Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-05-2009, 01:10 PM   #576
rob_liberti
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Connecticut
Location: East Haven, CT
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,402
United_States
Offline
Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

That hanmi shown on David's last link is good for straight external power and good for pivoting. I avoid it. It is a clear indication that IT is missing in aikido.

old mcdojo had a form, aiki aiki do...
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2009, 01:14 PM   #577
jss
Location: Rotterdam
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 459
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
That hanmi shown on David's last link is good for straight external power and good for pivoting. I avoid it. It is a clear indication that IT is missing in aikido.
Then what is your favorite posture for IT and why?
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2009, 01:16 PM   #578
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
While good points in and of themselves- another caution needs to be interjected.
There is a history of aikido teachers-including shihan- training in taiji, koryu and other arts that have internal aspects and bringing that training into their aikido. Then you have the classic-Tohei- who went outside the art as well to bring in skills that saw him recognized and promoted to 10th dan, and then Shioda who went to DR etc etc. So, I think the final arbiter of what is good for aikido might best be left to those in it- to judge for themselves- once they train with various sources.
Actually, that same argument has been made by a lot of Tai Chi teachers, too, in line with the issue I mentioned. One woman even tole me, "We do American Tai Chi... like in so many situations, we took something from someplace else and made it better.". I'm not particularly going to make a point I've already made that is in the archives about Ueshiba's training methods, Tohei's training methods, etc.
Quote:
I would hate to presume or make it sound like Aikido teachers are stupid or ignorant, and have no ability to discern what is good for their art. I have found them -thus far- to be pretty good judges of what might fit or not, and where things can be incorporated without changing their art. Aikido is fluid enough to allow for personal expression. Something which remains one of the strengths of the art.
Well, considering the years of conversations on the topic and the newness of the skills to a lot of people... well, I'll take your word for it, Dan.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2009, 01:20 PM   #579
Eric Joyce
Dojo: Budoshingikan
Location: Gilbert, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 179
United_States
Offline
Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
"What's the Frequency, Kenneth?" Success is always proportional to skill even in this framework. I agree there is a driven frequency. I agree there is a chaotic collapse. I do not necessarily agree that the two rhythms are discordant. They are in fact harmonic.

While it is true that a discordant chaotic pulse (also known, technically speaking, as "hammering the crap out of somebody") can create a resulting chaotic movement, it also just naturally results from a driven harmonic at a fundamental frequency, which erupts into a resonant chaos.

The result suggests the latter -- and the reflexive head bob is, in my view, conclusive, and the reflexive triggering of the leg extensors ( ryote) and flexors (katate) in succession is quite apparent. The grossly noticeable buckling/shimmy thing going on is a sure sign. Just arbitrarily snatching on or beating into someone's structure does not do that. Of course, if you know what is happening and can do it, you can damp it by a similar means, which involves no leverage.

Ark is popping the guy's gamma motor spindles and Golgi tendon organs. Think of them like structural circuit breakers. Driven resonance goes asymptotic and becomes destructive very quickly. The body does not have the margin to wait for conscious feedback in that case. Either it reflexively acts or it risks a stability loss (or structural damage) that is not recoverable.

Simple harmonic action is linear. Complex harmonic action is non-linear and resonant. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_pendulum
My arm is a double pendulum. The upper and lower centers form a double inverted pendulum Two people (simplified) can be considered double inverted pendulums. A multiple n-pendulum as n becomes > ~ 3 is a chain.

Driven resonance (90 degrees out of phase -- temporally, spatially or BOTH ) at a whole number frequency within the pahse space leads to chaotic movement. Resonance (at the fundamental frequency of a structure) will find any discontinuity in a the shear path in that system and collapse it at that point. Furitama is that fundamental frequency. Funetori undo, ude furi, sayu undo, happo undo, all define the limits of a moving phase space for a periodic dynamic stability region (the length of one simple natural pendulum swing) all of which can be made harmonic spatially (i.e -- 90 degree or Juuji 十字] relationship) with connected another phase space when they interact -- as the the two pendulums do when linked.

On the third one, that you did not mention, Mr. Chen. In the animation above, if the two pendulum are seen as crude representations of the two bodies connected, the periods where the system undergoes the single or doubled "whoop-de-do" rotations of the lower pendulum -- correspond to the throwing opportunities in the complex phase space, as used by Mr. Chen. The other periodic back and forth in-phase, leading phase or lagging phase oscillations where there is no full rotation are the "wait for it" part. Where it is commencing a full rotation -- that suddenly becomes "downhill" in the phase space for a throw -- and a throw if you go with it. Surf the break, man. If you attempt a throw anywhere else in that phase space -- you are working seriously uphill, and are likely to get caught inside.

The boundary of the above 2D pendulums figure may viewed as a the projection of a limacon, (the pedal of a circle) rotated around the axis of its cusp. Roughly, imagine seeing the profile of a squat apple shape constructed of loops of yarn with a deep cusp at the stem and a hollow teardrop core -- See below), or like a doughnut contracted to the point that the inner ring overlaps itself to make the center hole an internal lozenge or teardrop volume.

If you consider and look for the related bounding figures (cycloids and trochoids) of this kind of action. you have some better concrete imagery to prime your intuition about the spatial boundaries of the dynamics you are trying to achieve (regardless of scale -- the cusp can be arbitrarily large or miniscule) --- and the pedal curve (below) shows the explicit presence of juuji in the relationship.

Limacon

Another family of boundary curves of useful interest where cusp discontinuity and shear are immediately evident and yet have a seamless transition are the hyperboloids, catenoids and helicoids:
Wow!! That is some cool stuff Erick. I hope you work for NASA or something. Simply fascinating.

Eric Joyce
Otake Han Doshin Ryu Jujutsu
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2009, 01:31 PM   #580
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,896
United_States
Offline
Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
Then what is your favorite posture for IT and why?
prefer this posture meself. http://www.iwatchstuff.com/images/20...t-terror-2.jpg
no missing IT in that pose
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2009, 01:39 PM   #581
rob_liberti
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Connecticut
Location: East Haven, CT
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,402
United_States
Offline
Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
Then what is your favorite posture for IT and why?
If you are into yoga, I would say my favorite foot orientation is closer to warrior1 than warrior2.

I'm a bit distracted by all of the spinning graphics that somehow bring into my mind this scene of a slick salesman that is trying to sell a piece of modern art; where it is not selling, so the salesman rotates it 90 degrees, waves his arms back and forth, and says, WHAT ABOUT NOW?! I'm just not buying what is being sold on that. I'm sure some physical model's apply but they are doubtfully complete or in any way useful thus far. I strongly doubt that IT will be found in aikido by working that out in this thread.

The fact is that IT exists, and is coming to aikido. And anything about IT already being in aikido to the depth we are talking about or that IT is not coming pretty much brings to mind the term "polite fiction" at best. IT is the elephant in the room that will hopefully be in your own dojo sooner or later.

Rob

old mcdojo had a form, aiki aiki do...
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2009, 03:14 PM   #582
jss
Location: Rotterdam
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 459
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
If you are into yoga, I would say my favorite foot orientation is closer to warrior1 than warrior2.
You mean as in the back foot rather pointing west-northwest than west? (when facing North.)
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2009, 03:16 PM   #583
Misogi-no-Gyo
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 498
Offline
Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

David (the OP) made the following statement and then asks us a follow-up question.
Quote:
David Scaggs wrote:
it is a soap box for everyone to stand on within the confines of the thread topic. The thread has gone on for 532 posts. Do you think the discussion was worthwhile?
I have personally stated that this thread, above many other great threads in the past, has been a turning point for me. I am sure that the adage, "...timing is everything..." is also at play.Had this exact thread come up just a few years ago, it would have played out just the same as threads from back at that time. This time around there are many of the same voices, mine included saying many of the same things. However, I do believe that the cloud of suspicion, the fear of the unknown and the experience of people coming together to train have brought us all forward - at least enough so that there is a consensus among us that allows for greater understanding and has brought forth enough common ground that the differences in what is being discussed can be put aside long enough to focus on that which is similar.

Mike, Dan and I, our students, training partners and those casual readers that cheer us on via the internet, and to some extent even our detractors can be said to agree on many things and disagree on many things. That doesn't make any of us right, or wrong for that matter. It may come out that we are each a bit right and a bit wrong. Ultimately, the martial arts community has already been effected by our dialogue and debates. AikiWeb is only one forum and there are others. Whether they be on the net, in our private conversations with each other, via email or on the mat, it is often the case that when people come together and share ideas and experience perspectives other than our own - we grow.

If all that is accomplished by this thread is an acknowledgment of that progress then I can say that this thread should be permanently marked in some way so that others seeking to enhance their current level of training can easily find it separated from the vast AikiWeb archive.

To go further, I believe the thread has been effective on multiple levels. This also sets it apart, and in my opinion, above many of its predecessors. While my above paragraphs speak to the benefit of recognizing the similarities I would like to highlight what Mike has said (quote, below) which point to the importance of the differences, too. It is the differences that make Aikido what it is and what separates it from other martial arts. With that, he draws a line, one that is a clear line of demarcation, one from which there is no returning.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
...
The point is that some concern has to be had about people inserting various other arts/origins into Aikido in ways that fundamentally change Aikido while the effort is being made to put "IT" back into Aikido. I've made that same point for a number of years now... sorry... but I think it's an important consideration. Put back what's "missing", sure. "Change" Aikido, no (hmmmm.... would that be Obamaikido?).

FWIW

Mike Sigman
I am not pointing to that quote and saying this it the first time he has said this, (while that may be the case) but rather that this is the premier point I have been trying to make (to Mike, Dan and others) all along. Obviously I completely agree with Mike. I don't say this lightly, nor from a place of authority. I say it from a place of that which I have had the pleasure and honor to have experienced, something I hope to have the opportunity to share at some point in time.

I look forward to that time, indeed. I am sure that just as in the past few years, as much passion, effort dialogue and debate will go into the illumination of that idea and that the process that comes forth from it will again focus a light on that which has always been at the center of Aikido all along. I say all of this in the spirit with which my teachers have shared their thoughts, ideas and experience with me, that being, "...If we, as teachers do our jobs right, our students will have the tools with which to surpass us in every way."


Best in training to all...

.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2009, 03:36 PM   #584
Min Kang
Dojo: Aikido Shobukan Dojo
Location: Arlington, Virginia
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 34
United_States
Offline
Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Wow.

I don't presume to have trained nearly as long as many posters have, and I certainly don't presume to have as much skill or knowledge. But in sixteen years of Aikido training, and a smattering of this and that beforehand, I can pretty much tell what works and doesn't, and sometimes, even why it works or doesn't

I first felt Gleason Sensei fifteen years ago and he was very, very good. I felt him several years ago and he was better. I felt him this year and he was better in an eye-opening *different* way. There was a VERY palpable difference in his structure and movement. I understand he trains with Dan Harden - and I would jump at the chance to train with Dan.

Similarly, Ikeda Sensei has evolved over the years I've seen him and felt him. And I would leap at the opportunity if I have a chance to train with Mike Sigman.

I give the benefit of doubt to those respected by people I respect, but bottom line: I personally felt the difference in these two very accomplished martial artists - and man, I'm excited not only by where their aikido is going, but by the fact that these very senior people had the confidence and courage to step out of their comfort zone and challenge themselves, and learn.

They that have power to hurt and will do none,
That do not do the thing they most do show,
Who, moving others, are themselves as stone ...
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2009, 04:17 PM   #585
donhebert
Dojo: River Valley Aikido
Location: Vermont
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 51
United_States
Offline
Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Hi All,

I have been very interested in this discussion regarding what might be missing from Aikido. Having practiced Aikido for good many years I find myself continually drawn back to the fundamental question of why do I continue to practice this art. The way I see it practiced and what I often encounter on the mat as I practice in different venues can be discouraging.

To simplify my perspective, let's say that the fundamentals of Aikido can exist along a spectrum that has martial effectiveness on one end and spiritual attainment on the other. I believe that O'Sensei's vision was to somehow unify these two elements so as to enrich the life of the practitioner as well as the condition of society. It is difficult to interpret O'Sensei from modern day America. He was from a very different era and culture and was considered a bit of an anachronism even in his own time. Who knows what he would make of today's spiritual paths or transpersonal psychology, just to give an example. In any case, he deeply pursued martial effectiveness and in doing so came to feel a need to place this skill into a context of larger meaning.

Most of the discussions on this forum appear to be concerned with Aikido's effectiveness as a martial art, the physical end of spectrum. Aikido is susceptible to criticism along these lines. Most aikidoists I know do not have a strong martial ability. Even the ones that do seem to obtain it via their size, attitude, agility, etc. but not really because they have learned some sort of powerful aiki. I will be the first to admit that I don't have a natural proclivity for fighting. My natural impulse is to be retiring and avoid confrontation. This, of course, is why Aikido is good for me. It pushes on my edges and thus makes me grow. However, investing lots of effort into embodying martial power for its own sake is not very nourishing to me. In fact it is ultimately disheartening. There world is full of violence for its own sake and seductiveness of martial prowess has lead to many disasters. Aren't there better ways to spend my very short life?

Interestingly, the spiritual side of Aikido can only be explored from a place of martial integrity. It is the dangerous side of the art that makes me confront myself, the nature of war and conflict, the problem of suffering, the potential for reconciliation, the fear that manifests itself in my movements, the power of kindness. So if I have inclination to explore the meaning of my life and how I participate in the world, the martial edge of my practice is what helps me really make progress.

The problem I see in the current state of Aikido is that we are at risk at losing both ends of the spectrum and ending up with a kind of a ghost of an art. If we are in need of re-introducing true aiki skills into the art to make it martially real, then I would also say we also have a big problem on the spiritual side. Allowing that many of the shihan level instructors can exhibit martial skill, very few of them seem to have anything to say about spirituality. In fact, most them seem unable to model a spiritual path and are all too human and dysfunctional. If our teachers are not manifesting this, then how is it getting taught? Why continue to associate spirituality with Aikido? If fake martial ability is bad, fake spirituality is even worse. Going deeper, what would it mean for Aikido to be spiritual? How can we practice and teach it? Are there training methods analogous to Dan's aiki training will help us to grow as human beings? What can happen during training that is true spiritual work?

These are important questions for me personally and perhaps many who are reading this are not troubled by them. However, I just recently read a quote from a holy man that unless one is on the verge of abandoning a chosen path, then one isn't really seeking. I don't know how true this is, but I found it encouraging all the same.

Best regards,

Don Hebert

PS. I went to Dan's seminar last weekend and it was absolutely amazing. Dan is a powerful martial artist and a gifted teacher. I find myself at looking at the bottom rung a dauntingly tall ladder. Everything I do in Aikido is going to change.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2009, 05:48 PM   #586
rob_liberti
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Connecticut
Location: East Haven, CT
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,402
United_States
Offline
Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Q: Are there training methods analogous to Dan's aiki training will help us to grow as human beings?

my Answer: I have been investigating Rod Stryker's parayoga. So far it is in line with all of the body conditioning that Dan is trying to burn into me. I have also been very impressed by a shaman connected to http://www.thefourwinds.com

Q: What can happen during training that is true spiritual work?

my Answer: I think we have to investigate having REAL CHOICE about protecting or maximum damage, and get away from so much finesse to control (avoid feeling) and avoid exposing yor structural weaknesses.

But that's just my approach. I also think learning universal principles of kotodama based on the eperience of manifesting universal principles of aiki is important as well as the misogi exercises Shaun knows about.

Rob

old mcdojo had a form, aiki aiki do...
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2009, 06:09 PM   #587
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
United_States
Offline
Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Rob, have you had any experience with Rod Stryker? just curious as to what you think might be unique or different about his approach to yoga that is applicable.

  Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2009, 07:11 PM   #588
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
Depends if you're doing the work during the standing or not. But I think you can use the hanmi stance, it's similar enough to what this Yiquan guy is using:


Now that's interesting. Being immovable while maintaining just one of the three pairs of opposing forces...
Hmmm... "looks" similar, but it's not... there are a few key differences - one you've already pointed out. Another is where the weight is centered... and how it is distributed.

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2009, 07:19 PM   #589
Lee Salzman
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 406
Offline
Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
Hmmm... "looks" similar, but it's not... there are a few key differences - one you've already pointed out. Another is where the weight is centered... and how it is distributed.
It should be noted that how he (Yao Chengguang) is using stance there goes beyond the stance. That is one stance among many, and those stances are merely bridges to being without any fixed stance at all, such that regardless of where your body or balance is placed, force is well coordinated. The coordination is primary, the positioning is not. I would not read too much into the external appearance of it, since that's not really the goal of it at all.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2009, 08:49 PM   #590
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
It should be noted that how he (Yao Chengguang) is using stance there goes beyond the stance. That is one stance among many, and those stances are merely bridges to being without any fixed stance at all, such that regardless of where your body or balance is placed, force is well coordinated. The coordination is primary, the positioning is not. I would not read too much into the external appearance of it, since that's not really the goal of it at all.
So, how does it work, Lee?

Best.

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2009, 08:55 PM   #591
Misogi-no-Gyo
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 498
Offline
Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Rob,

While the following two quotes are yours, they echo sentiments I have been hearing from many DRAJ, CMA, internal strength proponents and the like for years. I have taken issue with what is openly being said all along. However, while I point at them, they are illustrative more about a conversion of attitude than the change in methodology that lay at their source. The latter change I understand and agree with. The former one gives me great trepidation.

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
The fact is that IT exists, and is coming to aikido. And anything about IT already being in aikido to the depth we are talking about or that IT is not coming pretty much brings to mind the term "polite fiction" at best. IT is the elephant in the room that will hopefully be in your own dojo sooner or late
and
Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
If O-Sensei were alive today and came to my dojo, I wouldn't be terribly concerned that what I was doing would be considered so much of a "change" of aikido, but I'd certainly welcome his insight.
With your first quote you seem to be making a sweeping conclusion about Aikido based upon your own limited experience. Now, I know that you have a more broad approach, both having taken your cues from many sources within Aikido and from without. Your experience is probably less than some, but I am sure more than most. At the same time, your statement tells me that you haven't had the opportunity to experience that level within Aikido. I have experienced that level and levels beyond that, too. Therefore, my conclusions differ from yours.

Your second quote frightens me even more. If O-Sensei were somehow alive and he came to my dojo, I would bow, take off my belt and carry buckets of hot water with it strewn over my back just to fill up his bath before I did anything else. After I prepared a meal for him and let him get some rest after his travels, observing him all the while I would just take ukemi from him until he was done with me. If I had the opportunity to ask any questions, well lets just say I have a whole list of them already written down. I wouldn't really ever be comfortable nor would I think be able to receive any insights at my level, and that's even if somehow as magically as he arrived, my Japanese was such to understand what he said without hesitation. Had you asked me what would Rob do? a few years ago, I would have answered, bout the same as me. Now, I am not sure...

Putting all of that aside for the moment, your next two quotes have me looking forward rather than back.
Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
I do have a fairly decent working understanding of kotodama. My influence generally comes from a synthesis of the kojiki and the Takeuchi scrolls. Somehow, I don't think Bruce was hep to that, but I could be wrong...
From my own experience, I haven't come across anyone outside of one source who had a real, working knowledge of the subject. Historical knowledge, yes... Religious take on it, sure... But a working knowledge like the one you are undertaking in internals...? Not one. Given that, I would be most interested in hearing/seeing/experiencing your take on this, Rob. In person of course...

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
What's your point? I'm all about O-sensei's aikido. I even plan to some day get together with Shaun Ravens and beg him to show me any of the misogi drills he is willing to share.
Rob, my invitation to you has been open for years... As Mike's, Dan's and others have been for me. I understand that sometimes, life, finances and other opportunities often line up against you and keep some of the things high on our list from ever happening... til the time is right, of course. My last post about a time in the future when the passions run hot for such knowledge, combined with Mike's recent point about keeping the Aikido in Aikido and understanding that merely melting in internal power, doesn't really speak in full to what might be missing from Aikido, hidden in plain sight, or openly being taught to those openly seeking it from the right sources. I have plans for when that time in the future comes to be the present. I am sure I will see you, along with many others in this very thread, there on the mat, at that time.

FWIW
I have always made the effort to be a conduit for seekers who come my way. I maintain the attitude that I am a "voice of experience than any "voice of authority." As such, anyone coming to me for anything has had the opportunity to learn directly from my teacher. Once they made their own connections, I preferred to get out of the way and encouraged them to go and get whatever they could directly from the sources I had the chance to seek out and learn from. When I met Abe Sensei he seemed very old at 77. Even then we said to ourselves, "Better make the most of the time we have..." and that is why I chose to dedicate the next 10 years of my life to tapping the source as often and as deeply as I could manage. Abe Sensei is now 94. Many things have changed in the last 17 years. That is both good and bad. There is so much more to learn, but little time within which to experience certain things first hand.There are things he is now willing to share that both eclipse and explain all of the past teachings. I can only hope to be lucky enough for things in my life to align themselves so that I can make one or two more visits. Fortunately Dan and Mike are young. Perhaps they will have even more to teach when they are in their 90's.

When I see that people seem to be after "power" of whatever sort, I am kind of dumbfounded given what really is available when it comes to understanding O-Sensei's Aikido. Power will always be there, but the sources who can and will confirm if the path you are on will lead you to the place you are seeking will not be there much longer.

Best in training to you and all...

.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2009, 09:10 PM   #592
Lee Salzman
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 406
Offline
Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
So, how does it work, Lee?

Best.

Mike Sigman
He sells a correspondence course which explains it. Last I heard, he has trouble making ends meet, so if you would be so kind as to support him by purchasing it, I am sure he would be greatful. They can be found here: http://www.yiquan.com/v3/en/index.htm

Last edited by Lee Salzman : 08-05-2009 at 09:16 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2009, 09:17 PM   #593
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
He sells a correspondence course which explains it.
Ummmm.... I've seen his correspondence course. I don't think it explains anything. More vague generalities. That's why Yiquan training by foreigners gets such a pan. Regardless, the question was directed to you, not to a correspondence course... if you're a reasonably longterm student of Yiquan, can't you explain how it works?

Best.

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2009, 09:30 PM   #594
Misogi-no-Gyo
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 498
Offline
Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Don Hebert wrote: View Post
The problem I see in the current state of Aikido is that we are at risk at losing both ends of the spectrum and ending up with a kind of a ghost of an art. If we are in need of re-introducing true aiki skills into the art to make it martially real, then I would also say we also have a big problem on the spiritual side. Allowing that many of the shihan level instructors can exhibit martial skill, very few of them seem to have anything to say about spirituality. In fact, most them seem unable to model a spiritual path and are all too human and dysfunctional. If our teachers are not manifesting this, then how is it getting taught? Why continue to associate spirituality with Aikido? If fake martial ability is bad, fake spirituality is even worse. Going deeper, what would it mean for Aikido to be spiritual? How can we practice and teach it? Are there training methods analogous to Dan's aiki training will help us to grow as human beings? What can happen during training that is true spiritual work?
Don,

You have managed to hit on the exact point I have been making all along. There seems to be so much emphasis by some to deconstruct O-Sensei's Aikido and pare it down to what they know at the sake of losing a focus on the unification of mind, body and spirit that is essential to achieving chinkon-kishin. To answer your questions, Yes - there is a method of training that O-Sensei passed down and has been taught ever since. You won't find it in many places, and that is a shame. Then again, the teaching is market driven. Even in O-Sensei's time, there were few who had both the passion for the subject and the willingness to let go of power and ego as a first step. I am not talking in the Buddhist sense, but in the real sense of letting go of one's own humanity as a first step. Interestingly enough, I had an advantage of sorts in that I had come to the table having already surmounted that great mountain by taking up another path that focused on just this sort of unification. Once achieved - and its experience is quite undeniable - O-Sensei's teachings happen to make quite a bit more sense. When be asked to let go as a way of emptying the cup, it is understood. This is as opposed to when someone says "relax," but doesn't offer a method of how in any real sense. They also don't offer any way of measuring relaxation to know when you are relaxed, so what good is that as a method of instruction. When you "become the universe" there really isn't any denial of it, and when someone tries to tell you about it you immediately know if they are just talking, or if they have actually experienced it for themselves.

Quote:
Don Hebert wrote: View Post
These are important questions for me personally and perhaps many who are reading this are not troubled by them. However, I just recently read a quote from a holy man that unless one is on the verge of abandoning a chosen path, then one isn't really seeking. I don't know how true this is, but I found it encouraging all the same.
Can't say much about the holy man's quote except I give up my path every night when I go to sleep and am often surprised that I choose to pick it up at some point the next day. As for your point, I can say that I am quite troubled. Just see my reply to Rob Liberti, above and you will see me state just that... and more...

Best in training to you and all...

.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2009, 09:37 PM   #595
Lee Salzman
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 406
Offline
Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Ummmm.... I've seen his correspondence course. I don't think it explains anything. More vague generalities. That's why Yiquan training by foreigners gets such a pan. Regardless, the question was directed to you, not to a correspondence course... if you're a reasonably longterm student of Yiquan, can't you explain how it works?

Best.

Mike Sigman
The stances are used as a framework within which coordination of movement is initially practiced. This is movement stopped to a point, such that coordination of movement can be more easily practiced. Once in movement, maintaining the coordination is much more difficult, and having the coordination reinforced to sufficient levels of automation within static postures makes attaining the coordination in movement simpler. Various postures are useful for representing various phases of movement and also because they place different loading patterns on the musculature that can enhance the learning of awareness within certain body areas. Once a sufficient base of coordination is built, it is to be practiced outside static forms or postures, so that in the end form is discarded in favor of spontaneous free movement and coordination is maintained regardless. Coordination there has various meanings, in terms of being able to engage the spectrum from relaxation to tension, an understanding of the transitions between them, and optimal patterns of musculature utilization for exerting force under varying circumstances.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2009, 09:37 PM   #596
Misogi-no-Gyo
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 498
Offline
Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Ummmm.... I've seen his correspondence course. I don't think it explains anything. More vague generalities. That's why Yiquan training by foreigners gets such a pan. Regardless, the question was directed to you, not to a correspondence course... if you're a reasonably longterm student of Yiquan, can't you explain how it works?

Best.

Mike Sigman
Mike,

What if he can? Can you? What if he can't? Does that mean that he doesn't have a valid point? The point here is, no one is really explaining anything here that amounts to much other than a mere qualifier to some that they are qualified to not explain anything in great detail beyond that. I think we have moved beyond just putting a question out there for the mere sake of trying to decide for ourselves if said person is qualified to not really answer the question when asked by someone else with less knowledge. So you asked him... and now I am asking you? Can you explain it? Not that I care for the explanation, but it sure would be interesting for you to answer a direct question with just the answer and not much more... in the way of qualifiers, of course...

Best in training to you and all...

.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2009, 09:45 PM   #597
dps
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,282
Offline
Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
The stances are used as a framework within which coordination of movement is initially practiced. This is movement stopped to a point, such that coordination of movement can be more easily practiced. Once in movement, maintaining the coordination is much more difficult, and having the coordination reinforced to sufficient levels of automation within static postures makes attaining the coordination in movement simpler. Various postures are useful for representing various phases of movement and also because they place different loading patterns on the musculature that can enhance the learning of awareness within certain body areas. Once a sufficient base of coordination is built, it is to be practiced outside static forms or postures, so that in the end form is discarded in favor of spontaneous free movement and coordination is maintained regardless. Coordination there has various meanings, in terms of being able to engage the spectrum from relaxation to tension, an understanding of the transitions between them, and optimal patterns of musculature utilization for exerting force under varying circumstances.
Could you do this with ikkyo?

David
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2009, 09:54 PM   #598
Lee Salzman
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 406
Offline
Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Could you do this with ikkyo?

David
As far as I know, yes. My teacher had me working everything from stepping, punches, kicks, knees, and elbows to wrestling throws, tumbling, bridging, shrimping, and sweeping moves on the ground within that framework.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2009, 10:16 PM   #599
gdandscompserv
 
gdandscompserv's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,214
United_States
Offline
Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote: View Post
If O-Sensei were somehow alive and he came to my dojo, I would bow, take off my belt and carry buckets of hot water with it strewn over my back just to fill up his bath before I did anything else. After I prepared a meal for him and let him get some rest after his travels, observing him all the while I would just take ukemi from him until he was done with me. If I had the opportunity to ask any questions, well lets just say I have a whole list of them already written down. I wouldn't really ever be comfortable nor would I think be able to receive any insights at my level, and that's even if somehow as magically as he arrived, my Japanese was such to understand what he said without hesitation.
Is this also how you would behave if Dan H. came to visit your dojo?
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2009, 10:22 PM   #600
Misogi-no-Gyo
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 498
Offline
Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Could you do this with ikkyo?

David
David,

Ok, given that we now know that you are not asking this frmo a place of experience... Would you please, please, please tell us what does it means if he can...? and What does it mean if it can't?

I liked Lee's explanation. I understood everything he said. I have a clear picture of what he is talking about from his basic (not too in depth) description. As much as I both like it and understand it, I am not at all interested if he can do it from Ikkyo, nikkyo or any other outward waza, Aikido or otherwise. If you are asking, "Can this be done from Ikkyo? The answer would be yes. It would also be yes to nikkyo, shihonage, and every other waza, Aikido or otherwise. Lee's point is more about being able to do technique from any postural alignment whether it seems to be one of obvious advantage or one from just as obvious a disadvantage. This is more about applying any technique once the base principles are in place.

Whether you find that to be true or even interesting, is not really the issue.. The issue is asking an open ended question (a-la Mike's recent one to Lee) which neither offers any reason for the question, any qualifier as to what it means if the answer is yes, no, or whatever... and just hangs out there in the universe without any understanding by the casual reader as to why you are even asking that.

In any case, I have met people who can do ikkyo without any perceptible movement. They can do this from any angle, any postural alignment and from every position of disadvantage that you might be able to imagine. In every instance the attacker is driven straight into the ground without the ability (or even the chance) for the attacker to move from the spot upon which he is standing or just happens to be at the moment he connects with his attack.

Please... share with the readers here on AikiWeb... from your perspective... WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

Best in training to you and all...

.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 12 Peter Goldsbury Columns 32 05-16-2009 07:05 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 6 Peter Goldsbury Columns 35 03-13-2009 07:16 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 10 Peter Goldsbury Columns 200 02-04-2009 07:45 AM
Aikido in Amsterdam, Terry Lax style... tiyler_durden General 11 11-03-2008 09:31 AM
Women and Everybody Else in Aikido George S. Ledyard Teaching 113 03-16-2008 08:27 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:31 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2016 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2016 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate