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Old 07-28-2009, 04:44 PM   #1
mathewjgano
 
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Aikido waza impairment?

Quote:
Dan wrote:
Aikido waza will actually prevent or inhibit some body qualities, while DR doing waza will actually burn them in (albeit slowly) by default.
I was curious if this can be described further in any detail. I thought all techniques were rather coincidental where internal skills are concerned. You seem to be saying all formal movements from the mother art (DR) always develop aiki while some formal movements of Aikido will always impair it. How so? I'd really appreciate knowing which techniques are incompatible with "aiki." You've often described how you just want to help folks avoid pitfalls like these, this seems like it would be a good opportunity.
If I missed it in another post, would you be willing to point me to it? I'd appreciate it.
Take care,
Matt

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Old 07-28-2009, 07:27 PM   #2
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: Aikido waza impairment?

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I was curious if this can be described further in any detail. I thought all techniques were rather coincidental where internal skills are concerned. You seem to be saying all formal movements from the mother art (DR) always develop aiki while some formal movements of Aikido will always impair it. How so? I'd really appreciate knowing which techniques are incompatible with "aiki." You've often described how you just want to help folks avoid pitfalls like these, this seems like it would be a good opportunity.
If I missed it in another post, would you be willing to point me to it? I'd appreciate it.
Take care,
Matt
I think it goes without saying that Dan's statement is based solely on a complete misunderstanding, and one that is only partially Dan's. Its kind of like saying This brick building will be a better building if it is not built with wood.

First - If Dan is describing an IT, based upon principles within DRAJ, then it would seem completely unremarkable that anything but that IT, including Aikido... would produce results that may be counter to it. The DRAJ waza (outer form based upon the true understanding of the IT of DRAJ) would be more than likely to reveal IT and possibly even strengthen it. Even the logic behind Mike's claim that all IT is the same has the same fallacy in that however one defines IT, it is always through their own filter. When looking at anything that doesn't pass through that same filter, it would again be unremarkable to find that it didn't muster up to what the observer would feel as passable.

Second - It is really quite ironic that the thread Dan's quote, "Aikido waza will actually prevent or inhibit some body qualities" comes from is the Non-Aikido traditions thread. I mean would anyone really expect that the powerful kicks of Aikido didn't measure up to Muy Thai kicks? Quite a silly comparison, really.

This is only compounded by the irony found in the "Is IT missing from your Aikido" thread - I mean it really is ironic that we are asking people if the IT from DRAJ is missing from an art form that Mr. Pranin (and his very vocal believers who post here on AikiWeb) insist it should be found in. This leaves us with two ironies, actually. The first being, "If the IT from DRAJ is missing from 99% of Aikido today, then how can anyone insist that DRAJ is a foundational pillar of Aikido? Yes, I know... They are now insisting, "...it was lost from Aikido." This is certainly a very convenient DRAJ revisionists dream... Doesn't Occam's Razor dictate that the simplest explanation is most likely the real explanation? That very reasoning is used by Mr. Pranin all the time. He insists that O-Sensei never substantially studied any other Martial art outside of DRAJ so Aikido must solely be based upon DRAJ.

Isn't it more likely that the IT of DRAJ is missing because it was either intentionally removed, and (as I have been saying all along) replaced with something else, than that IT has been kept secret, or intentionally hidden in plain site, or intentionally downplayed to remove any connection to DRAJ for political or monetary reasons.

The second irony is even more so
Let's just say for a moment that the IT of DRAJ was the missing element at the center of Aikido. Then, at some point in time it was somehow returned to its "most honorable place" and "acknowledged by and consequently trained in" by all. Should that ever happen, I don't think that Dan would actually say that the waza of an art form could actually get in the way of developing internal power, or IT, or whatever. I think that he might have to agree that movement always occurs around the internal component. The internal component could never really be blocked by properly executed technique, itself. We may be talking semantics here, so I am not calling Dan out on his statement in that sense. I mean, poor movement is just that. Even if you have the utmost internal power developed, if your movement does not stem from it, it will be poor movement at best.

Best in training to you and all...

.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 07-28-2009, 08:50 PM   #3
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Re: Aikido waza impairment?

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote: View Post
Even if you have the utmost internal power developed, if your movement does not stem from it, it will be poor movement at best.
As I understand IT, if one has IT, ALL of one's movement will most certainly reflect IT.
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Old 07-29-2009, 02:18 AM   #4
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Re: Aikido waza impairment?

So, Shaun. Where does Aikido come from, in your opinion?
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Old 07-29-2009, 03:38 AM   #5
Michael Douglas
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Re: Aikido waza impairment?

I take issue with this ;
Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote: View Post
...- It is really quite ironic that the thread Dan's quote, "Aikido waza will actually prevent or inhibit some body qualities" comes from is the Non-Aikido traditions thread. ..
That's not ironic, it is simply because Jun banned discussions of 'IT' from the aikido subforums a long time ago.
Without that incredible restriction lots of 'IT' threads would be in the General, or Techniques, or Spiritual sub-forums since many aikidoka believe such discussions are extremely pertinent to aikido itself and would have started such threads there, given the opportunity.
--mildly niggled smileyface--
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Old 07-29-2009, 06:18 AM   #6
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Re: Aikido waza impairment?

As someone I know would say ... Huh.

Ueshiba in his old age is on video sitting on the floor having people push his head, trying to push him over. Kodo is seen on video sitting on the floor having people push his head, trying to push him over.

Tanahashi reminisces about people pushing on Ueshiba. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpWY58LWaRE) It would seem that Ueshiba had people push on him throughout his life, both pre and post war.

Ueshiba is seen on video in a very striking pose with one arm up, one arm down, just as can be found in pictures of Takeda and Hisa.

Ueshiba is on video doing Daito ryu waza with multiple people -- into his 60s. Using atemi into his 60s.

I'm sure people like to downplay the Daito ryu connection. I see it often. But, the real disconnect here isn't the Daito ryu connection. It's in the people posting.

Aiki as taught to Ueshiba by Takeda is only half of Ueshiba's Aikido. It's the half that gave Ueshiba the body skills, the martial effectiveness. Aiki is the half that he never stopped learning or expanding.

The disconnect is that people think aiki is being touted as the be-all-end-all to aikido. But, if you read the posts, not one of us learning aiki has ever said that. We've said it's missing, but not that it's all of Ueshiba's Aikido. The other half of Ueshiba's influence in creating his aikido is spiritual.

Now, is that other half the same thing that Shaun is training? I'd certainly like to think so. That would mean it isn't lost altogether and someone, somewhere is keeping that alive. But, to be like Ueshiba, you not only have to have that spiritual training, but also the aiki. Otherwise, you're only doing half of the whole.

The simplest explanation? Ueshiba's main influence in martial abilities was Takeda. And Deguchi had a major influence in Ueshiba's spiritual outlook. Ueshiba combined the two in his own, personal, unique way. Is that really so hard to believe?
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Old 07-29-2009, 09:14 AM   #7
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Re: Aikido waza impairment?

Hi Mark,

I understand your post, and it's thought provoking. May I ask -- what do you percieve is the "half" of Aikido that is different from the IT of DRAJ? What is the spiritual element, in your own view, and how does it affect the expression of Aiki, as you understand the term, in Aikido?

thanks.

cdh
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Old 07-29-2009, 09:40 AM   #8
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Re: Aikido waza impairment?

Quote:
David Henderson wrote: View Post
Hi Mark,

I understand your post, and it's thought provoking. May I ask -- what do you percieve is the "half" of Aikido that is different from the IT of DRAJ? What is the spiritual element, in your own view, and how does it affect the expression of Aiki, as you understand the term, in Aikido?

thanks.

cdh
Before, as someone else has said, "I didn't know that I didn't know". Now I know that ... I don't know. Really. I have views, I have opinions, I have logical correlations, but really I'm of the mind that I don't know the spiritual half of Ueshiba's aikido.

As I said, I would hope that Shaun's training does cover that part. There were a few students of Ueshiba who were also involved with Oomoto kyo. There is Peter's research. Stan Pranin's work. There is Rev. Barrish. There is Saotome. Etc. There are avenues to go if someone wanted to find a way to train in that half.

Personally, I think that I'm not yet ready to do that. If I ever decide to do that. I also think that there are effects from aiki upon a person's mental and spiritual being that should be considered when viewing the spiritual aspect. Not in the manner of kotodama, but more in the outlook of someone who has the confidence in themselves.

And I think that when you add aiki as the foundation to the spirituality that Ueshiba seemed to follow ... I think that aiki is a buzz all on its own, let alone adding that buzz to the spiritual high.
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Old 07-29-2009, 09:47 AM   #9
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Re: Aikido waza impairment?

Nice Mark.

Quote:
I think that aiki is a buzz all on its own, let alone adding that buzz to the spiritual high.
QFT
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Old 07-29-2009, 11:44 AM   #10
Rabih Shanshiry
 
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Re: Aikido waza impairment?

Please correct me if I am wrong but the OT was Matt asking Dan Harden for clarification about a statement he made recently in another thread.

I would like to hear Dan's thoughts on this. The side commentary really belongs in another thread.

Could we please stay on topic?

...rab
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Old 07-29-2009, 12:00 PM   #11
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Aikido waza impairment?

Quote:
Michael Douglas wrote: View Post
I take issue with this ;

That's not ironic, it is simply because Jun banned discussions of 'IT' from the aikido subforums a long time ago.
Without that incredible restriction lots of 'IT' threads would be in the General, or Techniques, or Spiritual sub-forums since many aikidoka believe such discussions are extremely pertinent to aikido itself and would have started such threads there, given the opportunity.
--mildly niggled smileyface--
Like this one that's been going on in the general Aikido forum for a little while now?
http://aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16496

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 07-29-2009, 12:20 PM   #12
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Aikido waza impairment?

I personally have no problem with people forming side discussions in this thread. If something useful can come of it I say let it roll baby roll.
Shaun, I'm not sure about Dan's meaning. At the moment I'm taking the statement at face value, but it doesn't make sense to me based on other messages I've attributed to him.
Mark, from what I can gather Aikido's primary influence physically comes from Daito Ryu. I assume the physical "aiki" is essentially the same, but Shaun seems to think otherwise and he's got more experience than I do. I've not heard many people down-play the DR connection itself. It's usually been part of the answer given to me about where Aikido came from.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 07-29-2009, 04:32 PM   #13
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Re: Aikido waza impairment?

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
So, Shaun. Where does Aikido come from, in your opinion?
Alejandro,

This is a very excellent question, one that is often asked, but usually coming from the wrong place, unfortunately. Somehow when you asked it, I feel inclined to reply. It is a somewhat short one, but I believe it to be concise and addresses your intention. In any case, I am hoping that when you asked it, you meant what are the components that make up O-Sensei's Aikido. That is what I will be addressing here, but if that wasn't really the thrust of your question, please let me know.

I have posted this before (to some extent) so, really this is nothing new.

Aikido is made up of several interrelated physical and non-physical components. At the center of these components is a way of relating to all things, and this relationship is called Aiki. Aiki-Do is a path upon which we seek a moment by moment realization of Aiki. The language of this path in terms of how it is translated and transmitted is the Aikido-waza, and the ultimate realization of this path is Takemusu Aiki. I would like to clarify that when I speak of non-physical components I am most definitely not referring to the spiritual component, which while important is more of a byproduct of proper training. The non-physical components about which I am speaking are actually trained in and enhanced by specific ascetic practices. Dan, Mike and Akuzawa Sensei's solo training are examples of additional exercises that could be used to develop these non-physical components if they were accompanied by the proper oral teachings that have been designated by the founder to be passed down along side of the practices, themselves. Simply training in these solo exercises and the waza will not lead one to O-Sensei's Aikido because a student's mastery of the solo exercises and/or the waza was never O-Sensei's intention or requirement.

Of course, now that I have re-read this, I think "Where did it come from" is probably a better question and would make for a better answer. However, I am not prepared to offer that one up at this time. Damn good question, either way, if you ask me...

Best in training to you and all...

.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 07-29-2009, 04:33 PM   #14
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Re: Aikido waza impairment?

Quote:
Michael Douglas wrote: View Post
I take issue with this ;

That's not ironic, it is simply because Jun banned discussions of 'IT' from the aikido subforums a long time ago.
Without that incredible restriction lots of 'IT' threads would be in the General, or Techniques, or Spiritual sub-forums since many aikidoka believe such discussions are extremely pertinent to aikido itself and would have started such threads there, given the opportunity.
--mildly niggled smileyface--
Michael,

I must have missed that. However, given the "What is missing" thread that is in the general section now, I am not sure that ban still applies.

.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 07-29-2009, 05:15 PM   #15
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Re: Aikido waza impairment?

Hi Mark,

I must say your posts today have made me realized that I have reached a turning point in my understanding of your motivations in as a proponent of DRAJ and your comments about how DRAJ relates to Aikido and what Aikido is (or may be) in the first place. I think it is a good thing for me to be able to read your comments for what they are and put less into the meaning of what might or might not be behind them. As exemplified by your first few comments, and mine that follow them, there are still some issues to work out. However, I am sure that it would be the same for you with regards to my comments. In any case...

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Ueshiba in his old age is on video sitting on the floor having people push his head, trying to push him over. Kodo is seen on video sitting on the floor having people push his head, trying to push him over.

Tanahashi reminisces about people pushing on Ueshiba. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpWY58LWaRE) It would seem that Ueshiba had people push on him throughout his life, both pre and post war.

Ueshiba is seen on video in a very striking pose with one arm up, one arm down, just as can be found in pictures of Takeda and Hisa.

Ueshiba is on video doing Daito ryu waza with multiple people -- into his 60s. Using atemi into his 60s.
While I think that all of your examples could be used to support your argument, there really just isn't any clear information as to
why O-Sensei was doing any of those things. Since a standard has to be agreed upon to be used, and you and Dan and Mike and others have agreed that when there is not enough concrete evidence, and even in spite of tremendous anecdotal testimony to the contrary that something might be true, it must be put aside and noted that it is not relevant. As an example, it is often quoted by DRAJ people, and others... that the technical basis for Aikido must be DRAJ. Often times it is "said" O-Sensei was a master of many art forms. However any substantial martial training O-Sensei may have had in other arts, and any substantial training he may have had when he was in China, ...etc. has been taken off the table as there is no clear evidence that would prove it to any historical degree. If that is the standard, then the examples you have cited are simply not sufficient proof that DRAJ and Aikido are related. Pretty much the only thing that would suffice beyond a reasonable doubt is O-Sensei saying on film, or found in his writings that the technical basis for Aikido is DRAJ, and that beyond that, that it is such a technical basis that is the focus of the art form.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
I'm sure people like to downplay the Daito ryu connection. I see it often. But, the real disconnect here isn't the Daito ryu connection. It's in the people posting.
Now, I was going to say something here, but further down in your post you noted:
Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
The disconnect is that people think aiki is being touted as the be-all-end-all to aikido. But, if you read the posts, not one of us learning aiki has ever said that. We've said it's missing, but not that it's all of Ueshiba's Aikido. The other half of Ueshiba's influence in creating his aikido is spiritual.
As I said, this was the turning point for me. Now, I know you have said this before, so I am not pointing to this as any new admission or revelation on your part. I am just noting my ability to hear it for what it is.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Aiki as taught to Ueshiba by Takeda is only half of Ueshiba's Aikido. It's the half that gave Ueshiba the body skills, the martial effectiveness. Aiki is the half that he never stopped learning or expanding.
Well... this is somewhat true, and somewhat misleading. It is kind of like saying if you take a coin and start out on heads and slice off one thin layer at a time, at what point do you reach tails... Here is an analogy. One martial artist trains his whole life and is the fastest, strongest, most unbeatable martial artist on the planet... Why does he let his spouse tell him when he can spend time with his friends, how he can dress and when he can go out?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Now, is that other half the same thing that Shaun is training? I'd certainly like to think so. That would mean it isn't lost altogether and someone, somewhere is keeping that alive. But, to be like Ueshiba, you not only have to have that spiritual training, but also the aiki. Otherwise, you're only doing half of the whole.
Mark, this is a great point. However, like the one you made, above, it can be true, or not, but that depends on the person... As for if I am trying to also keep something that is "hidden in plain site" alive, the answer would be sure. But like I said, its not really hidden, its just that no one is really interested. I could come to AikiWeb and scream, "YOU ARE ALL MISSING IT - DON'T YOU KNOW YOU HAVE TO WEAR FUNDOSHI AT ALL TIMES IN ORDER TO MANIFEST TAKEMUSU-AIKI!!!!" but like the fanatics in the NYC subways, no is really listening. By the way, I did not take up this charge because I really understood what I was doing at the time. I just wanted to be a bad-ass martial artist, so I joined Steven Seagal's Aikido dojo and then asked for permission to train with one of his teacher's in Japan so I could get closer to that goal. However, I was shocked to see what it was I needed to do in order to achieve my goal. Let's just say that it isn't being talked about here on AikiWeb... Truth is, I think that most anyone who wasn't Japanese would be very pissed off if they really knew why it is that non-Japanese were finally allowed into the inner circles of the art... I am okay with it, in that as much as I am being used, I am achieving what I want out of the bargain.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
The simplest explanation? Ueshiba's main influence in martial abilities was Takeda. And Deguchi had a major influence in Ueshiba's spiritual outlook. Ueshiba combined the two in his own, personal, unique way. Is that really so hard to believe?
Hard to believe? ...YEAH! but like I said, above. No one is really listening ... YET!

Best in training to you and all...

.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 07-29-2009, 05:31 PM   #16
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Re: Aikido waza impairment?

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I personally have no problem with people forming side discussions in this thread. If something useful can come of it I say let it roll baby roll.
Probably best if we stay focused on the OP's question rather than go off on tangents that may or may not relate. However, that is really something that is Jun's call, as this is his website.

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Shaun, I'm not sure about Dan's meaning. At the moment I'm taking the statement at face value, but it doesn't make sense to me based on other messages I've attributed to him.
Got it. Hopefully he will chime in and clarify things enough that Aikido people who do not have experience training with him aren't put off by the statement. I mean, from a marketing standpoint, it really doesn't pay to alienate your desired audience, but we all have our methods. Don't we? I am not saying that is Dan's intention, but he would have to clearly state that those are not his intentions. Just because he is now openly training with Aikido people doesn't mean he doesn't hold Aikido, or Aikidoka in general in contempt. Again, I am not saying that he does, but one could certainly take that from many of his posts. Of course, what many take from my posts is wildly off from my intention, so...

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Mark, from what I can gather Aikido's primary influence physically comes from Daito Ryu. I assume the physical "aiki" is essentially the same, but Shaun seems to think otherwise and he's got more experience than I do. I've not heard many people down-play the DR connection itself. It's usually been part of the answer given to me about where Aikido came from.
Well, from my own experience I can say that the only thing you can be sure you have when you have 30 years of experience in the martial arts and a dollar is a dollar. Now, in terms of what I believe is Aikido's primary influence... well the outward component of Aikido's waza is very much based upon the outward movements of DRAJ. I mean, come on, man, I am not blind! However, what is at the center of that well... I have another post that will address the importance i place on what may be at the center, and how what's at the center relates to what is on the outside.

Best in training to you and all...

.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 07-29-2009, 06:31 PM   #17
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Re: Aikido waza impairment?

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote: View Post
Michael,

I must have missed that. However, given the "What is missing" thread that is in the general section now, I am not sure that ban still applies.

.
A while back, I posted in the techniques thread a bit more how to do kotegaeshi and it got moved to the non-aikido martial traditions thread. And so, I decided to take a little break from aikiweb until aiki discussion was allowed outside of the non-aikido threads. These things take time. It's happening. There is really no stopping it.

Rob
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Old 07-29-2009, 06:44 PM   #18
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Re: Aikido waza impairment?

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote: View Post
However, that is really something that is Jun's call, as this is his website.
Exactly.

Quote:
Well, from my own experience I can say that the only thing you can be sure you have when you have 30 years of experience in the martial arts and a dollar is a dollar. Now, in terms of what I believe is Aikido's primary influence... well the outward component of Aikido's waza is very much based upon the outward movements of DRAJ. I mean, come on, man, I am not blind! However, what is at the center of that well... I have another post that will address the importance i place on what may be at the center, and how what's at the center relates to what is on the outside.

Best in training to you and all...

.
Cool! Thanks Shaun!
Take care.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 07-30-2009, 02:05 AM   #19
Michael Douglas
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Re: Aikido waza impairment?

Thanks fellas ;

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Like this one that's been going on in the general Aikido forum for a little while now?
http://aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16496
Thanks Mathew, I just realised where that thread is ... and still is. In 'General'. Thanks for pointing that out. I mostly link to threads from the 'active topics' button and don't always notice.

And Shaun, also correct.
Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote: View Post
...However, given the "What is missing" thread that is in the general section now, I am not sure that ban still applies.
Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
A while back, I posted in the techniques thread a bit more how to do kotegaeshi and it got moved to the non-aikido martial traditions thread. And so, I decided to take a little break from aikiweb until aiki discussion was allowed outside of the non-aikido threads. These things take time. It's happening. There is really no stopping it.
And Rob. (There was stopping it though...)

I was wrong, there is now one thread in 'General' about 'IT' and stuff.
Here's me for one hoping it stays there ad infinitum and from now on maybe Jun will allow more stuff to remain out of the 'Non-aikido' subforum.
Progress!
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Old 07-30-2009, 02:10 AM   #20
Flintstone
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Re: Aikido waza impairment?

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote: View Post
Alejandro,

This is a very excellent question, one that is often asked, but usually coming from the wrong place, unfortunately. Somehow when you asked it, I feel inclined to reply. It is a somewhat short one, but I believe it to be concise and addresses your intention. In any case, I am hoping that when you asked it, you meant what are the components that make up O-Sensei's Aikido. That is what I will be addressing here, but if that wasn't really the thrust of your question, please let me know.

I have posted this before (to some extent) so, really this is nothing new.

Aikido is made up of several interrelated physical and non-physical components. At the center of these components is a way of relating to all things, and this relationship is called Aiki. Aiki-Do is a path upon which we seek a moment by moment realization of Aiki. The language of this path in terms of how it is translated and transmitted is the Aikido-waza, and the ultimate realization of this path is Takemusu Aiki. I would like to clarify that when I speak of non-physical components I am most definitely not referring to the spiritual component, which while important is more of a byproduct of proper training. The non-physical components about which I am speaking are actually trained in and enhanced by specific ascetic practices. Dan, Mike and Akuzawa Sensei's solo training are examples of additional exercises that could be used to develop these non-physical components if they were accompanied by the proper oral teachings that have been designated by the founder to be passed down along side of the practices, themselves. Simply training in these solo exercises and the waza will not lead one to O-Sensei's Aikido because a student's mastery of the solo exercises and/or the waza was never O-Sensei's intention or requirement.

Of course, now that I have re-read this, I think "Where did it come from" is probably a better question and would make for a better answer. However, I am not prepared to offer that one up at this time. Damn good question, either way, if you ask me...

Best in training to you and all...

.
Thank you, Shaun.

Best,
Alex.
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Old 07-30-2009, 05:50 AM   #21
Rabih Shanshiry
 
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Re: Aikido waza impairment?

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote: View Post
While I think that all of your examples could be used to support your argument, there really just isn't any clear information as to why O-Sensei was doing any of those things. Since a standard has to be agreed upon to be used, and you and Dan and Mike and others have agreed that when there is not enough concrete evidence, and even in spite of tremendous anecdotal testimony to the contrary that something might be true, it must be put aside and noted that it is not relevant. As an example, it is often quoted by DRAJ people, and others... that the technical basis for Aikido must be DRAJ. Often times it is "said" O-Sensei was a master of many art forms. However any substantial martial training O-Sensei may have had in other arts, and any substantial training he may have had when he was in China, ...etc. has been taken off the table as there is no clear evidence that would prove it to any historical degree. If that is the standard, then the examples you have cited are simply not sufficient proof that DRAJ and Aikido are related. Pretty much the only thing that would suffice beyond a reasonable doubt is O-Sensei saying on film, or found in his writings that the technical basis for Aikido is DRAJ, and that beyond that, that it is such a technical basis that is the focus of the art form..
Shuan,

I think your requirement that O-Sensei needs to come out and say on film that the technical basis for Aikido is DRAJ is a bit over the top.

Consider the following:

1. Ueshiba learnt Daito-ryu directly from Takeda
2. Ueshiba called his art Daito-ryu Aiki Jujutsu for many years prior to renaming it Aikido.
3. Ueshiba issued Daito-ryu Aiki Jujutsu certificates to his students

Ueshiba had students who studied with him throughout the name change from DRAJ to Aikido. They did not report any sudden shift in what or how Ueshiba was teaching.

How much more support do you need for the argument that DRAJ is the technical basis of Aikido?

It seems patently obvious. And not open to debate, unless someone is looking to argue for arguement's sake.

Whether it is the "focus" of the art is a matter of opinion.

...rab

Last edited by Rabih Shanshiry : 07-30-2009 at 05:56 AM.
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Old 07-30-2009, 06:25 AM   #22
Flintstone
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Re: Aikido waza impairment?

People look but don't see, Rabih. All certificates from Mochizuki Sensei were from Daito Ryu and were issued by Ueshiba. Same goes for other students of the time. Guess evidence is clearly there. Also no matter what we do or say, people don't want to see.

Best,
Alex.
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Old 07-30-2009, 03:04 PM   #23
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Re: Aikido waza impairment?

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
People look but don't see, Rabih. All certificates from Mochizuki Sensei were from Daito Ryu and were issued by Ueshiba. Same goes for other students of the time. Guess evidence is clearly there. Also no matter what we do or say, people don't want to see.

Best,
Alex.
Quote:
Rabih Shanshiry wrote: View Post
Shaun,

I think your requirement that O-Sensei needs to come out and say on film that the technical basis for Aikido is DRAJ is a bit over the top.
Well, I don't think we will ever have the chance, but I could be wrong. In any case, all I am saying is without him coming out and stating that, we will need much more in the way of supporting evidence to reach the conclusion you so readily are prepared to offer up.
Quote:
Rabih Shanshiry wrote: View Post
Ueshiba had students who studied with him throughout the name change from DRAJ to Aikido. They did not report any sudden shift in what or how Ueshiba was teaching.
Quote:
Rabih Shanshiry wrote: View Post
How much more support do you need for the argument that DRAJ is the technical basis of Aikido?
if that were the truth, then why do they feel completely different?

Quote:
Rabih Shanshiry wrote: View Post
It seems patently obvious. And not open to debate, unless someone is looking to argue for arguement's sake. Whether it is the "focus" of the art is a matter of opinion.

...rab
Very Interesting that you start a debate by saying there is no debate, yet here we are having one. It seems to me that you both are guilty of exactly what it is that I like to point to when it comes to these issues. There is a clear double standard in the way you choose to examine the evidence, applying your standard in only one direction, one that clearly gives you the answer you either started with or wanted to end up with.

Quote:
Rabih Shanshiry wrote: View Post
Consider the following:

1. Ueshiba learnt Daito-ryu directly from Takeda
2. Ueshiba called his art Daito-ryu Aiki Jujutsu for many years prior to renaming it Aikido.
3. Ueshiba issued Daito-ryu Aiki Jujutsu certificates to his students
Again, while each of the facts you offer are true, there is no way to use them to establish any conclusive argument whatsoever. For example, given the exact same set of facts I have experienced with regards to my own teacher and organization, if one were to draw the same conclusions using your standards, one would be completely wrong.

20 years ago, my Aikido teacher taught Aikido. He learned it from his teacher, Seagal Sensei. We received our Aikido certificates through the Aikikai. My teacher still teaches Aikido and we still get our certificates from the Aikikai. However, if you looked at what is going on in the dojo today, while the outer-waza may look the same by all accounts, from a technical basis what we are doing today has absolutely zero to do with what we were doing say even 5 years ago. So... which is the real Aikido, what we were doing back then, or what we are doing now? You might be quick to venture a guess, but wait... See, what you can't know from where you stand is that there are things that have gone on behind the scenes that as an average student of the dojo, you wouldn't ever know. My teacher had an encounter that changed how he sees martial arts for him. Perhaps this was his "golden light" experience, just as O-Sensei had at some point after the "name change" you spoke of. Things were obviously different at the end of O-Sensei's time, so travel back and tell me when the change happened. Well things changed for my teacher, and and this meant things for his students changed, too. It was a veritable walk straight for 30 years and then suddenly turn left in the middle of the desert and head in a completely different direction.

1. Matsuoka Sensei learned Aikido from Seagal Sensei.
2. We were Tenshin Dojo for many years
3. Certificates are still Aiki-kai

Are you trying to tell me that the technical basis for what my teacher is doing now is the same as what it always was? I think he might just have to disagree. Oh, by the way, even though things basically stayed the same for 25 years, what he was doing feels completely different than what he is doing now, too, just like at some point when O-Sensei went from teaching DRAJ to Aikido.

So, given the indisputably clear standard you used to come to your absolutely clear conclusion I ask you - If the standard is only right 50% of the time, how much of a standard, can it really be?

Best in training to you and all...

.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 07-30-2009, 03:09 PM   #24
Flintstone
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Re: Aikido waza impairment?

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Shaun Ravens wrote: View Post
if that were the truth, then why do they feel completely different?
How do you know if Mochizuki's or Shioda's Aikido feel completely different from Daito Ryu? More so, how do you know Takuma's Daito Ryu feel completely different from mainline Daito Ryu?
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Old 07-30-2009, 03:26 PM   #25
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Re: Aikido waza impairment?

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
How do you know if Mochizuki's or Shioda's Aikido feel completely different from Daito Ryu? More so, how do you know Takuma's Daito Ryu feel completely different from mainline Daito Ryu?
Alejandro, damn good questions, you have there.

Are you saying they don't feel different?

While I speak in absolutes at times, I am clear that they are based upon my own experiences and nothing more. Of course, I know what those experiences are. You obviously can not know them. I have felt quite a varied bit of DRAJ in the last 20 years. I am sure it is fairly limited in terms of what is out there, but it was all very similar in how it made my body react upon contact and throughout the waza. When I watch films of Mochizuki Sensei, Shioda Sensei, other high level Aikido Sensei along with videos of Kondo Sensei, and other high level DRAJ Sensei, I see obvious currents that run through the demonstrations. With an intermediate level of understanding, one can watch what happens to the uke's body and extrapolate enough in formation to determine if Aiki is being applied, ...or not. If you know more, than you might even have a general understanding of what type of Aiki or how Aiki is being applied.

Of course, if you had an example of how the Aiki of DRAJ differs from the Aiki of Aikido, then you might even be able to determine which Aiki was being applied by which Sensei, and be able to tell which Sensei was throwing you if you were taking ukemi, blindfolded. Of course, that is saying if such an example might actually exist. If it did, then you might also be surprised what that pre-supposes about O-Sensei and his teaching of DRAJ versus his teaching of Aikido. I know it shocked the hell out of me.

Best in training to you and all...

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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