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Old 07-24-2009, 01:17 PM   #176
jss
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Re: What is IT?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
My definition;
Latent abilities in everyone, from childbirth, that is developed (bar disease or physical impairment) to a certain degree during the growth process. The development of these abilities can be enhanced beyond normal by physical activities that require them or specific exercises designed to. The use of this physical ability is more outwardly noticed by the lack of use of external muscular strength. It is the efficient use of the internal physical structure and musculature of the body."
So basically you're saying that it's the skill (that's your first two sentences, btw) of efficient use of the internal physical structure and musculature of the body, more outwardly noticed by the lack of use of external muscular strength.

Questions:
What kind of efficiency are we talking about? Calories per throw?
What internal physical structure? Bones? Something else?
How do the internal physical structure and musculature of the body interact? What is it about the skillful use of the combination of these two that produces such efficiency?
If you're not using external musculature strength, where is the power coming from?
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Old 07-24-2009, 01:26 PM   #177
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Re: What is IT?

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Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
So basically you're saying that it's the skill (that's your first two sentences, btw) of efficient use of the internal physical structure and musculature of the body, more outwardly noticed by the lack of use of external muscular strength.
Actually I said physical ability and it was my last two sentences.
Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post

My definition;
The use of this physical ability is more outwardly noticed by the lack of use of external muscular strength. It is the efficient use of the internal physical structure and musculature of the body. "

David
What is your definition?

David
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Old 07-24-2009, 01:28 PM   #178
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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David Skaggs wrote: View Post
What is your definition of it?
To make the most use as possible of the ground (to push from) or your own weight (to weigh something down). How to do this is quite counter-intuitive, so you have to be shown. Then you can start rewiring your body (coordination and conditioning), which is another reason you can't figure this out for yourself. You need a certain amount of skill to see the implications. A person may discover one tiny element by himself, but lacking the minimum amount of skill and more importantly an overview of where it might lead to, he'll just say "Cool." and move on.

When you have developed some skill, you can begin exploring the cool stuff you can do that's not possible with normal strength, such as being unthrowable, unlockable, using uke's force to have him throw himself (=aiki), generating tremendous amounts of power without wind-up, etc.
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Old 07-24-2009, 01:29 PM   #179
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Re: What is IT?

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
So basically you're saying that it's the skill (that's your first two sentences, btw) of efficient use of the internal physical structure and musculature of the body, more outwardly noticed by the lack of use of external muscular strength.
Good. Down to basics. What is 'external muscular strength'? I will state my definition, if you would be so kind.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 07-24-2009, 01:30 PM   #180
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Re: What is IT?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post

My definition;
Latent abilities in everyone, from childbirth, that is developed (bar disease or physical impairment) to a certain degree during the growth process. The development of these abilities can be enhanced beyond normal by physical activities that require them or specific exercises designed to. The use of this physical ability is more outwardly noticed by the lack of use of external muscular strength. It is the efficient use of the internal physical structure and musculature of the body. "
While there is a certain level of "intrinsic energy" (I'm not going to define that further, but I'll tell you that it refers to something tangible, not some etheric idea of "energy"), the main thing you should remember is the old saying that goes something like this:
"These skills are not intuitive; they must be learned". That pretty much stymies your definition, but the point is that the old trope about everyone's opinions being valid really doesn't work. There are set parameters and definitions of these skills. Ueshiba was validating his knowledge of the definitions by the references he made in his douka, etc., so he was well aware that he couldn't just assign arbitrary definitions.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-24-2009, 01:36 PM   #181
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Re: What is IT?

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David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Actually I said physical ability and it was my last two sentences.
What I meant was that your first two sentences would make a decent definition of 'skill'. (But never mind, not that important.)
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Old 07-24-2009, 01:39 PM   #182
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Re: What is IT?

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Good. Down to basics. What is 'external muscular strength'? I will state my definition, if you would be so kind.
Hold on a minute, Erick. As far as I know, nobody I know of has vouched that you can demonstrate these skills; Joep has, to my knowledge, some level of ability with these skills. I.e., you're making an assumption for us that you also have these skills and therefore your "definitions" are as valid as Joep's. I don't think your opinions are going to carry much weight until someone knowledgeable in these skills agrees that you have a legitimate grasp of the subject. Based on your theories and what you're writing (and trust me, I have enough of a background in the physical sciences to follow what you've asserted), I don't think you do have a grasp of the subject. Maybe I'm wrong.... but that remains to be seen. Meantime the rest of us have been demonstrating what we can do or know (including Joep), so why not ante-up before you make the assumed equivalency of Joep's skills and your skills?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-24-2009, 01:46 PM   #183
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Re: What is IT?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
the main thing you should remember is the old saying that goes something like this:
"These skills are not intuitive; they must be learned".
Who said that?

What is your defiintion?

David
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Old 07-24-2009, 01:50 PM   #184
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Erick, "What is typically believed?" is fairly well represented by David.

I'm not sure how to say this politely. So I'll try a very hypothetical approach. I wonder what would happen to David's opinion if David were to have seen someone take Yamada sensei's nikkyo and just clearly jam the stink out of it say three times in a row - while politely bending their knees and tapping to help demonstrate. Or, if David were to see someone doing kokyu tanden ho with Mary Heiny sensei and just throw her backwards off of her knees - and then switch to grabbing her forearms to keep her from actually falling over. And then I further wonder what David might think if he found out that the uke was a150 pound aikido sandan who hadn't met Dan Harden yet. And let's say that maybe that sandan could not resist ANYTHING Dan wanted to do. Would David still hold on so tightly to his beliefs? I actually kind of think he might.
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Old 07-24-2009, 01:59 PM   #185
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Re: What is IT?

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David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Who said that?
Among others, Yang Cheng Fu.
Quote:
What is your defiintion?
My definition of what? I'm not going to define "It" or "This stuff" because you need to specify exactly what you're trying to define. As I've noted, there are some large areas of the total skills that seem to be missed by most people on this forum, so far, so you're more than likely asking me for a partial definition of some whole thing. I did a post on this forum long ago in which I used some of the physical parameters to define/delineate the range of these skills; somebody good at forum searching (I'm not good) can probably find it. That's one type of definition and it's probably more what should be discussed when more people get on board. For the more limited types of definition, you need to be more specific for what you'd like defined.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-24-2009, 02:00 PM   #186
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

I'm reminded of a book I once read...

"Today our civilization is not slumbering in unconscious self-confidence. Rather it resembles the wounded and confused animal of the eighteenth century. We are again the prisoners of scholastic rhetoric, which has blocked useful public communications by dividing our language up into thousands of closed specialist dialects. The result is the disappearance of almost any public language that could have a real impact on structures and actions. Instead we have an illusion of unlimited oral communications which are, in practical terms, a vast and murmuring silence."
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Old 07-24-2009, 02:16 PM   #187
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Re: What is IT?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
[snip] I did a post on this forum long ago in which I used some of the physical parameters to define/delineate the range of these skills;
[/snip]
FWIW

Mike Sigman
I thought this< was an interesting one. But another post comes to mind (looking...)

FWIW

Mary, that was good. Your other (previous) post was poignant and touching. Thanks for sharing.
Josh
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Old 07-24-2009, 02:22 PM   #188
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Re: What is IT?

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Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
I thought this< was an interesting one. But another post comes to mind (looking...)
Well, that was a post where I was poking a little bit of fun at Cady, who had previously told me that she could move me around, etc., by something like "getting inside me", but those criteria I mentioned in that post are a partial list of the things I was talking about:
Quote:
Greatly enhanced personal strength, when done correctly and following a certain path;

The ability to put 2 fingers on top of a polished knife blade and lift up the knife;

Extraordinarily powerful "fa jin" and a number of tangents to that skill;

Difficult-to-puncture skin;

The ability to manipulate pressure pulses within the body;
There's another post somewhere that is more comprehensive than that one and mentions several other things.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 07-24-2009, 03:13 PM   #189
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

I am a fan of this quote from Mike:
There are essentially two things that comprise ki/qi: mental manipulation of force paths and the development of a facial-structure thingamabob that is fairly complex but which involves breathing exercises, stretches, etc. Those would, in essence, be part of the "baseline skills".

The thing is, before I met Dan, I could do a lot of things that seemed to be that kind of thing - but they were much more external than I had realized at the time - probably because "it has to be felt".

Rob
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Old 07-24-2009, 03:25 PM   #190
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Re: What is IT?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
What is 'external muscular strength'?
Erick, it seems you're asking me to define a term from David's definition. I think you'd better ask David.
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Old 07-24-2009, 03:29 PM   #191
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
I am a fan of this quote from Mike:
There are essentially two things that comprise ki/qi: mental manipulation of force paths and the development of a facial-structure thingamabob that is fairly complex but which involves breathing exercises, stretches, etc. Those would, in essence, be part of the "baseline skills".

The thing is, before I met Dan, I could do a lot of things that seemed to be that kind of thing - but they were much more external than I had realized at the time - probably because "it has to be felt".
And to be fair, Tohei's "ki tests" and "breathing techniques" address those essential two things, to certain degrees. So none of this is really new, in one sense, although the paucity of explanations did a lot to stop people then and now from knowing exactly what was meant.

In the same sense, these discussions about ki, kokyu, jin, "aiki", Tenchijin, etc., etc., all discuss the same essential two issues... but again only to certain degrees. In other words, I've been trying to indicate that everyone needs to understand that there's more to it and today's stances may turn out to be just as embarrassing tomorrow as some of yesterday's stances are embarrassing today. Recognizing that, maybe we'll all be cautious and balanced in what we're trying to say.

Best.

Mike
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Old 07-24-2009, 03:41 PM   #192
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Re: What is IT?

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Hold on a minute, Erick. As far as I know, nobody I know of has vouched ...
Well, if vouching matters, then presumably the objective version of matters by a vouchee ought presumably be the best we can find.

Let's test that hypothesis, shall we?

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 07-24-2009, 03:44 PM   #193
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Re: What is IT?

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Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
Erick, it seems you're asking me to define a term from David's definition. I think you'd better ask David.
You used it, what do YOU mean by it? He may mean something different, and that would be interesting to know. When you want I'll give you mine, but I am more interested in developing everyone's individual lines of thought more thoroughly, to avoid misunderstandings or to resolve some of them if possible..

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 07-24-2009, 03:50 PM   #194
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Re: What is IT?

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
You used it, what do YOU mean by it?
In post #176 I said:
Quote:
myself wrote:
So basically you're saying that it's the skill (that's your first two sentences, btw) of efficient use of the internal physical structure and musculature of the body, more outwardly noticed by the lack of use of external muscular strength.
<snip>
If you're not using external musculature strength, where is the power coming from?
I don't see how I need to assign any meaning to "external muscular strength" to be able to say that.
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Old 07-24-2009, 04:16 PM   #195
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
Erick, "What is typically believed?" is fairly well represented by David.

I'm not sure how to say this politely. ... And let's say that maybe that sandan could not resist ANYTHING Dan wanted to do. Would David still hold on so tightly to his beliefs? I actually kind of think he might.
Fair and diplomatic answer. Would your hypothetical sandan say the same of (from personal experience) a certain shihan, say, near to the USAF Academy? Or of a certain rokudan in the southerly portion of this state, near a certain famous mouse? That would be interesting to know -- or if not, to know that also.

Now, more to the point, what is "it" that is different? If I may suggest try to be concrete, and as far as I am concerned, direct physical analogy is as good as mechanical lingo. If I may suggest, go at it positively, if you have a model of action in mind, or negatively, if there are models of action you know you can dispose of, and say why. To be clear, I am really just trying to help think through the variety of perspectives, very carefully, without engaging any personality issue at all.. That is not what it is about.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 07-24-2009, 04:23 PM   #196
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Re: What is IT?

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Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
I don't see how I need to assign any meaning to "external muscular strength" to be able to say that.
Plainly you don't, you are free to say what you like. I just wondered if you have a given meaning in mind when you might use it yourself, or if you don't use that phrase in this context, why not?

This issue really does matter, in my view, because there is a definite anatomical way to isolate what is "typically believed" (per Rob) to be "external muscular strength" from something else, which is not.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 07-24-2009, 04:44 PM   #197
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Re: What is IT?

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
I just wondered if you have a given meaning in mind when you might use it yourself, or if you don't use that phrase in this context, why not?
I would not use the phrase in any context. "External muscular strength" implies that there is something like "internal muscular strength". The only way I can parse that is to think of the former as mobilizing muscle use and the latter as stabilizing muscle use. And that lands us nicely in this thread starting from post #74, which just happens to be posted by David Skaggs. As you can read there, it works for me as an image, but I would not use it in a definition of 'it'.
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Old 07-24-2009, 04:53 PM   #198
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Re: What is IT?

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
I would not use the phrase in any context. "External muscular strength" implies that there is something like "internal muscular strength". The only way I can parse that is to think of the former as mobilizing muscle use and the latter as stabilizing muscle use. And that lands us nicely in this thread starting from post #74, which just happens to be posted by David Skaggs. As you can read there, it works for me as an image, but I would not use it in a definition of 'it'.
To be clear that definition and mine are simplified definitions of a much more complicated definition involving the interaction of all the systems of the human body.

David
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Old 07-24-2009, 04:57 PM   #199
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Re: What is IT?

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Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
What I meant was that your first two sentences would make a decent definition of 'skill'. (But never mind, not that important.)
Okay, I understand.

I did not use the term 'skill to be learned' because to me that means acquiring something we do not have. I use the term " ability to develop" because I believe we already have the ability.

David
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Old 07-24-2009, 05:04 PM   #200
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Re: What is IT?

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David Skaggs wrote: View Post
To be clear that definition and mine are simplified definitions of a much more complicated definition involving the interaction of all the systems of the human body.
All systems of the human body? That seems a bit vague and all-encompassing. Wikipedia produces the following list:
* Circulatory system
* Digestive System
* Endocrine system
* Integumentary system
* Immune system
* Lymphatic system
* Musculoskeletal system
* Muscular system
* Nervous system
* Reproductive system
* Respiratory system
* Skeletal system
* Urinary system
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