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Old 07-31-2009, 10:26 PM   #426
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
Erick,

Please consider making a youtube video of your shear explanation. If you could then show how that relates to tai no henka in the video it would be great but it'd appreciate just seeing a vid of the 2 pencil -contraption you described.
As you wish: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmglyhCi6VE

In the demo, after showing the problems with two different leverages, when in compressive buckling shear the hands suddenly come together (irimi) in a plane -- lifting the collapsing connection in shear.It could just as easily shear sideways or down or anywhere in between, and it is directable but not like exerting leveraged direction.

Instead of a simple planar shear, which is what is in the demo, in tai no henko, the turn converts it into a 3D spiral action, making it irimi/tenkan

While this is compressive shear, tensile shear is "whips and chains" . Seems different, but same thing, just reversed sign in the action.

Waves or vibrations are, on the other hand cyclically alternating compressive and tensile shears, capable of buckling at either tensile or compressive connections, depending what phase of the wave or vibration hits the junction.

In a further twist, (pun intended) we have torsional waves, cycling in two planes at once, which can buckle things that seem otherwise very strong.

Other video will have to wait, I am afraid.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 07-31-2009, 11:29 PM   #427
dps
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
But overall I think those tapes are outdated because I would say many things differently (more clearly and more condensed and more info) nowadays.
What would you say differently?

David
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Old 08-01-2009, 08:27 AM   #428
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
What would you say differently?

David
I just keep trying to cook and condense these things down to the simplest and most easily-understood explanations. After a lot of years of doing, naturally a lot of explanations and thus perspectives have resolved into different ways of describing things. Plus all the added insights I've had over the years, the improvement in my own skills and understandings, conditioning, etc. Things change. I think Ueshiba and many others have noted that same effect in their comments. There's more to this than a quicky workshop in order to get good at it.

Mike
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Old 08-01-2009, 10:03 AM   #429
dps
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

These two video clips describe the structure of the body.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ajowL0T4bM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNPgq...eature=channel

David
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Old 08-01-2009, 11:53 AM   #430
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Mr. Sigman,

I would like to make a few comments, and observations. You have opined things that criticize Aikido directly and indirectly to point out the value of what you offer to improve Aikido. Yet, you make references to O'sensei in line that validates your stuff. I am confused by that.

The stuff you offer is fundamentally "essences" (principles) of Tai Chi servicing some Aikidoka. I see it really is no different that what already exists in Aikido. I find the value in your stuff in some of the explanation that is outside the paradigm of Aikido. It is always valuable to look at things from a different position in the room.

When you discuss your stuff, you use different explanations, and terminology, words to explain what you feel are improvements to Aikido. That tends to look like what you are saying is completely different to that in Aikido. But in short, it is the same physics in play that Aikido uses. The application, the approach, the terms, and all that stuff, is the outer shell colored differently with a seemingly different appearance between Aikido and you.

In your video, you take an approach to a waza that is within the confines of Aikido. If people look closely not engaging in your presentation they will see all Aikido principles at work. Many people might see it as intriguing because they not aware of it, due to many reason, and as a result to your presentation of the same principles.

Your presentation using different models, language, aids, and stuff, all of which are coloring the same universal principle (physics) differently. Yet all of that is suffering from the same susceptibilities to errors, faults and criticisms you point out in Aikido.

In Aikido, a Hakama is worn. The Hakama is an important garment in Aikido. Why? Because of the Koshi-ita. That has a reason, it has a purpose. Just as the over-all Hakama does. The importance of me making a point of this, is that is something you don't address its function in relation to what you're demonstrating in your video. In Aikido there is an importance to the Koshi-ita. It is not there just because. It plays a role, like the Hakama, in proper movement and how it enhances body training and movement. The Hakama isn't an essential part of performing Aikido waza, but it is important to the training of Aikido taisabaki, and other stuff you mention. The function of the Hakama as a learning aid to proper movement and technique, in my opinion, over-looked, and not always completely understood. For example, in your words making connections.

To make that connection, I don't feel it is important to do so, by being acutely aware of how the loads place on the spine. Or a being double weighted and stuff. Rather being more acutely aware the gross body movements realized resulting from the use of proper body alignment, posture and from other benefits from an aiding Hakama.

I was taught to "connect" my center with uke's center. It was taught to me to imagine there is a connecting rod running level through both are dan tien, ( I prefer the location of the obi knot). And when I would move my "center" so shall the uke's; move in sync. The body has to be in good upright natural posture. That means no pelvis, either tilt forward or back. When this method of connection is achieved correctly it takes very little movement on my part. But the result is, the Uke is moved a tremendous amount and distance. In another way, being at the center of a circle (and using ordinary language) and my Uke being on the edge of a circle travels a greater distance on the edge of the circle than I. BTW, I know to all the Aikidoka out there this is simply and nothing new. Connection can be achieved in this manner, with great results.

In your method, it reminds me of the old rubber band potential and kinetic energy thingy taught in high school, in relation to your demonstrative twisted body position, putting a load on the spine, hip turning, and shifting your weight to one leg or another. I have no doubt that is effective in a punch. Twisting up your body in the described method you presented has a different result and application to what I described on how we were taught to connect to the Uke.

I am not saying anything revolutionary, or anything. The only similarity I see is which such a common thing in all martial arts is is moving the body as a unit. That power is created with the hips and legs, and not just with the upper body. Therefore, if I the waza I will move my hips first that move that move the rest of the upper body. I too will not readjust the level or position of my arms; I will keep them in place. In that way, when I turn my hips, everything moves with the hips, the waza is kept in place- staying the same, and I move a little and the Uke moves a lot. Just as you did in your demonstration.

The difference is you generate your power from a gross twisting or winding of the whole body, like the rubber band. I feel this is also done in Aikido but not with the same gross movement. That is do to connecting with the Uke at the center mass of his body, i.e. a simply put, moving your pelvis, move the uke's pelvis via the waza. Moving the greater mass is and has always been the key. There are several ways it can be done. But, the focus isn't place on the method over moving the center mass. The goal is to move the center mass and dickering or minutiae over which method is better, as several methods are applicable.

Of what I have seen as your solution to Aikido, has already been explained and demonstrated by so many, such as Erle Montaigue, Robert Chuckrow, Peter Ralston, Bruce Lee, and all the other on the Barn's and Noble book shelf, and YouTube. I think if a person takes the perspective of Tai chi, and Chinese martial art and applies it to Aikido , over time will they find, they really weren't missing anything at all in their Aikido.

I don't have any issues with what you present, it may help some, but I feel that Aikido contains all the same elements, all the same physics, all the same stuff that you point out. The difference is in degree, and presentation. Now that assumes instruction on either side is competent, complete and all that stuff.

I think if any thing is missing in Aikido as well as in your fix-it patch, is with instruction that is lacking, and it is incomplete in knowledge and understanding. It also should be placed with the student who can't figure it out, not as serious, looking for the easy way, and not putting the time into it, and all that. The science is the same.

Last edited by Buck : 08-01-2009 at 11:56 AM.
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Old 08-01-2009, 03:12 PM   #431
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

I would like to conclude that I see nothing wrong with what you present. What I am having difficulty is the connection that what you offer is a "fix" for Aikido, or providing something that is missing in Aikido. I think what you have is sound principles at work within the framework of CMA on a common martial arts techique found in CMA and Aikido (at the waza's core). Your presentation doesn't address the full scope of that technique within the framework of Aikido. Therefore, I am having a difficultly in seeing how your approach via CMA to be what Aikido is missing.

What I see rather is, again, how CMA would handle a joint lock to the point of being standard grappling, i.e. become effective Chin-Na. That is not the purpose or the scope of Aikido waza to be grappling. I would say your "fix" would relate more to those who are ineffectively performing Chin-Na. Your presentation would be of great value if that was the case.

Last edited by Buck : 08-01-2009 at 03:15 PM.
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Old 08-01-2009, 04:23 PM   #432
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
(snip long opinion with no factual discussion)
Buck, will you cite where I have been criticizing Aikido, as you just asserted? And if you want to debate an issue, debate the points of the issue. Please don't take take the discussion to "you this" and "you that". It's called an "ad hominem" argument if that's what you do. Fairly low grade, in terms of any applied logic.

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-01-2009, 04:44 PM   #433
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Buck wrote:

Quote:
In Aikido, a Hakama is worn. The Hakama is an important garment in Aikido. Why? Because of the Koshi-ita. That has a reason, it has a purpose. Just as the over-all Hakama does. The importance of me making a point of this, is that is something you don't address its function in relation to what you're demonstrating in your video. In Aikido there is an importance to the Koshi-ita. It is not there just because. It plays a role, like the Hakama, in proper movement and how it enhances body training and movement. The Hakama isn't an essential part of performing Aikido waza, but it is important to the training of Aikido taisabaki, and other stuff you mention. The function of the Hakama as a learning aid to proper movement and technique, in my opinion, over-looked, and not always completely understood. For example, in your words making connections.
You experience may tell you this and I will certainly not take this away from you Buck, but this is not a universal fact nor is it empirical by any stretch of the imagination.

Koshita I am sure have a reason, and maybe it is to "encourage posture" much like much of the Victorian garb did in western culture.

However, to go so far as to say that it actually does that and "Has a place in aikido" is a far stretch. I have had none of my instructors or Shihan ever tell me that. Many dojos don't even wear hakama. I have never felt that it really did much at all as far as transmit skill or encourage posture.

If it did, then we'd see a distinct measureable outcome and difference between folks that wear them and folks that don't. You simply don't see this.

Besides, it really physically does absolutely nothing anyway. The Problem with posture is not the external lumbar area, but that of the whole spine and thoracic cavity and all the things attached to it...internally. having the pelvis in line with the spine, the shoulders engaged properly and extension thorugh the head and down through the ground is what we are trying to do.

That is alot of work and not an easy thing to do. That little piece of crap on your back has NOTHING to do with any of that! NOTHING!

If anything, by my observations, I'd say it is actually HINDERING development in this area since I have actually been with more folks that I consider "good" in this area that don't wear hakama vice those that do wear it.

The hakama is simply a distraction for folks I believe in many cases.

It is meant to be a traditional piece of clothing to allow us to hold on to heritage and to take us to another place to prepare us to train.

However, I think many fixate on it, make it a status simply, turn it into a pious piece of clothing, and then form attachments to it that are simply counter to the whole process we are trying to fix!

Sorry, but that is the way I see it.

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Old 08-01-2009, 09:57 PM   #434
Buck
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Buck, will you cite where I have been criticizing Aikido, as you just asserted? And if you want to debate an issue, debate the points of the issue. Please don't take take the discussion to "you this" and "you that". It's called an "ad hominem" argument if that's what you do. Fairly low grade, in terms of any applied logic.

Mike Sigman
Oh... the difficulting in language rears its ugly head. Shucks, I am refering to the terms as discribed by Merriam-Webster definitions below. Both appy, but I am not infering to the petty type of criticism and resutling mudslinging. Criticism, as I ment, refers evaluation and fault concerning Aikido on a technical level as technicians. Boy, I am glad that is cleared up now.

Main Entry:crit·i·cize
Pronunciation:\ˈkri-tə-ˌsīz\
Function:verb
Inflected Form(s):crit·i·cized; crit·i·ciz·ing
Date:1643
intransitive verb
: to act as a critic
transitive verb
1 : to consider the merits and demerits of and judge accordingly : evaluate 2 : to find fault with : point out the faults of
— crit·i·ciz·able \-ˌsī-zə-bəl\ adjective
— crit·i·ciz·er noun

Next, I was being critical of your video technically and not personally, nor intending to be malicious or petty. I provided my criticism in the form of comments and not arguments.

(to lighten things up) And now for something completely different, two very large men wearing one very small tiny Hakama.

Last edited by Buck : 08-01-2009 at 09:59 PM.
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Old 08-01-2009, 10:17 PM   #435
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Buck wrote:

You experience may tell you this [about the hakama].
I appreciate your thoughts and efforts, umm...I wasn't going that far into the Hakama- It does serve a purpose and function. But, I am focusing on a part of it in relation to movement. How it relates to and limits movement that serves the body and as Mike says, "core strength" and "the unbowing back." Keep in mind, I am making assumptions the level of the conversation is past the fundamental explanation and understanding of the concepts in both arts. That the conversation is on a more advance level.

What I am saying or pointing out is that the area of "core strength" that it isn't an aspect that is thought of in those terms in Aikido, hence if so then is considered to be missing. Yet it isn't, as it appears in the function and design of the Hakama addressing "core strength," "unbowing back" and other functions existing in the proper execution of Aikido waza- and stuff.

Point being what might be considered missing really mayn't be.

I don't want to focus on the other Hakama stuff, as it would make its own great thread.

Last edited by Buck : 08-01-2009 at 10:30 PM.
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Old 08-01-2009, 10:45 PM   #436
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

No problem Buck. My take on the hakama though is that it does absolutely nothing at the beginning or the advanced level (whatever that may be). It simply is a piece of cloth that may make you feel good, but adds little or no value physically to the practice.

To comment on the other parts of your post to Mike.

I have personally found it helpful to study several modalities when trying to understand this stuff. As you state, absolutley, it CAN all bet there in AIkido. However, it is not so much about what in inclusvie or exclusive in the actual concept of aikido, but what the teacher can teach and the student can learn or recieve.

I have benefited greatly from hearing different descriptions and lanquaging from many different styles and traditions.

I get a little out of what Mike Sigman tries/tried to convey, almost two years later I am still processing the info he provided. I was just reading the notes he provided to me. I find that things I did not get 2 years ago, now I am seeing differently.

Same with Ark...and lately my Yoga practice is providing me new insights.

Again, it has been most helpful to me to have things described and practiced in different ways, languaging, and formats.

Mike Sigman has probably done the best job out of anyone out there in trying to provide a format, process, and practice that is void of all the trappings of culture and martial style.

I think those things are fine (culture/style) but they also get in the way of learning/transmission.

Certainly we all draw from our experiences, and our teaching styles will tend to gravitate to the culutres/styles/traditions we know.

However, what I think is most important is stripping away all the chafe, and focusing on the core prinicples that really matter (not techniques or styles), and learning them for what they really are.

So, IMO, the fact that you mention the hakama is no small thing really in this light. It is to me, another example of the chafe/static that gets in the way of us really learning what we need to learn.

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Old 08-02-2009, 12:09 AM   #437
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Good thoughts, Kevin. You touched on something I wasn't make obvious on purpose. I think I better. I wonder if we compared Mike wearing a Hakama in his video to the original one where he wears sweat pants how the movements would change and compare. That would be in the results. It is hard to layout the details here in words and stuff to get an accurate picture, and what am getting at is the scope of Aikido is different than that of CMA. The approach and goals are different and stuff as well.

Because of that some people feel there is something missing in Aikido, and there isn't. I am not against different methods of explanations of principles or execution of Aikido. Or the comparing or pointing out in the similarities or differences of principles/physics associated to any martial art. What I have difficult with the thinking that Aikido is missing something in someway, when in fact it is more likely what is missing is with the individual's scope and stuff.

What this means is there is a displacement of understanding and a undeveloped perspective of Aikido technically that is displayed in the form of criticism by the individual, rather than an element missing in Aikido. You don't blame physics if you can't work a lever, or blame he physics behind something, because it didn't work for you as intended.

If you don't understand physics and it applications, no martial art is going to work properly for you. You really have to understand Aikido for it to work at its maximum potential- and that is true for Tai Chi, Chi Gong and other CMA. That doesn't happen over night because Aikido is an art. Mike has been at CMAs for how long and he even make criticisms concerning his tapes. Point being it is an on going, a growing, developing processes. Both arts are not like learning to use an iphone, and there really isn't a quick tips guide that will get you started right away.

What Mike shows is CMA. Aikido isn't CMA. Both share the use of physics, used in different approaches, methods, result and stuff.

In simple terms, I don't think a cricket player can fix the swing of a baseball player. Both games swing a stick, and hit a ball, but they are not the same game. And if you where to mix the two sports together then it wouldn't be either. It would be something different, a whole different ball game. But, I don't think either game is lacking nor that one can fix the other.

I do believe learning new approaches to teaching and learning is fine in any art within the art- keep in mind my cricket and baseball example. Aikido is just such an art where that can be beneficial especially to those who don't understand Japanese language. But that is different then taking Taichi methods to Aikido. Like I said before it is because of the different purposes and frameworks each are in.

Last edited by Buck : 08-02-2009 at 12:17 AM.
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Old 08-02-2009, 12:56 AM   #438
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
In simple terms, I don't think a cricket player can fix the swing of a baseball player. Both games swing a stick, and hit a ball, but they are not the same game. And if you where to mix the two sports together then it wouldn't be either. It would be something different, a whole different ball game. But, I don't think either game is lacking nor that one can fix the other.
So, would it then be outside the realm for an aikido teacher to fix the swing of a baseball player?

Thanks,
Adam
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Old 08-02-2009, 07:41 AM   #439
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Hint: this happend.
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Old 08-02-2009, 07:42 AM   #440
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Buck wrote:

Quote:
Good thoughts, Kevin. You touched on something I wasn't make obvious on purpose. I think I better. I wonder if we compared Mike wearing a Hakama in his video to the original one where he wears sweat pants how the movements would change and compare. That would be in the results. It is hard to layout the details here in words and stuff to get an accurate picture, and what am getting at is the scope of Aikido is different than that of CMA. The approach and goals are different and stuff as well.

Because of that some people feel there is something missing in Aikido, and there isn't. I am not against different methods of explanations of principles or execution of Aikido. Or the comparing or pointing out in the similarities or differences of principles/physics associated to any martial art. What I have difficult with the thinking that Aikido is missing something in someway, when in fact it is more likely what is missing is with the individual's scope and stuff.
Buck, I think the disconnect with us on this issue is you are combining two different things. The conceptual idea of "Aikido" at the Macro level with the Actual practice.

If you separate the two out I think it makes things much easier to discuss.

Conceptually I would agree that the Vision of AIkido is inclusive of alot of things and it is complete.

The reality of this concept depends on the teacher and his/her own limitations.

The problem is really this simple.

When we look across the board of experienced practicioners, we have a varying degree of understanding, paradigms, standards, and abilities.

We have the "Art" thing and the "Conceptual" thing (and wearing the hakama) down.

What we don't have is the science nailed down.

I have recently enrolled in ACSM's Health Fitness Specialst program to become a "Certified Personal Trainer"...more specifically a HFS. I have also researched the Registered Yoga Teacher (RYT) credentialing process as well (just for research...not for my own qualification).

In both these programs the common theme is developing teaching skills and a system for conveying and transmitting information to students. They are systematic and work of "western" concepts of Assessment, evaluation, teaching, prescription. (not necessarily in that order).

All quality systems and programs I have experienced out in the world work this way and no it is not all about taking your money for a fancy title.

Alot of what Mike does really falls in line with this type of thinking. He has put in lots of years in trial and error. He has figured out what seems to work for him and he has attempt to distill it down into a system of exercises, evaluation, and assessment that are really universal and void of alot of the "art" aspects.

The smart guy sees this for what it is. Says "Thank you" for spending insane time and money on doing this and takes from it what they can and drives on.

Quote:
If you don't understand physics and it applications, no martial art is going to work properly for you. You really have to understand Aikido for it to work at its maximum potential- and that is true for Tai Chi, Chi Gong and other CMA. That doesn't happen over night because Aikido is an art.
There are a couple of different levels of "Understanding Physics". Mainly Tacit and Implicit. We are born with a certain implicit understanding of physics since we are all affected by the laws of it and we have to learn to walk. We certainly learn act well before we can even identifiy who Sir Issac Newton was and his importance to describing why it is that we learned to walk and why we fall down when we lose our balance.

So again, when you say "Understand Aikido" that is a huge topic both Tacitly and Implicitly.

I have run into guys in other kinestic professions that have a implicit understanding of many of the principles that are involved in aikido and they have never even heard of it outside of a Seagal movie!

I do agree that it doesn't happen overnight because it is an Art. That is very true. This is my criticism of how we do things. If we continue with the haphazard approach of methodology learning this stuff will take a long time with a very high failure rate of folks obtaining the skills.

No one is talking about changing the Art or the Scope of the Art. SImply about improving the instructors that are teaching, providing better tools, methodology to evaluate, teach, and transmit the same concepts.

There is much room for improvement in the "Science" of what we do.

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Old 08-02-2009, 07:58 AM   #441
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Adam Bauder wrote: View Post
So, would it then be outside the realm for an aikido teacher to fix the swing of a baseball player?

Thanks,
Adam
There was a very famous precedent in Japan.
(see A Zen Way of Baseball, by Sadaharu Oh & David Falkner)

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Old 08-02-2009, 08:17 AM   #442
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Erle Montaigue, Robert Chuckrow, Peter Ralston, Bruce Lee, and all the other on the Barn's and Noble book shelf, and YouTube.
You're not serious...including Bruce Lee in that quote
Dude, his teacher Yip Man may have had Kokyu-ryoku/Jin skills (my guess is he did)...but Bruce?

Your above quote basically destroys any credibility in the eyes of anyone that has some "skills" dude. Not to be harsh, just calling it like I see it.
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Old 08-02-2009, 09:49 AM   #443
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Ludwig Neveu wrote: View Post
There was a very famous precedent in Japan.
(see A Zen Way of Baseball, by Sadaharu Oh & David Falkner)
Oh credits his success at batsmanship to Kochi Tohei. There's footage of Oh practicing while standing on one leg. Learned from Tohei.
I suspect Ichiro learned something interesting from someone.

That's all I have to say...
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Old 08-02-2009, 11:56 AM   #444
Buck
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Buck wrote:

Buck, I think the disconnect with us on this issue is you are combining two different things. The conceptual idea of "Aikido" at the Macro level with the Actual practice.

If you separate the two out I think it makes things much easier to discuss.

Conceptually I would agree that the Vision of AIkido is inclusive of alot of things and it is complete.
Wow... Kevin, we just enter a whole new thread. You put up some thought provoking and interesting ideas, I would love to discuss, but we need to discuss it as other thread. We than are able to really focus on what you said. I would be more than happy to discuss all that stuff.

We need to stick to the thread, and currently we are on the verge of going off of it any way.

I am taking a risk in GOFT (going off topic) with what I am about to say. Aikido is about the journey and not the finish line. To understand it is a process over-time.

We can take the physics of Aikido (what ever they are) and see they are universal and applicable to different things. But the challenge is to do it in the framework that defines it as being Aikido and not baseball.

Understanding Aikido isn't easy. It is a difficult art. As we know we the dynamics of Aikido are complex. Are challenge is to neutralize aggressive and resistant human and natural forces, manipulate the human body in a way that allows us to throw someone 100 to 300 lbs against the structure of the human body that defies the common sense and human experience. All from a defensive position.

So of course, when people see others (Aikidoka) preform such feats and they can't, they naturally will question their ability, their instruction, and the art. But, very few question their understanding and comprehension as the fault to their inability and then try to correct that. Even if you have a poor instructor, a person can get around that by putting in the effort to understanding and comprehending the art better. Isn't that how many martial artists of old did it. In the CMA tradition is was the studying of creatures fighting that led to a better understanding and comprehension.

When people say, is their something missing in Aikido, I think does that question arise because of their perspective, understanding and comprehension. Are they not seeing the complete picture, like the entire scope and dynamic of it. And as a result lacking confidence in their abilities, which leads them to out-sourcing?

And the people they go to, as out-sources, themselves have a complete scope of understanding and comprehension of Aikido. To kill two birds with one stone- See, if I was a serious baseball player who wanted to improve my swing or fix batting problems, I would go to a baseball batting coach, or get tips from a better batter on my team- who would understand my issues, and not a cricket player. And like wise, for a baseball pitcher too. That is how it commonly works. If not, then you would not have the need for such experienced coaches for the team. They would all be flocking to the local Karate dojo or hockey rink or what have you. This is true for any profession as well. What if we had surgeons who needed to improve their skills signed on to butcher shops. Well am digressing to that OFT world where the examples are scrutinize and I am silly enough to defend that.

To wrap this stuff up in a nut shell-
Do you out-source what you think your missing in Aikido, and work within the framework of the out-source? Or do you dig deeper to understand what you are missing within the framework of what your doing. Do you go (thinking there is something missing- parallels with the topic) to a blues guitarist, thinking to learn how to bend and overbend on a Chromatic Harmonica?

Sorry Kevin for going off what you said on to another tangent.


Last edited by Buck : 08-02-2009 at 12:02 PM.
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Old 08-02-2009, 12:43 PM   #445
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Do you go (thinking there is something missing- parallels with the topic) to a blues guitarist, thinking to learn how to bend and overbend on a Chromatic Harmonica?

Sorry Kevin for going off what you said on to another tangent.

Well, being that I like tangents...and jumping in midway on conversations...
I look at learning in terms of finding what is similar in otherwise dissimilar things. I might go to someone who plays the chromatic harmonica to see what they do to the notes themselves, which then leaves me the task of learning how to bend my guitar string to match that quality. It might be better to go to BB King, but once you've figured out what a guitar is and developed the feel for the neck and how to fret, you can at least begin to emulate some things on your own. It's never as good as training with a master, but when all you've got is a paper clip, some gum, and a shoestring, you gotta MacGuyver it!
...FWIW
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Gambarimashyo!
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Old 08-02-2009, 12:55 PM   #446
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Buck wrote:

Quote:
When people say, is their something missing in Aikido, I think does that question arise because of their perspective, understanding and comprehension. Are they not seeing the complete picture, like the entire scope and dynamic of it. And as a result lacking confidence in their abilities, which leads them to out-sourcing?
Well if you can show me one teacher that has the complete picture please point me to him/her! Seriously.

Maybe you see the complete picture and can teach the complete range of all that is inclusive? Do you? If so, please let me know and I will find a way to come train with you. I am not being patronizing or sarcastic. I mean it in the most sincere way.

If we could obtain everything within one paradigm or modality then we would do that, it certainly makes life alot easier and it cost alot less time and money. Heck I have to visit several different dojos, work under several different promotion systems and pay fees, go to seminars and all that. So if you have a better way please show me!

Quote:
So of course, when people see others (Aikidoka) preform such feats and they can't, they naturally will question their ability, their instruction, and the art. But, very few question their understanding and comprehension as the fault to their inability and then try to correct that. Even if you have a poor instructor, a person can get around that by putting in the effort to understanding and comprehending the art better. Isn't that how many martial artists of old did it. In the CMA tradition is was the studying of creatures fighting that led to a better understanding and comprehension.
Well my decision making criteria is pretty simple. If I see someone doing something I ask them "how do you do that", or "what do I need to do to learn that". If they tell me well, there is a good Tai Chi teacher that I study with that can fix this problem for you...well this is what I would do. Masters of old did the same. It is how we learn. Heck the Japanese built their whole industrial base out of stealing ideas and innovations from others, this is not something new or outside the context of our Aikido Paradigm.

Quote:
And the people they go to, as out-sources, themselves have a complete scope of understanding and comprehension of Aikido. To kill two birds with one stone- See, if I was a serious baseball player who wanted to improve my swing or fix batting problems, I would go to a baseball batting coach, or get tips from a better batter on my team- who would understand my issues, and not a cricket player.
Well the reality of it is that they do go to outside sources for help. The really good ones do. Recommend reading Josh Waitzkins book on the "Art of Learning" that sums up his process for learning how to become one of the best chess players in the world as well as a champion at push hands.

Quote:
Do you out-source what you think your missing in Aikido, and work within the framework of the out-source? Or do you dig deeper to understand what you are missing within the framework of what your doing. Do you go (thinking there is something missing- parallels with the topic) to a blues guitarist, thinking to learn how to bend and overbend on a Chromatic Harmonica?
It is an individual path for all of us. Each of us forms our own (or should) set of criteria and measures of success/performance and self evalutation. We then should surround ourselves with friends, family, and peer, and mentors that provide us with an external perspective of constructive feedback and evaluation.

We have to constantly reassess what we are doing and constantly be looking HONESTLY as possible at ourselves.

The problem arises when we take "the grass is always greener" approach and skip around to various methodologies, schools, modalities or what not and make excuses for ourselves and the reason we are not getting better. This usually translates into, "well, it is somebody's elses fault".

As long as we keep that in mind, I think the best thing we can do is to continually educate ourselves and expand our understanding. It is my hope and I think it is natural that our students outgrow the boundaries of our dojo and look beyond it if we are going to have a healthy system.

My experiences outside aikido, ironically have strengthened my understanding of aikido, made me understand what it can and cannot do for us, and has grown me closer to what I consider to be an authentic practice and I have a greater passion for it now than I did before.

Buck, this is not off topic, but actually right on I believe.

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Old 08-02-2009, 01:45 PM   #447
Buck
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Buck wrote:

Well if you can show me one teacher that has the complete picture please point me to him/her! Seriously.

Maybe you see the complete picture and can teach the complete range of all that is inclusive? Do you? If so, please let me know and I will find a way to come train with you. I am not being patronizing or sarcastic. I mean it in the most sincere way.
That is a good point, it directs us to think then who does, who can? If the guy in the art can't, then what leads us to believe the out-source guy is any different, isn't he just using a different presentation?

That is why I said Aikido is a journey, an art, a process of development. It is best to stay inside that scope because what else is out there, well is it really any different?

Kevin, I believe everyone has a right to their opinion and a right to take the direction they wish. We aren't talking religion here, and no one is going to hell for what they believe. I would seriously like to discuss all your comments on a thread that is about that. That wasn't a slight, it was an honest thing. That is because there is layers to what you say based on your goals, needs and demands from your perspective of studying martial arts. Which are different then mine, based primarily on the fact that I study Aikido purely from a non-martial platform. For me it is a hobby, in comparison. So mine needs,requirements, and applications are not as demanding as yours.
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Old 08-02-2009, 01:46 PM   #448
Buck
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
...FWIW
Cheers!
Matt, you always seem to crack me up, with stuff like that.
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Old 08-02-2009, 02:12 PM   #449
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Buck wrote:

Quote:
That is a good point, it directs us to think then who does, who can? If the guy in the art can't, then what leads us to believe the out-source guy is any different, isn't he just using a different presentation?
He may or may not be different. It depends on your criteria for evaluation of the problem at hand.

If I am trying to the ability to become "immovable" to certain forces and or vectors...then just like in any scientific experiment we can frame the controls and conditions around which we can test and evaluate those things. Ki Society has devote a large part of their practice in doing just that. Once we have defined the "test", well then we have a consistent pattern of inputs and outputs that can now be measured and evaluated.

So, that said, we can judge now how well the guy from outside the art can do these things. I'd say if he can demonstrate them well, then he has something to offer, if not then forget it and move on. If the guy inside the art can't do it, then it is more than warranted to look elsewhere.

The problem is, many of us can't agree on or even understand what we are doing or what the performance measures should look like. There is alot of bad stuff out there getting passed off as aikido, tai chi, and even Yoga.

In recent years, thanks in no small part to the internet, a bunch of folks have been able to fix alot of this.

Quote:
Kevin, I believe everyone has a right to their opinion and a right to take the direction they wish. We aren't talking religion here, and no one is going to hell for what they believe. I would seriously like to discuss all your comments on a thread that is about that. That wasn't a slight, it was an honest thing. That is because there is layers to what you say based on your goals, needs and demands from your perspective of studying martial arts. Which are different then mine, based primarily on the fact that I study Aikido purely from a non-martial platform. For me it is a hobby, in comparison. So mine needs,requirements, and applications are not as demanding as yours.
Why do you assume they are different? Sure we come maybe from a different set of experiences and backgrounds. That is always different between any two people. My "applications" in aikido are probably pretty similar to yours at the core.

Things such as getting out of a chair when I am 80 years old, reducing the amount of physical, mental and spiritual sufferng as we grow older and change, being able to turn a screw driver, those kind of things are what I think are most important.

Sure, I come from a military and martial background that is maybe more direct in application on body skills, but at the base, it is really not much different.

IMO, we should be evaluating things exactly the same. Philosophically and otherwise. Don't assume that they would be different based on external issues.

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Old 08-02-2009, 08:05 PM   #450
Buck
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Buck wrote:

Sure we come maybe from a different set of experiences and backgrounds. That is always different between any two people. My "applications" in aikido are probably pretty similar to yours at the core.
I have a different purpose and stuff for training in Aikido, which is different from yours. Mine isn't military, and I am not military minded, or have the same purpose for martial arts as the military. I am not instructing any military personnel, either. I understand where you are coming from because of your purpose and background and all of that. The decisions and perspectives you take are based on that. That is all I am saying.

And it is true our applications in the dojo when training are pretty similar as the core, sure. I don't disgaree with that. But, I am not training soldiers for the battle field mentally or physicially. I don't have that responsibility.

Last edited by Buck : 08-02-2009 at 08:07 PM.
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