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Old 07-23-2009, 09:24 AM   #126
rob_liberti
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Okay - Joshua Reyer (and apparently Mark M while I was writing this) says Keith was going after my argument and not me - and I took it wrong. I certainly couldn't see that, but for whatever reason I can buy that it is true coming from a 3rd party. Josh (and also Mark), thank you. Keith, I'm sorry I misunderstood you and probably gave you a headache. -Rob
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Old 07-23-2009, 09:31 AM   #127
Mike Sigman
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
And, lastly, I actually do believe Mike has a secret. Probably several.
Welllllllllll..... I'm not sure how "something I'm going to teach openly at the L.A. workshop" fully qualifies as a "secret". Josh just tries to get people to tell him stuff on the internet rather than going to Dan's workshop, etc., so when he cries "secrets!" it's more of a ploy.

And yeah, there are "secrets", but a lot of it has to do with how big the "It" really is. Most of the people I see talking about and describing "It" leave me with the impression that they're talking about some limited aspect of skills (the ki/kokyu/qi/jin skills) that are to be learned much like Calculus as part of your math education. Problem is, it's a wider-ranging topic than that, so the limited discussions (mostly about jin/kokyu skills) on this forum have tended to bypass some important complementary issues.

A second problem is the levels of skills. As an example, a kokyu throw can be done at different levels of power and body-training. E.g., a beginner may make a robotic, obvious movement of the body to do a kokyu throw, but an expert may have a number of contributive skills (say, a strong, articulate hara/dantien) and other factors which allow an opponent to be tossed across the dojo. Someone who doesn't know how to do a proper kokyu throw has to start from scratch and develop his skills, etc.... so wanting to know how an expert develops all that power is actually a fairly useless question. It's pointless to try and cross a bridge before you get to it, generally speaking.

So the "It" that is missing is not just a definable "It" ("the It that can be named is not the true It" ), it's an It that has great scope and a number of levels. I.e., if you just learn Tohei's "ki tests" you're just getting started. Why else would Ueshiba have remarked about how many years it took him to progress?

FWIW

Mike
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Old 07-23-2009, 09:40 AM   #128
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

What is wrong with marketing...I am marketing when I say anything on here...aren't you?
Mary
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Old 07-23-2009, 09:41 AM   #129
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Hey Mike,
Thanks for continuing to have a wicked sense of humor.
I wasn't hoping for explicative stuff...maybe just an opening of the kimono just a crack so that I could see the name of this whole field of ki that I do not know the name of.

Not a ploy. Just not sure how to approach these conversations any more. There is a line in detail that won't be crossed...but the naming the thing? Is that past the line? And i only try that with you anyway! Seems that you respect a good poke in the eye! (and sometimes respond forthwith!)

And I would absolutely love to go see Dan, but the seminar is for teachers, isn't it? That precludes me.. (big time)
All the Best,
Josh
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Old 07-23-2009, 10:01 AM   #130
akiy
 
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Hi folks,

Now that it looks like the communications difficulties, mix-ups, and misunderstandings have seemingly been cleared up, can we please direct the thread towards discussing the original topic at hand?

The original topic-starting post is as follows:

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Is it just the people who practice Aikikai Aikido who feel that something is missing in their practice ( internal strength, connection, intent, etc) or do the people who practice Yoseikan Aikido, Yoshinkan Aikido, Shodokan Aikido and Korindo Aikido feel that there is something missing also?

David
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-- Jun

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Old 07-23-2009, 10:12 AM   #131
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Hi Peter, I was lately referring to Mary E.'s comments, but since I seem to have lost my center, I'll bow out of the conversation. Sorry to have gotten off topic.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 07-23-2009, 10:27 AM   #132
rob_liberti
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

(I lost my post!, so this is take 2)
OP -
Did I read somewhere that Yoshinkan incorporated some BJJ-like stuff into their art?
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Old 07-23-2009, 10:57 AM   #133
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
That's one of the things that makes it hard for me personally to think of these skills I hear people talking about as 'essential', or of aikido without them as 'not truely aikido' -- if aikido is the art that O-sensei 'created', and he personally chose who to give ranks to, then he had some criteria in mind when he gave out those ranks, and he gave ranks to all these Shihans who I'm told don't have or teach these skills -- so how can he himself have considered them to be 'fundamental' or 'part of the basic definition of doing aikido, without which it's something else and not aikido'? How can one fairly criticize someone for their right to teach aikido if O-sensei himself is the one who picked them to go teach it? To me that doesn't make sense logically or seem fair.

I understand that's a totally different question from whether some particular skill is great or wonderful to have or part of a very long tradition that included O-sensei, or will totally revolutionalize and improve your aikido, etc. Those kinds of assertions I have no real problem with (without having experienced it I have no idea if they're true, but I have no reason to dismiss them).
Basia,

You win the prize!!!

Its about time someone asked the most obvious of questions ... and when you discover that the answers are Hidden in Plain Site, (Sorry, Ellis, but I couldn't resist) you (and many others) will kick yourself for having missed it.

best in training to all...

.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 07-23-2009, 11:14 AM   #134
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
Mary M - you have my humble apology.
No apology needed, I can see how the misunderstanding happened. The difficulty is that there aren't enough words to describe all the nuances of the human mental state, so it's very hard to be precise enough.

There is an inherent paradox to the "contented" feeling I've been trying to describe. Maybe I've learned through hard knocks that seeking often leads to not finding what you seek, and that the harder you try, the further away you get -- but if you just let it alone, sometimes it comes to you. I've also learned that you don't always get that choice, that sometimes life or circumstances deny you whatever it is you might want to reach for. Five and a half years ago, all I wanted was one more day of sailing with my dad. He died before the ice went out, and I never got that one day. Instead, I had to be content with all the days we'd already had...or, I suppose, I could have chosen to be miserable about it. Experiences like that have taught me about the dangers of discontent. Appreciating the value of what's before you is not the same as believing that it is the whole world or the best that the world has to offer. It may, on the other hand, stem from understanding that we don't all always need to have (or be) "the best" in all things. We can't have the best of all things. We need to choose.
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Old 07-23-2009, 11:32 AM   #135
dps
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
David, can you clarify what you mean by "something is missing". Are you actually referring to an overall, general sense? Or do you have more specific things in mind, like aiki/internal body skills?
After a 17 year hiatus I came back to formal practice in Aikido. During the hiatus I practice on my own the things that I was taught. I started practicing again at a dojo and spent a lot of time reading the martial art forums ( no internet 20 years ago) and asking questions here on Aikiweb to find out what I had missed. The talk about what is not present or taught in Aikido confused me. The descriptions of what is missing was present in what I was taught some twenty years ago.

My question was posed to bring out what the people who practice Aikido ( not me) who post on Aikiweb felt was missing in their Aikido to gauge the state of Aikdo today.

I have read that there is approaching 1.5 million people practicing Aikido just under the Aikikai umbrella.

An additional question would be how representative are the people who post here are to the entire Aikido community.

David
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Old 07-23-2009, 12:32 PM   #136
rob_liberti
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
...if aikido is the art that O-sensei 'created', and he personally chose who to give ranks to, then he had some criteria in mind when he gave out those ranks, and he gave ranks to all these Shihans who I'm told don't have or teach these skills
For me, I think it boils down to the fact that I personally am primarily only interested in the aikido that O-sensei taught to himself. What many shihan have done with aikido, is not my cup of tea.

Rob
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Old 07-23-2009, 12:40 PM   #137
dps
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
For me, I think it boils down to the fact that I personally am primarily only interested in the aikido that O-sensei taught to himself. What many shihan have done with aikido, is not my cup of tea.

Rob
How do you know what O'Sensei taught to himself if not by what he showed to those closet to him?

David
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Old 07-23-2009, 12:44 PM   #138
rob_liberti
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
How do you know what O'Sensei taught to himself if not by what he showed to those closet to him?
David, like any good engineer, I tried approaching it from the other direction. Who taught O-sensei? Who else did that person teach? What do people from those lines do that more closely produces the reported results of O-sensei? How can I learn that? etc...
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Old 07-23-2009, 12:59 PM   #139
Basia Halliop
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
For me, I think it boils down to the fact that I personally am primarily only interested in the aikido that O-sensei taught to himself. What many shihan have done with aikido, is not my cup of tea.
Presumably the uchi-deshi didn't each completely reinvent their aikido and remove from it what they already were strong in after he gave them all their ranks, though. To me O-Sensei, or any other teacher, giving someone a high teaching rank in Aikido, is O-Sensei saying 'this person is currently doing pretty good Aikido'... I can see that some people disagree with that and believe there is some other interpretation possible, but it's certainly not an crazy interpretation.
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Old 07-23-2009, 01:30 PM   #140
Mike Sigman
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
Presumably the uchi-deshi didn't each completely reinvent their aikido and remove from it what they already were strong in after he gave them all their ranks, though. To me O-Sensei, or any other teacher, giving someone a high teaching rank in Aikido, is O-Sensei saying 'this person is currently doing pretty good Aikido'... I can see that some people disagree with that and believe there is some other interpretation possible, but it's certainly not an crazy interpretation.
Hi Basia:

There are many discussions posted about pre-war and post-war uchi-deshi's, loss of and lack of skills to varying degrees within the teaching ranks (Tohei's history has some interesting discussions about things he tried to show uchi-deshi's because of a putative loss/missing of these skills, etc.). In other words, it's never a safe bet to judge someone by rank, teacher, licenses, and so on... the same credentials can be held by people of widely differing skill, knowledge, and so on. It's known and recognized phenomena in all the martial-arts, BTW.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-23-2009, 02:17 PM   #141
dps
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Hi Basia:
In other words, it's never a safe bet to judge someone by rank, teacher, licenses, and so on... the same credentials can be held by people of widely differing skill, knowledge, and so on. It's known and recognized phenomena in all the martial-arts, BTW.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
The uchi-deshi of O,Sensei would have the closest knowledge of what O'Sensei was doing than any body else inside and outside of Aikido.

You have to be aware of when a particular uch-deshi was with O'Sensei to understand what that one knew, but if you use Tohei Sensei as an example then you would look at what he taught at the time he was closest to O'Sensei.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuuhW...C16821&index=0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbgRGgcBAUg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VSqp...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=op43x...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEoe0...eature=related

David
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Old 07-23-2009, 02:24 PM   #142
dps
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
David, like any good engineer, I tried approaching it from the other direction. Who taught O-sensei? Who else did that person teach? What do people from those lines do that more closely produces the reported results of O-sensei? How can I learn that? etc...
I understand. I have a degree in engineering technology and have spent the majority of my adult life installing, troubleshooting and repairing electrical, mechanical, electrical-mechanical and electronic systems.

Reproducing what O'Sensei learned and who he learned it from that led him to his Aikido. = Reverse Engineer

Practicing what O'Sensei left for us to follow = Reading the User Manual
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Old 07-23-2009, 02:25 PM   #143
Mike Sigman
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
You have to be aware of when a particular uch-deshi was with O'Sensei to understand what that one knew, but if you use Tohei Sensei as an example then you would look at what he taught at the time he was closest to O'Sensei.
Well, I'd also point out the well-known fact that a lot of Tohei's understanding of ki/kokyu skills came from Tempu Nakamura, because Ueshiba wasn't really showing those skills to the Uchi Deshi. Similarly, if you read some of the contemporary histories, Tohei attempted to show some of the current Uchi-deshi's aspects of the same skills we're talking about. Hence, the idea that Ueshiba's giving of rank implicitly indicates full knowledge doesn't fully stand up.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-23-2009, 03:28 PM   #144
dps
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Well, I'd also point out the well-known fact that a lot of Tohei's understanding of ki/kokyu skills came from Tempu Nakamura, because Ueshiba wasn't really showing those skills to the Uchi Deshi.
If it wasn't something that O'Sensei was teaching then he did not want it passed on and it was not meant to be a part of Aikido. Therefore it is not missing from Aikido and there is no need to discuss the lack of it or reintroduce something that was never meant to be.

David
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Old 07-23-2009, 03:44 PM   #145
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
If it wasn't something that O'Sensei was teaching then he did not want it passed on and it was not meant to be a part of Aikido.
Only if you think O-sensei would explicitly teach everything he wanted you to learn and did not expect you to steal the technique.
(Or is showing something and expecting your students to steal it a proper way of teaching? Then he was teaching. )
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Old 07-23-2009, 03:55 PM   #146
Mike Sigman
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
If it wasn't something that O'Sensei was teaching then he did not want it passed on and it was not meant to be a part of Aikido. Therefore it is not missing from Aikido and there is no need to discuss the lack of it or reintroduce something that was never meant to be.
So all the past discussions about Ueshiba saying "steal this technique", etc., (meaning he wasn't going to teach it directly, as is often done in Asian martial arts) means nothing to you? Your judgement of what and how a lot of things are transmitted in Asia is the correct one? As far as I know, the idea of gokui and hiden is a fixture in Asian martial arts, so it would be a surprise to me if people were *not* missing parts of Aikido that were meant to be hidden.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-23-2009, 04:02 PM   #147
rob_liberti
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
If it wasn't something that O'Sensei was teaching then he did not want it passed on and it was not meant to be a part of Aikido. Therefore it is not missing from Aikido and there is no need to discuss the lack of it or reintroduce something that was never meant to be.
THAT was awesome! OR...

Maybe he was a terrible teacher (makes his title a bit odd!)
Maybe he had terrible students (seems odd too...)
Maybe he taught just a select few and they either kept the secret or they themselves only taught a very small number of people who kept the secrets or showed only a few people who continue that pattern...
Maybe he was not allowed to teach what was taught to him directly resulting in generations trying to copy his internal aiki with externalized (to various levels of depth) aiki approximation

(just some crazy thoughts)

Gokuii - means secret. Maybe the secret is out.

Rob
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Old 07-23-2009, 04:07 PM   #148
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
As far as I know, the idea of gokui and hiden is a fixture in Asian martial arts, so it would be a surprise to me if people were *not* missing parts of Aikido that were meant to be hidden.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
Why do you suppose they might've been meant to be hidden?

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 07-23-2009, 04:24 PM   #149
Mike Sigman
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Why do you suppose they might've been meant to be hidden?
Because they give an enormous edge over someone who doesn't know them. For example, think of the anecdote about Ueshiba and the Sumo wrestler, Tenryu:
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=350

Without the jin/kokyu/ki skills, Ueshiba could not have triumphed in that minor demonstration. On the other hand, if Tenryu understood jin/kokyu skills, he would have neutralized what Ueshiba did and then it would have all resolved to technique and strength. The point is that these skills are valuable and would not have been openly taught in the days when martial-combat was more common.

Or, as one of my teachers told me when he showed me some 'secret' training method: "If you show everyone how to do it, then everyone will know". Sounded then and now sort of like a Yogi Berra saying.

Mike
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Old 07-23-2009, 04:33 PM   #150
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
Gokuii - means secret. Maybe the secret is out.
Rob
Gokui is frequently misunderstood. It didn't mean students didn't get it. if you were an indoor student you are taught as you move on up.So it's eventually revealed. It just doesn't mean there is any guarantee for any individual.

Quote:
If it wasn't something that O'Sensei was teaching then he did not want it passed on and it was not meant to be a part of Aikido. Therefore it is not missing from Aikido and there is no need to discuss the lack of it or reintroduce something that was never meant to be.

David
Anyone who thinks that Asian teachers openly taught and or even knew a method to explicitly teach some things just doesn't understand Japanese or Chinese budo. Nothing you will say will change the fact that many, if not most, arts required you to steal things and/ or things were taught intuitively. And in other arts they were withheld for only a few chosen students.
My God man Asian teachers openly stated they do this!
Hell I know one Japanese art that asked an American teacher to teach them how to teach better!!
You can argue all you want- with respect- I let my statement stand.
Have you considered there is more to it than you may know in your own experience? Isn't that fair for you to consider? Please consider that.
Cheers
Dan
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