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Old 07-14-2009, 09:54 AM   #26
Suru
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
just what kind of time distortion trick is someone who isn't experienced with kicks going to pull in order to have this mythical "plenty of time"?
Mary, I don't know if you are referring to my light speed comment, but thank you for the chuckle either way. Yesterday I watched a few Kung Fu episodes, and Carradine's kicks always seem just fast enough, like his timing is of the highest importance. Of course this is choreographed TV series script, but I'll say it usually appears on the realistic side.

Drew
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Old 07-14-2009, 02:03 PM   #27
JimCooper
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
This claim about having "plenty of time" to avoid or trap a kick is often made by those who have never trained in a kicking style. No particular knock on you, Jim, I'm sure you're repeating the words of others
No, I'm not actually. I'm basing that statement on 20 years of karate practice.

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
but if that statement were true, don't you think no one would ever land a kick in karate kumite?
Scoring kicks to the head are extremely rare in kumite, IME. I've certainly never managed it. Kicks to the body are also rare, except in TKD competitions where they don't bother to try and block them.I knew one guy who was very good at them, but most people are rubbish, actually :-)

The problem is one of range. Your foot really does have to travel a very long way. Also, it's hard to avoid telegraphing. You can hide the type of kick somewhat, but only somewhat.

There are ways to use kicks in self-defence scenarios, but they are rarely practised (they are never practised in most karate dojo, IME). They are **never** high kicks. High kicks are a recent introduction to karate, in fact, and kicks were never done above the waist in the "old" days.

If you really feel it's necessary, the best way to do a kick to the head is to get the opponent on the ground first. It's a pretty vicious thing to do though.
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Old 07-14-2009, 02:22 PM   #28
MM
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?

Huh, well, I guess someone should tell Cro Cop that all his winning kicks were too slow and could be blocked. Especially the one at 1:02-1:04 in this vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjHxQl-KwEs
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Old 07-14-2009, 02:26 PM   #29
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?

Hey Mark...I was just going to say that. :O

Though I agree, the attendent risk in a self defense (as opposed to sporting) environment would make me shy away from high kicks...if I could even still do them.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 07-14-2009, 02:49 PM   #30
lbb
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?

Quote:
Jim Cooper wrote: View Post
No, I'm not actually. I'm basing that statement on 20 years of karate practice.
Ah. As I'm sure you'll understand, most people who repeat that line have never trained in karate and are simply repeating, um, "received wisdom".

Quote:
Jim Cooper wrote: View Post
Scoring kicks to the head are extremely rare in kumite, IME.
Who said they had to be kicks to the head?

Quote:
Jim Cooper wrote: View Post
I've certainly never managed it.
I have
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Old 07-14-2009, 03:06 PM   #31
JimCooper
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?

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Drew Gardner wrote: View Post
Jim, I've seen a Tae Kwon Do kick and a "Japanese karate" ;-) kick (happened to be basically the same kick)
They aren't "basically" the same, they are exactly the same.
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Old 07-14-2009, 03:10 PM   #32
JimCooper
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Who said they had to be kicks to the head?
The person I was replying to :-)
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Old 07-14-2009, 03:27 PM   #33
JimCooper
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Huh, well, I guess someone should tell Cro Cop that all his winning kicks were too slow and could be blocked.
Like I said, not many of us are fast enough to do that. I'm not sure why you think I said no-one could do it.
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Old 07-14-2009, 04:27 PM   #34
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?

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Jim Cooper wrote: View Post
Like I said, not many of us are fast enough to do that. I'm not sure why you think I said no-one could do it.
Um, well...not many of us can use aikido techniques effectively in a fight either. That's just as valid as your statement. So what's the point?
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Old 07-14-2009, 04:40 PM   #35
Suru
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?

Also in the UFC and its minor leagues, I've seen what I guess I'll call "jab kicks" to the quadriceps and maybe hamstrings. They land often, and after repeated ones, the opponent must just want to exit the octagon and sit in a Jacuzzi for a few hours.

Drew
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Old 07-14-2009, 06:57 PM   #36
Lulu
 
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I wasn't addressing situations where someone labels a martial art by the name of a different style, and I certainly wasn't saying that anything calling itself karate is the same as anything else calling itself karate. I think that's obvious if you take my statement in context, but in case it isn't, the point is that karate is not aikido and should not be aikido, and if you bust your butt to find the most aikido-like karate you can, what's the point?
I misunderstood what you were saying. I always kept the two arts seperate when I was training both, but I found them very similar at times.
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Old 07-15-2009, 01:52 PM   #37
MM
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?

Quote:
Jim Cooper wrote: View Post
Like I said, not many of us are fast enough to do that. I'm not sure why you think I said no-one could do it.
You said:

Quote:
Jim Cooper wrote: View Post
Scoring kicks to the head are extremely rare in kumite, IME. I've certainly never managed it. Kicks to the body are also rare, except in TKD competitions where they don't bother to try and block them.I knew one guy who was very good at them, but most people are rubbish, actually :-)
Rare and most people are rubbish.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qc_PJxret-A
At 0:42-0:44, 2:00-2:03, 2:18-2:19, 4:34-4:35, 4:38

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELkYe2w-3iY
At 0:51

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJsucalR-UQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cDpxhrIvL8
0:20

Doesn't take much youtube-fu to find quite a lot of knockout kicks to the head, let alone just kicks to the head that aren't knockouts. Same with kicks to the body. Rare? No. And I would also argue that "not many of us" or "most people" really doesn't apply either when looking within that sphere of martial arts or sports -- If all the youtube video is to be believed.

Here's a karate kumite with a kick to the head:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG8M4FlDBn8
0:20
And they manage kicks to the body, too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNp16NtiYMc
2:34 kick to the body.
4:33-4:34, was that a kick to the head?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeL67B0VOUM
right at the beginning, a kick to the head
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Old 07-15-2009, 10:18 PM   #38
seank
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?

I know this has been delving further from the topic at hand, but I would agree that head kicks in and of themselves are not used as often because they do take time to land and are often hard to employ without a feint to mask the intention of the kick.

Of course I remember very early on being kicked three times to the face by my instructor only a year or so after starting studying kyokushin, but that kind of head high attack became less effective as my skill improved and my height and weight increased.

Similarly I was concussed after being kicked to the chest with a simple mae geri delivered by a nidan fukushidoin during one of my gradings. I successfully blocked the attack but the momentum of a kick delivered by a person twenty centimetres taller and 30kgs heavier simply sent me flying backwards, head first into the ground.

At a higher level of karate, I would suggest there is far less of the rapid-fire kicking and punching, and more deliberate, aimed attacks. One karateka will try and create an opportunity or opening and exploit it rather than just relying on a random hit. The movements become more rounded in an attempt to flow and respond to an attack, not entirely unlike Aikido in that respect.

As with anything though, there are people who can genuinely pull off lightning fast kicks that can get away with kicking to the head. For me though it was an opportunistic attack rather than something regularly relied upon. We trained to use elbows and knees against forearms and shins, striking at distance and at close range, alternating the attacks to try and create an opportunity. An elbow to the head is just as effective as kicking and can be delivered in a fraction of the time.

There are so many styles, methodologies and experience that its almost impossible to pidgeon hole the success or likelihood of any type of attack, kick or otherwise.

Simply, kicks to the head exist, they can be performed, they can easily knock someone out, they can be slow or fast, they can have an enormous amount of power or just enough to tip a persons balance, they can come from an inside attacking line, an outside line, from overhead, from underneath. You name it its there. Like any other fight it may or may not present.
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Old 07-16-2009, 03:43 AM   #39
JimCooper
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Rare and most people are rubbish.
At high kicks, yes, most people are. Of course, my opinion gained actually doing this stuff for 20 years has now been swayed by your extensive youtube research.

There is a reason that high kicks were not in old style (ie more self defence oriented) karate. There is a reason self-defence instructors do not teach high kicks.

You can choose to believe otherwise, of course.
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Old 07-16-2009, 03:50 AM   #40
JimCooper
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Um, well...not many of us can use aikido techniques effectively in a fight either. That's just as valid as your statement. So what's the point?
I'm not sure I understand your question. What's my point (which is simply a disagreement about a technique's usefulness in a given situation), or what's the point of training in aikido?
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Old 07-16-2009, 07:17 AM   #41
lbb
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?

Quote:
Jim Cooper wrote: View Post
I'm not sure I understand your question. What's my point (which is simply a disagreement about a technique's usefulness in a given situation), or what's the point of training in aikido?
What's your point in creating a double standard in which you dismiss a karate technique as useless, while failing to provide evidence to support your assertion that defeating such a technique is trivially easy?
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Old 07-16-2009, 07:33 AM   #42
MM
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?

Quote:
Jim Cooper wrote: View Post
At high kicks, yes, most people are. Of course, my opinion gained actually doing this stuff for 20 years has now been swayed by your extensive youtube research.

There is a reason that high kicks were not in old style (ie more self defence oriented) karate. There is a reason self-defence instructors do not teach high kicks.

You can choose to believe otherwise, of course.
Let's go back and revisit your words.

Quote:
Jim Cooper wrote: View Post
Scoring kicks to the head are extremely rare in kumite, IME. I've certainly never managed it. Kicks to the body are also rare, except in TKD competitions where they don't bother to try and block them.
Kumite = sparring. You specifically stated that kicks to the head are "extremely rare" in kumite. I disagreed and provided raw, video evidence that kicks to the head are not rare in kumite.

Within minutes, I found all those links on youtube. And the first section was knockout kicks to the head in competition or sparring. With days, months, and years, I could certainly accomplish much, much more than that.

Of course, if you want to bring up your 20 years of experience and put it against the entire world posting videos of competition and sparring, that's entirely your choice. I'm personally not comparing my experiences in kumite with yours. I'm showing real world facts as experienced by everyone outside my personal experience. If you have a problem with all those people - world wide, mind you - negating your 20 years of experience, please take it up with them.

I stand by my reflections -- kicks to the head or body are not rare in kumite, as you noted.

If you want to try to bring into the discussion, self defense applicational usages to muddy up the high-kick kumite discussion, I'd suggest starting a new thread. I'm getting too off topic already.

I'll just leave it and let those reading this thread decide what to believe: you posting that high kicks and body kicks are extremely rare in kumite from your 20 years of experience; or my 10 minute quick Youtube search showing many high kick knockouts, high kicks to the head, and body kicks scoring points in kumite throughout the entire world.
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Old 07-23-2009, 04:03 AM   #43
Michael Fitzgerald
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?

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Tomas Grana wrote: View Post
I'll try to balance the two... This may be due to my beginner level,...Do you have any thoughts on which (if any) karate styles might harmonize with the circularity, for lack of a better word, of aikido, the best?...
Tom
HI Tom,
Not sure if you're still interested in this topic, but just in case, and FWIW:
My opinion is that very few people can train in two different (at least at basic level) arts/ systems, and be excellent at both (either?).
Not sure why this is - could be that the sorts of people who try it aren't made for either (harsh, yes)- or could be that it's a case of 'chase two rabbits- catch none'!?
My suggestion? If you want to train traditional Karate, and you feel it suits your body type/ instincts- try Goju, or another Okinawan style if you have access to an experienced and true teacher.
If you want to train Aikido, just train Aikido (same caveats).

You mention the fun of kicking. While it can be liberating or give you a free or empowering feeling to strike in training Karate or other arts, this is not always an indication that you are developing a practically applicable arsenal of behaviours/ techniques (which can also be developed in Aikido IMHO).

Having said all that!! I am no expert and enjoy typing- so take it with a grain of salt hey?
Good luck.
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Old 07-23-2009, 12:58 PM   #44
phitruong
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?

methink you folks are missing the point. forget about kicking in the head and stuffs like that. it's about train the body to do what you want it to do. if there is an opening to the head and my foot is conveniently available, i should be able to "take this foot and put on that side of the face" (billy jack). or if an opening for a shoulder strike or a hips strike or an elbow or a head-butt, i should be able to carry it out. or if there is an opening for iriminage or shihonage or whatever-nage, i should be able to take it without thinking about it. personally, i would go with systema, because those buggers can really teach aikido and karate folks how to move more relax and freely. their methodology would blend in well with aikido randori and freestyle. but then again what do i know, since i only got hit by them a few times which hurt like the ex-wife-of-pain.
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Old 07-23-2009, 04:59 PM   #45
Russ Q
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?

Hey all,

I was honoured to be a guest instructor at the local Shito-ryu gasshku this past weekend. Just prior to my session I was watching these fine karate folks doing some tanken dori. Very, very similar to aikido although, as one might imagine, more strikes and rougher take downs. I noticed a basic arm bar and shihonage as two techniques that really stuck out as similar. Also, their irimi was significantly more shallow than how I have been taught...but it was there. I'm glad I went early as it gave me a theme to work with...irimi.

Cheers,

Russ
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Old 07-29-2009, 09:55 PM   #46
Tomas Grana
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?

So.... yeah..... kicking.... and stuff.......

As it is usual on AikiWeb, it's been fun to watch the discussion stray steadily off topic and read people getting more and more worked up about who can kick whom in the head.....

I think in the end my body (and perhaps my mind too) is making the decision for me.... I'm just not cut out for 5+ practices a week, and weighing out 7+ years of aikido training vs <1 year of karate, fun as it may have been, well, it's an easy choice.

I'm still going to give some time to karate until my body firmly says "no", and I'll update if any have any.... updates.
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Old 07-30-2009, 02:49 AM   #47
justin
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?

Quote:
Russ Qureshi wrote: View Post
Hey all,

I was honoured to be a guest instructor at the local Shito-ryu gasshku this past weekend. Just prior to my session I was watching these fine karate folks doing some tanken dori. Very, very similar to aikido although, as one might imagine, more strikes and rougher take downs. I noticed a basic arm bar and shihonage as two techniques that really stuck out as similar. Also, their irimi was significantly more shallow than how I have been taught...but it was there. I'm glad I went early as it gave me a theme to work with...irimi.

Cheers,

Russ
I remember doing similar techniques back in the day now doing Aikido brings the memories back even more, however one point to your observations whilst the take downs may have looked rougher I dont think they where as Karate students you learn no form of ukemi what so ever or at least we never did so every take down seemed rough as none of us knew how to fall.
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Old 07-30-2009, 07:12 AM   #48
Marc Abrams
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?

Ushiro Karate (Shindoryu Karetedo) not only has throws and locks that are very similar to high quality Aikido waza, but the throws are done full speed on hard wood floors, so that they learn very good ukemi. Many Aikidoka and Judoka learn bad ukemi habits that would not have bad results on hard surfaces.

Last month, I was in Japan at a special training camp with Ushiro Sensei and his son and I went at each other all out, throwing each other (including sacrifice throws) onto hard wood floors. None of us got any bruises. Hard surfaces let you really know how your ukemi is!

Marc Abrams
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Old 07-30-2009, 01:11 PM   #49
Russ Q
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?

Hello Justin and Mark,

Justin, you're right...., the take downs did "look" rougher due to the lack of ukemi skills....

Mark, what a great opportunity to train in Japan with Ushiro Sensei! I agree that we aikidoka tend to get a little lazy with our ukemi (me, most definitely, included) and that training on harder surfaces will let you know very quickly where your ukemi needs to improve.

Cheers,

Russ
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Old 07-30-2009, 02:36 PM   #50
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?

Marc,

Does their (your) Ukemi tend to grab, hold, or stay connected more than maybe you might see in Aikido or Judo practices? That is, riding the fall down.

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