Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Spiritual

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-08-2009, 02:21 AM   #26
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,113
United_States
Offline
Re: An interesting relationship

Quote:
The importance lies in three (3) critical areas/teachings that are at the verge of being forgotten/supplanted by the meaningless meanderings of a recent self-appointed scholar, regardless of the fact that he missed his own teacher's relationship to this very thing and misled the entire current generation of seekers of the way of the founder of Aikido... Go figure.

best in training to all...
Hi Shaun,
First, what are the 3 critical areas?

Also, regarding scholars (all are essentially self-appointed in my view), haven't the leading minds in most fields disagreed at one point or another? I recall my anthropology classes in which the question came up on whether race was a valid concept or not. Both seemed to have their points based on valid interpretations of data.
At any rate it seems all the more important for folks to share their perspectives. Going back to my favorite little analogy, if the three blind men stop their conversation, they continue with their respective perspectives, but through communication and debate they might stumble upon the golden question (patent pending)...like most other major advances in human history seem to have come about from. (I ended in a preposition on purpose...I'm such a rebel!)
Now that's ridiculous!
Take care, and seriously, thank you for offering a translation! I'm still digesting.

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2009, 12:44 PM   #27
Misogi-no-Gyo
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 498
Offline
Re: An interesting relationship

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Hi Shaun,
First, what are the 3 critical areas?
Matthew,

Unfortunately, for the moment, I am precluded from stating them simply. However, I have on these very pages alluded to them many times over. Suffice it to say that O-Sensei left very clear markings for anyone who wanted to follow his path after he was no longer with us. One hint - it is most certainly not found in Daito-Ryu, nor in the tenets of any religion. I am most certainly not the only one who knows these things. It is for certain that many people know these things. I guess that sometimes when they feel like it matters, they pass the information along to those who for one reason or another meet their standards for transmission.

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Also, regarding scholars (all are essentially self-appointed in my view), haven't the leading minds in most fields disagreed at one point or another? I recall my anthropology classes in which the question came up on whether race was a valid concept or not. Both seemed to have their points based on valid interpretations of data.
At any rate it seems all the more important for folks to share their perspectives. Going back to my favorite little analogy, if the three blind men stop their conversation, they continue with their respective perspectives, but through communication and debate they might stumble upon the golden question (patent pending)...like most other major advances in human history seem to have come about from. (I ended in a preposition on purpose...I'm such a rebel!)
Now that's ridiculous!
You lost me at, "scholars..." What I can say is that, regardless of opinions O-Sensei left a very clear path for us to follow. Anyone, and I do mean anyone who tells you otherwise, regardless of their pedigree, talent, skill, likability or what have you simply is quite mistaken. Anything else they are selling is in my book (one I will most likely write one day so that some future scholars can endlessly pontificate as to what I meant) should also be met with incredulity, a wink and smile. Most assuredly, I won't pay a dime for it. You shouldn't either.

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Take care, and seriously, thank you for offering a translation! I'm still digesting.
I would love to hear your thoughts after your sort through them... either here or via private message if you so choose.

...best in training to all.

.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2009, 05:26 PM   #28
Peter Goldsbury
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Peter Goldsbury's Avatar
Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,000
Japan
Offline
Re: An interesting relationship

Hello Matthew,

I see that you joined AikiWeb in 2005, Shaun joined in 2002, which was a year after I became a member. I state this as an oblique way of asking whether you regularly use the archive of posts here and in other forums like Aikido Journal and E-Budo. I recommend that you do so. Of relevance to this thread are threads on Omoto Theology and a number of threads on Misogi (no-gyo). The interpretation of the Kojiki (especially the deities mentioned in the first book) is also a major area, as is kotodama, but there are not many threads on these difficult topics.

It should also be clear to you by now that my general approach to these questions, and Shaun's, are different in some respects.

Best wishes,

PAG

P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Hiroshima, Japan
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2009, 05:34 PM   #29
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,113
United_States
Offline
Re: An interesting relationship

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Hello Matthew,

I see that you joined AikiWeb in 2005, Shaun joined in 2002, which was a year after I became a member. I state this as an oblique way of asking whether you regularly use the archive of posts here and in other forums like Aikido Journal and E-Budo. I recommend that you do so. Of relevance to this thread are threads on Omoto Theology and a number of threads on Misogi (no-gyo). The interpretation of the Kojiki (especially the deities mentioned in the first book) is also a major area, as is kotodama, but there are not many threads on these difficult topics.

It should also be clear to you by now that my general approach to these questions, and Shaun's, are different in some respects.

Best wishes,

PAG
Peter,
I don't use the archives, but I will start reading through them. Thank you for the suggestion!
Take care,
Matthew

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2009, 09:49 AM   #30
Misogi-no-Gyo
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 498
Offline
Re: An interesting relationship

Quote:
mathewjgano wrote: View Post

Hi Shaun,
First, what are the 3 critical areas?
Matthew,

Only because it came up in another thread I felt that a hint would be welcome. Read the following post and ask yourself the same basic questions that Mr. Holliop asks himself. They are interesting questions, one that deserve answers. The funny thing is that depending on who you ask you will receive a very different story, most of which would be only slightly on the mark. It is so aptly quoted in a Pink Floyd song, "It's a battle of words, and most of them are lies..." Of course in this case, I wouldn't call them lies, but rather it is simply that people aren't really looking for the answer because when they find the answer it will:
  1. invalidate their current training methods
  2. invalidate their current teacher's training methods
  3. invalidate their current teacher/dojo/organization...
  4. require them to reprioritize their own training
  5. require them to reevaluate their own potential/limitations/abilities/talent/understanding... err, credentials???
    and most importantly
  6. require them to start from scratch

O-Sensei did in fact designate specific essentials as core to his Aikido. He also set up a way (path, michibiku) for students to both locate and train in these essentials after he was gone. He left absolutely clear markers to locate them and designated specific teachers under whose direction these skill sets could be trained. The information is clearly out there and has been all along.

The conversation of late as to Internals being discussed in that thread is only one area to be studied. I pointed out that things were missing from Aikido years ago on these very pages. My views were "put aside" at that time. No worries... I am sure I will find it very ironic when the next round of "Aikido needs X or it isn't Aikido" comes about. Once again some future group of outsides will come across one of these markers in their own training. They will point out that no one in Aikido is making X a point of their training and how people within Aikido need to go through "them" to rediscover it. I am sure their opinions will be put aside for a while, status quo, and all that. At some point, however, Aikidoka, themselves will realize something is missing from their training. They will look to their seniors, their teachers and to their organization and wonder, "Where are these things?" and even eventually ask themselves, "Why hath Aikido forsaken me?" as has recently occurred, and will possibly look outside of Aikido to find their answers. This is not a bad thing necessarily, as it is always good to look around and not keep one's head in the sand. However it does do Aikido and O-Sensei a great disservice, because the efforts he made to allow for the dissemination of his art are being ignored.

The core essentials of O-Sensei's art have always been there, are not kept secret, are trained in every day at dojos around the world. They are most certainly part and parcel in understanding, practicing, applying and living a life of Aiki. In some respects, I look forward to the day when I can speak openly about these things. However certain things will have to take place that I am not looking forward to, but that is the circle within which we all must exist. In any case, I am sure that regardless of what I say or when I say it, there are those who already understand, there will be those who will understand, there will be those who will not be able to understand, and those who do not want to understand. In other words, nothing will really change much, if at all.

Best in training to all...

.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2009, 11:02 AM   #31
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,113
United_States
Offline
Re: An interesting relationship

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote: View Post
Matthew,

Only because it came up in another thread I felt that a hint would be welcome. Read the following post and ask yourself the same basic questions that Mr. Holliop asks himself. They are interesting questions, one that deserve answers.
Best in training to all...

.
Hi Shaun,
Well I certainly agree with what he was saying...or at least seemed to be implying, in that I don't think physical ability is necessarily the only benchmark...according to O Sensei, as I guess his intent to have been. It may be central, but not the center of importance. This idea resonates deeply with me because, speaking for myself, being physically powerful is pretty unimpressive; to my mind, having a structure that is impeturbable is a waste without a keen mind and a stout, other-regardig heart...er...applying it for the benefit of the world around us to whatever extent we can do so. That's just my opinion, and granted I'm a bit of an idealist, but what we do with our power is what actually carries importance to me, specifically, how we help make Things better, so when it comes to learning the "secret" to "real" power, I'm less inclined to be super motivated. Don't get me wrong, I see real serious value to real serious power, but I see it as maybe 33% of the whole.
At any rate, before I go off on a tangent about how everyone should help make the world a better place by being more other-regarding and feeding starving kids in Cambodia (Everyone, please consider donating to PEPY, CCF, etc. ), I'd like to express my appreciation for your efforts to illuminate some of this stuff. I'll try and post a response to your description of the doka soon so we can see what we may see of what I might see.
Take care,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2009, 11:46 AM   #32
Basia Halliop
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 711
Canada
Offline
Re: An interesting relationship

I'm actually a she, but other than that, carry on with your conversation.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2009, 03:03 PM   #33
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,113
United_States
Offline
Re: An interesting relationship

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
I'm actually a she, but other than that, carry on with your conversation.
For the record I deferred to Mr. Raven's use of "Mr."
Whew! Dodged that one!

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2009, 04:09 PM   #34
Misogi-no-Gyo
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 498
Offline
Re: An interesting relationship

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
I'm actually a she, but other than that, carry on with your conversation.
Basia,

Whew! That's a relief. I thought your name was kind of feminine, but with names that are not typically American, it is unfortunately easy for me to go either way. In this case, I went with male, as there was a higher chance that you were a guy, as more guys than girls practice martial arts, but then again... in this case I was clearly off by more than 50 %....

Best in training to you and all...

.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2009, 06:37 AM   #35
rob_liberti
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Connecticut
Location: East Haven, CT
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,402
United_States
Offline
Re: An interesting relationship

Quote:
they will point out that no one in Aikido is making X a point of their training and how people within Aikido need to go through "them" to rediscover it
That was not my experience with Mike or Dan. And if you recall I wasn't all that friendly with Mike. But to give them both their props, they both spent a whole lot of time asking if there were people in aikido who had the skills they were so interested in. To my knowledge, Mike is not teaching anything other than workshops - there is no agenda to build up a student base that I can see. As for Dan, I know him to be actively trying to avoid more students coming in so he can focus on the utility of the skills (which is a lot more interesting than focusing on the building/establishing of them) so I'm pretty sure there is no agenda to get people to go through him either. From where I am standing it appears that Dan is trying to teach aikido teachers so that aikido students can learn those skills within their own art.

I'm sure there are OTHER aspects to O-sensei's vision of aikido other than just aiki - no one was ever suggesting otherwise. I would imagine those aspects to cover more of the "do" part, while the "aiki" seems to apply a bit more to what Dan and Mike have been trying to help us out with.

Rob
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2009, 01:56 PM   #36
Misogi-no-Gyo
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 498
Offline
Re: An interesting relationship

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
That was not my experience with Mike or Dan. And if you recall I wasn't all that friendly with Mike. But to give them both their props, they both spent a whole lot of time asking if there were people in aikido who had the skills they were so interested in. To my knowledge, Mike is not teaching anything other than workshops - there is no agenda to build up a student base that I can see. As for Dan, I know him to be actively trying to avoid more students coming in so he can focus on the utility of the skills (which is a lot more interesting than focusing on the building/establishing of them) so I'm pretty sure there is no agenda to get people to go through him either. From where I am standing it appears that Dan is trying to teach aikido teachers so that aikido students can learn those skills within their own art.

I'm sure there are OTHER aspects to O-Sensei's vision of aikido other than just aiki - no one was ever suggesting otherwise. I would imagine those aspects to cover more of the "do" part, while the "aiki" seems to apply a bit more to what Dan and Mike have been trying to help us out with.

Rob
Hi Rob,

Well as far as making friends here on AikiWeb, I would say that Mike and Dan are there own worst enemies. Now I say that with two caveats, the first being they have been here a long time now, and like annoying siblings, we have come to love them and can't really imagine what life would be like without them. Second, I am no better at making friends than they... although I am sure most would say that over the years we have, as a collective group of sometimes irreverent and needy children, gotten much better at it as time goes on.

Otherwise, if you check the record, I have always advocated people go and check out what it is that Dan and Mike are doing. I am a true believer that whatever it is they are sharing is good for everyone to get to feel with their own two hands. It is nice to see them come out from the shadows and mystery that DRAJ and CMA are most often shrouded in. Regardless of whether Dan, Mike or I are right, wrong, or partially right and wrong about our opinions, people may adopt methods to better learn quality movement. Hopefully that will translate into developing meaningful skills for them and any future students that come along their way.

Things have developed nicely over the past few years. I am sure they will continue to do so. My hope is that as Dan, Mike, Akuzawa Sensei and others help shed the misconceptions about what it is they are doing by sharing with martial artists from around the globe that they may come across the right group of Aikidoka who will help them shed their own misconceptions about something being missing from the art of Aikido, itself.

I am sometimes referred to as a "naysayer" but again, if you check the record, I was politely saying something was missing back in the early 1990's. I tried to elucidate that with the interviews and articles that I conducted and published and distributed out just as Stanly did with his Aiki-News. People really weren't that receptive to the obvious statements that some very senior people were making at the time. In some ways, perhaps today's "climate change" will warm things up enough that after the pursuit for body skills winds down and Aikidoka come back to the "What is missing from Aikido" question, they may rediscover those articles, re-read them and come to their own conclusions about what is really missing from their then current practice. I am passionate that things not get lost, too. However, when it comes to preserving O-Sensei's Aikido, I have a more complete picture to share than merely the transmission of body skills.

FWIW

Best in training to you and all...

.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Master/slave relationship and Instructor with ego sad_robert Anonymous 45 05-31-2009 02:17 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 2 Peter Goldsbury Columns 3 04-19-2007 04:53 AM
Interesting experience Michael Meister General 16 09-06-2004 09:45 AM
Some interesting news on Steven Seagal. Zulk General 33 01-26-2004 02:56 PM
Interesting footwork clip bob_stra General 5 03-24-2003 04:41 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:29 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate