"Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" Forum

Hi folks,

I appreciate the respectful, open, and honest feedback and dialogue(s) that we're having here.

To address a few points directly:

Timothy Walters Kleinert wrote: But I think the "General" forum would benefit a lot from Daito-ryu discussion, if for nothing else, for the fact that Daito-ryu provides a historical context for Aikido.

I am very happy to have people discussing historical, technical, and other aspects of arts outside of aikido and how it relates to aikido in the general aikido forums here -- as long as those discussions are focused on their relationship to aikido. Once it starts to focus outside of aikido, I believe the discussion should be moved to the Non-Aikido Martial Traditions forum. As I have written in the past, I created the AikiWeb Forums for people to discuss the art of aikido and their experiences in the art. There may be many influences that people have had in their experiences that have helped elucidate certain elements of their aikido practice. I sure have. And, I'm frankly happy to hear people discussing their experiences from non-aikido sources in the general forums -- as long as they discuss how their experiences relate directly to their on-going aikido practice.

Mark Murray wrote: Dan, Mike, Timothy, Rob, Ron, Ellis, and I have all experienced things first hand. Jun has not. Do not disparage those who have not yet had the chance that we were given.

I do not see how I am disparaging other people's experiences. I'm also a bit perplexed as to another instance of trying to bring in my personal training into the discussion. All I'll ask is to please do not confuse my reticence to share my personal training history with closed-mindedness nor lack of diverse, first-hand experience.

Dan Harden wrote: I think Juns point is precise though. a) Talk about aiki training in context of aikido, how it relates, in the larger forums. b) Talk about where it came from or how it used in other arts in the Non-Aikido forum.

Yes, that's pretty much it, really.

Lastly, once again, let's keep discussions not pertaining to the formation of the Non-Aikido Martial Traditions forum out of this thread. Thanks.

OK, folks. I need to get back to work here.

Best,

-- Jun

Jun Akiyama wrote: I do not see how I am disparaging other people's experiences. I'm also a bit perplexed as to another instance of trying to bring in my personal training into the discussion. All I'll ask is to please do not confuse my reticence to share my personal training history with closed-mindedness nor lack of diverse, first-hand experience. Best, -- Jun

Didn't mean it that way.

Mark

I hear you Jun, you make the rules.

But just to clarify, I'm arguing something different than the other people here:

• Others seem to be arguing for a general re-definition of "aiki" as internal skill... Which kinda opens the door to discussing non-aiki sources or methods. You don't want that, which is cool, I get it.
• I'm arguing that the specific topic(s) of Daito-ryu history, technique, training, etc should be considered the same thing as Aikido. IMO, there is a very close and direct technical and historical link between the two that makes discussion of Daito-ryu extremely relevant to Aikido---in a way unlike any other art (even Judo). Given that Ueshiba practiced Daito-ryu as his primary art---for at least part of his life---I think most of what can be said about Daito-ryu would be things that the Founder practiced himself, or was relevant to his personal practice (I'm one of those people who get tempted to call Aikido "Ueshiba-ha Daito-ryu")... But I'll add that only a handful of people on this board, I believe, really have any sort of authority to speak about "Daito-ryu" (I have extremely little myself).

Rob Liberti wrote: No one - not even Dan is saying Dan does aikido. But I think it's a bit much to say I am discussing non-aikido when I apply something *I learned from* non-aikido to AIKIDO. Plenty of other names for the forum where suggested which would avoid such a problem.

What problem?

Otherwise, it kind of leaves me feeling like: so am I the head instructor of "shobu non-aikido of connecticut" now?

Maybe the poll of the week should be how many Aikidoka are annoyed by discussions being diverted to internal skills and how everybody other than Dan is an aiki-less weenie. Perhaps those numbers would explain the wisdom of a separate forum. I can tolerate you guys because I have no problem being a bit of jerk too, but many people are much more delicate.

Seriously, I really wouldn't worry about where the threads go, typically the NAMT forum has quite a bit of readership, and many of the most-viewed and interesting threads are there too. As long as the interested people know where to find the posts, that's great. There's even a search function! I can have all Dan Harden all the time if I like! I don't mind yanking people's chains when they're begging for it (like now), but I have to say Jun has shown an admirable level of patience even when you're dragging his meatspace affiliations into the picture. Trust me, if it were my website and people had the nerve to publicly whine about how I ran it, or pontificate about my personal experiences without being in my head, my answer would be f******************************************k you.

I would like to come to Jun's support here.

I am a moderator or one discussion forum and regularly contribute to two more and I can see clearly how Jun has chosen to moderate this general forum (his forum). There are other ways of doing so (and I myself have been much more severe, over at E-Budo, in the case of Baffling Budo / Bad Budo, which could have legal consequences).

I think if contributors have issues with the way Jun moderates the forum and organizes the threads, they should discuss this via PM.

Best wishes to all,

How soon they forget!

I kind of remember a time when you couldn't post about anything without being told about your average aikidoka's inability to deal with someone "closing the distance", how "90% of all fights go to the ground", etc. It was the previous posting rage as I recall and that was fine. I read posts by Jason Delucia, Dan Austin, Roy Dean, Kevin L, etc about MMA in many of the forums. I do not recall any of the MMA folks who combined what they learned with aikido getting their posts pulled out of a thread about aikido and put into a a category named "non-aikido". And DR aiki seems a lot closer to aikido than MMA.

Wink all you like, Dan. The problem I was suggesting was that we could have a separate forum AS WELL AS rename it to ANTHING without the phrase "non-aikido" in it - which seems like it would satify everyone.

Since I kind of notice thread names changing frequently, it really seemed like a simple request that would harm no one.

As far as my personal faux-pas regarding Jun's background. I got the impression that my thougths about what was aikido was "invalid" and I was having trouble relating to why we would be at odds having a similar background. Honestly, it didn't seem like a big stretch to me. If he wanted to be all anonymous, as the admin I would assume he could have picked a different name like "john smith" for instance. It certainly wasn't obvious that it was a taboo subject to me, but now that I know I'll do my best to respect his wishes.

And honestly, if this is not the correct place to provide feedback on the name of the forum, then I'm really confused about what this thread was for discussing.

As far as opinion polls. Since when is truth going to be "popular"?

The funny thing is I already dropped the issue with Jun and I'm just arguing with other folks for my daring to raise the issue in the first place.

Rob

Rob Liberti wrote: Wink all you like, Dan. The problem I was suggesting was that we could have a separate forum AS WELL AS rename it to ANTHING without the phrase "non-aikido" in it - which seems like it would satify everyone.

You're the only person who seems unsatisfied. Even Dan posted that he doesn't have an issue with it. If more people shared your view, Jun might have made a different decision, but if a single person's opinion should be the deciding factor, it should be his.

Since I kind of notice thread names changing frequently, it really seemed like a simple request that would harm no one.

Again, if he finds it making more work for him then he may come to a different decision. Apparently he prefers to move threads.

As far as my personal faux-pas regarding Jun's background. I got the impression that my thougths about what was aikido was "invalid" and I was having trouble relating to why we would be at odds having a similar background.

So if you're for Obama, he should be too? He's entitled to reserve his opinion about the true nature of Aikido, even if the light from Dan's body hasn't broken through the clouds and bathed him in a golden glow yet. You volunteered without firsthand knowledge that he just hasn't been fortunate enough to have had that transformative experience yet. That's a bit insulting. You don't know what he's done, and maybe he won't get the religion, or won't be quite as rabid about it. He has a lot of practice tolerating different viewpoints, and you're going to find that not everyone is going to convert the way you did. He will always be entitled to have a different opinion than you, and here that means you lose. Your opinion has been duly noted, and the decision rendered for now. In the future, who knows. As Dan has noted, in the future people who question whether internal skills are part of Aikido may well be in the minority, but until then there's no reason to get huffy about it. The way to spread the word is by worrying about what you do on the mat, not obsessing over how things are categorized here. As others have noted, it's enough that the discussion is even allowed.

Hi Dan
Since we seem to agree on the matter-would you mind not referring to me? FWIW, I am by no means alone. We shouldn't lose sight of the fact that these skills are in the Asian arts. I frequently mention there are guys trained in internal methods in DR, Aikido, and the ICMA as well. That way everyone can look in multiple places and form their own opinions. I think we have seen quite enough "cult of personality" in the martial arts. If I thought I was "all that" I'd hang a shingle and be a sensei. I'm sharing on- going research with my equals on this earth. And if you want to consider rank important? These days I am mostly sharing with my betters.
I remain an advocate for the method, not the person. It's far more important for all of us to keep in mine what is right not who is right. That way everyone keeps a strong sense of themselves and their wits about them.
My Aikido V aiki...do thread was thought out long before I posted it, to respect Jun's reasonable request and to have folks talk about independent Aiki research and how it is affecting their aikido. It was my hope to keep the sources in the background and to highlight more of their training experiences. Jun was correct when certain folks decided to talk about DR to dump it into his NAMT area.
Again though, Rob is not being unreasonable with certain points. He teachers aikido in three dojos. He has determined on his own-trust me, I have zero control over that man-that this aiki is THEE aiki he has experienced in aikido and he is now incorporating and teaching it in his aikido every week. For that reason he wants to discuss it in the aikido forums. I think he and Jun have reached some clarity and understanding of how to make that happen in the Aikido sections. So It's probably a dead issue.
I am not being gratuitous when I say how thankful I am about all of this. It was a daunting task to get the message out-more so through such a flawed method; both me and my writing skills, and certain others. For Jun to come up with a way to try and make everyone happy was quite a task on his end.
Has anyone considered all the complaints and hate mail he got wanting all this banned? I think we all need to really consider the larger picture (yes both sides) and the rather glaringly obvious positve position he took (I've P.M'd him and was surprised) and what Jun had to deal with in making such a decision?.
I'll settle with a place to talk about it outside of aikido, and the burgeoning success of my other goal-to now begin talking about its use in aikido from those training and teaching Aikido.
Again, thank you Jun.
And Dan, thanks for your patience, I'm trying to improve my method of communicating..

Dan Austin wrote: You volunteered without firsthand knowledge that he just hasn't been fortunate enough to have had that transformative experience yet.

That's just not true to my knowledge. My best guess (assuming you are not simply mistaken about who said what or a liar) is that the meaning of something I wrote was greatly misunderstood from what I intended to say. Please provide the cite on that one.

Okay now to address you concerns:
1) I should be thankful my opinions in a feedback forum are tolerated. I am. The fact that there is a feedback forum about the subject I wanted to discuss gave me the idea that posting about it was ENCOURAGED.

2) I am the only one dissatisfied. Okay. Well, what if say 10 other people are also dissatisfied and they all use the logic that since no one has posted about this yet they must be the only 1 so it's not worth trying. In fact, Mark Murray posted about it. He was 1. I saw the thread and posted about it too. That makes 2. MAYBE just maybe a bunch of other people were going to post in as well. I can't know that at the time! Maybe just 1 or 2 people is enough to encourage Jun to think "well changing the name wouldn't be to difficult, seems like a reasonable enough request" or not. Can't know if you don't try.

3) the silly analogy. Okay fine. I didn't say that Jun and I worked for the same political election commitees! If we did, and we were out of synch with 'what was what' I would be concerned - yes...

And stop calling me huffy. I'm getting huffy about THAT!

Rob

Rob Liberti wrote: That's just not true to my knowledge. My best guess (assuming you are not simply mistaken about who said what or a liar) is that the meaning of something I wrote was greatly misunderstood from what I intended to say. Please provide the cite on that one.

My mistake, that was a post by Mark Murray.

Your posts just sounded very arrogant, but I think you've been ribbed enough.

Dan Austin wrote: My mistake, that was a post by Mark Murray. Your posts just sounded very arrogant, but I think you've been ribbed enough.

Just don't call him 'Huffy'.

Exactly! You so get me...

Thanks for the support. -Rob

Hi folks,

I wanted to take a minute to clarify some things regarding the Non-Aikido Martial Traditions forum in light of my reading comments such as:

Michael Douglas wrote: That's not ironic, it is simply because Jun banned discussions of 'IT' from the aikido subforums a long time ago. Without that incredible restriction lots of 'IT' threads would be in the General, or Techniques, or Spiritual sub-forums since many aikidoka believe such discussions are extremely pertinent to aikido itself and would have started such threads there, given the opportunity.

To clarify, I have never "banned" discussions of internal training methods from the aikido forums. Such discussions, just like any other discussion, are welcome in the aikido forums, provided that the discussions place their focus within the milieu of the martial art of aikido. In fact, I will just say that I feel that I have been very open about what topics can be discussed here on AikiWeb -- provided that they are in what I consider to be the appropriate section of the forums and adhere to the forum rules of conducting oneself with respect while contributing positively to the discussion.

Please understand, folks, that all I am trying to do is keep this website's focus on the art of aikido in the clearest and simplest way that I feel able; and, no matter how carefully I may try to draw the lines (delineating subject matter, in this instance), I know that a number of people will feel offended or disrespected as the lines I draw may not correspond to theirs. I truly hope that people do not take this to be demeaning of their personal experience nor thoughts.

Lastly, I will say that "pertinency," I believe, is a tricky topic -- almost a can of worms in my mind. I'm sure we can all agree that just because something is pertinent to a subject does not make that something into that subject; in other words, just because people believe that a certain topic is pertinent to aikido doesn't make that topic aikido. If a discussion focuses around a certain topic that is only "pertinent" to aikido but does not, for instance, explicitly discuss its relationship to aikido, then I ask that it be discussed in the Non-Aikido Martial Traditions forum (if said topic is about a martial art) or in the Open Discussion forum.

Thank you,

-- Jun

Hi Jun,

Just wanted to take a moment to thank you again for all your hard work and the simple fact that you enable ALL of the conversations. You show MUCH more patience than I ever would.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale wrote: Hi Jun, Just wanted to take a moment to thank you again for all your hard work and the simple fact that you enable ALL of the conversations. You show MUCH more patience than I ever would. Best, Ron

What Ron said.

Best,

FL

Thanks, Ron and Fred, for your thoughts and support.

Best,

-- Jun

While we don't always agree, Jun, I still very much appreciate what you do, and have done, here at Aikiweb.

Mark

Thanks, Mark. I appreciate your thoughts and your participation here on AikiWeb.

Best,

-- Jun