on the other side of the techniques: performing sumi otoshi or koshi nage on others....but at least it works on the receiving end

Best regards,

Eva
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Old 08-10-2009, 05:23 AM   #23
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Re: Sumi Otoshi

Hi

What Donovan Waite schows here, is called kokyu nage in our aikido.
You throw by the contact at the shoulder or ellbow.

When doing sumi otoshi "our way" there is no contact at shoulder or arm, but the feet/knee are blocked in the kneeling version (1:14) or the hips are blocked the same way in the standing version(1:20).

This version of sumi otoshi as Eva Antonia states, does not allow mae ukemi or ushiro ukemi if proper done, because knees or hips are blocked.

Carsten
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Old 08-11-2009, 01:53 AM   #24
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Re: Sumi Otoshi

I forgott:

In both versions there is no possibility for a hook if proper done.
In the first version because of atemi, in the second because of the kuzushi

Carsten
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Old 08-11-2009, 06:58 AM   #25
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Re: Sumi Otoshi

Thank you for the comments Jason, Eva & Carsten.

Peace

dAlen

Quote:
Jason Jordan wrote: View Post
The example I like to use is Kotegeashi. Nage throws kotegaeshi and has no power or movement or kuzushi behind it, so he waits for you to "Do Ukemi" instead of doing the technique properly and all you have to do is recieve his throw.

Hope that makes sense.
Quote:
Eva Röben wrote: View Post

Wish you much luck - I always have all sorts of problems on the other side of the techniques: performing sumi otoshi or koshi nage on others....but at least it works on the receiving end

Best regards,

Eva
Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
I forgott:

In both versions there is no possibility for a hook if proper done.
In the first version because of atemi, in the second because of the kuzushi

Carsten

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