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Old 07-29-2009, 11:36 AM   #376
MM
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Re: What is IT?

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
Sounds interesting. If you do the unbendable arm with me in this way, would I be able to feel the difference? And if so, what would be different?
I would think so for the former. I dunno, for the latter. Maybe one of these days we'll be able to try it in person and you can explain what the differences were like.

If I have to give an example of some difference, though ... I'd have to say that if you only use a one-way conduit example, you're going to have a rough time getting center on contact. If you learn to use the two-way conduit example, I think you'll have an easier time getting center on contact. Not that either of those, by themselves, will give you center on contact.

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
what about the water going up the other person's feet?
Shhhhh! That's the secret, inner teachings! Just don't mention water going up the nose technique. Or the waterfall technique of water falling down all around you then out and up all around you. Hush hush stuff.

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
You may be right for all I know. I get the impression that Dan is very very good and that can make very slight ability seem like nothing at all...and again, for all I know, it would be literally 0, but that is absolutely nothing, not .00000000001, which may simply seems like nothing by comparison (but might seem like something next to .00000000000000001).
Well, as you've seen Phi's response, it was a -2. I'd echo his response, too.
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Old 07-29-2009, 11:57 AM   #377
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
The point is, if we can describe aspects of aiki (not the whole) using relatively vague concepts like ki and floating, we should be able to describe it using other imperfect terms too.
Ah, if both are imperfect, then what would be the point of investing effort in coming up with "new" "imperfect" terms????

Sounds like a waste of time to me...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 07-29-2009, 12:09 PM   #378
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Doug Walker wrote: View Post
If you didn't think aikido teachers were'nt already changing day by day working to improve their aikido while they were teaching you I wonder just what you thought was happening??? If they now appreciate an new aspect of their art, so much the better.
If these skills are really fundamental, it would be the same as taking dancing lessons and after some time (months? years?) having your teacher exclaim: "You know what, I just found out this great thing: we're supposed to do this to music!"
On the other hand, a teacher should seek to improve his skills and if he finds out he is missing some fundamental aspect, the best he can do is probably just tell his students and learn this new thing as fast as he can. Not telling them is not really an option.
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Old 07-29-2009, 02:07 PM   #379
rob_liberti
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
Hi Rob,
Very interesting. Your descriptions were cool. Can I ask about it?

Do you think that big part of the aiki is literally a pressure manipulation in the body's hydraulic system (i.e. liquid pressure in muscles & tissues)? (I assume that ground path is the major conduit of force, driven by hara). How can nage protect (hide?) his own hara even while simultaneously driving the motion from there?

I always wondered, can aiki techniques (e.g. aiki-age) be done *extremely slowly* or is there an element of speed/timing that *must* be present? Assuming they can be executed slowly, are they then easier to counter, or do you find it is still 'immutable' or 'inexorable'? Do you still get the 'my ears are going up' feeling? Can you actually feel the pressure rising in the body? Or is that manifested differently? Do you find there is an ability (or way) to 'push back' against that rising feeling? Man! Sounds like ihtbf.

All of the above questions/views assume a lot, of course, and may be wrong..and hence unanswerable..

Cheers,
Josh
I really don't think aiki "is literally a pressure manipulation in the body's hydraulic system". It was just the best example I could come up with to describe that aspect of aiki done on me.

Of course you can attempt to use aiki against aiki.

The rest, I really think I'm far enough along to give a good enough answer. -Rob
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Old 07-29-2009, 02:08 PM   #380
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Ah, if both are imperfect, then what would be the point of investing effort in coming up with "new" "imperfect" terms????

Sounds like a waste of time to me...

Best,
Ron
Hi Ron,
For one reason, I think because different terms speak better to different people.
Also, an analogy might be: I've yet to hear anyone claim to be perfect at teaching "it," but I presume acquiring "new" teachers of it might still be useful and give a better cross section of what "it" can be. You're right, past a certain point, talk does nothing but waste time, but I think that's an individual matter of taste as to where exactly the line is between what is and isn't worth it.
take care,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 07-29-2009, 02:20 PM   #381
DH
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

I wonder if it's a good idea to be so absolute about things. Buying into this idea of these skills being just some basic foundational building block that has no depth--is way off the beam. Maybe that's all some people can see at this point in their training.
Other then debates on the internet-and mind you with an increasingly smaller number of very vocal detractors who day by day are making themselves irrelevant --I seem to be seeing just the opposite in person. I am enjoying camaraderie and a VERY positive "meeting of the minds" with Aikido teachers and students alike who are putting in the work. As one teacher commented to me recently "This is like graduate school for teachers!"
So I'm not really concerned with debating those who; can't do it, can't explain it, can't or won't show it, and frankly have no credible reputation for having any skills anyone considers remarkable in any way. What's the point?

Discussions about Aiki and aikido waza
I unabashedly talk about aiki and aikido techniques-why can't I? I was and am a student of aikido, and can, and do, stand on my own experience and abilities with anyone from a myriad of styles. These comments that I am somehow an outsider unable to discuss Aikido waza are disingenuous and only serve to further support isolationism and a comfort zone for naysayers. Is it "supportable" as a debate point in person? While I remain open to examining that- I haven't seen it yet. Instead I see myself putting it out there, standing there toe-to-toe as a mudansha with 4th, 5th, and 6th dans and they are completely unable to do anything to me, and I can pretty much do what I want --if someone has and issue with that-I'd like to hear what it is? I am quite sure that if I were getting handed my butt people would not be objecting then. I think it remains that a left over issue is that the physical side of Aikido is having to finally face capable people on two fronts; the truly martial and effective, and now with the very essence of their art itself; knowledge and ability in - aiki - being questioned and examined. Maybe its smart to consider that those doing the questioning are not AGAINST you but are FOR you and are trying to make a difference in the art.
The debates only exist on the internet --I only see definitive and concrete-answers in person. Aikido teachers are proving time, and time again, to be very open, humble, eager and pretty cool at that. Maybe things are just a whole hell of lot better than people realize or know about. The only negative comments I keep getting are not pointed at me. The negative ones are more along the lines that these teachers are ticked off at their Japanese teachers for being either unable or unwilling to teach them and telling them it takes twenty years!
As far as I am concerned "IT" is no longer debated with anyone who had felt it and can do it. I'm just going to continue having fun teaching aikido teachers and seeing all of us westerners improving together. I am looking forward to the day when some Japanese hombu 8th dan Shihan stands there totally outclassed and says to one of these teachers "What was that?" I hope, on that day, one of them says
"Well, I could explain it to you, but you wouldn't understand because you're Japanese! It's a cultural thing!"
Seriously though-I think its time we look to each other and help each other up the best we can instead of endlessly debating on the net. Get out and meet and see what you can do and what's out there. Be a good researcher. If this stuff is stopping and stymieing every single one of your teachers who encounters it- what does it say about you that you haven't at least checked it out. You might notice it isn't a pissing contest once it happens. Everyone makes friends-that's nothing to dismiss lightly.
Good luck in your training and hope to see you on the mat
Dan

Last edited by DH : 07-29-2009 at 02:22 PM.
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Old 07-29-2009, 02:42 PM   #382
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Anyone here with a Ph.D. in Physics want to post the equations for when a human goes from a walk cycle to a run cycle? Ain't gonna happen because no one out there can do that yet. Why do you think the major animation studios use motion capture instead of software based programming? The former is more realistic and the latter takes huge amounts of time to make realistic, bypassing physics altogether.
Heh. It wouldn't do you any good because it is a nonlinear function. This comes close.

The thing about gaits is that they undergo phase transitions. That is what you are talking about. See here: A sudden and discontinuous change in the stability state of the structure of a material, or the dynamics of a system (which are the same thing, actually). Phase transitions are what happens when water changes to vapor and vapor to plasma --and plasma is otherwise called -- "fire" ...

Oh, pish, --- Fire and Water? Silly me, that can't possibly mean anything ... never mind.

The more interesting thing in that second study is this part:

Quote:
these intrinsic dynamics serve as an important characteristic of a
motor system that is coupling to oscillatory perceptual information in the environment. A
classic experiment by Schmidt, Carello, and Turvey17 has shown that when finger
twiddling becomes leg swaying, these phase transitions between rhythmic modes can
even occur between people.
They had pairs of participants each sway a single leg while
seated beside each other. When they were able to perceive each other's leg movements,
the same phase tendencies as in Fig. 2 were exhibited by this two-person system.
Moreover, when subtle modulation of metronome rate occurs (even unbeknownst to
subjects), rapid compensation can occur in the relative asynchrony of tapping shown by
participants.18,19 For example, while participants tap to a metronome pulse, inter-pulse
intervals that change by +/- 10ms can be rapidly compensated for within just 2 or 3 taps.

This may be interpreted as rapid and "subliminal" phase transitions in sensorimotor
coordination. In fact, the same sorts of phase transition seen in these intrinsic motor
dynamics can also be shown in the dynamics of visual perception.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 07-29-2009, 02:59 PM   #383
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Ah, if both are imperfect, then what would be the point of investing effort in coming up with "new" "imperfect" terms????

Sounds like a waste of time to me...

Best,
Ron
Quote:
M. Ueshiba wrote:
In order to advance along this Way, first of all we must perfect ourselves.
The thing I like about the Western Way of knowledge is that it both soberly accepts the inevitability and ultimate irreducibility of error and imperfection, while simultaneously demanding to measure and then reduce it with an implacable passion.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 07-29-2009, 04:51 PM   #384
Michael McCaslin
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Ah, if both are imperfect, then what would be the point of investing effort in coming up with "new" "imperfect" terms????

Sounds like a waste of time to me...

Best,
Ron
It's worse than a waste of time. It's actually harmful to one's pursuit of these skills. Both Mike and Dan have technical backgrounds, and both have stated that Erick's descriptions do not apply to this type of body movement.

As someone trained in engineering, mechanical descriptions of these skills are very appealing to me. Indeed, I've gleaned some things from Mike's efforts in this area.

When Erick launches into soliloquies about catenary curves or propagation of shear forces, it's tempting to try to mine them for useful information because I understand some things about the language he is speaking. However, to do so presupposes that Mike and Dan's understanding of mechanics is sufficiently limited that neither one of them recognizes that Erick is describing the same thing they are doing and they just don't realize it. I'm not willing to take that gamble, especially since his descriptions don't really jive with my understanding (albeit very limited) of how these things are done.

My opinion is that Erick's understanding of mechanics is sort of an Achilles heel when it comes to progress, in that he seems content to believe that Mike and Dan's claims that they're not talking about the same thing stem from neither one of them taking the time (or perhaps not having the ability) to sufficiently analyze what is happening. I don't think he will let go of this idea until one of two things happens:

1. He actually goes to meet someone who can do these things, pays attention, and then reworks his model to account for what I'm confident will be new information to him. Then his current weakness would be a big strength, because he would likely come up with a model that those of us with a physics bent could understand and benefit from.

-or-

2. Someone who can actually do these things comes up with a mechanical model that is sufficiently detailed and obviously correct enough that Erick abandons his current model in favor of the new one.

I've been following these discussions for a while now, and I think these are both low probability events. But you never know...

At any rate, it's dangerous to take terms that already have a meaning which you understand and try to map them onto a skill set that you don't possess. You might end up thinking yourself into a corner. Sort of like smoking in a crowded room, you may end up affecting others. My advice to fellow data miners would be to consider the source carefully before you start digging.

FWIW,

Michael
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Old 07-29-2009, 05:54 PM   #385
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I wonder if it's a good idea to be so absolute about things.
Hi Dan,
I'm not sure if you'd consider me as one of the folks you're describing, but this is exactly what I'm trying to argue. My sense of these conversations goes like this: someone suggests physical aiki is "missing" from aikido (a fairly absolute statement); others suggest its out there to various degrees (in Aikido) or, like me, suggest reasons why it might not be so present as it could be; to which there is generally a reply that that isn't "it." That's my sense from a lot of skimming and bouncing back and forth between daddy-duties and the pc, so I understand I may be missing some important chunks from the conversation.

Quote:
Buying into this idea of these skills being just some basic foundational building block that has no depth--is way off the beam
.
Who is saying this? I get the impression people are saying these skills can take a lifetime worth of study if one is so inclined...that's hardly a building block without any depth. I think you may be missing what the "detractors" are saying (I've not read anything lately that detracted from the idea that what you're doing is anything other than amazingly effective; the detractions have largely come against Aikido proper...as I've perceived things, FWIW).

Quote:
Discussions about Aiki and aikido waza
I unabashedly talk about aiki and aikido techniques-why can't I?
Again, who is saying you can't or shouldn't? You have; you are right now; I hope you will continue to do so.

Quote:
I was and am a student of aikido, and can, and do, stand on my own experience and abilities with anyone from a myriad of styles. These comments that I am somehow an outsider unable to discuss Aikido waza are disingenuous and only serve to further support isolationism and a comfort zone for naysayers.
I disagree: the notion that you are an outsider has also added to the notion that Aikido can benefit from those things that have what Aikido is supposedly missing (i.e. can learn by connecting to other view points rather than segregating itself from them).

Quote:
Instead I see myself putting it out there, standing there toe-to-toe as a mudansha with 4th, 5th, and 6th dans and they are completely unable to do anything to me, and I can pretty much do what I want --if someone has and issue with that-I'd like to hear what it is?
That's great that you're able to show those higher ranked people that you're better than they are; I've not seen anyone suggest that ability is bad in any way. I don't see where you're finding an issue being made out of this...would you point me to it?

Quote:
I think it remains that a left over issue is that the physical side of Aikido is having to finally face capable people on two fronts; the truly martial and effective, and now with the very essence of their art itself; knowledge and ability in - aiki - being questioned and examined. Maybe its smart to consider that those doing the questioning are not AGAINST you but are FOR you and are trying to make a difference in the art.
I see people suggesting they're content and other people suggesting they shouldn't be. I see people suggesting they have an idea of describing aspects of "it" and other people suggesting they're flat-out wrong...usually without even addressing the description. That's where I perceive the absolutism to mostly be taking place. I get it that the profoundly effective nature of your training lends itself to speaking very assertively, and I don't doubt the validity behind that, I simply think the conversation could be improved on both "sides."
Quote:
If this stuff is stopping and stymieing every single one of your teachers who encounters it- what does it say about you that you haven't at least checked it out.
I'd like to hear what you think it would say about me. To me it would say only that I wasn't interested...although personally, I'm very interested and await the time to experience it directly. I wish I had dedicated myself more fully to my own training so I could say whether or not what I've done is anything like what you're doing.

Quote:
You might notice it isn't a pissing contest once it happens. Everyone makes friends-that's nothing to dismiss lightly.
Good luck in your training and hope to see you on the mat
Dan
The back and forth to debate often seems like a pissing contest, and as soon as people perceive it that way, it usually starts to become one.
Dan, seriously, what you do appears to be a great thing for a lot of people and I think it's interesting how inflated these discussions become over what usually appears like a bunch of small caveats to me. It's kind of a funny spiral. My best wishes to you and I appologize if I'm mischaracterized you or the other "outsiders" in any way. I personally value the outsider perspective and rely upon it to keep my views in check...to me such a name is only a compliment and I hope you take it that way if I ever describe you as such.
Take care,
Matthew

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 07-29-2009, 06:01 PM   #386
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

I'm really glad I'm only a shodan and therefore not expected to know much. My feeling is that my "IS" are woefully inadequate. I am however saving my vacation time and money for the chance to train with Dan and Mike. I hear they are really nice guy's who are more than willing to share what they know. One of the things I really like about their approach is the hands on you get with them. I also really like the idea of not knowing their rank. I think the whole rank structure of aikido needs to be thrown in the trash. Without the vetting process of competition it just doesn't mean much.
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Old 07-29-2009, 06:17 PM   #387
Sy Labthavikul
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
At any rate, it's dangerous to take terms that already have a meaning which you understand and try to map them onto a skill set that you don't possess. You might end up thinking yourself into a corner. Sort of like smoking in a crowded room, you may end up affecting others. My advice to fellow data miners would be to consider the source carefully before you start digging.
Thanks, Michael. I also have a technical background, but all this discussion of what is/isn't "it" and aiki using mechanistic terms I'm not 100% convinced are appropriate in this context (my favorite is vorticity when we aren't dealing with fluid flow) is making my head spin. Since I've always been fascinated by internal strength skills and how it relates to aiki, I always guiltily hope that some kernel of wisdom will drop in these discussions so I don't have to do the hard work of going and learning these things from someone reputable, but your cautionary call to reason kinda woke me up.

I remember about a year ago I met a friend of a friend who said he had studied with Tim Cartmell for years (who himself studied with a number of internal martial artists in Taiwan and mainland China). This gentleman, who was a trained engineer and worked for JPL, told me he had come up with a model of how internal strength differed from external strength.

He said external strength was the contraction of muscles, causing limbs to swing about joints. The extension of the arm really is the contraction of the anterior deltoid and the triceps, among other things. There's a limit to how far such muscle contractions can go, and our nervous system tends to fire muscle contractions in a piecemeal, isolated way, and this is its limitation. The muscle tension created also made it difficult to have tactile sensitivity because of our tendency to focus our attention on that muscle contraction. Sure, it jived with my understanding of anatomy so far.

Internal strength, however, was about the expansion of the fascial network surrounding the muscles, including the muscles themselves. He likened it to a hydraulic system, with pistons everywhere in the body. It aided the muscle contractions of the external strength system, allowing for less tension needed and therefore allowing the body to maintain a certain degree of relaxation. This relaxation, coupled with all these pistons everywhere, gives you a very sensitive tactile sensitivity, like a bunch of force sensors all over your body, allowing you to feel and respond to outside forces very quickly. Basically, training the fascia made your body into a geodesic dome, a tensegrity structure.

This fascinated me because I had begun studying myofascial anatomy trains and tensegrity as part of my physical therapy studies (http://www.anatomytrains.com/explore/tensegrity). I wasn't exactly sure HOW one was able to control certain fascia, but I let him continue his explanation with a demo.

Unfortunately, his demo was to blow out a candle flame with a short range, unchambered punch. He was surprised when I wasn't impressed; I told him I could also do that, and did so. It was something I did with college buddies as a parlour trick (along with the exploding beer bottle bottom trick). He then tried to demonstrate his tactile sensitivity with a few baguazhang and xingyichuan throws with me resisting; they didn't feel much different from the techniques I practiced with the aikidoka and judoka I know who would be quick to admit they don't know what internal strength is. It certainly didn't feel anything like the one time I was lucky enough to get uprooted by a student of Chen Bing at a taijichuan seminar.

So despite the appealing theory, I came away from the experience without the secret of internal strength, just a theory that in all likelihood would be lucky to be even similar to an analogy of whats going on, and the friendship of a fellow martial arts student just as perplexed as me. We probably would have learned more just cross training with each other than sitting in a bar, discussing biomechanics over beer, but to academics, theory (and beer) has got a dangerous appeal.

Oh well. Anyone know of a teacher in the Los Angeles area who's got "it"? I feel like I need to think less and train more.


---------------------------------
train as if the tengu will never visit, execute as if they already have
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Old 07-29-2009, 06:46 PM   #388
Lee Salzman
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
... snip ...

I see people suggesting they're content and other people suggesting they shouldn't be. I see people suggesting they have an idea of describing aspects of "it" and other people suggesting they're flat-out wrong...usually without even addressing the description. That's where I perceive the absolutism to mostly be taking place. I get it that the profoundly effective nature of your training lends itself to speaking very assertively, and I don't doubt the validity behind that, I simply think the conversation could be improved on both "sides."

... snip ...

The back and forth to debate often seems like a pissing contest, and as soon as people perceive it that way, it usually starts to become one.
Dan, seriously, what you do appears to be a great thing for a lot of people and I think it's interesting how inflated these discussions become over what usually appears like a bunch of small caveats to me. It's kind of a funny spiral.

... snip ...
I think the grand thrust of all of this is group-think. The echo chamber keeps people satisfied enough with what aikido they know. But the danger on the other side seems to be a reverse group-think that treats any alternate opinions, even the original conservative ones, as a threat to their opinions.

Maybe the alternate opinions could be misguided, overcomplicated, or even wrong, but by no means is the discussion diminished by the inclusion of these things unless they border on slanderous or somehow infringe on one's own ability to practice his own opinion.

Maybe the newer group-think is definitively better, but if it just keeps inside its own little clique to the exclusion of everything else, it will eventually stagnate and become outclassed by something else, just like it proposes to do to the older group-think.

Skeptical inquiry is the only reason one knows if something is missing from aikido in the first place, so you gotta be certain that it doesn't get thrown under the bus somewhere along the way.

That's the only reason I try to take part in the discussion. I have no illusions that I have anything to teach the actors in the dialogue, but when I see people appealing to authority or lineage or pervasiveness or just the inherent intractibility of discussing the subject, it just makes me want to shed some shades of gray on the black and white.

When I set aside my aikido training to go off down the rabbit-hole of yiquan, one of the things that struck me was how readily my teacher was absorbing stuff from all differents sources, both old and modern, and just making stuff up on the spot wherever and whenever it served his purposes, and truly making stuff his own. This was not a dead tradition he was teaching me that was set in stone. He was teaching me knowledge that was very alive - fresh from his imagination or synthesized from a variety of sources - but still holding true to what he understood as yiquan and learned from his teacher. And he was asking me to be skeptical of everything he himself was teaching me. If anything, that open-mindedness could be part of what is missing in aikido by itself.

Last edited by Lee Salzman : 07-29-2009 at 06:53 PM.
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Old 07-29-2009, 07:08 PM   #389
DH
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Matthew
It was nothing personal to me or about me. It was just the general direction of the discussion I was addressing; that the skills being discussed are just basics or foundational only, and that those forwarding them are from outside aikido, so as not to be able to demonstrate how they would work within aikido.
The only reason I personalized it at all is that I am only willing to discuss my own experiences in the demonstration and discussion of these things with teachers in the art. Other than that I just as soon leave it alone and let them address it later with their students.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 07-29-2009, 07:31 PM   #390
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
The echo chamber keeps people satisfied enough with what aikido they know.
Speaking personally, having other people echo my thoughts does little to satisfy. I agree group think is probably a big part of what contributes to mediocrity in any discipline. It falls under the category of I don't know what I don't know, except applies to groups. Ignorance reinforces itself insofaras it doesn't lead to understanding...If I'm making much sense.

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Maybe the alternate opinions could be misguided, overcomplicated, or even wrong, but by no means is the discussion diminished by the inclusion of these things unless they border on slanderous or somehow infringe on one's own ability to practice his own opinion.
I agree alternate opinions are vital to expanding and deepening discussions, even if only to serve as incorrect examples. I consider myself to fit this category: I am utterly ignorant, but I try my best to engage the conversation. Where I may have something insightful I'm glad, but I think i tend to receive more benefit than I give..Hopefully over time I can make that change a bit in the other direction. These conversations, charged though they often become, are highly useful for many of us to better our training because they compell us to consider what we are doing and what other people are doing and how the two might apply to each other.

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Skeptical inquiry is the only reason one knows if something is missing from aikido in the first place, so you gotta be certain that it doesn't get thrown under the bus somewhere along the way.
I don't think one needs to doubt something in order to inquire and learn something new about it.

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That's the only reason I try to take part in the discussion. I have no illusions that I have anything to teach the actors in the dialogue, but when I see people appealing to authority or lineage or pervasiveness or just the inherent intractibility of discussing the subject, it just makes me want to shed some shades of gray on the black and white.
Amen! I love shades of gray!

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If anything, that open-mindedness could be part of what is missing in aikido by itself.
And this is ultimately what I think is the main thrust of this issue: open-mindedness. We as students of whatever it is we're studying need to maintain an open mind where possible or we begin to preclude new information from joining the fray.

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Old 07-29-2009, 07:37 PM   #391
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Matthew
It was nothing personal to me or about me. It was just the general direction of the discussion I was addressing; that the skills being discussed are just basics or foundational only, and that those forwarding them are from outside aikido, so as not to be able to demonstrate how they would work within aikido.
The only reason I personalized it at all is that I am only willing to discuss my own experiences in the demonstration and discussion of these things with teachers in the art. Other than that I just as soon leave it alone and let them address it later with their students.
Cheers
Dan
Gotcha, thanks for clarifying that for me, Dan.
Take care!
Matt

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Old 07-29-2009, 10:57 PM   #392
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
..Buying into this idea of these skills being just some basic foundational building block that has no depth--is way off the beam. ..
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
...Most of the people I see talking about and describing "It" leave me with the impression that they're talking about some limited aspect of skills (the ki/kokyu/qi/jin skills) that are to be learned much like Calculus as part of your math education.
I wonder what kind of thing is it that can have these things said about it.
What is it, if not a foundational element? People aren't arguing that it's simple, are they? Rather, I though they were arguing as to whether there was one or not. The assumption must be that it is richly complex. I do not think that is the argument, but is that what you are countering? Is it still; the 'temerity' to try to make a simple physical model, what you were talking about? I thought your example of fluid-weight-dispersing refrigerator on a series of spindles with swiveljoints was a nice picture. (and something about the variable support guy-wires). I know i mangled it
Or what Mike said; "Or if it is not a skill to be learned"? I mean i know it is the toolbox (read: ‘way' you carry and move the body) .. but it is to be learned as a skill? It'll change the way you walk and other stuff; but it is learned, nontheless as a Calculus skill set, not an equation or a trick; but a set of skills to ‘achieve' things; for instance like in the shiko thread. Mike, ‘How are they not like Calculus, to be learned?' Is the problem the limited scope of the discussion? You know my next question, if that is it (?)
I do not read these correctly, I think. Maybe i snipped out of context; sorry if so. Is the way it changes *you* what is being alluded to?
Just *what* are we talking about? (I'm left wondering..).
Any thoughts are appreciated.
Josh

Last edited by thisisnotreal : 07-29-2009 at 11:11 PM.
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Old 07-29-2009, 11:21 PM   #393
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

What is aiki age?
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Old 07-30-2009, 02:41 AM   #394
rob_liberti
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Josh,

age meaning upward like "Kiriage" (upward cut)
I used that term to describe one application of aiki.

My interpretation of what you quoted from Dan is that he is saying that the aiki he is researching has plenty of depth.

My interpretation of what you quoted from Mike is that he is saying that there are additional aspects of the broader-skillset other than what Mike suspects Dan to be researching. While I suspect this to be true (maybe more specific health aspects, and maybe some martial aspects, who knows) I have not yet read about any of the "value-adds" from these other aspects, and would really like to. So far, it always kind of reads to me like: "but wait, there's more...." and then not a lot about WHAT anyone would want what is "more" for. That's my personal take. Agree?

Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 07-30-2009 at 02:45 AM.
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Old 07-30-2009, 03:30 AM   #395
Michael Douglas
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Thanks for that story Sy,
Quote:
Sy Labthavikul wrote: View Post
... I let him continue his explanation with a demo.

Unfortunately, his demo was to blow out a candle flame with a short range, unchambered punch. He was surprised when I wasn't impressed; I told him I could also do that, and did so. It was something I did with college buddies as a parlour trick (along with the exploding beer bottle bottom trick). He then tried to demonstrate his tactile sensitivity with a few baguazhang and xingyichuan throws with me resisting; they didn't feel much different from the techniques I practiced with the aikidoka and judoka I know who would be quick to admit they don't know what internal strength is. ...
Isn't that almost always the case?
I really think it is best to NOT try to explain some skills, not because that damages ability but because those with the biggest explanations often seem to have the lowest skills.
Tricks and tests however are valuable and should be used more often and developed into commonly accepted ways of gauging skills.
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Old 07-30-2009, 10:09 AM   #396
dps
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

In Mike's video, 'Mike_Sigman_Aikido_and_Internal_Strength',( http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...e+sigman&hl=en) he mentions "ground path coming up" and, "gravity and connection of the body going down".

How do you explain how these work in relation to the systems of the body; skeleton, muscles, nervous system, etc?

How does these relate to IT?

David
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Old 07-30-2009, 10:21 AM   #397
rob_liberti
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

I think Mike went into quite a bit of detail about that right here on aikiweb. I always wished I kept track of those posts to just make a wiki out of it all.

I would say that video does a good job helping people who have started thinking about IT to get their mind oriented toward the first steps of IT. How he uses his back on that video was pretty interesting, IIRC .

Rob
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Old 07-30-2009, 10:24 AM   #398
dps
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Sy Labthavikul wrote: View Post
This fascinated me because I had begun studying myofascial anatomy trains and tensegrity as part of my physical therapy studies (http://www.anatomytrains.com/explore/tensegrity). I wasn't exactly sure HOW one was able to control certain fascia, but I let him continue his explanation with a demo.
I could't get that link to work, how about these.

http://www.anatomytrains.com/

http://www.anatomytrains.com/explore.../fascialfabric

http://www.anatomytrains.com/explore...rity/explained

David

Last edited by dps : 07-30-2009 at 10:29 AM.
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Old 07-30-2009, 10:47 AM   #399
dps
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
I think Mike went into quite a bit of detail about that right here on aikiweb. I always wished I kept track of those posts to just make a wiki out of it all.
Could you give us an idea of what they said?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
I would say that video does a good job helping people who have started thinking about IT to get their mind oriented toward the first steps of IT. How he uses his back on that video was pretty interesting, IIRC .
This video would be a beginning of understanding what IT is?

David
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Old 07-30-2009, 11:39 AM   #400
Mike Sigman
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
My interpretation of what you quoted from Mike is that he is saying that there are additional aspects of the broader-skillset other than what Mike suspects Dan to be researching.
What I was really saying was that this discussion of "It" assumes a limited discussion and there's a lot more to it that anything *anyone* has indicated on AikiWeb to date. Hence my caution about "Joe Blow has it" because too often IME Joe Blow has some bits and pieces. I.e., I'm suggesting people tread carefully.

Mike
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