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Old 07-25-2009, 08:19 PM   #251
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: What is IT?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Shear. Shear is hard to "see." When a material completely fails in compression or in tension it almost always fails first in a local shear from some isolated discontinuity or local weakness. That then cascades into linear stress failure because the material is at its elastic limit, and th shear failure is the proverbial straw. In buckling the shear is all that is necessary to cause structural failure, becasue there is no "reserve" structure. See here. http://www.nbcolympics.com/weightlif...id=206808.html That man's elbow failed in a buckling shear.

Well, the fact is that all the "forms" of aiki taiso follow the shapes of and implement 3D shear dynamics. Their spiral form follows the same shapes as wingtip vortices of aerodynmaic lift -- also a phenomenon manipulating shear forces. The Aiki Taiso are adapted to express it, and structurally, endure it, and manipulate it and the waza are set piece episodes in which they can be shown linearly for the uninitiated. They can be shown in any other number of forms, if the form and structure are BOTH correct to express them. One has to be able to "see" or feel shear first, however, which is NOT easy -- in part because our bodies take that sense from us by formulating a reflexive reaction well before making it available to conscious response.

Now we are getting somewhere. The spinal reflexes that control involuntary flexion and extension are uniquely sensitive to shear loading - because every structure is weakest in shear. Thus, by applying shear loading (nikkyo, sankyo grossly -- tekubifuri, furitama, much more subtly) one both attacks the weakest structural elements AND also triggers the body's protective mechanisms designed to shield those structures from excessive shear loading -- which can be exploited in "following the failure" if moving in concert with the natural form that such reflexive action takes long before conscious reaction can correct the situation.
I take it back...

j - u - s - t
o - n - e
m - o - r - e
p - o - s - t.....

ahhhhhhhhhhhh! please make it stop!!!!!!

PS - wouldn't it be totally ironic if it actually turned out that eric not only knew what we were all talking about, but knew what he was talking about, as well? I mean... damn!!!

...I would just love that!

.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 07-25-2009, 08:26 PM   #252
Mike Sigman
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Re: What is IT?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Now we are getting somewhere. The spinal reflexes that control involuntary flexion and extension are uniquely sensitive to shear loading - because every structure is weakest in shear. Thus, by applying shear loading (nikkyo, sankyo grossly -- tekubifuri, furitama, much more subtly) one both attacks the weakest structural elements AND also triggers the body's protective mechanisms designed to shield those structures from excessive shear loading -- which can be exploited in "following the failure" if moving in concert with the natural form that such reflexive action takes long before conscious reaction can correct the situation.
Ah.... so this is "IT"? Techniques and their effects on people? I guess I'd forgotten... but now I remember, come to think of it .... you used to mention technique in this way, but I'd forgotten, over time.
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Old 07-25-2009, 08:40 PM   #253
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I would disagree with some of Shaun's replies to you about what "IT" is, BTW. The assumption is that Shaun knows all these things well enough to be an expert and I simply have no idea what he can do and can't do. The idea that he is better than Chen Xiaowang is startling news indeed; perhaps I should go to Shaun and learn from him.
Ha, Mike,

Pretty good one there... I most certainly did not say, nor would I believe for a second that I am now, now might ever be even 1/10th the martial artist of the gentleman in the video. What I did say was
  • Definitely not Aiki! Not even close! still true...
  • I am most sure that is not the best he can do I am sure there are many demonstrations which would illustrate his many talents. I am sure, because I have seen them, and this I would consider a poor example of them, and not an example or it, or aiki.
  • lowly old me, even with my poor, mostly unproven skills can do that with about 1/10th the effortand I have, and continue to do so, and (ahem) not just on my own students, and most certainly with individuals who outweigh me by a hundred pounds.
  • Very, very low level (demonstration) from what I have seen sorry, but it really is a very poor demonstration of anything outisde of low level (and I can't believe I am going to say this...) angular momentum.
  • quite low compared to what I could do almost 10 years ago
    Sorry, but these are the type of demonstrations I was doing back then. I probably have some on video, but more likely from about 2002, as I was more than likely to rip a video or still camera out of your hand and punch you in your face if you had pointed one at me while training (or not) until around then...

In any case, Mike, I have nothing to teach you. Though I would be more than happy to come and learn from you if the right opportunity ever presented itself.

.

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Old 07-25-2009, 08:58 PM   #254
Mike Sigman
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote: View Post
Pretty good one there... I most certainly did not say, nor would I believe for a second that I am now, now might ever be even 1/10th the martial artist of the gentleman in the video.
See? I knew we could find something to agree upon!
Quote:
What I did say was[list][*]Definitely not Aiki! Not even close! still true...
Well, I dunno. Then are you saying that when Ueshiba stood immoveable against Tenryu's push and said (Ueshiba said) that he used the 'secret of aiki' (or was it "aikido") that he wasn't doing as he said? I could make a pretty compelling and demonstrable argument that what CXW did and the same things that Ueshiba did could indeed be called "aiki" and that the matter of Uke falling or being held in place are just variations of the kind of results that you can do with jin/kokyu/ki skills.
Quote:
[*]lowly old me, even with my poor, mostly unproven skills can do that with about 1/10th the effortand I have, and continue to do so, and (ahem) not just on my own students, and most certainly with individuals who outweigh me by a hundred pounds.
Could you stand against my 2-finger push, though, without leaning into it?
Quote:
[*]Very, very low level (demonstration) from what I have seen sorry, but it really is a very poor demonstration of anything outisde of low level (and I can't believe I am going to say this...) angular momentum.
"Momentum"????

But anyway, this is actually a good kind of conversation because ideas and terms get traded back and forth. People formulate and articulate their ideas. Others read and some get triggered on analytical thoughts. And so on. People progress.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 07-25-2009, 09:41 PM   #255
Buck
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

I haven't read the entire thread. I may be saying what already has been said, but if so it is worth repeating. It has to do with doughnuts and doughnut holes, as pointed out earlier.

Isn't it about getting there, but rather it is about the journey, as the saying goes. What does a person really want out of aikido and the perspective that leads them to thinking something is missing. It is rather about then something that has yet to be seen or discovered? There is this old viral youtube vid thingy about awareness that applies here too.

When we don't see the bear walking throughplayers passing the ball between themselves is because we choose to focus on the action. When we choose to focus not on the action, rather than focusing on the non-action. We focus on the ball and the people passing the ball. Similarly, to the concept of negative space in art where another image exists in the negative space. We focus on the positive space of a picture, one that has an image in the negative space, seeing the positive space image only. Something that is over-looked, the image in negative space, that was always there, but had gone unnoticed at the first look.

When we see the bear "person in a bear outfit" walking through the people tossing around the ball we are amazed and bewildered. We say wow, how did I miss that, why didn't I see that before? And the same goes for the picture too. All of which exist at one point or another in the same space, but it was our perspective that focused on only singularly on the action, on the positive space.

When then wonder what is missing say in our practice from one school or the other. What wasn't being taught that was missed? What ultimate secret exists that will make me so fantastically incredible out there. The answer is maybe nothing like that at all. Maybe it is a matter of what we are looking at. I could stop here an try get that profound effect thingy going, but I would rather not. maybe it isn't the positive space, but the negative space of the self. The negative space of the self our perspective, our wants, our desires, our expectations., our attitudes, our thinking. Like the bear, those things go un-noticed. Like the doughnut hole, ignored.

If we are looking for secrets, or improvements maybe we should look at our attitudes, and reasons for why such things are important. Rather focusing on the importance of the journey over the goal. That way we see the bear, we see the second image in the negative space. Instead of the postive space of what we think we are missing.

I remember in a college class the prof. said he wasn't into spoon feeding teaching. He said, that is done in elementary school where it is needed. Where the young mind isn't fully developed. Young developing minds are in process and not fully functioning. But, that isn't true for our minds, which were past that. And he would be teaching us to learn for ourselves. Not to rely on him to give us the information he wants us or that he thinks we should have (the goal), but for us to think on our own (the journey). This was enlightening because it teaches us to preceive things in a different way, to be independent. Point being not to think we are missing something, but rather thinking instead that there is so much we don't know that we have yet to explore.

I personally feel thinking there is something missing in my Aikido would really lead me down the wrong path. Instead, I prefer to look at it like this, I have allot to learn, a lot to explore, it is endless. There is nothing definite, it is living as it is an art. And if I think I got it all, I hope am wrong. IMO

Last edited by Buck : 07-25-2009 at 09:53 PM.
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Old 07-25-2009, 10:34 PM   #256
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Shaun Ravens wrote: View Post
I am sure that both you and Eric might spend weeks deciding on models with which one could be 100% sure you were first talking about the same thing, ... .
Actually I started with an (apparently unwarranted) assumption, that the language of mechanics was more widely understood than it is, and that those who claimed more profound knowledge than what my mechanical intuition and analytical observation of practice has led me to, might be more amenable to it.

At this point I have concluded that the overwhelming majority of learning styles of people that keep doing and deepening in martial art are not of the same type as me. So there is a disconnect. So my task is to overcome that -- to lead a discussion from prosaic analogy or comparison -- from the general to the specific, while avoiding the typical pitfalls of turf, ego and other reflexive resistance to a different way of describing something.

-- All of which is vastly more difficult than simply saying that modulating cycles of vibration is the heart of the matter -- There is no obvious way of generalizing that broad and correct observation for application without drawing the branches of mechanics and the biology together. Who said that was easy? What I have to say about what I know can't be said or written in any other way. And apparently neither can the topic of the biomechanics of aiki or "it" be written of with any greater ease -- because, ya know, if it really could be -- by now -- it probably would have been.

And it hasn't... yet.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 07-25-2009, 10:47 PM   #257
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Shaun wrote:
PS - wouldn't it be totally ironic if it actually turned out that eric not only knew what we were all talking about, but knew what he was talking about, as well? I mean... damn!!!

...I would just love that!
And so the thread apparently dies for lack of a second,--- but with less rancor -- there's an improvement ...

There is no mechanics. It does not exist. It has no use. There is nothing to learn that has not already been learned. Everything that can be invented has been invented.

The Doka are meaningless, the spirit of bees and snakes -- delusion. Aiki is not spiral the shape is meaningless... -- The center of vibration -- nonsense syllables ...

I am the wind in the meadow. I was never here.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 07-25-2009 at 10:55 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 07-25-2009, 11:35 PM   #258
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
I haven't read the entire thread. I may be saying what already has been said, but if so it is worth repeating. It has to do with doughnuts and doughnut holes, as pointed out earlier.

Isn't it about getting there, but rather it is about the journey, as the saying goes. What does a person really want out of aikido and the perspective that leads them to thinking something is missing. It is rather about then something that has yet to be seen or discovered? There is this old viral youtube vid thingy about awareness that applies here too.

When we don't see the bear walking through players passing the ball between themselves is because we choose to focus on the action. When we choose to focus not on the action, rather than focusing on the non-action. We focus on the ball and the people passing the ball. Similarly, to the concept of negative space in art where another image exists in the negative space. We focus on the positive space of a picture, one that has an image in the negative space, seeing the positive space image only. Something that is over-looked, the image in negative space, that was always there, but had gone unnoticed at the first look.

When we see the bear "person in a bear outfit" walking through the people tossing around the ball we are amazed and bewildered. We say wow, how did I miss that, why didn't I see that before? And the same goes for the picture too. All of which exist at one point or another in the same space, but it was our perspective that focused on only singularly on the action, on the positive space.

When then wonder what is missing say in our practice from one school or the other. What wasn't being taught that was missed? What ultimate secret exists that will make me so fantastically incredible out there. The answer is maybe nothing like that at all. Maybe it is a matter of what we are looking at. I could stop here an try get that profound effect thingy going, but I would rather not. maybe it isn't the positive space, but the negative space of the self. The negative space of the self our perspective, our wants, our desires, our expectations., our attitudes, our thinking. Like the bear, those things go un-noticed. Like the doughnut hole, ignored.

If we are looking for secrets, or improvements maybe we should look at our attitudes, and reasons for why such things are important. Rather focusing on the importance of the journey over the goal. That way we see the bear, we see the second image in the negative space. Instead of the postive space of what we think we are missing.
huh?

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
I remember in a college class the prof. said he wasn't into spoon feeding teaching. He said, that is done in elementary school where it is needed. Where the young mind isn't fully developed. Young developing minds are in process and not fully functioning. But, that isn't true for our minds, which were past that. And he would be teaching us to learn for ourselves. Not to rely on him to give us the information he wants us or that he thinks we should have (the goal), but for us to think on our own (the journey). This was enlightening because it teaches us to preceive things in a different way, to be independent. Point being not to think we are missing something, but rather thinking instead that there is so much we don't know that we have yet to explore.
My father was an administrator in the New York City school system for close to 30 years. I remember him telling me a story about a teacher just like the one you described. He called the teacher into his office and said to her, "There are two methods of teaching. The first is to teach people how to do things by telling them how to think. While this is best for children who don't have the intelligence with which to challenge you, it can also be used effectively for those who can only learn this way because they can not learn from the subtlety of the second method. The second way to is to teach by demonstrating a model for a proper way of learning that can be observed and assimilated by the student so the student can learn how to learn." He continued, "You do not teach using either method. You stand up there and challenge students to learn when you offer them no model from which to learn. Students can not observe you learning, or growing as a teacher, or even as a person. Each year you return and teach the same lesson you did the first year you began teaching. Nothing changes, not you, nor your lessons nor your methods. In fact you are not teaching at all, and that is the reason I am going to have to let you go."

The teacher was astounded, but was terminated just the same. They just couldn't see how far off they actually were from where they thought they were. Of course, all of the students already knew. We have all had teacher's like the one you describe and the one my father fired. While it may have worked for you, and I am glad you got something out of it, more than likely the best thing that ever could have happened to them is if they had been challenged to come up with a method of teaching that actually did what it was supposed to do - TEACH.

...so desune!

.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 07-25-2009, 11:44 PM   #259
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
And so the thread apparently dies for lack of a second,--- but with less rancor -- there's an improvement ...
Eric,

I think, as Mike said, that the thread is alive and well. There is a high level of communication going on that also runs parallel to the disconnect of which you speak. Truth be told, the gap may never be bridged. Alas, it is also true that without the current level of communication the gap will most definitely not be bridged, and that would be tragic and sad.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
There is no mechanics. It does not exist. It has no use. There is nothing to learn that has not already been learned. Everything that can be invented has been invented.
Surely you jest...

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
The Doka are meaningless, the spirit of bees and snakes -- delusion. Aiki is not spiral the shape is meaningless... -- The center of vibration -- nonsense syllables ...
I feel ya, man, I really do. That is why I said would it not be ironic if... because at least you are actively questioning, and that is light years ahead of most Aikidoka. My hat is off to you and your efforts, which are both pure of heart and true in intention

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
I am the wind in the meadow. I was never here.
I am right there with you, and you and I and the wind and the meadow are one in Aiki. We have always been here.

.

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Old 07-25-2009, 11:46 PM   #260
rob_liberti
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
The last few years have been interesting to watch. If people think back to, what, 2005 I think, there was an interesting gauntlet involving conformity of speaking, "outsiders", "what rank do you have?", "my teacher G. Sensei already does all that and he taught me to do it, too", "I don't like you personally", "we already do that and if you want lessons, you have to come to my dojo," and so on. Watching the process has been intriguing.
We have come a long way. In 2005, I didn't read anything about:
Can you deliver force without committing weight?
Can you move freely without your balance being vulnerable to pushes and pulls on the line from anus to navel?
Did you develop "heavy hands" and the ability to resist throws and manipulations?
How long did it take you to develop such things?
And not too much about: Are the hips driving your power or not?

Instead I recall posts about:
- a jo trick that no one else was doing. It just didn't impress upon me the idea that aiki skills to that level were attainable.

- moving with kokyu or jin forces. That did nothing to impress me because there are plenty of aikido people who have kokyu power to a ridiculous degree relative to the average guy. (Which is probably why people like David continue to hold their beliefs.) I just assumed you were another CMA guy who probably couldn't move all that well but had all sorts of power standing in one spot - and were judging people who were moving around unfairly.

- And, to be honest, my trust level of the only available source posting about *IT* was a bit shaken after reading a bizarre and controversial opinion paper which seemed to get misinterpreted; and then passed off as fact.
http://aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.p...&postcount=152
Yikes...

I wrote about our points of divergence before:
http://aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.p...&postcount=258

Somehow we managed.. -Rob
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Old 07-26-2009, 12:03 AM   #261
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
See? I knew we could find something to agree upon!


Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Well, I dunno. Then are you saying that when Ueshiba stood immovable against Tenryu's push and said (Ueshiba said) that he used the 'secret of aiki' (or was it "aikido") that he wasn't doing as he said?
No I am sure O-Sensei was doing what he said. I am just not so convinced that he would agree that what he was doing had much to do with what you are describing. I am sure there would be overlaps on some levels, but I think the differences that are not being discussed here are more important than the similarities that everyone is trying to come to some agreement about. I am all for coming to some agreement that these things are important body skills which are paramount to develop in all martial arts. However, they are not the be all end all of O-Sensei's Aikido that many (of late) seem to try and hold them up to be.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I could make a pretty compelling and demonstrable argument that what CXW did and the same things that Ueshiba did could indeed be called "aiki" and that the matter of Uke falling or being held in place are just variations of the kind of results that you can do with jin/kokyu/ki skills.
I might agree with you there, but as you yourself have said, "There are many ways to skin a cat." In the end the cat is held in place before skinning him. Its just that some hurt more than others, and some don't hurt at all...

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Could you stand against my 2-finger push, though, without leaning into it?
I would certainly love to give it my best shot. I will say that I walked into one of my teacher's fists one time and it hurt me more than hitting my head in a car accident where I broke two telephone poles in half and broke my car into four pieces - and it just so happens that his fist wasn't moving. I have also had the pleasure to receive another teacher's 1 inch punch. Not the BS ones you see on youtube where people twist their hips and move their weight into their hand as their hip moves forward. I mean the kind where there is no visible explosion of movement in his body at all, but about a split second after contact, just as his fist is receding a powerful burst of energy hit me so hard that my body launched over five feet straight up and almost 10 feet to the rear. So, if you can do something like either of those two things, then, no... I couldn't resist it. I must add, though that I wasn't trying to resist either of those two things, as the first one caught me off guard, and the second one I asked for so I could see how it felt. I did let Vladimir from Systema hit me pretty square about 10 times. Didn't really hurt me at all, and I didn't move off my spot. But I wasn't trying to resist that either, nor direct it back into him, as the instruction was to just let it in and absorb it, systema-style, which while counter productive to my level of understanding was the first and last time I ever tried to do that.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
"Momentum"????
Yeah, that is why I said it seemed so low level. I mean it seemed as though he was leaning into the uke and would have fallen forward had the uke pulled him back.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
But anyway, this is actually a good kind of conversation because ideas and terms get traded back and forth. People formulate and articulate their ideas. Others read and some get triggered on analytical thoughts. And so on. People progress.
I couldn't agree with you more. Okay, I could... but not today.

...best in training to all.

.

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Old 07-26-2009, 12:12 AM   #262
rob_liberti
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote: View Post
O-Sensei did forward his art to specific teachers, and believe it or not, there actually is a list.
Shaun,

Do the people on that list:
- deliver force without committing weight?
- move freely without their balance being vulnerable to pushes and pulls on the line from anus to navel?
- have "heavy hands" and the ability to resist throws and manipulations?
- move so that their hips are not driving their power?
- successfully teach that to others in 5 years or so?

Or can you provide a list of valuable skills offered by the people on that *official* "list" and how long to acquire them?

Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 07-26-2009 at 12:16 AM.
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Old 07-26-2009, 12:36 AM   #263
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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David Skaggs wrote: View Post
A lot, as long as there is objective common reference points that everyone can understand. Regardless how much you agree with the definition, it is a starting point that most people are able to understand.
Have you found any explanations which you felt fit the bill? If you have, who (or which location/thread) seems to have had the most useful descriptions for you?

Quote:
I am not enticed by the explanation " It is a secret, I can show you" ( reminds of of sideshows at he county fair), I am enticed by an explanation that is openly discussed in seeking the truth.

David
Likewise. I particularly liked the Man-Eating-Rabbit operation. Inside the tent was a man eating a rabbit.
Take care,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 07-26-2009, 01:07 AM   #264
Buck
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Shaun Ravens wrote: View Post
huh?

.
What we think we are missing isn't always where we focus first upon that matters, but rather in the place where we usually don't place our focus.

Look here depending on where you place your focus it is either one thing or another. If you focus on the negative space it is one image, if you focus on the positive space it is another image.
http://www.switched.com/2008/09/17/t...s-on-the-web-4

Same with Aikido, are you missing something or are you not. It is where you place your focus. If your intent is to a means, a goal, you will only see one image, the positive one more often then not. But if you are into the journey, placing your focus there then you soon see both images. That is how secrets in Aikido can be discovered.

If you are focused on a goal for too long you will start to ask yourself if you are missing something if you don't reach that goal quickly or in a certain amount of time. If you are not bothered by such a thing then it doesn't enter your mind such a question that something is missing in your Aikido.

Aikido also is like any craft or art, mastery over time working at it. And having the right perspective allowing you to see that the road to mastery. Just like any art or craft worth investing in.

My young cousin learned to play electric guitar good enough to preform publicly in clubs for a cover band in under two years. He feels he knows it all. His is father learned to play classical guitar at 6 years old. He is 55 now, and he is still learning to play, despite his ability at winning top awards for his technical guitar playing. His ability to play complex pieces of music. His father is always improving and enjoying it. Discovering things about the guitar, working to improve further upon his skill and knowledge. Something lost on his son who wants quick guitar tricks to sound like his guitar heros and idols. Unlike his father who professional reads and understands music, his son doesn't. His son only reads tabs and not notes, and guesses alot at what is being played.

Point being the Father is a master craftsmen of his instrument, his son is merely a cover guitarist. The son is always asking or seeking out what he thinks he is missing. Ironic huh? Here again it is about what we focus on and what we don't.

BTW, I am a musician. I play the trumpet. I started in high school and continued in college. Yes an Aikidoka who is a band geek. Who believes both arts relate, over-lap, and have similarities they share, that teach us the same lessons. All it is, is case of perspective that eludes some from what they feel is missing in their Aikido. Be it teaching as they see it, or what have you. Hopefully, this will help them find it.

Now-a-days as my grandfather says, we are losing quickly the venerable art of craftsmenship.

Last edited by Buck : 07-26-2009 at 01:17 AM.
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Old 07-26-2009, 01:19 AM   #265
Buck
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Have you found any explanations which you felt fit the bill? If you have, who (or which location/thread) seems to have had the most useful descriptions for you?

Likewise. I particularly liked the Man-Eating-Rabbit operation. Inside the tent was a man eating a rabbit.
Take care,
Matt
Applause. Man-Eating-Rabbit, that just kills me.
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Old 07-26-2009, 04:18 AM   #266
dps
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Shaun Ravens wrote: View Post
My father was an administrator in the New York City school system for close to 30 years.
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The teacher was astounded, but was terminated just the same.
Now that would be an unbelievable feat!!!!

David

Last edited by dps : 07-26-2009 at 04:21 AM.
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Old 07-26-2009, 05:19 AM   #267
dps
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Have you found any explanations which you felt fit the bill? If you have, who (or which location/thread) seems to have had the most useful descriptions for you?
No, not completely as much as I am able to understand the explanations
.
I see that we need a common starting point that everyone ( there will always be at least one who won't) can agree on. To keep it simple, I suggest the first 38 seconds of the following link as that starting point. This describes what is going on outside the body ( the body being the orange block in the video) .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNG8CAmszH0

The question is what is going on inside the body to redirect the force(s) applied outside the body to the ground without the body collapsing?

David

Last edited by dps : 07-26-2009 at 05:24 AM.
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Old 07-26-2009, 07:22 AM   #268
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Shaun Ravens wrote: View Post
Mary,

You might be surprised by just what I know, or better yet what is not needed to have been know to respond as I did in that post. My repugnant view of philosophy in terms of its usefulness is echoed in two parts
"Repugnant"? Ok, then, out of your own mouth...

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote: View Post
1. My Uncle is a quite well-known philospher, in his own right, and I was quite readily trained as such from a very early age. He was also a math genius as well as a child musical prodigy, too. As far as his great mind took him, and that was quite far, it did not prepare him for what life had queued up for him and thus he now is quite mad. You see, all the philosophy in the world just isn't enough to save even the brightest of minds. As in the case with my uncle and Socrates, alike, it does, often times condemn them...
I'm not sure where you're making the connection between my citing a statement by one philosopher and your uncle's madness. Perhaps your personal family tragedy has caused you to have an aversion to all things philosophical, much as someone who has lost a loved one in a plane crash might fear and hate all things relating to aviation. Much as I can sympathize with the feeling, and moreso with the events that give rise to it, I can't regard it as rational and sensible -- understandable, yes; sensible, no. I'm not telling you not to feel what you feel, but you might want to consider that your personal history is not shared by others, and that most others probably see some usefulness in philosophy. I'm not a navel-gazer, myself, but I find from time to time that a philosopher's words will help to distill or illuminate life experiences. Of course, without the life experiences to reflect on, it's all pretty empty to me. I find it very much like training in that regard: a whole lotta training, and then a little thinking to reflect on it (in terms of time spent), is about the right mix for me.

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote: View Post
2. casual search on a review of the author and book to which you have referred unveils this poignant ditty , to which I must concur, right up at the top of the list...
[b]
John Ralston Saul, one of Canada's leading political philosophers, has <blahdeblahdeblah>
...and casual websearch on Barack Obama unveils that he is an illegal immigrant and an Islamist terrorist. Isn't the web wonderful?

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Shaun Ravens wrote: View Post
So, perhaps the joke is not on me, but is your source and its author, instead.
Perhaps the joke is on the one who turned the subject to jokes in the first place.

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Shaun Ravens wrote: View Post
...best in training to all..
Bless your heart!

Last edited by lbb : 07-26-2009 at 07:28 AM.
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Old 07-26-2009, 08:31 AM   #269
Mike Sigman
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
We have come a long way. In 2005, I didn't read anything about:
Can you deliver force without committing weight?
Can you move freely without your balance being vulnerable to pushes and pulls on the line from anus to navel?
Did you develop "heavy hands" and the ability to resist throws and manipulations?
How long did it take you to develop such things?
And not too much about: Are the hips driving your power or not?
Really? And you don't recognize what I said as a legitimate first step? And the last one.... That's interesting. There may be other things to learn, Rob!

However, the point is watching the change from yesterday to today, while saying that there's also going to be some change from today to tomorrow, so be careful out there and keep an open mind.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 07-26-2009, 08:36 AM   #270
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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David Skaggs wrote: View Post
I see that we need a common starting point that everyone ( there will always be at least one who won't) can agree on. To keep it simple, I suggest the first 38 seconds of the following link as that starting point. This describes what is going on outside the body ( the body being the orange block in the video) .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNG8CAmszH0

The question is what is going on inside the body to redirect the force(s) applied outside the body to the ground without the body collapsing?

David
OK, the zombie master revives me. Beware.

First. The diagram is NOT doing what we are doing to the block (if it were another person). The model shown is a translation (against sliding friction) without rotation --whereas what we are (usually) doing is fundamentally a rotation (every several different types and cycles) but rotations nonetheless. How do you move a refrigerator single-handedly?

Vectors are harder in many respects because they involve an abstract force with an acceleration term, and are hard to "see" when acting in more than one plane. Moment just involves distance and mass, and rotations from one plane to another are relatively easy to "see." Rather than using the method of vectors -- use the method of moments to analyze it and see what you get. The most efficient method of moving any mass is by rotations -- either directly or indirectly.

Second-- the resistance in your scenario is from ground friction. Think about how to defeat the ground friction of the mass using cycles of motion. Think about how without pushing on anything you get a swing to swing higher. It is a critically resonant pulse. Do that to the mass. People in some respects are easier because they are reflexively responsive to resonant pulses. What is going on in the body to do those things reflects what is being done outside the body by doing them.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 07-26-2009, 08:49 AM   #271
Mike Sigman
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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I am all for coming to some agreement that these things are important body skills which are paramount to develop in all martial arts. However, they are not the be all end all of O-Sensei's Aikido that many (of late) seem to try and hold them up to be.
I agree absolutely. There are not the end all or the complete art and anyone who thinks just because they have some internal-strength they're knowledgeable about Aikido (or other arts) is simply wrong. I mentioned this (modified) old saying a few times, some years ago: "Aikido without a baseline of internal strength is no good; internal strength without really knowing Aikido won't work, either.".
Quote:
I would certainly love to give it my best shot. I will say that I walked into one of my teacher's fists one time and it hurt me more than hitting my head in a car accident where I broke two telephone poles in half and broke my car into four pieces - and it just so happens that his fist wasn't moving. I have also had the pleasure to receive another teacher's 1 inch punch. Not the BS ones you see on youtube where people twist their hips and move their weight into their hand as their hip moves forward. I mean the kind where there is no visible explosion of movement in his body at all, but about a split second after contact, just as his fist is receding a powerful burst of energy hit me so hard that my body launched over five feet straight up and almost 10 feet to the rear. So, if you can do something like either of those two things, then, no... I couldn't resist it.
Actually, I simply meant me putting the tips of my two fingers against you and pushing you easily off balance. In terms of 1-inch punches, I don't do 'em. If I'm playing with demos for funnsies, I use no-inch punch.
Quote:
Yeah, that is why I said (momentum) it seemed so low level. I mean it seemed as though he was leaning into the uke and would have fallen forward had the uke pulled him back.
No movement, no momentum... that was my point. "Angular momentum" is a frippery when it comes to describing these skills; what body movements can't be described as angular-momentum? See?

These things are all one thing, Shaun. This was the beauty of the cosmology and the reason why all things came under the umbrella of Yin-Yang. You would argue that Ueshiba's "ai-ki" was something unique, yet he justified his ai-ki by referring to the Yin-Yang cosmology and the old Chinese texts. The Chinese of old would have argued that waht Ueshiba did was merely an aspect of the same hua-jin, etc., that has been present in various arts for a couple of thousand years. Who's right? You have your opinion; I'd calmly place my chips on the "everything is the same thing" square.


FWIW

Mike

Last edited by Mike Sigman : 07-26-2009 at 09:02 AM.
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Old 07-26-2009, 10:38 AM   #272
rob_liberti
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Really? And you don't recognize what I said as a legitimate first step?
Legitimate? Sure. It just seems like you keep wondering why people didn't catch on to what you were saying. And so I tried to explain the disconnect(s), especially for the benefit of some others here who might be trying to latch on to what *IT* can potentially mean to them.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
And the last one.... That's interesting.
Again, yikes, but it seems like the meds have kicked in nicely, and we are all thankful for that.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
However, the point is watching the change from yesterday to today,
We got that. The *additional point* was that maybe you were that poor misunderstood guy due to the message(s) you were delivering to your target audience. I'll take it to an extreme to make a point (that admittedly is not exactly an analogy here). I can imaging a situation where a movie house is on fire, and someone walks in calmy in and yells, "it sure is hot in the lobby"; and then laughs later at how the people were too dumb to know that meant get out because the place was on fire. It kind of reminds me how in NLP, they typically put the burden to be understood on the sender of the message. In our situation, I recognize that this is a considerable burden, as there are so many things working against understanding such a message (as described from my personal experience in the previous post).

And what's up with these two quotes?

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
There may be other things to learn, Rob!
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
...while saying that there's also going to be some change from today to tomorrow, so be careful out there and keep an open mind.
Of course. I'm all for being on the hyperbolic student side... I just made like 10 posts in this thread about just that. However, if you want to add to my list of skills I found valuable from my study of aiki - with skills you found valuable from your study of jin/whatever you call that skills set, please do. It think that would be HELPFUL (almost analogous to saying - "um hey folks, there is a small fire in the lobby, please exit in an orderly fashion" to torture a previous metaphor. Was it really *just me* who got that impression? Well, hey I'm thick.).

Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 07-26-2009 at 10:47 AM.
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Old 07-26-2009, 10:57 AM   #273
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Now that would be an unbelievable feat!!!!

David
David,

So nice to see that you have a good sense of humor. Many wouldn't know the actual power that the teacher's union has nor how they have truly damaged the national education system by raising costs and putting a system in place where terrible teachers can not be fired. Of course, Aikiweb is not the place for this conversation, and having retired 15 years ago because of the reasons to which you intimated, my father found that the NYC school system wasn't a place for him, either. Things have only gotten worse, but I blame the ebonix movement, and the pervasive integration of Rap/Hip-Hop music along with slang (poor grammar for the sake of looking cool) into the human consciousness due to the overwhelming influence of corporate America's need, like a drug dealer, to push images of inner city, low income and poor education in an effort to make us believe that they have embraced minorities and foreigner's choices to not learn proper English just so they can sell more McHamburgers and Nike/Addidas T-shirts and sneakers... Don't get me started on "Bloggers" whose combines weight has broken the back of quality, moral-driven news agencies, everywhere

...but that is a conversation for when we are old and vote republican in hopes of trying to roll things back to the GREAT 80's, you know that perfect decade of pure white decadence, where we still watched re-runs of The Brady Bunch and I Love Lucy. No irony there, as one had us watching a tortured, closeted homosexual father of six children and the other touted a misogynistic, broken-English muttering, conga playing Millionaire who liked to make his wife cry... No contradictory imagery there, but hey at least they advertised good old American tobacco, which we know doesn't cause cancer, and relaxes us with the smooth taste of Camel lights.

Get me outta here...

</sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek rant>.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 07-26-2009, 11:03 AM   #274
Mike Sigman
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
Again, yikes, but it seems like the meds have kicked in nicely, and we are all thankful for that.

We got that. The *additional point* was that maybe you were that poor misunderstood guy due to the message(s) you were delivering to your target audience.
As usual, you're off into the personal stuff, Rob. I pass. Good luck with your training.

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-26-2009, 11:24 AM   #275
jss
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Sy Labthavikul wrote: View Post
A running back with the ball is deep at the 20, zoning in for the touchdown. The only person in his way <snip>
I'd just like examples of "IT" and aiki.
Since I think your questions deserve an answer and since I answer them differently from Shaun, below are my answers. My definition of "IT" is a bit narrow (see my post earlier), but to me that is the most productive way to go for now.
"IT" and aiki: Chen Xiao Wang.
Could be "IT": the old farmer, the cook, the circus performer.
Neither: the running back, Dean and Harris, Alia and Toney, matador, Wing Tsun, the Taichichuan practitioners.

Quote:
Is one a method of obtaining the other? Is it the only method? Are they the same thing? If not, can you have one and not the other?
No.
No.
No.
Yes, you can have "IT", but not aiki. You cannot have aiki, but not "IT".

Last edited by jss : 07-26-2009 at 11:33 AM.
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