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Old 07-23-2009, 03:46 PM   #151
DH
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Why do you suppose they might've been meant to be hidden?
Just within the aiki lineage you have:
Sagawa openly stating that Takeda told him not to teach it openly. He also stated a reason never to teach foreigners "They are already big and it would give them a great advantage."
Tokimune Takeda then stated he was told only to teach one or two the true techniques.
Choosing only a few to pour yourself into is a centuries old saying in Koryu as well.
Read between the lines about what that is really telling you!

Heres a little ditty about stealing knowledge and about what might have been offered openly- since we are talking about hidden in plain site.
One teacher from one branch of DR went to Tokimune to learn the heart of aiki. Tokimune showed him?... solo waza and breath methods. Guy brings them back to his branch. No one wants to do them. They want to do the waza. Guy goes back to Tokimune and tells him that. Tokimune says "Yeah, no one here wants to do them either. They just want to do techniques!!"
Budo is a funny thing.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 07-23-2009, 05:14 PM   #152
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Just within the aiki lineage you have:
Sagawa openly stating that Takeda told him not to teach it openly. He also stated a reason never to teach foreigners "They are already big and it would give them a great advantage."
Tokimune Takeda then stated he was told only to teach one or two the true techniques.
Choosing only a few to pour yourself into is a centuries old saying in Koryu as well.
Read between the lines about what that is really telling you!

Heres a little ditty about stealing knowledge and about what might have been offered openly- since we are talking about hidden in plain site.
One teacher from one branch of DR went to Tokimune to learn the heart of aiki. Tokimune showed him?... solo waza and breath methods. Guy brings them back to his branch. No one wants to do them. They want to do the waza. Guy goes back to Tokimune and tells him that. Tokimune says "Yeah, no one here wants to do them either. They just want to do techniques!!"
Budo is a funny thing.
Cheers
Dan
Hey Dan!
That does make sense for why O Sensei might not have taught it overtly. So do you think it's probably just for the tradition's sake that he would have done that? I can certainly understand the appeal to a sort of trickle-down theory in martial arts where the headmaster would focus hard on developing a student or two and then let them pass on what they were picking up to their own focus-groups, and so on. Based on what Mike was saying about teaching in graspable steps, it seems to make added sense.
While I really love explicit instruction for the ability to pinpoint concrete lessons, I also really love the environment-based approach for putting the impetus of learning almost entirely on the student, reinforcing self-driven and, possibly, more spontaneous learning moments. Is there any evidence that this might also play a role, or played a role in teaching things like aiki? Personally I believe in both at the same time, but I know many people tend to favor one or the other.
Take care!
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 07-23-2009, 09:51 PM   #153
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Here is something I was wondering about regarding other aspects of this 'partial teaching':
Nevermind the fact that the core power building methods of aiki are not shown...what I find almost unbelievable is:
1) the core of what 'it' is you are actually studying to be/do is not made clear from the outset. The origins and ultimate purposes of the techniques (Divine or not?) you do are not explained. It is up to you to figure it out.
2) body changes that these things bring on are not generally carefully monitored or guided. you are kind of then on a course of self study. sink or swim. how much damage can you do to yourself doing these things incorrectly?

For the non-inner student..There is no hand holding.
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Old 07-23-2009, 11:20 PM   #154
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
Here is something I was wondering about regarding other aspects of this 'partial teaching':
Nevermind the fact that the core power building methods of aiki are not shown...what I find almost unbelievable is:
1) the core of what 'it' is you are actually studying to be/do is not made clear from the outset. The origins and ultimate purposes of the techniques (Divine or not?) you do are not explained. It is up to you to figure it out.
You are assuming that there are many common referents to use in explanation for most people to understand -- which is not the case. Shear mechanics, vortices, are among the least well-comprehended classical mechanics we know. Even long known uses of vortex/shear mechanics are surprising, and still poorly understood.

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
2) body changes that these things bring on are not generally carefully monitored or guided. you are kind of then on a course of self study. sink or swim. how much damage can you do to yourself doing these things incorrectly?
Most every structure is weaker in shear and most weak in torsional shear. It is a significant reason why tornadoes are so destructive, not just because of the linear force of wind but because of the large and intense aerodynamic shear field they create. Anything loaded in shear can be damaged fairly easily. There are good reasons on this basis alone to wait to introduce this kind of thing until people start to see it for themselves. The principle of shifting centers in aiki means that the shear center can easily end up in places were it can do damage you if you are not prepared to control or dampen it.

FWIW.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 07-24-2009, 04:10 AM   #155
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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If it wasn't something that O'Sensei was teaching then he did not want it passed on and it was not meant to be a part of Aikido. Therefore it is not missing from Aikido and there is no need to discuss the lack of it or reintroduce something that was never meant to be.
David
I completely reject that, but I am not important. What is important is all of -YOU- who are now rejecting that idea as well...one, after another...after another...once YOU feel "IT."
Has it crossed anyone's mind that they should be taking note of just who is converting to training "IT?"

Here are two questions that have been posted before that get ignored because they remain the unanswerable questions to all the detractors who debate "IT" on the net.

"IT"
1. That the collected body of people who have gone to train with Mike, Ark, Ushiro, or me to feel "IT" have simply stopped debating that "IT" is the essence of the aiki arts? How'd that happen?
2. How could someone take a body of knowledge and show it to aikido teachers; 6th dans, 5th dans, 4th dans etc. from widely different branches and have the collected whole, all walk away stating "IT" is the essence of aiki. How would that even be possible were "IT" not the defining truth to their Aikido as they know it?
How can you explain hundreds of people-many of whom are teachers -being exposed to "IT" and all arriving at the same conclusion:
That "IT" actually is thee single most powerful aspect of aikido and "IT" is missing from aikido as "these people" know it. Please note I didn't state as "you" know it-I said as "these people" know their aikido to be.
What is getting troubling for any potential detractors is:
a) just how many of "these people" there are now
b) just who "these people" are turning out to be!


IMO, "IT" only remains controversial because "IT" is so damn defining that the only place left -to- debate "IT" is on the net! Aikido, on the whole, has so far failed to come up with any teacher who can debate the value of "IT" anymore...in person. If they have "IT"-they already do "IT" to some degree. If they don't have "IT"-for some inexplicable reason they start to train "IT" on the spot and want "IT"!!

All that aside I continue to hope we can be civil in discussing "IT"- it's only budo, people. There's no reason we can't disagree but still all be civil. Particularly since people who might never have met are now out their training "IT" and fast becoming friends -all because of the existance of... "IT"

Cheers
Dan
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Old 07-24-2009, 06:02 AM   #156
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
because Ueshiba wasn't really showing those skills to the Uchi Deshi.
Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
If it wasn't something that O'Sensei was teaching then he did not want it passed on and it was not meant to be a part of Aikido. Therefore it is not missing from Aikido and there is no need to discuss the lack of it or reintroduce something that was never meant to be.

David
Or it was important to Aikido, O'Sensei was showing his deshi these skills, O'Sensei was satisfied they knew it and allowed them to go teach. He had every opportunity to guide them along their path of growth after they began to teach.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
How can you explain hundreds of people-many of whom are teachers -being exposed to "IT" and all arriving at the same conclusion:
Okay, you personally know hundreds of people who don't have it, compared to at least 1.5 million who are practicing Aikido, that is not a high percentage.

David
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Old 07-24-2009, 07:24 AM   #157
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Or it was important to Aikido, O'Sensei was showing his deshi these skills, O'Sensei was satisfied they knew it and allowed them to go teach. He had every opportunity to guide them along their path of growth after they began to teach.
David, I'm curious -- what has given you the impression that the above in any way, shape or form represents the standard pedagogy that took place in Hombu dojo between Ueshiba and his deshi?

Taikyoku Mind & Body
http://taikyokumindandbody.com
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Old 07-24-2009, 08:02 AM   #158
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Or it was important to Aikido, O'Sensei was showing his deshi these skills, O'Sensei was satisfied they knew it and allowed them to go teach.
Then you should have no trouble providing some youtube clips of a number of deshi in which they demonstrate these skills, no?
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Old 07-24-2009, 08:15 AM   #159
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Or it was important to Aikido, O'Sensei was showing his deshi these skills, O'Sensei was satisfied they knew it and allowed them to go teach. He had every opportunity to guide them along their path of growth after they began to teach.
Hello David
Actually many of the post war deshi got little hands on time training with Osensei -successively less as time wore on-and were sent out to teach with as little as six years under their belt. You really need to check your history.

Quote:
Okay, you personally know hundreds of people who don't have it, compared to at least 1.5 million who are practicing Aikido, that is not a high percentage.
Well sir, you really shouldn't dismiss the opinion of so many teachers of aikido so easily. Well you can but it's tenuous to do so.
Lets take some of these teachers-say a couple of 6th dans- as people who have trained for decades with all manner of teachers in and out of Japan- for them to openly state this is the some of the finest skill they have ever felt means more than you are affording it. I was suggesting you take the collective whole, of all of these teachers experiences and examine the consistency of their comparative experiences. I think that is worthy question to put out there.
For these teachers to consistently embrace "IT" to the point that it is altering their practice and by all accounts improving their aikido makes a statement worth other practitioners consideration.
In other words it is not just speaking of "their" personal aikido, but their opinion of everyone each of them has touched, trained under, or with, for decades. It is a declarative statement that they are training in it at all.

You are in Ohio. I go there occasionally. Who do you know who has it? I'd like to check them out.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 07-24-2009, 09:23 AM   #160
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Dan Harden wrote:

Quote:
Sagawa openly stating that Takeda told him not to teach it openly. He also stated a reason never to teach foreigners "They are already big and it would give them a great advantage."
The "he" in this would be Sagawa, something that seems to have been passed down among some of his most prominent successors. Takeda, on the other hand, in 1903, taught Charles Perry Daito-ryu. As written in John Steven's, Aikido: The Way of Harmony, Perry demanded a conductor check the ticket of the shabbily dressed little Japanese man in the first class compartment. Sokaku, offended, confronted Perry, who "brandished his fists." Sokaku put him in a double yonkyo, dropping him to his knees and then throwing him to the end of the car. Perry apologized and asked to learn something of the art. Does this not bespeak well of Takeda? Unlike many of his successors, he was not racist in his teaching - if someone wanted to learn, he taught.

Perry was buried in Yokohama. An acquaintance of mine, very close with his research, tried to track down Perry, and did find his landlady in Yokohama. If you are inclined to do a google search, you will find a very odd bit of serendipity. A Professor Charles E. Perry, in 1959, was beaten to death by two drunken Japanese students. Prof Perry worked at the Daito Cultural Center of St. Paul's University in Tokyo. However, Prof Perry was 51. Who knows, he might have been the elder Perry's son or grandson. Kind of an eerie coincidence, nonetheless.

Best
Ellis Amdur

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Old 07-24-2009, 09:32 AM   #161
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
... All that aside I continue to hope we can be civil in discussing "IT"- .... There's no reason we can't disagree but still all be civil.
Objective disagreements can be civil, but that requires objective terms to argue with. Without them, we are left only to argue with conflicting subjective terms, which devolves to conflicting personal histories and perspective, which ... devolves to personal conflicts. As predictable as sunset.

The first objective term to argue is in defining "IT."

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 07-24-2009, 09:49 AM   #162
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Objective disagreements can be civil, but that requires objective terms to argue with. Without them, we are left only to argue with conflicting subjective terms, which devolves to conflicting personal histories and perspective, which ... devolves to personal conflicts. As predictable as sunset.

The first objective term to argue is in defining "IT."
Or just meeting Dan, or Mike, etc...

"My dear Kepler, what would you say of the learned here, who, replete with the pertinacity of the asp, have steadfastly refused to cast a glance through the telescope? What shall we make of this? Shall we laugh, or shall we cry?"
--Letter from Galileo Galilei to Johannes Kepler
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Old 07-24-2009, 10:09 AM   #163
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Objective disagreements can be civil, but that requires objective terms to argue with. Without them, we are left only to argue with conflicting subjective terms, which devolves to conflicting personal histories and perspective, which ... devolves to personal conflicts. As predictable as sunset.

The first objective term to argue is in defining "IT."
Hello Eric
I think you left out the part of my post where I talked about every...single...internet debater changing their minds about what "IT" is and what they though "IT" was and what they thought they knew- almost instantaneously upon feeling "IT."
This to include every teacher of martial arts I have met who upon feeling "IT" asked me to show them how to do "IT."
That's a very interesting statement to even be able to make.
Again it begs the question:
How did we manage to get hundreds of aikidoka; including senior teachers (who have felt the best in the world) to want to train "it" if they didn't feel "it" was thee "IT" that has been missing in Aikido? And then to state it is drastically improving their Aikido?
I grant you they went beyond stating it was missing in their own aikido and expanded that to state it is thee essence OF Aikido, but I think its reasonable to state they have the experience to make that judgement.
I think Mr. Scaggs dissmissal of these teachers collective efforts and ability to judge after decades in the art, fails at face value. And it leaves the question open and as yet unanswered- as it always does.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 07-24-2009 at 10:18 AM.
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Old 07-24-2009, 10:18 AM   #164
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
Then you should have no trouble providing some youtube clips of a number of deshi in which they demonstrate these skills, no?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROXaswf5OWo

Nariyama Sensei is a deshi of Tomiki Sensei who was a deshi of O'Sensei
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PL9hQ3yuTaA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMia4...x=0&playnext=1


Heiny Sensei studied at Hombu Dojo from 1968 to 1973
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMia4...x=0&playnext=1
any of her Aikido - Principles and Techniques 1-6

David

Last edited by dps : 07-24-2009 at 10:28 AM.
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Old 07-24-2009, 10:22 AM   #165
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Sagawa openly stating that Takeda told him not to teach it openly. He also stated a reason never to teach foreigners "They are already big and it would give them a great advantage."
Ironically enough Sagawa seems to have had at least one female foreign student so perhaps that only applied to men?

Random thoughts,
Rennis Buchner
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Old 07-24-2009, 10:23 AM   #166
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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You are in Ohio. I go there occasionally. Who do you know who has it? I'd like to check them out.
Cheers
Dan
I would recommend you go to New York to check out Yoshimitsu Yamada Sensei.

David
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Old 07-24-2009, 10:31 AM   #167
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
Or just meeting Dan, or Mike, etc...

"My dear Kepler, what would you say of the learned here, who, replete with the pertinacity of the asp, have steadfastly refused to cast a glance through the telescope? What shall we make of this? Shall we laugh, or shall we cry?"
--Letter from Galileo Galilei to Johannes Kepler
Have you inventoried my astronomical locker ?

... And yet, it was Kepler's orbital laws that got men back and forth to the moon. Kepler, who relied on Brahe's meticulous observational record and geometry, was correct about elliptical orbital mechanics and the tidal influence of the moon. Galileo, with his telescopic "direct knowledge" and assertion of the "perfection" of circular motion, was wrong. Galileo's story gets better press, but Kepler's mechanics is what gets used.

Sometimes, complete observation needs both immediacy, as well as a length of perspective and remove from the immediacy, in order to see the whole, and thus to make certain practical uses of it. Those are simple objective cautions about how to find the truth, which is never one-sided -- on which a useful discussion can be had.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 07-24-2009, 11:05 AM   #168
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hello Eric
I think you left out the part of my post where I talked about every...single...internet debater changing their minds about what "IT" is and what they though "IT" was and what they thought they knew- almost instantaneously upon feeling "IT."
As I said, I am attempting to remove ... or at least distance the issue from persons. Please take the following comments in that light. It is not meant to disregard the persuasiveness of these kinds of argument but to illustrate that they are just not objective -- not wrong, not ineffective -- but based on feeling (often completely legitimate feeling). They address only personal feelings or ways of rhetorically persuading about "IT", but not objective facts on what or how "it" is or should be employed. We tend therefore to end up not arguing about "IT", objectively, if we are only arguing about what we or other people feel about "it."

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Again it begs the question: ...
... which is an (often very) persuasive rhetoric of feeling (pathos), but a fallacy of objectively reasoned argument (logos).

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
How did we manage to get hundreds of aikidoka; including senior teachers (who have felt the best in the world) to want to train "it" if they didn't feel "it" was thee "IT" that has been missing in Aikido? And then to state it is drastically improving their Aikido?
Again, "4 out of 5 dentists surveyed..." compels a feeling that one ought to agree, but logically, is an objective fallacy (ad populum). It is also close to the "No true Scotsman" fallacy.

In other words, these kinds of arguments often compel the heart and perhaps correctly in a given case -- but leave the reason unsatisfied. If we are to propose constructive changes to an objective practice, I would prefer to reason together about what is lacking and how those changes should be made, rather than how we all feel about it (good or bad, for or against).

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I think Mr. Scaggs dissmissal of these teachers collective efforts and ability to judge after decades in the art, fails at face value. And it leaves the question open and as yet unanswered- as it always does.
Which question?

No one here is incapable of good written communication. I propose we each, in our own way, answer this question, as objectively as we are able:

"What is 'IT'?"

Then we can comment on our similarities or differences and the possible reasons for them. I have done so, and I can go on at length, but I think things are better served toward meaningful discussion, by others doing so in turn. Or, take mine apart, constructive criticism, on an objective basis, is gladly invited -- but I learn more by having to explain things than by having them explained. YMMV.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 07-24-2009, 11:30 AM   #169
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

David, good luck in your training.

Eric, I do not disagree - I just think that you only needed to look "through the telescope" to know there is something different than what is typically believed.

Rob
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Old 07-24-2009, 11:33 AM   #170
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What is IT?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
No one here is incapable of good written communication. I propose we each, in our own way, answer this question, as objectively as we are able:

"What is 'IT'?"


Then we can comment on our similarities or differences and the possible reasons for them. I have done so, and I can go on at length, but I think things are better served toward meaningful discussion, by others doing so in turn. Or, take mine apart, constructive criticism, on an objective basis, is gladly invited -- but I learn more by having to explain things than by having them explained. YMMV.


My definition;
Latent abilities in everyone, from childbirth, that is developed (bar disease or physical impairment) to a certain degree during the growth process. The development of these abilities can be enhanced beyond normal by physical activities that require them or specific exercises designed to. The use of this physical ability is more outwardly noticed by the lack of use of external muscular strength. It is the efficient use of the internal physical structure and musculature of the body. "

David
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Old 07-24-2009, 11:55 AM   #171
Erick Mead
 
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Re: What is IT?

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David Skaggs wrote: View Post

My definition;
Latent abilities in everyone, from childbirth, that is developed (bar disease or physical impairment) to a certain degree during the growth process. The development of these abilities can be enhanced beyond normal by physical activities that require them or specific exercises designed to. The use of this physical ability is more outwardly noticed by the lack of use of external muscular strength. It is the efficient use of the internal physical structure and musculature of the body. "

David
What is the distinction or development that makes this inherent ability more or less efficient ?

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 07-24-2009, 11:58 AM   #172
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Re: What is IT?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post

Which question?
I propose we each, in our own way, answer this question, as objectively as we are able:

"What is 'IT'?"

Then we can comment on our similarities or differences and the possible reasons for them. YMMV.
Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
What is the distinction or development that makes this inherent ability more or less efficient ?
First you got to post your definition of it.

David

Last edited by dps : 07-24-2009 at 12:01 PM.
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Old 07-24-2009, 12:00 PM   #173
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Yep, Shioda had the goods. Of course, he was a prewar student and technically O-sensei was still teaching Daito-ryu at the time... So I should have asked just for postwar students, but it's quite a cheap move to do so after you posted these links, so you can have Shioda.
(BTW, the lack of attention for these skills after WW II is probably the reason why so many of O-sensei's prewar students quit after WW II. Many thanks to Stanley Pranin to go interview these people.)
Quote:
Nariyama Sensei is a deshi of Tomiki Sensei who was a deshi of O'Sensei
I just see a big guy performing good external aikido on a smaller guy. Here's one examples that makes me say so:
At 0:34 it's not a continuous technique. He unbalances uke through uke's grip, then changes his grip to uke's neck to fix him in position, but he's not actively unbalancing him anymore and finally he throws uke. He should be actively unbalancing uke throughout the technique no matter hoiw many times he changes grip.

Quote:
Heiny Sensei studied at Hombu Dojo from 1968 to 1973
I can't tell. Very friendly ukes and poor video quality.

Do you have any more? So far we have one 'yes', one 'no' and one 'undecided'.
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Old 07-24-2009, 12:01 PM   #174
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
David, good luck in your training.

Eric, I do not disagree - I just think that you only needed to look "through the telescope" to know there is something different than what is typically believed.

Rob
That's why your example was bit ironic -- because it was Kepler's maths that revealed what "something different than what was typically believed" actually was. The neat thing about truth is that it does not matter where you start to make inquiry. Start there, then:

"What is typically believed?"

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 07-24-2009, 12:15 PM   #175
dps
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
Yep, Shioda had the goods. Of course, he was a prewar student and technically O-sensei was still teaching Daito-ryu at the time... So I should have asked just for postwar students, but it's quite a cheap move to do so after you posted these links, so you can have Shioda.
(BTW, the lack of attention for these skills after WW II is probably the reason why so many of O-sensei's prewar students quit after WW II. Many thanks to Stanley Pranin to go interview these people.)

I just see a big guy performing good external aikido on a smaller guy. Here's one examples that makes me say so:
At 0:34 it's not a continuous technique. He unbalances uke through uke's grip, then changes his grip to uke's neck to fix him in position, but he's not actively unbalancing him anymore and finally he throws uke. He should be actively unbalancing uke throughout the technique no matter hoiw many times he changes grip.

I can't tell. Very friendly ukes and poor video quality.

Do you have any more? So far we have one 'yes', one 'no' and one 'undecided'.
What is your definition of it?

David
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