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Old 07-28-2009, 03:49 AM   #1
Dusko Bojic
 
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Knees and Shoulders - avoiding damage

Hallo all,

I am planning to start training Aikido now in September and am still researching to see weather Aikido suits me or not.

The MAIN reason for me willing to train Aikido is the development of Ki and being able to develop the ability to live in harmony with all of creation.
I would also like something physical so mere meditation isn't an option.
After reading many threads here on the forum I see that many get injured knees or shoulders, even though I felt this being a "peaceful" martial arts
You see my younger sister trained Judo many years ago. During the competition she hurt her knee and it was so bad she could not continue training any longer. Even today she has problem with it when running.

I am not willing to get in a position where my knee or shoulder gets hurt bad Is there a possibility to train without getting damaged?

Even though considered peaceful art it still hurts people doesn't it? Some of you might say "only if you resist" so, I could pay a huge price with my damaged shoulder or knee just because I wasn't aware enough of my or Tori's Ego issues? I am right?

Is there a possibility to train solo?

The more I read about people being hurt the less I like the idea of joining my Dojo. If I am into getting hurt or hurting people I would no doubt join kick-boxing but I am not. I am trying to find harmony and peace within me and without me and apparently Aikido is that. Or is it?

Is there any other peaceful martial arts which are knee/shoulder safe for me to consider?
I was thinking about Iaido maybe? Does Iaido focus on Ki developing?

Even Kendo came to mind, I know it is not that peaceful but kind of protected behind the Bogu and I feel one can not damage the knees nor shoulders that easy in this martial art. What say you?

Try and understand after seeing my sister having knee problems and not being able to go jogging makes me think twice to join or not to join Aikido the peaceful martial art.

Help with advice please

Kind regards, Dusko

"Accepting what Is. You don't try to change it. You don't run from it and you don't try to fight with it. You just accept it and embrace it."Aikido
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Old 07-28-2009, 04:19 AM   #2
grondahl
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Re: Knees and Shoulders - avoiding damage

There is no physical activity that does´nt include the risk of injury. People get hurt doing yoga, zasen, running, bicycling, soccer, etc

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Dusko Bojic wrote: View Post
Is there a possibility to train without getting damaged?
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Old 07-28-2009, 06:16 AM   #3
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Re: Knees and Shoulders - avoiding damage

Life results in injury. in the past two months I have hurt myself a few time... note I hurt MYSELF. No one actually hurt me. Well unless you count Sunday's Nikkyo but then I did resist a little and it didn't do me damage.

Injuries can happen and maybe they will happen but I don't think its really a big enough concern to keep you from practicing aikido. Just use your head and do things as you are taught. And don't resist. Any physical activity has the potential for injury.

Go try a class or two and don't stress about it. Your going to wind up scaring yourself out of trying something you may just really enjoy.
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Old 07-28-2009, 07:55 AM   #4
John Furgerson III
 
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Re: Knees and Shoulders - avoiding damage

You MUST buy the nice, expensive kneww pads my friend!! This is a MUST! I bought mine at Wal-Mart and they are a life saver. Do this BEFORE you take a class because you will probably be doing a lot of techniques on your knees.

Mine are black and work great.My knees get a little sore sometimes after class but in a few hours they are fine. I've been doing Aikido for a while now and I have no problems jogging or walking.

Your knees will be fine as long as you wear some type of nice pads. You may also want to wear white socks during class or buy the things some dojos sell to wear. I do this to protect my feet while training. when you get up fast to start a technique, your toes may get something like a carpet burn. So protect them also.

You'll be fine.
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Old 07-28-2009, 08:29 AM   #5
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Re: Knees and Shoulders - avoiding damage

Hey Dusko,

I think you have a couple of misperceptions here. First, you seem to believe that most injuries in aikido are inflicted by one's partner. This isn't true -- as in other physical activities, most injuries are self-inflicted and result from poor technique, poor conditioning, attempting to do something you're not ready to do, etc. A dojo is a place of martial arts practice, and very few dojos of any kind take a cavalier attitude towards injury -- if we did, as my sensei says, we would soon have no one to practice with.

Your other misunderstanding is about the relation between peacefulness and aikido, and what any of that has to do with actions and physical consequences. You say that you want to study aikido because you want "to live in harmony with all of creation", which makes me think that you are one of those who believe that you'll walk into the dojo on your first day of class, and sensei will begin to enlighten you on the cosmic harmony. In fact, what sensei will almost certainly do is show you the basics of how to stand properly, and then show you how to step properly, and how to turn properly, and then how to fall properly...and then you will spend a sweaty hour or two practicing what you are taught. The word "harmony" will not be mentioned, nor will the word "peace". When class is over, students will bow off the mat, probably do some housekeeping chores around the dojo, change in the dressing room, and leave. They will not gather in a circle and discuss how peaceful their practice of aikido is making them and how they're coming with that cosmic harmony thing; they will talk about their kids or what happened at work or going to get a beer.

I don't say that by way of mocking your desire for harmony and peacefulness, although it may sound that way. The (IMO simplistic) label of "the peaceful martial art" is extremely misleading, and burdens aikido with unreasonable expectations. Aikido, like many other pursuits, is one through which a practitioner may improve his or her character in various ways, but the improvement comes from the practitioner's sincere practice more so than what he/she is practicing. In aikido, for example, many of us have come to terms with physical limitations -- and if you don't think that that is the pursuit of peacefulness, consider that the first person you must make peace with is yourself, and that there is no more fundamental way to make peace with yourself than in your physical body. That we happened to accomplish this on the mat of an aikido dojo is happenstance: people find this same peace on the playing field, the hiking trail, the running track. Aikido has no exclusive claim to that magic.

I think you've also got some misunderstandings about martial arts in general. You say "If I am into getting hurt or hurting people I would no doubt join kick-boxing", and then you further cite iaido as a less injurious, more peaceful possibility. There's a wealth of unintended irony here. The purpose of iaido is to draw a sword and kill an opponent, and the fact that you don't actually do this doesn't change iaido into decorative sword-waving. Kickboxers have killed very few people over the years; the same cannot be said of iaido's antecedents.

So, think about exactly what it is you want. No practice is guaranteed to be injury-free. No martial arts practice is going to take you by the hand and lead you to ki or peacefulness or enlightenment. Any martial arts practice is going to be 99% ordinary everyday sweat and effort among people who are not monks or enlightened beings...it's not going to be anything like the movies. Is it worthwhile? For me, sure, or I wouldn't be doing it. But I'm looking for different things than the things you say you are looking for.
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Old 07-28-2009, 09:05 AM   #6
Michael Hackett
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Re: Knees and Shoulders - avoiding damage

Well put, Mary, well put indeed.

Michael
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Old 07-28-2009, 09:21 AM   #7
Ryan Seznee
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Re: Knees and Shoulders - avoiding damage

Ibb, you are a very practical person, and you are right for about 99% of the dojos when you say that it is not monks and enlightenment, but don't forget that Aikido was part of a required regiment of training for a sect of Shinto (which O'Sensie was a part of). It does have some religious implications, and it is still active in some parts of the world (although mostly Japan).

Dusko, I have trained in Aikido for a year and a half and been on a track and field team for 3 years (high school). In my time with track and field I saw 12 people get injured, but in my aikido training, I have only seen 2. All physical activity can cause injury. I am told wet floors cause 2 billion dollars in medical bills a year (although I doubt that statistic).

I also think everyone has a misconception of kick boxing. I have a friend who is a boxer, he is not a mean or sadistic person who wants to hurt people. He just likes to compete. The art of boxing, like any other type of art, can be used to hurt or benifit people depending on how you use it. A cartoonist could delight children or use his talents to hurt people's feelings. The intent is what matters, not the art itself. That is what seperates Aikido from Aikijujutsu, Judo, or BJJ in my opinion. Aikido was made "as a gift to my human brothers" (O'sensei), so we specifically take out some of the more vicious aspects that were originally in the precursor arts of Aikido (such as eye gouging, strikes to genitals, finger, arm, and leg breaking techniques, and lethal techniques) of it so our oponate does not get harmed. We do not intend to hurt others.
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Old 07-28-2009, 10:29 AM   #8
Janet Rosen
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Re: Knees and Shoulders - avoiding damage

Quote:
John Furgerson III wrote: View Post
Your knees will be fine as long as you wear some type of nice pads.
John, I know you mean well but that is such false bliss! Yes, knee pads will cushion your knees from some aches and pains in kneewalking and such. But pads and braces do NOTHING to prevent acute knee injury if you torque your knee, somebody falls on your knee, your foot catches in your hak and you land on your knee....

To the original poster: injuries happen in ALL physical activities, and accidents happen in all of life. Many aikido injuries are due to improper attention to proper posture, body use and safe body mechanics.

Janet Rosen
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"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 07-28-2009, 12:59 PM   #9
bkedelen
 
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Re: Knees and Shoulders - avoiding damage

It is widely understood within the coaching community that that having your athletes develop general physical fitness is the primary way to avoid injury when participating in their specific event or sport. Since Aikido itself has few physical fitness benefits compared to a even a basic strength and conditioning program, I am of the opinion that general physical preparation (gpp) should be undertaken as a co-requisite of Aikido, if only to mitigate some of Aikido's injury potential. Most other martial arts implement some form of gpp as an important aspect of training, at least initially, and throughout a competitive career. While it is accepted that generalized fitness is not a requirement for performing high quality Aikido, it is unfortunate that such an attribute is not seen as a correlate of, and likely a requisite of the development of high quality Aikido.
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Old 07-28-2009, 02:12 PM   #10
Michael Hackett
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Re: Knees and Shoulders - avoiding damage

Hi Dusko,

You can get hurt in Aikido, and hurt badly. Most don't, although all of us get bumps and bruises now and again. I personally don't feel that there is much to worry about specifically concerning shoulders and knees. Your knees will get sore from seiza and suwari waza, just like everyone else. Your shoulders will get sore from being pinned, but you can mitigate that by not being macho and tapping out when you are controlled and before the pain sets in. Just ease into the training and pay attention to your basic ukemi. Take it easy and trust your sensei to help you progress. Eventually you will be able to do everything on the mat safely. Truly the best thing you can do is to leave your ego and any sense of machismo at home - that's what will get you hurt. Give it a try and have fun at it.

Michael
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Old 07-28-2009, 02:13 PM   #11
ninjaqutie
 
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Re: Knees and Shoulders - avoiding damage

I will have to agree with the others. There is always a chance of injury, but statistically, you have a higher chance of getting injured playing golf then you do martial arts. Strange, but true.

An important thing to remember is that you can't train in aikido without experiencing some level of discomfort or pain. How else do you know how it feels and how to do it? The level of pain in mostly determined by you. Keep in mind that you can always tap if the pain is too much.

You also asked about iaido, well I have a knee that bothers me. In iaido, you tend to do a lot of forms from seiza (sitting). There is a lot of up and down motion involved (rising & returning to seiza), sliding on your knee(s), etc (aikido has a lot of the same motions as well). I can tell you that some days my knees are pretty sore. If you were to wear knee pads, that may minimize or eliminate that problem (just ask your sensei). Now, most of the sitting forms do have standing forms that are quite similar, but most start from seiza if able to do so.

As far as harmony.... I don't think that is the main focus of class. I would say it is more of a bi-product. You just sort of understand after taking classes for a while. My best advice for you would be to actually go, sit and watch a few classes. This will give you a better idea of what actually goes on in the dojo you are wanting to join.

Good luck.

Last edited by ninjaqutie : 07-28-2009 at 02:17 PM.

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Old 07-28-2009, 09:01 PM   #12
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Re: Knees and Shoulders - avoiding damage

Quote:
Benjamin Edelen wrote: View Post
It is widely understood within the coaching community that that having your athletes develop general physical fitness is the primary way to avoid injury when participating in their specific event or sport. Since Aikido itself has few physical fitness benefits compared to a even a basic strength and conditioning program, I am of the opinion that general physical preparation (gpp) should be undertaken as a co-requisite of Aikido, if only to mitigate some of Aikido's injury potential.
Benjamin, well said. I don't think aikido is entirely alone in this among the martial arts, but it's maybe further along the scale: it's one of those activities that require good conditioning (in order to practice safely and effectively) much more so than they develop said conditioning. Alpine skiing is another good example: the demand on the muscles comes immediately, the building of muscular strength lags behind, which is why you get a lot of once-a-season skier injuries. If you ski, or practice aikido, or any of these activities, and you manage to stay injury-free, eventually you will develop decent conditioning...but it's not the safest or most effective way to get there.
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Old 07-28-2009, 09:30 PM   #13
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Knees and Shoulders - avoiding damage

Janet Rosen wrote:

Quote:
To the original poster: injuries happen in ALL physical activities, and accidents happen in all of life. Many aikido injuries are due to improper attention to proper posture, body use and safe body mechanics.
Turning 44 a couple of weeks ago and being told by my doctor after reviewing my cervical MRI that "it appears you have been in a car accident or something, your neck has alot of damage". You need to take care of your spine. I have thought alot about what my future holds for me. FWIW, I have never been in a car accident, but have recieved lots of repetitive trauma from ukemi and from 15 years as a pole vaulter.

In hindsight, I think the OP brings up some very, very good concerns. I have been re-evaluating much of my training and I am currently involved in obtaining my Certified Personal Training Credential through ACSM.

Looking at various modalities of training from Yoga, BJJ, Judo, and Aikido...and seeing the injuries that occur in middle aged males that take up martial arts I have come to the conclusion that we move folks too fast sometimes before they are properly conditioned.

Unfortunately, most people come to a dojo and want to learn a martial art. Most of them I see come in are in very poor condition to even really begin training rigorously. They either get injured or they quit after a few months due to the frustration of not getting any better.

I think we'd do them a better favor by taking it very slowly, educating them on posture, proper movement, giving them exercises and conditioning that will allow them to improve their balance, posture, and core strength, weight loss, and nutrition...before we ever even let them do the first "martial technique".

Alas, if we did that, then we'd be broke and have no students I am betting!

So, what we do instead is provide "martial entertainment" for them. Some of them stay and "survive" the rest of them decide it is not or them, or get injured and move on.

I think what would really be Ideal is if we took the "Mr Myagi" approach and did the whole "wax on/wax off" thing until they were ready and prepared to train.

I was one of the fortunate ones I think. I have always been athletic and came to the martial arts and "survived". then again, I am now finding out after almost 20 years of training that I have done some very stupid things in the name of "hard training" that are now catching up with me.

I am also, just now, after close to 20 years...learning what it really means to be in shape, conditioned, flexible, and "martial".

It is much different that what I have thought it was in the past.

I agree with Janet's assessment. I believe most injuries occur because of the reasons she states.

In addition, Mary also is correct in her assessment!

Mary wrote:

Quote:
If you ski, or practice aikido, or any of these activities, and you manage to stay injury-free, eventually you will develop decent conditioning...but it's not the safest or most effective way to get there
yeah, it is how I did things, and I am hoping that for the people I am responsible for in the future, that we don't train in this "trial and survive" methodolgy!

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Old 07-28-2009, 10:21 PM   #14
Janet Rosen
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Re: Knees and Shoulders - avoiding damage

Kevin, thanks for your input. I started aikido as an out of shape 41 yr old; I'm in some ways in better shape now at 54 but....blew out my knee, needed surgery and rehab and ended up with terrible arthritis in it....I've definitely changed my approach to ukemi - but to some degree it's by asserting my needs as a partially disabled person; a newbie to aikido (unless he had a pre-existing condition the instructor agreed to work around) wouldn't have a prayer of going against dojo conventions in most places.

Janet Rosen
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Old 07-28-2009, 11:19 PM   #15
crbateman
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Re: Knees and Shoulders - avoiding damage

Just my $0.02, but you can get hurt in Aikido. You can also get hurt sitting at home in your kitchen. Even if you hide under the bed, it might fall on you. As I see it, no matter what the activity, the chance of injury increases sharply the more you are worried about being injured. Train diligently, and focus sharply. The rest is up to chance. Some days you get the bear, and other days, well...
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Old 07-29-2009, 06:23 AM   #16
Dusko Bojic
 
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Re: Knees and Shoulders - avoiding damage

First of all thank you ALL for contributing to this thread you are very helpful.
I especially would like to give thanks to Kevin Leavitt and bkedelen since their replies totally resonated with my question.

Quote:
I think we'd do them a better favor by taking it very slowly, educating them on posture, proper movement, giving them exercises and conditioning that will allow them to improve their balance, posture, and core strength, weight loss, and nutrition...before we ever even let them do the first "martial technique".
Quote:
It is widely understood within the coaching community that that having your athletes develop general physical fitness is the primary way to avoid injury when participating in their specific event or sport. Since Aikido itself has few physical fitness benefits compared to a even a basic strength and conditioning program, I am of the opinion that general physical preparation (gpp) should be undertaken as a co-requisite of Aikido, if only to mitigate some of Aikido's injury potential. Most other martial arts implement some form of gpp as an important aspect of training, at least initially, and throughout a competitive career. While it is accepted that generalized fitness is not a requirement for performing high quality Aikido, it is unfortunate that such an attribute is not seen as a correlate of, and likely a requisite of the development of high quality Aikido.
What kind of general physical fitness do you suggest would be helpful in minimising possible Aikido injuries?
Are we talking about push ups, sit ups,.... I already am jogging 3-4 km every day (not much but trying to keep up with consistency).
I must say that I started with jogging and biking in April this year and didn't do any exercise in more than 10 years + I smoked 2 packs a day (last 10 years) and during my 5 year stay in Ireland (until 2005) I drank lots of stout so here you go. One can not see this on my body since I am not overweight (182cm tall and weigh 80 kg).

I do feel lots of clicking sounds in my neck though and this started after the war in Bosnia. I was in it for 2 years and at one stage I was stuck on a mountain in October month, raining constantly without any housing or tents ... raining directly on us for a whole week, cold temperature, windy, uniforms drying directly on the body, etc ...

I am 34 now and for the first time in my life I am realising the importance of bringing my body, mind and soul (Ki, Spirit, whatever) into harmony within and without (the Universe, my neighbour, nature, whatever). I am trying to make my Ego Me give place to my Humble Me (this is the part which needs sweating). Maybe something hard to do in this Ego based human culture but still not impossible. As Mahatma Gandhi said "Be the change you want to see in the world".

My aim is to develop spiritually through a peaceful martial art techniques without causing damage to my physical body and by doing this might even cause emotional damage.
Harmony between body, mind, emotions and spirit is the key to achieving this aim of mine. This is what I want from Aikido and not what I state Aikido necessary Is or what Aikido has become in our modern times.


Quote:
So, what we do instead is provide "martial entertainment" for them. Some of them stay and "survive" the rest of them decide it is not or them, or get injured and move on.
Thank you for this very helpful insight it will help me get prepared for my future Aikido training.

You see I wouldn't mind paying more money to instructors which tend to have less students but does spend more time in a very careful and systematic shaping of all aspects involved (physical body, mental/emotional mind, spiritual Ki).

Many tend to hurry the process (money, competition, etc) both Dojos and students (acording to info from the net) and how can one blame them, we live in a world which is speeding up day after day.
This is the main reason for me trying to SLOOOOW DOOOOWN but not on the expense of a hurt knee/neck/shoulder

After all your input I can "see" that there are at least 2 forms of Aikido trained these days.
The one is to entertain as many as possible where students tend to achieve "perfection" as fast as possible (could be Ego based)
and,
there is the Aikido which is focused in achieving harmony within and without through disciplined technical practise, achieving mental peace, developing patience and focusing on extending Ki into ALL aspects of our life.

So, it is all about finding the right Master, meaning which is right for me at this time of my life.
Hm ... I think I might give it a try and start Aikido at my local Dojo since I have read about the instructor Stefan Stenudd on his web page and I get very positive vibes about him.

Of course I would like to start with general physical fitness ASAP so please feel free to suggest exercises I could work with to minimise possible injuries. I always believed that proper preparation is half the way up the mountain.

I also believe that one can not get lost if asking for direction

Once again thank you all very much this was very helpful

Regards, Dusko

Last edited by Dusko Bojic : 07-29-2009 at 06:29 AM.

"Accepting what Is. You don't try to change it. You don't run from it and you don't try to fight with it. You just accept it and embrace it."Aikido
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Old 07-29-2009, 08:29 AM   #17
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Knees and Shoulders - avoiding damage

Dusko,

Man to be honest, I'd really recommend finding a really good Yoga teacher possbily as well. It is doing wonders for me and I am learning alot about myself and learning how to relax and develop my body.

I think any exercise you do is fine, push ups sit ups etc. whatever you do for conditioning, strength, flexibility, aerobic, anareobic....

Even if you do all that and are in really good shape....you still have to master the movements and kineseoloy of Aikido which is challenging.

It is a very emotional event for most of us to have someone grab, strike or attack us. We have to focus on ourselves as well as the attack of our partner. Most of us will contort our bodies and adapt postures and responses that are probably not correct. Guys like me (military background, big strong) tend to try and force things into compliance.

If we are off balance, knee is pointing the wrong way...holding our breath...straining, forcing...this is when we get hurt.

So, I think the key is to find a dojo and an instructor that takes his time and makes you feel safe when you move.

The dojo and the instructor, IMO, should be cautious, careful, and make sure that you are doing things correctly. If you feel force, strain, or "just not right"...well it probably isn't!

This is not to say that you cannot train fast, hard, agressive at somepoint. I personally believe that you must! However, that practice needs to be done properly and safely and in my experiences, I think it takes a while to get there.

Mary offers some very good advice I think on the whole Ki, harmony, spiritual aspects...you reach your own understanding of these as they come in your pracitce.

I am not a big Swami/Sensei worshiper personally and really believe in reaching enlightment and happiness through hard, disciplined, and habitual training. Give over to the training, but you cannot surrender your responsibility or mind to the Swami/Sensei.

I see too much of this in Aikido sometimes. That is, that simply by putting on a hakama, coming to the dojo, and surrendering ourselves that we will become what we want to be through O'Sensei or Osmosis.

the fact is, it is a gradual, long process of self discovery and mastery that is not always as clear cut, nor the same for any two people.

Recommend reading George Leonard Sensei's book on Mastery BTW.

Anyway, hope this helps some. Good luck.

Last edited by Kevin Leavitt : 07-29-2009 at 08:31 AM. Reason: post got all jacked up!

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Old 07-29-2009, 08:32 AM   #18
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Re: Knees and Shoulders - avoiding damage

Quote:
Dusko Bojic wrote: View Post
After all your input I can "see" that there are at least 2 forms of Aikido trained these days.
The one is to entertain as many as possible where students tend to achieve "perfection" as fast as possible (could be Ego based)
and,
there is the Aikido which is focused in achieving harmony within and without through disciplined technical practise, achieving mental peace, developing patience and focusing on extending Ki into ALL aspects of our life.
Hmm. Well, I'm sure that somewhere there are dojos that match these two descriptions, but they seem like extremes to me -- the sort of thing that's not often encountered in real life. I don't have anywhere near the experience with different dojos as some here, but I've been to a few seminars in the region, and we have friendly co-trainings with other dojos in our area, and none of them fit into your two types. Note, though, that you've described the two forms in terms of their purpose/intention rather than their effect. I don't know of a sensei who says (or believes) "I want to entertain as many as possible". In any event, although each dojo has its own feel and its way of doing things, the goal and the outcome of training -- whether to be "entertained" or to "achieve harmony" or whatever -- still tends to come down to the individual.

Quote:
Dusko Bojic wrote: View Post
So, it is all about finding the right Master, meaning which is right for me at this time of my life.
Yeah, I guess, sort of. It's about finding a sensei and dojo that will give you what you need -- which may be very, very different from what you are convinced you need right now. Being open to that possibility is important. Patience is also important -- as I said in my earlier post, you need to accept that your average day of training is going to be sweat and work and nothing particularly cosmic going on. Just go visit your local dojo, watch a class, and don't be put off if you don't see anything that looks particularly amazing going on. If you don't see anything obviously wrong, then sign up and give it a try. Train patiently and don't burden your training experience with too many specific expectations -- just experience what it is, rather than what you think it should be, and give it some time. If it doesn't seem worthwhile after a few months, then maybe you should consider another pursuit.
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Old 07-29-2009, 01:27 PM   #19
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Knees and Shoulders - avoiding damage

Mary wrote:

Quote:
Hmm. Well, I'm sure that somewhere there are dojos that match these two descriptions, but they seem like extremes to me -- the sort of thing that's not often encountered in real life. I don't have anywhere near the experience with different dojos as some here, but I've been to a few seminars in the region, and we have friendly co-trainings with other dojos in our area, and none of them fit into your two types. Note, though, that you've described the two forms in terms of their purpose/intention rather than their effect. I don't know of a sensei who says (or believes) "I want to entertain as many as possible". In any event, although each dojo has its own feel and its way of doing things, the goal and the outcome of training -- whether to be "entertained" or to "achieve harmony" or whatever -- still tends to come down to the individual.
I agree with Mary here, I don't think it is intentional or the goal...that is to "entertain" people.

I think most folks that run dojos or programs have some degree of frustration with the level of committment they put into their dojo vice and what the expect there students to do to improve...and there students simply do not put in the time or effort for whatever reason.

I suppose it is an over generalization on my part to say "many simply want to be entertained." I really don't think they mean it literally...but I think it is rare that you find folks that:

1. Understand the level of committment and training that is necessary to be good.

2. Are actually willing to do what they need to do in order to get better.

Many are simply satisfied with showing up to the dojo and doing whatever training is on the agenda for the night and then go home until the next class.

This is what I mean by "martial entertainment".

At some level, running a dojo, you simply have to accept that the pareto principle is alive and well and that 80% of the folks you have in your dojo will fall into this category.

That is not the same thing as saying that the sensei intentionally does this, there just simply is not enough hours in the day, or deep enough pockets to be 100% accountable and exclusionary in our practices. That is simply the reality of it.

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Old 07-29-2009, 02:49 PM   #20
Dusko Bojic
 
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Re: Knees and Shoulders - avoiding damage

Thanks a million Mary and Kevin

... I feel I need to sleep on this one and see what I am about to do.

You are being very helpful ! Thank you !

Kind regards, Dusko

"Accepting what Is. You don't try to change it. You don't run from it and you don't try to fight with it. You just accept it and embrace it."Aikido
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