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Old 07-22-2009, 06:56 PM   #101
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Drew Ames wrote: View Post
It was enough for them to study aikido and master what they could.

So this leads to a very fundamental question: what is aikido? Or to put it more carefully, what characteristics should an art have to be considered aikido?

O Sensei's approach seemed to result in a messy hodgepodge of "stuff" comprising aikido that really only made complete sense to him.
Nicely said. This certainly fits with my own impressions of Aikido. I've usually meant "Aikido" to denote the process of studying the lineages that came from O Sensei. As a result of that process, I've called some quesitonable things, "Aikido." Part of me still considers them "Aikido" in the sense that I'm trying to find indominable positions/postures (of mind and body) based on natural strengths/virtues...being in concordance with the (demands of the) world around me (I'd say universe, but that seems a bit lofty to me right now)...but now I've also begun to delineate a difference between Aikido proper and inspired expression. My guess is that O Sensei had a sense of what pure Aikido was supposed to be, but that the practice itself, particularly for the newer students, is rarely much of a measure of that ideal. Are they practicing Aikido? Yes and no. This isn't to say we can't speak in concrete terms, but exactly what those terms are and what exactly they mean seem to vary somewhat...and the interpreted correlations even more so. As a result of this, I agree whole-heartedly with Mike's notion that while the exchanges can be frustrating (just like good keiko can be), what's important is we communicate and continue to try our best; it's a part of the process.
My guess is that O Sensei would probably say we all have things missing in our Aikido.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 07-22-2009 at 07:00 PM.

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Old 07-22-2009, 07:20 PM   #102
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Is it just the people who practice Aikikai Aikido who feel that something is missing in their practice ( internal strength, connection, intent, etc) or do the people who practice Yoseikan Aikido, Yoshinkan Aikido, Shodokan Aikido and Korindo Aikido feel that there is something missing also?

David
As a practitioner of Yoshinkan Aikido, I have, and most likely always will, felt/feel that something is missing. In my opinion I think it is a human response and unless you're perfect you'll always feel it.

Connor Haberland, 1st dan.




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Old 07-22-2009, 07:33 PM   #103
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
Good question. What makes you think I don't know what to listen for?

Sure, the shape of the exercises is taught, just no the skills that go with them.
I don't know if you do or not -- which is part of the point. The nature of thing in question in my perspective is not adequately captured by the sense of "skill" being deeper and less amenable to overt linear instruction. To put my point of view toward the aiki taiso -- if the shape is "made" to occur -- the "skills" are not (yet) present. If they simply occur when acting -- then they are. There is a nonchalance to it that belies what actually goes into training it.

After the Baseline thread went on for 1500 plus posts, it became relatively clear that there were (at least four) divergent perspectives, all highly committed to their own point of view (not a sin, in itself) but therefore, regularly talking past one another from their own subjective impressions. It is not that the signal/noise ratio was so terribly low, quite the opposite, but the channel had little modulation/demodulation to convert those crossing signals into compatible handshakes. In Aikido terms, they hardly ever gained connection with one another.

I gave you my concept of the objective content -- if you give your idea of the objective content of the 'skills,' then maybe we have a ground to work on in common -- in this setting . Objective points are not the entirety of the issue, by any means, but without that there is little chance of reconciling these legitimately differing subjective impressions into a coherent and conceptually expressible whole.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 07-22-2009, 08:27 PM   #104
Keith Larman
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Well, I hope you can make Sunday since there's going to be a lot on a massively important area of "ki" that no one has really addressed on this forum.

Best.

Mike
Ha, okay, I'll try to get free for both days. Man, too much on the schedule this summer...

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Old 07-22-2009, 08:48 PM   #105
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ooooh

guess it was time to move into the "I've got a secret" phase, huh?
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Old 07-22-2009, 10:02 PM   #106
rob_liberti
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Ha! Oh my gosh. So I'm not sure if Keith is waiting for me to tap out or not, but I'm not tapping. I have nothing against Mary. I think she expressed a bullsh*t extreme position as an argument. If someone else (Dan, Gleason sensei, anyone) expressed that I would have done the exact same thing (and have actually on other things I thought were BS). I just dislike that specific position (I disliked it before I met Dan) and I disagree with it's usage as a fair argument. But hey, if my not being able to understand people not like me is all that telling, I'm fine with that.

About the salad bar thing, there is that idea that goes something like: from 1000 things comes 1 thing, and from 1 thing comes a 1000 things.

In my opinion, the "salad bar" thing describes when you are in phase of trying to learn the 1000 things desperately hoping to find the 1 kernel.

I admit I tried a bit of the salad bar thing until I found the best kernel I could find. Then trained that for about 20 years and was not satisfied that I had what I wanted well enough. I started trying to apply what I had of it to other things to test it, and instead/eventually I found Dan H. What he was/is teaching turned out to be a more fundamental kernel. It is clearly a specific focus on the art within all arts I have had experience with. So I continued to practice aikido as well as Dan's aiki and MMA for the past couple years, and I am more and more convinced. I'm excited that I am starting to get to the utility phase where I can start applying it more directly to aikido as well as MMA, arnis, knife/cali, etc. which will all make my aikido better.

And for the curious, yes I have other hobbies. I love yoga, active isolated stretching, and most importantly playing with my little boy.

And, lastly, I actually do believe Mike has a secret. Probably several. -Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 07-22-2009 at 10:16 PM.
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Old 07-22-2009, 11:00 PM   #107
Keith Larman
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Wow, well, this isn't a fight nor is it a competition. No need to "tap out". No need to ascribe me motivations of being the "white knight" and then hop onto the cross giving yourself the title of the "black knight", no bullsh*t discussions, etc. Obviously I'm not able to communicate my discomfort with the content your posts. Not with you, mind you but the content, the ideas, or the notions of your posts.

Honestly if you sincerely say that you took what Mary said at "face value" then what you posted as instances of her attitude were all self-serving interpretations and IMHO intellectually dishonest. There is simply no point to discussing it in that case. I simply disagree completely about your interpretations of what was posted.

It seems to me you're seeing the world through those rose colored lenses of what you think is already the case. It become self-fulfilling.

Best of luck. I'll "tap out" of this conversation to use your term.

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Old 07-22-2009, 11:25 PM   #108
rob_liberti
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

No Keith. Not "her attitude" - she described a generic "you". I think you rode in to HER rescue and I was surprised by that. And left me thinking about a phrase ending with "and the horse you rode in on".

Honestly, I'm perfectly fine with your interpretation. I actually appreciate it. Somehow, though it seems to me that I went after an attitude about training aikido of a generic "you" and you... went - somewhat relentlessly - after me and my daring. From unfair, dishonest, rose colored glasses, self-serving, and my favorite was the "salad bar" analogy (but I'm not sure if that came from you). And I picked on Mary and you - zero times to my count.

FWIW, I assigned me the role of red knight - maybe due to the color of my specticals.

I think Mike and Dan are both Black Knights. And the aikido world needs more of them.

Peace or not, you choose - Rob
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Old 07-23-2009, 12:17 AM   #109
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Just wanted to say well said to Keith for everything he's posted in this thread.

Nothing against you, Rob. I normally enjoy your posts. But everything since your reply to Mary has struck me as a rather weird overreaction.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
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Old 07-23-2009, 12:49 AM   #110
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
..
And, lastly, I actually do believe Mike has a secret. Probably several. -Rob
yeah. i know. i think so too.
<grumble...mumble..mumble>

Last edited by thisisnotreal : 07-23-2009 at 12:52 AM. Reason: onomatopoeia
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Old 07-23-2009, 01:01 AM   #111
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
And for the curious, yes I have other hobbies. I love yoga, active isolated stretching, ...
Hi Rob,
Can I ask you about that?
Are these other hobbies (yoga, AIS==PNF?) in any substantive way contributing to (/extensions to) your pursuit of *it* in Aikido? If so, would you mind elaborating a bit?
I am thinking: They are both modes of changing the body...aren't they? Do they help toward that end? (aiki) Or is it more "a besides" thing?
Cheers,
Josh
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Old 07-23-2009, 05:17 AM   #112
rob_liberti
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Josh Phillipson - yes in the fact that those things get me out of my own way.

Josh Reyer - well okay, I'll take your feedback. I suppose I really like aikido so in general I'm going to agree with everyone else who likes aikido on most things pro-aikido. The thing is I really dislike that attitude that goes so well with "clients" and "McDojos" over "students" and "real dojos". (I'm sure they are all nice people.)

I never thought Mary was suggesting that she, herself, was a client. I thought I was reading an argument to progress in martial arts using what seems to be the hyperbolic-client's perspective. That to me is against aikido, it is against aikido students, it is against my personal blood, sweat, and tears. I never thought Mary was suggesting she, herself, was a client. I still don't. I just started taking what I would term the hyperbolic-client-attitude to what seems to be the logical progression.

I didn't think that was unfair and I didn't think some one playing captain justice would rush in to set me straight. So, maybe I got it all wrong, and maybe Keith and I will turn out to be great friends some day, who knows.

Since I've been standing on a soapbox lately, I'll continue. All I can say is that BEFORE I met Dan H, I pretty much had formed the very unpopular opinion that the VAST majority of aikido is crap (yes yes even my own) due to "strong-arming" EVERYWHERE and that opinion was based on years and years of my personal blood, sweat, and tears. I traveled and traveled hoping for some/ANY insight into how I could make the leap to be able to do aikido without directly pushing, pulling, lifting, etc. Only a very select few could do it (shihan included - meaning many/most were the biggest strong-armer-s out there). I could not relate to most people's attitude about aikido THEN. I wanted awesome aikido; and so many people just spoke about O-sensei as a god who could do things we normal humans could never do. I cannot relate to that. To me he was a man, and I want to surpass him. Now I have a chance of doing that so I'm psyched and maybe a little crazed - so I acknowledge that maybe I have a screw loose. But from where I am standing, I think that mostly everyone else is crazy.

The argument I thought Mary used seemed to be a validation of the hyperbolic client-attitude - which I could never relate to - to invalidate the hyperbolic student-attitude (which I tend to favor). Such an argument, goes in the same category in my brain as if someone tried to argue from the perspective of the world being flat and/or the Sun revolving around the Earth... I'm not sure I *want* to understand that perspective.

Hugs,
Rob
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Old 07-23-2009, 06:29 AM   #113
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

This is a very interesting marketing tool. First people get on the boards and say they never do workshops. Then they say when they do a work shop they don't charge anything.
Next thing you know they are offering a workshop, charging and offering secrets.
Why not just say we are doing workshops, charging money and exploring Ki development?
Honesty and reality have a lot to do with ki development.
Just some thoughts.
Mary
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Old 07-23-2009, 06:45 AM   #114
rob_liberti
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Dan has never charged me anything. I don't charge anything when I teach that stuff after the normal aikido class at my place.

Let's see, my main dojo made a profit of $30 last year, and the dues are 45, 55, or 65 per month depending on when you joined. (I pay $150/month for my 5 year old to go to 2 martial arts classes per week.) So I'm not seeing the big *money* conspiracy here.

I think what changed was that Dan recognized that *it has to be felt* would be felt a lot more if he made it more accessible by doing a workshop - but that's my guess.

Mary E - I remember Dan offering for you to come visit him and that he would even come visit you. I'm positive he wasn't planning on charging. I think he was offering to buy dinner. I assume you haven't taken him up on that yet...

Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 07-23-2009 at 06:54 AM.
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Old 07-23-2009, 06:54 AM   #115
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

My apologies, but there's too much of substance (not to mention the silliness of knights' color and who rode to whose rescue) in this thread for me to keep up with right now. A number of people (most particularly Keith, Basia and Drew) have said things that resonate with me, and said them better than I could, but I'll make a brief attempt at my own summary. Stasis, stagnation, complacency, and "being here now" are all different things, yet if you dial down the resolution enough on your monitor, I'm sure they all look pretty much the same.

...and that's all I've got to say about that.
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Old 07-23-2009, 06:55 AM   #116
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

The seminar that was talked about on the other thread was priced at $180.
A fair price. But a price nonetheless.
There is nothing wrong with charging.
Actually... we invited Dan to the Berkshires to exchange ideas and offered to buy him and his wife dinner. The offer still stands.
Mary
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Old 07-23-2009, 06:59 AM   #117
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
yeah. i know. i think so too.
<grumble...mumble..mumble>
he doesn't have secrets. go ahead and ask him. he might even show them to you. however, whether you can learn from that or not is a whole different planet altogether. i believed one of those old proverb about keeping secrets in plain sight, which reminded me that i need to order a copy of Ellis's new book. now if i can keep that a secret from my wife; otherwise, she will be grumbling about i spent more money on martial arts stuffs than her, of which i had the misfortune of open my mouth and stated that she spent more money on shoes. sometimes irimi just get you a smack-down!

you know! all these internal stuffs talks give the urge to go for a good dimsum.
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Old 07-23-2009, 07:00 AM   #118
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Silly thoughts, Mary. They didn't do them, people asked them to do them, they obliged.

Then someone (words omitted here) comes up and calls them dis-honest and unrealistic for kindly obliging those who asked.

Jesus...
Ron

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Old 07-23-2009, 07:15 AM   #119
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

No silly... Ron.
But thank you for your judgement. True words.
Read back and look.
Leading the mind is leading the mind...nothing wrong with it...but can't you see you are being led.
Wake up. Train at your key board...find ki...lol.
Mary
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Old 07-23-2009, 07:26 AM   #120
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
I never thought Mary was suggesting that she, herself, was a client. I thought I was reading an argument to progress in martial arts using what seems to be the hyperbolic-client's perspective. That to me is against aikido, it is against aikido students, it is against my personal blood, sweat, and tears. I never thought Mary was suggesting she, herself, was a client. I still don't. I just started taking what I would term the hyperbolic-client-attitude to what seems to be the logical progression.

I didn't think that was unfair and I didn't think some one playing captain justice would rush in to set me straight. So, maybe I got it all wrong, and maybe Keith and I will turn out to be great friends some day, who knows.
Well, certainly, I hope you and Keith can work things out. It looks like one big miscommunication to me.

I, for one, didn't think Mary was talking about herself. I don't think you were talking about Mary herself, and I can't speak for Keith, but I don't think even he was talking about Mary herself. From my perspective, it looked like both of you were talking about what Mary was saying, and were talking past each other. Which happens. But it did strike me that Keith was talking about your argument as being unfair, and about the tone of your argument, but you took it personally and responded ad hominem.

I understand that these discussions often get heated, and looking in from the outside it seems like everyone feels in someway like the underdog, like they're under attack from the other side. But I think a promising discussion between you and Keith got sidetracked because you took it personally and responded in kind. There's room for honest disagreement, and (dare I say it?!) even empathy and concord.

All that said, along with the heat of your exchange, I think there was some light as well.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
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Old 07-23-2009, 07:27 AM   #121
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
This is a very interesting marketing tool. First people get on the boards and say they never do workshops. Then they say when they do a work shop they don't charge anything.
Next thing you know they are offering a workshop, charging and offering secrets.
Why not just say we are doing workshops, charging money and exploring Ki development?
Honesty and reality have a lot to do with ki development.
Just some thoughts.
Speaking of judgement...OH BOY, it's hard to get more judgemental than that.

R

Ron Tisdale
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Old 07-23-2009, 07:35 AM   #122
rob_liberti
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Mary M - you have my humble apology.

Mary E - I'll remind Dan to go visit you. I'm not Dan is going to agree with you that in order for him to stay consistent with what he has done at his own dojo that he needs to pay for the space and the insurance out of his own pocket. I really have no idea what the profit will be if there will be any, but that's really not *my* business.
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Old 07-23-2009, 08:00 AM   #123
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Hello Ron,

Just for those of us who have no dogs to hunt in this thread, but who are interested bystanders, there are two Marys who are participating in this discussion. Which Mary were you referring to?

All the best to you and yours,

PAG

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Silly thoughts, Mary. They didn't do them, people asked them to do them, they obliged.

Then someone (words omitted here) comes up and calls them dis-honest and unrealistic for kindly obliging those who asked.

Jesus...
Ron

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Old 07-23-2009, 08:04 AM   #124
rob_liberti
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Peter, that was Mary E.
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Old 07-23-2009, 08:20 AM   #125
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Joshua Reyer wrote: View Post
Well, certainly, I hope you and Keith can work things out. It looks like one big miscommunication to me.
Personally, I think so, too.

Rob, it took me a few posts to start understanding your point. I think I finally did, but really, I think you did a poor job of communicating your point.

Keith, If I got Rob's point right, you mistook what he was saying. But, hey, it wasn't clear to me either.

I got kind of a whirlwind feeling, so I just started ignoring things. I wouldn't blame Mary M at all for doing the same.

Mary E. I took your post like Ron did. If there was some other point, both Ron and I missed it.

Seems that a lot of miscommunication is going on here. Dunno, but I find less and less of it is worth reading. So, going back to the first post:

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Is it just the people who practice Aikikai Aikido who feel that something is missing in their practice ( internal strength, connection, intent, etc) or do the people who practice Yoseikan Aikido, Yoshinkan Aikido, Shodokan Aikido and Korindo Aikido feel that there is something missing also?

David
David, can you clarify what you mean by "something is missing". Are you actually referring to an overall, general sense? Or do you have more specific things in mind, like aiki/internal body skills?
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