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Old 07-25-2009, 02:58 PM   #226
Mike Sigman
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
I am saying that nobody is yet distinctly questioning Erick at all, but rather pointing to their own opinions and saying, "I am right, so you must be wrong."
Ah. Well, you might as well include me also in that group of people I named. And I can name many more who think this is all fairly basic and are in agreement about what is happening. That's not an "appeal to authority", but I can see how someone who may not know how to do these things may think that all views are valid.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-25-2009, 03:05 PM   #227
jss
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote: View Post
With all due respect, David, You may want to go and visit with Dan, or Mike or Akuzawa Sensei if you have the opportunity so you can, at the very least have some common ground in terms of moving the conversation forward, but more importantly in terms of opening up your own training to levels higher than simplistic ju-jistu level waza.
Shaun, now you've got me confused. Aren't you leading him astray with that advice as you have also said:
Quote:
At the same time, I have been told that the "IT" that maybe being discussed here is simply not is what at the source of the Aiki in Aikido. I want to be clear, I am not talking about the non-physical component, nor the spiritual side, or the philosophical side of things. I am talking about the actual physical generation, culmination and application of the Aiki within Aikido.
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Old 07-25-2009, 03:11 PM   #228
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
Erick, "What is typically believed?" is fairly well represented by David.

I'm not sure how to say this politely. So I'll try a very hypothetical approach. I wonder what would happen to David's opinion if David were to have seen someone take Yamada sensei's nikkyo and just clearly jam the stink out of it say three times in a row - while politely bending their knees and tapping to help demonstrate. Or, if David were to see someone doing kokyu tanden ho with Mary Heiny sensei and just throw her backwards off of her knees - and then switch to grabbing her forearms to keep her from actually falling over. And then I further wonder what David might think if he found out that the uke was a150 pound aikido sandan who hadn't met Dan Harden yet. And let's say that maybe that sandan could not resist ANYTHING Dan wanted to do. Would David still hold on so tightly to his beliefs? I actually kind of think he might.
...

LMFAO!

....

But he does travel a lot which strangely offers credence to what my teacher said many years ago, "...If you don't want to get hit, don't be there.

.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 07-25-2009, 04:02 PM   #229
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I'm reminded of a book I once read...

"Today our civilization is not slumbering in unconscious self-confidence. Rather it resembles the wounded and confused animal of the eighteenth century. We are again the prisoners of scholastic rhetoric, which has blocked useful public communications by dividing our language up into thousands of closed specialist dialects. The result is the disappearance of almost any public language that could have a real impact on structures and actions. Instead we have an illusion of unlimited oral communications which are, in practical terms, a vast and murmuring silence."
To me this quote sounds like it comes from someone who just wasn't happy that they weren't in on the joke... Sorry, but common languages we have all day long, for whatever value they may serve in most cases developing one can and often does bring things to a grinding halt all in the name of "progress". I am thankful that although mass mediocrity is always determined to pull things down to the lowest common denominator, there are things, as in this case that can not be as the masses are not privy to a level of conversation that they can not see, hear or even understand. Thank goodness for that, as specialized subject matters which are quietly passed from generation to generation are not subject to outside review and as such, bastardization and mindless and political "adjustments" by those not qualified to make such decisions.

I typically find it ironic when I see who makes and supports such positions and get to see and feel their martial arts... I am hopeful to one day be surprised to find one not in conjunction with the other, but have yet to be.

...best in training to all.

.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 07-25-2009, 04:24 PM   #230
dps
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote: View Post
Personally, I didnt' see "IT" in any of the videos you provided links to. With all due respect, David, You may want to go and visit with Dan, or Mike or Akuzawa Sensei if you have the opportunity so you can, at the very least have some common ground in terms of moving the conversation forward, but more importantly in terms of opening up your own training to levels higher than simplistic ju-jistu level waza.

...best in training to all.

.
I would like this thread to be less like this tv show:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZgTk6pReeM

and more like this tv show;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJRNkCWJl68

What is your definition of IT Shaun?

David
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Old 07-25-2009, 05:42 PM   #231
Sy Labthavikul
Dojo: Aikido Academy USA of Alhambra
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

A running back with the ball is deep at the 20, zoning in for the touchdown. The only person in his way is a bullet of a defensive back right behind him, who's got the running back in his sights and is closing the distance fast. The running back keeps his beeline for the end zone. The defender sees his opportunity and dives for the tackle, but the running back manages to evade it with a slight twist of his hips and runs on true for the 6. Is this "IT"? Is this aiki?

Chen Xiaowang of Chen village is balanced on one foot as another man pushes quite audibly on him. Chen Xiaowang stands his ground and doesn't budge. This is surely "IT" but is it aiki? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldH40uF_f28)

Roy Dean is rolling with his BJJ teacher, Roy Harris. Their BJJ style is relaxed and wastes little energy. Dean is about to put Harris into an arm bar but doesn't quite have the right setup, as Harris keeps his arm bent and close to his centerline above his head; meanwhile, Harris grabs Dean's leg and puts painful pressure on Dean's ankle using the top of his head. Is this "IT"? Is this aiki? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RuXLocNAkg)

Mohammed Ali and James Toney use rope-a-dope to tire out their opponents, lying on the ropes and using their superior defense and stamina to take punishing blows without much damage, waiting for their opponent to tire and potshotting whenever an opening presents itself. Is this "IT"? Is this aiki?

A matador uses his red cape to lead a charging, enraged bull safely past him. Is this "IT"? Is this aiki?

Wing Tsun practitioners practice chi sau, sticky hands drills, using tactile sensitivity and ingrained instinctual motor responses to form bridges with their partner, sense motion and intention, and respond accordingly. Their bodies don't deviate much from the centerline. The punches come fast and intense. Is this "IT"? Is this aiki?

An old farmer who cannot weigh much more than 150 lbs has spent the majority of his life carrying heavy sacks of grain long distances around his farm and will continue to do so up until the day he dies. Is this "IT"? Is this "aiki"?

Taichichuan practitioners train in push hands, moving slowly and fluidly. They circle and spiral around each other, each seeking to unbalance the other. Is this "IT"? Is this aiki?

A cook is carrying a heavy pot of veal broth in his hands and has difficulty opening a heavy swinging door to get into the freezer. He leans his side up against the door, braces his feet, and pushes with his legs, popping open the door far enough to allow him to slip inside. Is this "IT"? Is this aiki?

A circus performer is forming the base of a human tower, the feet of his fellow performers planted firmly on each others shoulders. He is supporting close to 5 times his own bodyweight. Is this "IT"? Is this aiki?

I don't presume to know the answer to any of these questions, and I'm not trying to cleverly construct some sort of argument with rhetorical questions. I'd just like examples of "IT" and aiki. Is one a method of obtaining the other? Is it the only method? Are they the same thing? If not, can you have one and not the other?


---------------------------------
train as if the tengu will never visit, execute as if they already have
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Old 07-25-2009, 06:17 PM   #232
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
I would like this thread to be less like this tv show:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZgTk6pReeM

and more like this tv show;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJRNkCWJl68

David
I agree...and I realize this says more about the voice in my head than the conversations I've been reading (in this and other threads), but so often these threads read like infomercials to me. I'm a skimmer here on Aikiweb so I realize I miss a lot and that makes it hard to be very spot on to begin with, but I rarely read anything (on "it") that isn't vague or useless to people who aren't in the know already...apart from go out, find it, feel it and keep training it continually.
How much do you suppose these threads can reveal? (As opposed to entice with secrets). Is the enticement bad when it inspires folks to check out new information?

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 07-25-2009, 06:23 PM   #233
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
This is starting to sound like a Dan Brown novel.
Joep,

That is quite funny! However, I am glad you stated your critique of my post as such in that nothing could be further from the truth! I really like Ellis Amdur's book title, Hidden in plain sight quite well. To me it is the double meaning of the title which I love so much. I certainly hope, and do imagine that Ellis, himself thought this through completely. You see, there really is nothing hidden at all. It is, however ironic, clearly based upon where you look and if you have the capacity to see what is right in front of you. When it comes to the markings I speak of I mean they are really actual signs, you know like as in storefronts that tell you where to find O-Sensei's Aikido. When someone explained to me where to look, sure enough... there they were, all lit up for everyone to see. The truth is MOST PEOPLE ARE NOT LOOKING... and this is no different than when O-Sensei, himself was looking for those who could bring his Aikido forward.

...but I really would love to write a story using your general idea about how Aikido, hidden in plain sight (as it is not) might be rediscovered should it actually have been hidden for some secret reason and revealed in a controversial novel. I am sure it will get as furiously rejected by whatever Aikido version of "Rome" that there might be and denounced as heresy by the Aikido scholars and the almighty historians devoted to their own cover stories and press releases. Conversely, I am sure there won't be the press that the Da Vinci Code received. In any case I will have a good laugh at their expense.

...best in training to all.

.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 07-25-2009, 06:40 PM   #234
dps
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
How much do you suppose these threads can reveal?
A lot, as long as there is objective common reference points that everyone can understand. Regardless how much you agree with the definition, it is a starting point that most people are able to understand.

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
(As opposed to entice with secrets). Is the enticement bad when it inspires folks to check out new information?
I am not enticed by the explanation " It is a secret, I can show you" ( reminds of of sideshows at he county fair), I am enticed by an explanation that is openly discussed in seeking the truth.

David
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Old 07-25-2009, 06:50 PM   #235
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
I would like this thread to be less like this tv show:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZgTk6pReeM

and more like this tv show;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJRNkCWJl68

What is your definition of IT Shaun?

David
Well, David... I don't like TV, especially the spoon-fed, morally wounded, drivel proffered up by multi-national, agenda driven media and advertising companies, such as the two examples you put forward. However, the cigarette stuff is quite ironic to me. See, to me, cigarettes are like handguns in that cigarettes cause cancer in about the same way that handguns kill people - they don't. See cigarettes don't cause cancer, someone smoking them gives themselves cancer. In other words, stupid people die because they are too stupid to stop doing stupid things... to themselves. When it comes to this discussion, it becomes glaringly obvious when someone just can't see the forest or the trees because they haven't really ventured out of the city, where there are neither of any real consequence. In reading all of your posts, and as many of Eric's that I can stand reading some amount past the first few sentences it has become most obvious that you prefer the importance of constructing a proper argument (not arguing, mind you) rather than contributing anything of real substance or allowing anything substantive to sink down in and letting it rearrange your DNA or open your eyes enough to stop your mouth from formulating pointless chatter. This is not meant of a criticism of you personally, nor your actual understanding of the subject matter. Rather it is a condemnation of the style of the posts, which I am sure are put forth with the best of spirits and intentions.

With regards to this conversation, I liken the examples to what is often referred to in the IT industry as "PEBKAC" In other words, when asked what is wrong, the correct response is

Problem
Exists
Between
Keyboard
and
Chair

You don't like the discussion, and that is clear. You want it to be one way, when in fact, if it were that way, nothing would ever be understood on any foundational level, and the conversation would never move forward. It doesn't matter to me why you want it that way, because it will not ever be that way. See with many Aikidoka on the internet, like in IT circles... PEBKAC rules the day.

It is more than likely that the problem exists with the one whose two hands are found resting comfortably in your own pockets. Who might that be? I can only wonder... I am sure that both you and Eric might spend weeks deciding on models with which one could be 100% sure you were first talking about the same thing, and then weeks more philosophizing about if the hands were really in the pockets, and then months more rationalizing about the questionable ramifications of both having found out that it was one's own hands in one's own pockets, followed by years discussing the books written on the subject matter, followed by decades deciding whose books were more cogent, followed by the next generation's pondering about should the question even have been asked in the first place, or if the answering of it meant anything at all...

.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 07-25-2009, 07:10 PM   #236
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Sy Labthavikul wrote: View Post
A running back with the ball is deep at the 20, zoning in for the touchdown. The only person in his way is a bullet of a defensive back right behind him, who's got the running back in his sights and is closing the distance fast. The running back keeps his beeline for the end zone. The defender sees his opportunity and dives for the tackle, but the running back manages to evade it with a slight twist of his hips and runs on true for the 6. Is this "IT"? Is this aiki?
Definitely not! Not even close!

Quote:
Sy Labthavikul wrote: View Post
Chen Xiaowang of Chen village is balanced on one foot as another man pushes quite audibly on him. Chen Xiaowang stands his ground and doesn't budge. This is surely "IT" but is it aiki? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldH40uF_f28)
Definitely not Aiki! Not even close! However, I am most sure that is not the best he can do, as lowly old me, even with my poor, mostly unproven skills can do that with about 1/10th the effort the sifu seemed to be putting out in that clip. Very, very low level from what I have seen and quite low compared to what I could do almost 10 years ago.

Quote:
Sy Labthavikul wrote: View Post
Roy Dean is rolling with his BJJ teacher, Roy Harris. Their BJJ style is relaxed and wastes little energy. Dean is about to put Harris into an arm bar but doesn't quite have the right setup, as Harris keeps his arm bent and close to his centerline above his head; meanwhile, Harris grabs Dean's leg and puts painful pressure on Dean's ankle using the top of his head. Is this "IT"? Is this aiki? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RuXLocNAkg)
Definitely not Aiki, or IT! Not even close!

Quote:
Sy Labthavikul wrote: View Post
Mohammed Ali and James Toney use rope-a-dope to tire out their opponents, lying on the ropes and using their superior defense and stamina to take punishing blows without much damage, waiting for their opponent to tire and potshotting whenever an opening presents itself. Is this "IT"? Is this aiki?
Definitely not Aiki, or IT! Not even close!

Quote:
Sy Labthavikul wrote: View Post
A matador uses his red cape to lead a charging, enraged bull safely past him. Is this "IT"? Is this aiki?
Definitely not Aiki, or IT! Not even close!

Quote:
Sy Labthavikul wrote: View Post
Wing Tsun practitioners practice chi sau, sticky hands drills, using tactile sensitivity and ingrained instinctual motor responses to form bridges with their partner, sense motion and intention, and respond accordingly. Their bodies don't deviate much from the centerline. The punches come fast and intense. Is this "IT"? Is this aiki?
Definitely not Aiki! Not even close! However, I do think that properly training with this method may lead somewhat to a subset of IT

Quote:
Sy Labthavikul wrote: View Post
An old farmer who cannot weigh much more than 150 lbs has spent the majority of his life carrying heavy sacks of grain long distances around his farm and will continue to do so up until the day he dies. Is this "IT"? Is this "aiki"?
Definitely not Aiki, or IT! Not even close!

Quote:
Sy Labthavikul wrote: View Post
Taichichuan practitioners train in push hands, moving slowly and fluidly. They circle and spiral around each other, each seeking to unbalance the other. Is this "IT"? Is this aiki?
Definitely not Aiki! Not even close! However, I do think that properly training with this method may lead somewhat to a subset of IT

Quote:
Sy Labthavikul wrote: View Post
A cook is carrying a heavy pot of veal broth in his hands and has difficulty opening a heavy swinging door to get into the freezer. He leans his side up against the door, braces his feet, and pushes with his legs, popping open the door far enough to allow him to slip inside. Is this "IT"? Is this aiki?
Definitely not Aiki, or IT! Not even close! However the same demonstration could be done using both IT and Aiki, but someone who was watching would more than likely never be able to tell that the two things were done differently

Quote:
Sy Labthavikul wrote: View Post
A circus performer is forming the base of a human tower, the feet of his fellow performers planted firmly on each others shoulders. He is supporting close to 5 times his own bodyweight. Is this "IT"? Is this aiki?
Definitely not Aiki, or IT! Not even close!

Quote:
Sy Labthavikul wrote: View Post
I don't presume to know the answer to any of these questions,
Now that you have the answers to your questions, what will you do with them?
Quote:
Sy Labthavikul wrote: View Post
I'd just like examples of "IT" and aiki.
If you are looking for it, try Dan, Mike, Akuzawa Sensei, as they have all found agreement that they have IT. I would not disagree, and if interested in IT, would more than likely seek them out when the moment presented itself. As for Aiki, if you are referring to the Aiki of O-Sensei, well that is a horse of a different color...
Quote:
Sy Labthavikul wrote: View Post
Is one a method of obtaining the other?
Most definitely not!
Quote:
Sy Labthavikul wrote: View Post
Is it the only method?
See above!
Quote:
Sy Labthavikul wrote: View Post
Are they the same thing?
Again, see above
Quote:
Sy Labthavikul wrote: View Post
If not, can you have one and not the other?
Most definitely... and I would most certainly go and see Mike, or Akuzawa Sensei if you were interested in doing so.

...best in training to all.

.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 07-25-2009, 07:20 PM   #237
dps
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote: View Post
This is not meant of a criticism of you personally,
Of course not.

David
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Old 07-25-2009, 07:24 PM   #238
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Well, here's a snippet from the story of Ueshiba standing 'immoveable' against the push of Tenryu, the Sumo wrestler:

... I asked someone at my side who this person was. It was explained to me that he was the famous Tenryu who had withdrawn from the Sumo Wrestler's Association. I was then introduced to him. Finally, we ended up pitting our strength against each other. I sat down and said to Tenryu, "Please try to push me over. Push hard, there's no need to hold back." Since I knew the secret of Aikido, I could not be moved an inch.

I know how that's done and it's called "the secret of Aikido" by Ueshiba and Ueshiba has demonstrated it on film numerous times (along with related demos), as has Tohei, and others. Worse yet, these skills are known all over Asia by numerous people and they're always part of "ki" (as in "Ai-ki-do"), so I toss the ball back you to explain how we got so far off. Or did we?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
Thanks Mike, I love that story, too. However, I am sure that O-Sensei most certainly knew what the secret of his Aikido was, and as far as I know, neither you, nor Dan, nor Akuzawa Sensei ever really spent any time with anyone who actually also knew. I mean, if any of you did, then simply tell us who and when that was and we can have a very different conversation. Up until now, all we keep hearing is that you have all convinced the Aikido population, all whom have admitted that they don't have IT, that the IT that you have is the IT of Aikido. However, there isn't one Aikido Teacher who actually does have IT, who has come out and said that the IT that you are speaking of is the IT of Aikido. Demz Da Facts, and Dey are indisputable until we get word otherwise.

I would be the first one to get on a plane and join in on any of your seminars should that ever be confirmed to have taken place. Of course, as I have always stated, I wouldn't mind coming to see you all anyways, as I am most certainly open to learning anything confirmed as practical and real shared with the open spirit I have heard with which you all are training together. Until then, while it might be Aiki-dosa, Aiki-ho or even O-Sensei's Aikido, we just can't say... although you seemingly keep doing so to some extent. No real harm done, but it is making things take a little longer

...best in training to all.

.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 07-25-2009, 07:25 PM   #239
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Of course not.

David
Not even if you or others imagine it to be, but I will leave the imagining to others on the board who are most likely to already be doing so...



.

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Old 07-25-2009, 07:34 PM   #240
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
Shaun, now you've got me confused. Aren't you leading him astray with that advice as you have also said:
Joep,

I don't feel that I am leading anyone astray. What I simply stated is that if David wants to have a converstaion about the IT that Dan and the like are discussing that he go and train with one of them. As for my thoughts on whether the IT that they are discussing and the IT of Aikido are the same, I would say that they may or may not be. Feel free to read my other post on that... I would add that while these concepts overlap, I am quite sure there are also many differences. I know of several, and they occur on several different levels. However, I am sure that Dan and Mike and Akuzawa Sensei would all agree with what I just said, and might only disagree with that there may be something that they are not seeing when it comes to Aikido, as it may be hidden in plain sight to them as they are looking in the wrong direction...

Good to point that out though....

,,,best in training to all.

.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 07-25-2009, 07:38 PM   #241
lbb
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote: View Post
To me this quote sounds like it comes from someone who just wasn't happy that they weren't in on the joke...
.
I should have mentioned the name of the book so that you could be in on the joke yourself It's from the introduction to "The Doubter's Companion" by John Ralston Saul. His point was that when specialists and authorities (often self-proclaimed or appointed by one another) claim to own the definitions of terms, they control the dialogue despite the fact that they do not own the truth.
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Old 07-25-2009, 07:50 PM   #242
lbb
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote: View Post
This is not meant of a criticism of you personally, nor your actual understanding of the subject matter. Rather it is a condemnation of the style of the posts, which I am sure are put forth with the best of spirits and intentions.
Given what preceded this disclaimer, I have to wonder: is this the Aikiweb equivalent of the southerner's "Bless your heart"?
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Old 07-25-2009, 07:51 PM   #243
Mike Sigman
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Sy Labthavikul wrote: View Post
Is this "IT"? Is this aiki?

I don't presume to know the answer to any of these questions, and I'm not trying to cleverly construct some sort of argument with rhetorical questions. I'd just like examples of "IT" and aiki. Is one a method of obtaining the other? Is it the only method? Are they the same thing? If not, can you have one and not the other?
Hi Sy:

This is sorta why I asked what "IT" was, specifically, in an earlier post. The basis of "aiki" is what Tohei and others referred to as "ki strength" and what the Chinese would maybe call "qi" or "jin" (interchangeably, because it's an idiomatic usage). "Ki strength" involves a specialized strength skill/ability, hence Tohei and Ueshiba showing all those demos that do "immoveable" this and that. However, if you want to strengthen that power, you have to do various training exercises, including things like the Aiki Taiso, breathing exercises, stretching, etc., and the breathing component is a large factor in this type of strength.... hence the idea of "Kokyu" power, "breath power".

But notice that we're already up to two major components and we haven't really hit the idea of "IT" if you mean it as "aiki". "Aiki" is when you blend that type of power with incoming forces from Uke (preferably without resistance, martially, but you can make a lot of demos with kokyu power even if you just do immoveable stuff). If someone wants to argue that there is no way to do true "aikido" with resistance (this was a mainstay of Erick's a couple of years ago), I'd say they're just naive and aren't really thinking... or they don't really understand the topic.

So the essence of "Aiki" is still going to be that core strength, breath additive if you know how to do it and have it, and so on. In other words, until you define what you mean as "IT", I wouldn't want to get too involved or make assumptions about what your unspoken idea of "IT" is.

I would disagree with some of Shaun's replies to you about what "IT" is, BTW. The assumption is that Shaun knows all these things well enough to be an expert and I simply have no idea what he can do and can't do. The idea that he is better than Chen Xiaowang is startling news indeed; perhaps I should go to Shaun and learn from him.

Anyway, my point is that "IT" needs to be better defined. One of the problems with this conversation and some of the conversations in years past (there were some doozy assertions made on this forum a few years back) is that some people don't really know the topic very well and they make the assumption that no one knows any more than they do. I think this is the attitude that gets Aikido in general into so much trouble. Notice my earlier comment about how Tohei's knowledge was rejected 40 years ago largely due to ego and politics.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-25-2009, 07:53 PM   #244
dps
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Shaun Ravens wrote: View Post
This is not meant of a criticism of you personally, nor your actual understanding of the subject matter.
I am glad you agree that I know something about the subject matter.

David
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Old 07-25-2009, 07:59 PM   #245
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I should have mentioned the name of the book so that you could be in on the joke yourself It's from the introduction to "The Doubter's Companion" by John Ralston Saul. His point was that when specialists and authorities (often self-proclaimed or appointed by one another) claim to own the definitions of terms, they control the dialogue despite the fact that they do not own the truth.
Mary,

You might be surprised by just what I know, or better yet what is not needed to have been know to respond as I did in that post. My repugnant view of philosophy in terms of its usefulness is echoed in two parts

1. My Uncle is a quite well-known philospher, in his own right, and I was quite readily trained as such from a very early age. He was also a math genius as well as a child musical prodigy, too. As far as his great mind took him, and that was quite far, it did not prepare him for what life had queued up for him and thus he now is quite mad. You see, all the philosophy in the world just isn't enough to save even the brightest of minds. As in the case with my uncle and Socrates, alike, it does, often times condemn them...

2. casual search on a review of the author and book to which you have referred unveils this poignant ditty , to which I must concur, right up at the top of the list...

John Ralston Saul, one of Canada's leading political philosophers, has drawn an apt analogy in comparing himself to Socrates, but pointedly not to Plato, because he offers a great insight (which is essentially liberal in nature) into the Modern condition, but his personal political predilections (which are essentially Liberal in nature) blind him to the implications. Thus, he is an amusing gadfly, puncturing many myths and prejudices, but he backs off of several cows that are sacred to him, unwilling to apply the rigor of his own argument, and he presents no general program or solution to the problems he perceptively delineates, perhaps because such a program would jibe so closely with the conservative agenda.


So, perhaps the joke is not on me, but is your source and its author, instead. I mean, he is from Canada, so what did we really expect. Do you have any French or German philosophers you might care to reference? What I mean is... given their roles in WWll, we can all see where their mindful musings met the road...

...best in training to all.

.

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Old 07-25-2009, 08:00 PM   #246
dps
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Shaun Ravens wrote: View Post
What I simply stated is that if David wants to have a converstaion about the IT that Dan and the like are discussing that he go and train with one of them.
.
Nope, you got it wrong.

David
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Old 07-25-2009, 08:01 PM   #247
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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David Skaggs wrote: View Post
I am glad you agree that I know something about the subject matter.

David
Well, to be honest... I didn't say that, either...



I mean, how could I really know? Maybe you could just be playing dumb on TV, err... the internet.

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Old 07-25-2009, 08:07 PM   #248
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Given what preceded this disclaimer, I have to wonder: is this the Aikiweb equivalent of the southerner's "Bless your heart"?
ECHO... Echo... echo... echo... I mean I am not claiming any psychic abilities here, but I knew who would say something to that effect, just didn't expect to be proven correct that quickly...

In any case, and especially this one, I can tell you Mary... you would not be correct.

.

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Old 07-25-2009, 08:08 PM   #249
Erick Mead
 
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Re: What is IT?

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Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
Cool, but what does the shear add to the equation (pun intended)?
Shear. Shear is hard to "see." When a material completely fails in compression or in tension it almost always fails first in a local shear from some isolated discontinuity or local weakness. That then cascades into linear stress failure because the material is at its elastic limit, and th shear failure is the proverbial straw. In buckling the shear is all that is necessary to cause structural failure, becasue there is no "reserve" structure. See here. http://www.nbcolympics.com/weightlif...id=206808.html That man's elbow failed in a buckling shear.

Well, the fact is that all the "forms" of aiki taiso follow the shapes of and implement 3D shear dynamics. Their spiral form follows the same shapes as wingtip vortices of aerodynmaic lift -- also a phenomenon manipulating shear forces. The Aiki Taiso are adapted to express it, and structurally, endure it, and manipulate it and the waza are set piece episodes in which they can be shown linearly for the uninitiated. They can be shown in any other number of forms, if the form and structure are BOTH correct to express them. One has to be able to "see" or feel shear first, however, which is NOT easy -- in part because our bodies take that sense from us by formulating a reflexive reaction well before making it available to conscious response.

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
No can do. Aiki requires the force input of another human being.
Now we are getting somewhere. The spinal reflexes that control involuntary flexion and extension are uniquely sensitive to shear loading - because every structure is weakest in shear. Thus, by applying shear loading (nikkyo, sankyo grossly -- tekubifuri, furitama, much more subtly) one both attacks the weakest structural elements AND also triggers the body's protective mechanisms designed to shield those structures from excessive shear loading -- which can be exploited in "following the failure" if moving in concert with the natural form that such reflexive action takes long before conscious reaction can correct the situation.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 07-25-2009, 08:12 PM   #250
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Nope, you got it wrong.

David
...and for my last post of the evening, (unless Mike or Dan chime back in..)

David,

Would you please clarify if I got IT wrong, or did I get it wrong? If it was IT I got wrong, I guess you made a funny. If you are merely implying that I got it wrong, then I guess expounding upon your point would help to illustrate it for anyone wanting to actually understand you, outside of you and Mary, that is...

...nighty night.

.

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