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Old 07-28-2009, 11:46 PM   #351
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
Both threads seem to have a common theme of something like "is there an IT that aikido is missing at all?" - with a hint of "is complacency in terms of developing aiki justified?" But maybe I got that wrong too.
Hi Rob,
I think you're right. I'm pretty sure the issue of whether or not Aikido is missing something is a central theme to both threads, and in my opinion at least, the complacency issue is a natural caveat to that. My hunch is that this thing "aiki" exists within a gradient and that Aikido proper probably has some form of it. It might be mostly missing "it" but my hunch is that there are pockets found in various places at the least, so the blanket statements don't seem quite right to me.

Quote:
I can say that Dan posts some compelling things about aiki. I posted a list of skills I found valuable that no one in aikido is claiming (to my knowledge) except maybe O-sensei and a few of his early deshi.
I agree! As a closet iconoclast I get a little extra pleasure from what folks like Dan have stirred up. They've sparked a furious debate and as long as people are actively engaged to that debate and remain dedicated to unraveling the virtues of the issues brought forth, I think it's only a good thing; to the absolute betterment of Aikido...whatever that may be. I also think those are good guideposts you provided for moving with what I think I understand aiki to be. Can I peform that way very well? No. Do I do that at all? I think sometimes I do. Am I missing "It"? I'm certainly missing a very big part no matter how you look at it, but I'm pretty sure I'm not operating at 0. Time will tell.

Quote:
So the original post was do the other braches of aikido also feel that something is missing like the aikikai. It presupposes that the aikikia feels that something is missing and I doubt the vast majority of the aikikai or of any other aikido branch feel that way. But this thread was a good place to discuss what the buzz about IT is.
Everyone posting here loves aikido. Some love what it has been to them, others love what it had been and want it to be again. So with all this passion, there is going to be some rough waters.
Well said! I'm not sure about the intent from David, but it seemed like a good title for drawing that passion. The seemingly absolute nature of it certainly drew my usual response. I love these threads when they're full of people who seem to be on to something and this one has been an interesting read for me so far (I'm a little behind on a lot of it). I'm greatful it's sparked the discussion it has.

Quote:
Matthew, "If it isn't accurate, shouldn't one with true understanding be able to describe how it falls short?" It has to be felt is what everyone with true understanding (demonstrate-able skils) continues to say thus far.
And yet we talk about "It," to some extent...beyond the idea that it exists in very specific locations/schools to go experience. I would agree completely that learning how to do aiki is a visceral thing, not an abstract thing, but it does seem that there are ways to describe behavioral aspects of that visceral thing aiki. Learning the science behind flight doesn't teach you how to fly stick and rudder, but it does contribute an understanding about basics like airspeed relationships and lift, which can shape how you approach flying.

Quote:
I just know that is not aiki-age.
I forget exactly what aiki-age means, but if you can see that it is not aiki-age just by looking at it, shouldn't you be able to describe the features you're looking at to be able to tell the difference? Is the posture not vertical enough? Shoulders too raised? Center oriented in some direction it shouldn't be? How can you tell? What are the hallmarks of aiki-age which are lacking there?

Quote:
With Ericks approach, I can try to make an analogy...
It may well be apples and oranges and not Fujis and Braeburns, for all I know.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 07-28-2009 at 11:49 PM.

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Old 07-28-2009, 11:47 PM   #352
dps
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

The first thread, "What did O'Sensei's students want from O'Sensei?", was started after reading a bio of Yamada Sensei and his reason for starting Aikido.
http://www.aikido-yamada.eu/yamada_sensei.html
I was thinking of my own reasons and it seemed that most people today taking Aikido was doing so in part because of the religious/spiritual/philosophical aspect of Aikido.
So I was wandering why the students of O'Sensei came to him.

" Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?" thread was started after reading on internet posts from people inside and outside of Aikido that somethings were missing or not taught correctly in todays Aikido.
The basics I was taught some 20 years ago when I first started Aikido included what is shown on this website,http://www.iay.org.uk/internal-strength/ and in this video http://video.google.com/videosearch?...en&emb=0&aq=f#. different words but the same thing.
Then I read that there were approaching 1.5 million people under the Aikikai umbrella practicing Aikido.

Hence the thought is the things these people are saying are missing or not taught (IT) missing in over 1.5 million ( this includes those outside of Aikikai) people's Aikido.

David

Last edited by dps : 07-28-2009 at 11:52 PM.
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Old 07-28-2009, 11:47 PM   #353
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
Matthew, "If it isn't accurate, shouldn't one with true understanding be able to describe how it falls short?" It has to be felt is what everyone with true understanding (demonstrate-able skils) continues to say thus far.
Unfortunately, my haptic interface is down the shop just now.

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
I think Erick describes the shear of that cool shoto-ikkyo just fine. I just know that is not aiki-age. The technique in that picture is remarkably more external.
I very specifically did not try to define it as aiki age, and chose that one particularly because the weapons use made it interesting and therefore it was not necessarily wedded to either paradigm. I suspect you would not define the no-inch punch as aiki age either, but I woudl suspect they are also related in your eyes.

Also, I tend to agree with Lee that while related -- there is a difference in "it" in so far as shear plays a part, and aiki proper -- which it seems all agree is a property of living beings. I have made several side points that distinguish certain neuro-muscular aspects of what I see Aiki -- aside from the purely mechanical components -- but which also relate to shear and elements driven by or responsive to it.

Since aiki-age is your term, it needs defining (in these or your own terms). But please, try to describe it or what is different between those two things you have felt, now that you have some inkling of the nature of my description.

I am fully aware, as in my consideration of Ki as angular momentum/moment, that the preferred modes of thought in two cultural systems are often seen as intractably different -- even when there are common or closer to common categories in both systems of thought, that are just not as favored. I am content that the category "shear" need not fully map in any unitary way with categories of traditional use for either "it" or "Aiki" to the extent there is a difference -- but very plainly to me anyway they are all related to or touched upon by uses of shear.

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
With Ericks approach, I can try to make an analogy. It seems like someone who has never seen a Mac is trying to describe a PC at the chip and operating system design level and asking me to explain the differences at that level.
Oh, God. A Mac v. PC commercial with the guys in dogi and hakama. I can see it now -- John Hodgman trying to tie his himo with the koshita dragging the ground... and Mac already in full bogu and at seigan

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
There is little hope of re-engineering IT from the position of doubtfully ever having felt/experienced it.
Let me be clear, I am an intuitive thinker -- I need experience from which to intuit patterns. All the book-larnin' is just patterns to sift, digest, combine, and seek out in that experience. Any pattern I lay out here you may be sure is based on workable experience, or I would not lay it out, as it would not make sense to me from pure book-larnin'. That does not answer your question, but there you are.

As for your doubt -- Credo ut intelligam...intellego ut credam. "I believe, so I may understand -- I think, so I may believe."

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 07-29-2009, 12:03 AM   #354
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Learning the science behind flight doesn't teach you how to fly stick and rudder, but it does contribute an understanding about basics like airspeed relationships and lift, which can shape how you approach flying.
Being a pilot, there are things that killed many a stick-and-rudder/seat-pants pilot until the aero guys went and said -- "Hey, ya know, I know it will really feel wrong, but try putting the stick hard back and the rudder hard opposite the turn needle, and forget what you are feeling, and maybe that inverted progressive spin is recoverable after all." Recovery control inputs are often quite different from aircraft to aircraft. Things like vortex ring state were only worked out after some bad helo crashes.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 07-29-2009, 01:39 AM   #355
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Re: What is IT?

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Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
I am not arguing that they are not related, just that knowing how to display power does not imply that ones knows "aiki". The opposite is also possible: that training "aiki" might not necessarily produce the same range of skills in striking over short distances as other disciplines with different methodologies of doing this.
Agreed. They are based on the same skill set, but if you do not build upon the basic skill set (be it towards aiki or short power), you won't have the additional skills.

Quote:
The point is, rather, that if you are going to hold it up as an ultimate example of an awesome level of power, that it really isn't that at all relative to what is actually trained within the idea of striking power.
But I didn't hold it up as an ultimate example of an awesome level of power! (Although I do think that short power is pretty cool.)
Erick said that the power (of 'it' or from aiki, I don't know) came from structural collapse caused by shear, which lead me to ask if he thought that the power of a no-inch punch was caused by structural collapse and shear as well. Even if the no-inch punch would be the wimpiest punch on earth with which you couldn't even hit a dent in a pack of butter after leaving it out in the sun on a hot summer day, my question would still be valid.
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Old 07-29-2009, 03:47 AM   #356
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

these are some excellent posts. i must return to that thread, "list of reason why people joined aikido". should be interesting to re-read those posts.
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Old 07-29-2009, 06:47 AM   #357
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I agree! As a closet iconoclast I get a little extra pleasure from what folks like Dan have stirred up. They've sparked a furious debate and as long as people are actively engaged to that debate and remain dedicated to unraveling the virtues of the issues brought forth, I think it's only a good thing; to the absolute betterment of Aikido...whatever that may be. I also think those are good guideposts you provided for moving with what I think I understand aiki to be. Can I peform that way very well? No. Do I do that at all? I think sometimes I do. Am I missing "It"? I'm certainly missing a very big part no matter how you look at it, but I'm pretty sure I'm not operating at 0. Time will tell.
Well, I actually have two very good questions for you to ask people.

1. Before you experienced hands-on aiki, what level did you think you were operating at?

2. After you experienced hands-on aiki, what level did you think you were operating at?

And I'd bet that every single Aikido person who met Dan would say their answer to #1 was in the positive somewhere between 1 and 10. And I'd also bet that every single Aikido person who met Dan would say their answer to #2 is 0.

But, that's why I posted the questions for you to ask. There are any number of Aikido people from first to sixth dan to ask. But, consider this, what are you going to think of *your* level of aiki in aikido if you ask, let's say 5 fourth dans, a couple fifth dans and a sixth dan and they all answer 0 to the second question?

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
And yet we talk about "It," to some extent...beyond the idea that it exists in very specific locations/schools to go experience. I would agree completely that learning how to do aiki is a visceral thing, not an abstract thing, but it does seem that there are ways to describe behavioral aspects of that visceral thing aiki. Learning the science behind flight doesn't teach you how to fly stick and rudder, but it does contribute an understanding about basics like airspeed relationships and lift, which can shape how you approach flying.
If you read through the posts here at Aikiweb, Rob John, Mike Sigman, and Dan Harden have all posted descriptions, exercises, tell-tale signs, etc. Yet, that hasn't helped anyone actually *do* aiki.

People think that the correlation between mechanical or physics aspects translate over into internal aspects, but they don't.

For example, the most advanced robotics design currently being used in Japan is not based upon human movement at all, but upon sensors and what-if scenarios. The physics behind even the most basic movements that humans do can't be detailed at our current understanding. You can talk about shear, friction, load, the air speed of an unladen swallow, but IMO, all that will do is set you back in learning aiki.

Anyone here with a Ph.D. in Physics want to post the equations for when a human goes from a walk cycle to a run cycle? Ain't gonna happen because no one out there can do that yet. Why do you think the major animation studios use motion capture instead of software based programming? The former is more realistic and the latter takes huge amounts of time to make realistic, bypassing physics altogether.
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Old 07-29-2009, 07:23 AM   #358
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
But, consider this, what are you going to think of *your* level of aiki in aikido if you ask, let's say 5 fourth dans, a couple fifth dans and a sixth dan and they all answer 0 to the second question?
That question makes me wonder about another question:
How do these same high dan grades feel when they teach an aikido class? Shouldn't they just take off their hakama's, change their black belts for white ones and go sit with the mukyu's? (After which the then highest grade seeks out the hands-on aiki experience and joins the mukyu's. Rinse and repeat, untill only mukyu's are left... )
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Old 07-29-2009, 07:51 AM   #359
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I forget exactly what aiki-age means, but if you can see that it is not aiki-age just by looking at it, shouldn't you be able to describe the features you're looking at to be able to tell the difference? Is the posture not vertical enough? Shoulders too raised? Center oriented in some direction it shouldn't be? How can you tell? What are the hallmarks of aiki-age which are lacking there?
I didn't say I could just by looking at it. I said that I had a unique perspective to that because I have FELT that specific technique done in that exact way by that exact person (and I should add that it was right around the time that person was doing that technique a lot).

I know what aiki-age feels like in me. It feels like I'm being lifted upward - but not like I was lead upward as shown in that awesome technique with the shotos. Aik-age feels like you touch the person, and you instantly feel sensation running upward in your body. Often, my ears feel that they are being pulled/pushed up - maybe I should say they feel like they are going upward because it doesn't feel like a pull or a push. I can't describe it very well. I don't think anyone can. Inside my neck something(s) feel like they are going upward, and yet it feels like everything is rising up, so it's like I end up feeling stretched upward from inside out. Maybe it is somewhat like a hose suddenly filling up with high pressure water. Oh great, you guys have me attempting to become an aiki-poet. [insert the "slapping the forehead" emoticon].

The thing is, that if my friend Lia in that picture had been doing aiki-age when she did that technique to me, it would look from the outside the same (but you might see my neck or wherever there was some slack in my body kind of jerk the moment I came into contact - but that just depends on how well the uke is holding themselves together doesn't it).

Erick, I think you have the shearing ideas just fine. I think you would need to understand how that works MUCH MUCH MUCH more internally - and thus far no one else can. Good luck to you with your approach but I wish you made a wholly different thread/blog where you explored this where the title represents the idea that you have not actually done or felt the IT we are discussing yet. But, that's not anything against you or your thinking. I enjoy reading your thought process. I just don't think it is too helpful to others until you start producing some/any of the things I attempted to describe.

Rob
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Old 07-29-2009, 07:55 AM   #360
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
That question makes me wonder about another question:
How do these same high dan grades feel when they teach an aikido class? Shouldn't they just take off their hakama's, change their black belts for white ones and go sit with the mukyu's? (After which the then highest grade seeks out the hands-on aiki experience and joins the mukyu's. Rinse and repeat, untill only mukyu's are left... )
Why? As we've stated, just because someone is learning aiki -- that doesn't invalidate their whole of Aikido. They still have the training, the experience, the history, the knowledge of a whole range of things in the aikido world.

On the flip side, though, it is a very noble individual that has a high rank in Aikido, go somewhere else to train, and wear a white belt. I'm told that Ikeda did just that at one of Aiki Expos. I know of another high ranking Aikido person who has done something similar. That's class.
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Old 07-29-2009, 08:17 AM   #361
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Re: What is IT?

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
Agreed. They are based on the same skill set, but if you do not build upon the basic skill set (be it towards aiki or short power), you won't have the additional skills.
However, the basic skill set there can differ. With respect to displaying short range power, explosiveness of movement is a separate quality from unity (gross coordination) of movement. They have to be trained as distinctly separate qualities. Explosiveness in this case is the ability to take yourself from 0 to 100 and back to 0 again as quickly as possible, and you just literally have to practice this over and over and over and over until you are good at it. In that sense, it is not that profound a practice, but without the practice, if you have developed any skill in explosiveness, it is by accident.

There is no wind-up or otherwise prepatory movement because of precisely this; you are able to competently engage the muscular system at a given point rather than having to move it into a more 'optimal' position first. Just practicing coordinated movement based on whatever structural mechanics you want won't necessarily yield the same result, though. You can even get explosiveness of movement without the overall good coordination, by just reinforcing whatever existing coordination is already there. So you might indeed end up with a very explosive strike that is none the less not powerful enough to dent a pack of butter too, or you might end up with a very forceful strike but which none the less is neither quick enough to dent the butter but merely move it out of the way like an advancing glacier.

There is also the other sense of this that you are momentarily structurally sturdy, and something has impacted you instead. That something might bounce off, but it could be for different reasons. You could have just been always structurally on in the first place, in which case no explosiveness was necessary. Or you could have merely solidified only at the moment of impact, which hinges on developed explosiveness.

Last edited by Lee Salzman : 07-29-2009 at 08:21 AM.
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Old 07-29-2009, 08:19 AM   #362
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Hi Rob,
Very interesting. Your descriptions were cool. Can I ask about it?
Quote:
Maybe it is somewhat like a hose suddenly filling up with high pressure water.
Do you think that big part of the aiki is literally a pressure manipulation in the body's hydraulic system (i.e. liquid pressure in muscles & tissues)? (I assume that ground path is the major conduit of force, driven by hara). How can nage protect (hide?) his own hara even while simultaneously driving the motion from there?

Quote:
.. if my friend Lia in that picture had been doing aiki-age when she did that technique to me, it would look from the outside the same (but you might see my neck or wherever there was some slack in my body kind of jerk the moment I came into contact - but that just depends on how well the uke is holding themselves together doesn't it)
I always wondered, can aiki techniques (e.g. aiki-age) be done *extremely slowly* or is there an element of speed/timing that *must* be present? Assuming they can be executed slowly, are they then easier to counter, or do you find it is still 'immutable' or 'inexorable'? Do you still get the 'my ears are going up' feeling? Can you actually feel the pressure rising in the body? Or is that manifested differently? Do you find there is an ability (or way) to 'push back' against that rising feeling? Man! Sounds like ihtbf.

All of the above questions/views assume a lot, of course, and may be wrong..and hence unanswerable..

Cheers,
Josh

Last edited by thisisnotreal : 07-29-2009 at 08:26 AM.
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Old 07-29-2009, 08:19 AM   #363
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Why? As we've stated, just because someone is learning aiki -- that doesn't invalidate their whole of Aikido. They still have the training, the experience, the history, the knowledge of a whole range of things in the aikido world.
Yet in this post you state:
Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
If you're studying one of those systems, you need that history. You need the techniques and how they were done because that's part of the founder's ideals. The aiki puts the foundation there so that the understanding of the intricacies of the techniques makes a lot more sense.
<snip>
Ueshiba's aikido wasn't just aiki. People overlook this part of the message we've been stating because aiki is the foundation. Ueshiba built his house upon aiki. So did Sagawa, Kodo, Tomiki, Shioda, etc. They all look different for a reason.
So you don't see a problem with people teaching aikido, but lacking the actual foundation of aikido, i.e. aiki?
How many of these high dan grades tell their students: I can teach you about the house, but I recently found out I had the foundation all wrong. So while I lay my own foundation and move my entire house, I can teach you a lot about the house, very little about the foundation and even less about how the new foundation and the old house work together?
If they do so, they would be honest and I wouldn't mind. If they don't, they claim to teach something they are not. Unless one wants to argue that the actual internal skills of aikido are so unknown to the public, no new student is expecting to learn these skills.
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Old 07-29-2009, 08:45 AM   #364
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Re: What is IT?

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
However, the basic skill set there can differ.
No, it cannot. I define the basic skill set as:
Quote:
myself wrote:
To make the most use as possible of the ground (to push from) or your own weight (to weigh something down). [...] Then you can start rewiring your body (coordination and conditioning), which is another reason you can't figure this out for yourself.
Both aiki and the no-inch punch require specific recoordination and conditioning based on that basic skill of ground an weight usage.

Last edited by jss : 07-29-2009 at 08:46 AM. Reason: html issues
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Old 07-29-2009, 08:56 AM   #365
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

"How many of these high dan grades tell their students: I can teach you about the house, but I recently found out I had the foundation all wrong." - at least 1 of them
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Old 07-29-2009, 09:16 AM   #366
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

I like Rob, have trained with Lia Sensei, and can say that

A) She don't have a lot of muscle to start with...she's kind of tiny...

B) Proportionately (taking into account her smaller size) the uke she tends to work with are much larger and stronger, so muscle just ain't gonna cut it...

C) it does not feel like strength when I take ukemi for her.

That said, I tend to agree with Rob, this is not the oldsmobile I experienced from Dan, Akuzawa and Mike...

A) Their power was noticably greater (even taking into account their greater size),

B) could be applied statically or in motion, and

C) "Leading" really didn't have a whole lot to do with what they did. At least not the "Leading" I am familiar with in aikido.

Though I must say I do believe that the best of the "Leading" I have found in aikido would most likely be greatly enhanced by adding the level of power Dan, Mike, and Akuzawa display.

In My Opinion and Experience, of course.

Best,
Ron
Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Hi Eric:
I don't see that in this. It looks like she is using a lot of muscle.
Mary

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Old 07-29-2009, 09:20 AM   #367
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
Yet in this post you state:

So you don't see a problem with people teaching aikido, but lacking the actual foundation of aikido, i.e. aiki?
Actually, I have a great admiration for those people still teaching aikido *and* learning aiki. They are finding ways to do something I could not. The same for those who are looking to learn aiki and still teach aikido. I sincerely hope that they find a similar path to take. How can anyone fault them for that? It certainly isn't the easiest thing to do.

You're going to find that students with a year's worth of learning internal structure are stopping most wrist locks. How do you handle that? And that's just the tip of things.

No, I don't see a problem with these people doing what they are doing. In fact, I think others should see them with respect and admiration for the task they've shouldered. They're the ones with the vision and the eye towards the future of aikido, making it, again, on par - martially - with Ueshiba, Tomiki, Shioda, Shirata, Mochizuki, Tohei, etc.
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Old 07-29-2009, 09:35 AM   #368
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Re: What is IT?

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
No, it cannot. I define the basic skill set as:

"To make the most use as possible of the ground (to push from) or your own weight (to weigh something down)."
In one sense, I can agree to this. It is a basic skill set. I'd disagree that it is aiki, though.

I think that if you learn to relax and not use specific muscle groups, you can learn a basic way of "grounding". I think that quite a few people in various martial arts can do this. It's a one way flow, either to the ground or from the ground.

I think when people talk about how good BJJ people are doing "internal" stuff, I think they're mistaking basic "ground" skills with aiki.

If all you are doing is letting energy go to ground, then you've only got 1/3, er, 1/4, okay a portion of the whole. And it's easy enough to start people working on that. Unbendable arm? Think of a water hose with water going outwards. That's a one way conduit. Does it work? Sure. Is it aiki? Not in my opinion.

Is it a basic skill set. Okay, sure. I can agree on that.

But, let's expand it just a bit. For example, use the unbendable arm thingy above. Now, let's have a two way conduit through the body/arm where there is water going outwards and at the same time, through that same pipe, there is water coming back inwards. That's a basic skill set, to me. Still not aiki, though.

My thoughts on the subject, anyway.
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Old 07-29-2009, 10:17 AM   #369
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

making a list of things that are on the way to aiki, but *not* aiki, is a useful start...i think.
for instance, all, umm.. impediments must be removed. "Got to get out of your own way.."
much to that thought alone, isn't there?

One problem with aiki is that it is a combination of many factors that must be present, and then couple that (unlikely scenario) with the fact that you really need the proprietary knowledge/skill...

also; I just want to say that this is just budo. It isn't anything else than that. It is important. But it is also not important, at the same time. Some could view all of this, at some all-consuming point, as selfish and self-indulgent..
just a thought.
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Old 07-29-2009, 10:37 AM   #370
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
No, I don't see a problem with these people doing what they are doing. In fact, I think others should see them with respect and admiration for the task they've shouldered.
As long as they are not misleading their students as to what they are getting into, I totally agree. Especially considering that the alternative would be that all the aiki-seeking aikido teachers would quit for a few years and then return to aikido. That scenario would be a lot worse.
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Old 07-29-2009, 10:40 AM   #371
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Re: What is IT?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
In one sense, I can agree to this. It is a basic skill set. I'd disagree that it is aiki, though.
I never said it was aiki, so that's ok.

Quote:
But, let's expand it just a bit. For example, use the unbendable arm thingy above. Now, let's have a two way conduit through the body/arm where there is water going outwards and at the same time, through that same pipe, there is water coming back inwards. That's a basic skill set, to me. Still not aiki, though.
Sounds interesting. If you do the unbendable arm with me in this way, would I be able to feel the difference? And if so, what would be different?
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Old 07-29-2009, 11:11 AM   #372
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Well, I actually have two very good questions for you to ask people.

1. Before you experienced hands-on aiki, what level did you think you were operating at?

2. After you experienced hands-on aiki, what level did you think you were operating at?
answers:
#1. 2
#2. -2 (can i use imaginary number?)

before i met these internal folks, i was doing the Do just fine. after meetings, now i have to actually learn to do the aiki part, which is just work work and more work. i really don't like these internal folks, because they just mess with your universe.
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Old 07-29-2009, 11:15 AM   #373
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Re: What is IT?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
But, let's expand it just a bit. For example, use the unbendable arm thingy above. Now, let's have a two way conduit through the body/arm where there is water going outwards and at the same time, through that same pipe, there is water coming back inwards. That's a basic skill set, to me. Still not aiki, though.

.
what about the water going up the other person's feet?
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Old 07-29-2009, 11:20 AM   #374
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Well, I actually have two very good questions for you to ask people.

1. Before you experienced hands-on aiki, what level did you think you were operating at?

2. After you experienced hands-on aiki, what level did you think you were operating at?

And I'd bet that every single Aikido person who met Dan would say their answer to #1 was in the positive somewhere between 1 and 10. And I'd also bet that every single Aikido person who met Dan would say their answer to #2 is 0.
You may be right for all I know. I get the impression that Dan is very very good and that can make very slight ability seem like nothing at all...and again, for all I know, it would be literally 0, but that is absolutely nothing, not .00000000001, which may simply seems like nothing by comparison (but might seem like something next to .00000000000000001).

Quote:
If you read through the posts here at Aikiweb, Rob John, Mike Sigman, and Dan Harden have all posted descriptions, exercises, tell-tale signs, etc. Yet, that hasn't helped anyone actually *do* aiki.
I agree. Ideas will never ingrain physical ability, they can only guide our approach to it.

Quote:
People think that the correlation between mechanical or physics aspects translate over into internal aspects, but they don't.
I'm just saying any physical phenomena can be described and that "mechanical" terms (I hope that's an appropriate word now that I've used it) are one approach at this.

Quote:
For example, the most advanced robotics design currently being used in Japan is not based upon human movement at all, but upon sensors and what-if scenarios. The physics behind even the most basic movements that humans do can't be detailed at our current understanding.
There are a lot of variables if someone wanted to try to form a complete formula, but that doesn't mean we can't describe aspects accurately. Draw out a complete formula for how a car works and that will take some time too. It will include a lot of information that is useless to someone wanting to build a car, but some of it might prove useful...such as figuring how volume applies to compression in the engine...assuming that person also understood the language.

Quote:
You can talk about shear, friction, load, the air speed of an unladen swallow, but IMO, all that will do is set you back in learning aiki.
Well that all depends...is it an African swallow or an English one? Answer wisely! Seriously though, you may be right, but I suspect it depends on the individual. I'm not saying some possible mathematic formula will cause anyone any direct ability in performing aiki. I'm just saying that I can see how trying to articulate what might be happening in the body could be useful for some people in their approach. In terms of time spent I would be inclined to think any time not spent actually practicing aiki can be described as holding a person back.

Quote:
Anyone here with a Ph.D. in Physics want to post the equations for when a human goes from a walk cycle to a run cycle? Ain't gonna happen because no one out there can do that yet. Why do you think the major animation studios use motion capture instead of software based programming? The former is more realistic and the latter takes huge amounts of time to make realistic, bypassing physics altogether.
Well and a lot of the motion capture wasn't very realistic. I've played many games and the best Virtua Fighter still doesn't look like human movement, strictly speaking. The point is, if we can describe aspects of aiki (not the whole) using relatively vague concepts like ki and floating, we should be able to describe it using other imperfect terms too.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 07-29-2009 at 11:22 AM.

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Old 07-29-2009, 11:34 AM   #375
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
As long as they are not misleading their students as to what they are getting into, I totally agree. Especially considering that the alternative would be that all the aiki-seeking aikido teachers would quit for a few years and then return to aikido. That scenario would be a lot worse.
If you didn't think aikido teachers were'nt already changing day by day working to improve their aikido while they were teaching you I wonder just what you thought was happening??? If they now appreciate an new aspect of their art, so much the better.

Is it really that unheard of to attain new understanding and suddenly everything needs to be looked at in a whole new light. Like, you know, a certain Mr. U who after being bathed in golden light said everything had changed.

I guess I just never had the idea of a teacher or a sensei as a completed product to be consumed. I always expected new insight and evolution in those I trained with; even about the most basic things.

Last edited by Walker : 07-29-2009 at 11:36 AM. Reason: added a thought

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