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Old 07-09-2009, 03:10 PM   #26
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Re: Words like God and Ki

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
In social company, never discuss religion and politics...and ki.

Anytime you challenge beliefs, you are bound to receive a strong reaction in defense of those beliefs.To challenge a belief caullously is both disrespectful and inflammatory; whether or not the belief is accurate is irrelevant. I think we could all use a lesson in manners when we approach such sensitive topics. To a lesser degree, I believe the same circumstances surround the belief in ki; either you believe in ki or you don't.

Aristotle classifies a type of audience which no orator can persuade and advices orators not to persue discourse with that audience since it will never succeed. I think the audience is very important to successful discussion about omnipotent beings and ki energy. Unfortunately, there will always be a troll whose anger towards arguing against a belief supercedes the fact he is not the targeted audience of the conversation and he will subsequently weigh in...
Sometimes jumping in the middle of danger with the violence of a flamethrower is the best move, especially when it means challenging beliefs, which are nothing more than opinions in dignified clothing.

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Old 07-09-2009, 05:19 PM   #27
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Re: Words like God and Ki

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Jon Reading wrote: View Post
Aristotle classifies a type of audience which no orator can persuade and advices orators not to persue discourse with that audience since it will never succeed. I think the audience is very important to successful discussion about omnipotent beings and ki energy. Unfortunately, there will always be a troll whose anger towards arguing against a belief supercedes the fact he is not the targeted audience of the conversation and he will subsequently weigh in...
Some thoughts:
You cannot tell which people belong to that group which might never be able to be reached...assuming it really exists (I sense a self-fulfilling prophecy here).
Segregating our thinking because it's difficult seems problematic to me. It certainly deserves a high degree of caution and sensitivity, but, as I see it, where two diametrically opposed camps exist, segregated thinking allows for a festering sore to deepen; outreach, on the other hand, can promote commonality. That is to say, I completely disagree with many views, but in talking with some of those who hold those views I began to sense the same humanity me and mine have and at least a begrudging respect began to form.
For me it's been easier to write people off when I've had no contact with them.

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Old 07-09-2009, 06:09 PM   #28
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Re: Words like God and Ki

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The words god and ki cause a lot of response...people get emotional and defensive when the words god and ki are used.
Mary
People get defensive because of fear. Written "holy" texts pertaining to God, most significantly the Bible and Koran, teach to love and fear God. In the movie Donnie Darko, Patrick Swayze's character speaks of fear and love as being polar opposites. Even though Jake's character disagrees and is "cool" for doing so, they in fact absolutely cannot coexist. Even after reading the entire NKJV Bible and Koran, I found myself left as a stranger to God. What we do not understand, we fear, out of one of the most basic human instincts - survival. Ki is mysterious as well, although I believe some have attained knowledge of its essence. Most people, on the other hand, who have heard of ki, fear it. It is pure fear of the unknown that results in "people get[ting] emotional and defensive when the words of god and ki are used."

For a fresh image of God, There should be no Aikidoka whom hasn't read Saotome's "Aikido and the Harmony of Nature." This ultimate wealth of Aikido knowledge as well as general wisdom just shouldn't pass anyone by.

Drew
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Old 07-09-2009, 07:37 PM   #29
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Re: Words like God and Ki

You are not going to experience ki by reading about it.
Mary
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Old 07-09-2009, 07:57 PM   #30
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Re: Words like God and Ki

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You are not going to experience ki by reading about it.
Mary
True.

Drew
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Old 07-10-2009, 12:00 PM   #31
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Re: Words like God and Ki

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Some thoughts:
You cannot tell which people belong to that group which might never be able to be reached...assuming it really exists (I sense a self-fulfilling prophecy here).
Segregating our thinking because it's difficult seems problematic to me. It certainly deserves a high degree of caution and sensitivity, but, as I see it, where two diametrically opposed camps exist, segregated thinking allows for a festering sore to deepen; outreach, on the other hand, can promote commonality. That is to say, I completely disagree with many views, but in talking with some of those who hold those views I began to sense the same humanity me and mine have and at least a begrudging respect began to form.
For me it's been easier to write people off when I've had no contact with them.
Sorry, I need to clarify what Aristotle was getting at... To pursue discourse with an oppposed group is to tailor the discussion to placate the opposition, which Aristotle advises against. Instead, he advocates pursuing the argument which will appeal to the persuasive group; that is, the group which may be turned to advocate for the argument in point. The discourse actually has nothing to do with the orator picking out and segregating the audience. Rather, its about the orator choosing the substance of discussion and seeing the discussion maintains its integrity for the duration of the oration.

It is basically advice to for debators to keep focus on the issue at hand and prevent opposing debators from occluding the issue and taking control of the debate. Constructing an argument does not have anything to do with segrated thinking, it has to do with creating an argument that can resist attacks to change topics from the core of the discussion. I argee with Mary here...most threads about religion and ki do not maintain the core discussion from the original post. They derail and digress into someone calling someone else something bad and Jun kills the tread.

To which I will add a comment which I think plays a role in all belief-based arguments: A belief transcends empirical evidence. A belief is so firmly fixed in one's being that it is undeterrable. So what is the point of arguing against a belief? There is no point. Yet in my first post I argue there are trolls more interested in arguing aginst beliefs then accepting the belief and discussing their perspectives of their own belief.

For example, Matthew says:
Quote:
That is to say, I completely disagree with many views, but in talking with some of those who hold those views I began to sense the same humanity me and mine have and at least a begrudging respect began to form.
I assume since we are talking about beliefs, Matthew intended to qualify his complete disagreements as relating to beliefs. His beliefs are not relevant to mine, nor can he argue to persuade me to change my beliefs. So while at best we may have discourse exchanging how we arrived at our convictions, there is no argument.

So here is the question, why are we consumed with arguing beliefs?

Last edited by jonreading : 07-10-2009 at 12:05 PM.
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Old 07-10-2009, 07:36 PM   #32
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Re: Words like God and Ki

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Jon Reading wrote: View Post
Sorry, I need to clarify what Aristotle was getting at... To pursue discourse with an oppposed group is to tailor the discussion to placate the opposition, which Aristotle advises against. Instead, he advocates pursuing the argument which will appeal to the persuasive group; that is, the group which may be turned to advocate for the argument in point.

The discourse actually has nothing to do with the orator picking out and segregating the audience. Rather, its about the orator choosing the substance of discussion and seeing the discussion maintains its integrity for the duration of the oration.
If Aristotle is simply saying, "maintain your argument; don't get side-tracked," then I agree. If he is saying, "don't tailor your arguments to placate (to any degree) your opponants' sensibilities," then I disagree. As it pertains to purely fact-based discussions I think it's pretty simple: your facts should be clear enough to support themselves and draw the support of those you are debating. Of course this requires all parties to be more interested in facts than in "winning." Where facts seem to support the opposing view, they must be worked into forming a new argument since fact-based arguments should be concerned only with the facts.

Quote:
Constructing an argument does not have anything to do with segrated thinking, it has to do with creating an argument that can resist attacks to change topics from the core of the discussion.
I agree.

Quote:
To which I will add a comment which I think plays a role in all belief-based arguments: A belief transcends empirical evidence.
One of the more fascinating "debates" to me has been that of global warming. I remember debating some peers who asserted it was a hoax cooked up by the leftist agenda. That was a belief which in many cases has been changed by the simple fact that on the whole, the globe has warmed a bit. So where a belief can be supported or rejected by evidence, I think it doesn't necessarily transcend the evidence. However, in cases like the spaghetti monster in the sky or the purple unicorn in the remotest of space, evidence will do no direct good, though it might force an adjustment in some other assumed corrolary.

Quote:
A belief is so firmly fixed in one's being that it is undeterrable. So what is the point of arguing against a belief?
Because there are aspects of a belief which might still be shaped. I know a person who grew up believing very firmly in his family's understanding of the Bible. I have another friend who was quite antagonistic of Christianity. He was able to affect certain doubts on the part of the first friend. From the skeptic's view, it wasn't pointless. There is no right or wrong here in my opinion, but one did argue against a belief with success. I also recall a fellow on TV describe his particular bent on Christianity suddenly changing once he learned to read in the original Greek. Here's another case where evidence of some variety changed belief. Belief is often viewed as unreasonable...and it often is, but reason can still be applied with success because it still often goes into the formation of beliefs.

Quote:
I assume since we are talking about beliefs, Matthew intended to qualify his complete disagreements as relating to beliefs. His beliefs are not relevant to mine, nor can he argue to persuade me to change my beliefs. So while at best we may have discourse exchanging how we arrived at our convictions, there is no argument.
I think I see what you're saying. Yes, i think we agree here, except I'd like to reiterate the idea that reason often plays a part in the formation of belief. Where there is no common ground to begin with, then there can be no argument, just an explanation.

Quote:
So here is the question, why are we consumed with arguing beliefs?
I think, because they're treated as facts and I believe we're compelled to treat them with similar kinds of explanations. Also, many beliefs are ascribed such a high degree of importance that we feel compelled to assert that importance upon others: "my belief is of the highest virtue, so I feel compelled to defend that virtue against perceived onslaughts." This is why doubt was often held as being just as bad as skepticism during the Holy Roman Empire...a gateway drug of sorts, leading to the very same evil.

...As I think I understand it anyway.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 07-12-2009, 02:48 PM   #33
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Lightbulb Re: Words like God and Ki

Hi all. I've been reading through the replies to this topic and it all reminds me of the "ki wars" on the Aikido-L list. They usually begin with someone from the Ki Society like me using Ki in a post or putting "extend ki" or "ki is extending" in their signature and someone else replying "how dare you mention ki to me. It doesn't exist, I tell you! It mustn't exist I tell you! My view of reality cannot absorb something that cannot be proven to exist by dropping it." Well, this is a bit of an exaggeration, but if you read between the lines, that is what the person is saying. Defenders of the Faith form opposing ranks and the battle is begun. They can get rather humorous or dangerously personal. But they are all symptomatic of something I have noticed in society since Watergate.

We as a society in the US have become more and more spiritually devoid. Oh, there are plenty of religious folk here, but even they are very materialistic. Just look at the memberships in churches. Those that are growing the fastest are those that focus on the physical realities...These are the Baptists and the Non-denominationalists. Some mega-churches put on big shows but they criticize the very spiritual beliefs that were dominant when their denomination was founded. Jesus isn't a divine being who brings salvation, but a very human man who brings the key to wealth. While the Catholic church still holds officially that miracles and divine visitations occur and even have a few "uncorrupted" corpses on display here and there, but the average layman has no more faith in Fatima or Lourdes than they do in UFOs or Bigfoot.

What these people all have great faith in is Newtonian Physics, Money, the solidity of bricks and the Religion of Science. That's right. Most lay people are more inclined to believe that every word out of a non-quantum scientist's mouth is Holy Writ. We have come to believe that we are god and that man is man made. We have lost the sense of wonder, the sense of the miraculous in the everyday. We miss the purpose of misogi or ki breathing. We miss the clear understanding that we are just a small piece in a big puzzle. We miss the Dharma, the truth. Believe it or not, but half of what Jesus said are koans...That's right, comparable to Zen Koans and just as "easy" to understand.

Right now, scientists and doctors from around the world are making great strides to proving the existence of Subtle Energies (Ki, Chi, Pranna) and how they apply to human healing. Right now, a woman named Lynn McTaggart, a reporter turned investigator is leading a world wide Intention Experiment. Her theory is if enough people focus intention on a target, it can be effected. So far we have targeted the Civil War in Sri Lanka and effects on polluted water. The Human Consciousness Experiment (from Harvard or MIT) has located random number generators (EGGs) around the world to see if events effect the local Consciousness field. In cases of fractures that do not heal within 3 months, Orthopedists can apply an electromagnetic generator that oscillates at a particular frequency and will heal that bone. There is a lot more going on in this arena but that is not germane to the topic at hand.

All of this is happening but you will not find out about it in mainstream media. What passes for media is more interested in what is wrong than what is right. They will show you the brick, but will not tell you that it is a proven fact that bricks are made up mostly of empty space.

It is sad that so many feel it necessary to back the debunkers, the "but one study shows" experts that refuse to see the evidence that there is a God and his Universe is a wondrous place full of marvels and life all surrounded in the Living Matrix or Ki. I hope and pray that those who choose not to see this reality will allow those who do the respect they themselves demand.

Happy Shugyo,

John B. Davis
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Old 07-13-2009, 12:46 AM   #34
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Re: Words like God and Ki

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John Davis wrote: View Post
We as a society in the US have become more and more spiritually devoid. Oh, there are plenty of religious folk here, but even they are very materialistic. Just look at the memberships in churches. Those that are growing the fastest are those that focus on the physical realities...the average layman has no more faith in Fatima or Lourdes than they do in UFOs or Bigfoot.
I'm a pretty non-materialistic fellow, but I appreciate the draw to materialism. It's comfortable; practical; you can touch it. You have something to show for yourself. God and ki are pretty ethereal.

Quote:
It is sad that so many feel it necessary to back the debunkers, the "but one study shows" experts that refuse to see the evidence that there is a God and his Universe is a wondrous place full of marvels and life all surrounded in the Living Matrix or Ki. I hope and pray that those who choose not to see this reality will allow those who do the respect they themselves demand.
I see the intricacies of order and have to wonder if there is God, some meta-purpose. I don't believe there isn't; I don't believe there is. I personally back debunkers because insofaras they debunk, they provide a service toward greater understanding. The trick as I see it is remembering the difference between improbable and impossible, fact and perception; remembering that perception comes entirely (or nearly so) about through some medium and is itself shaped by that medium. I do not see evidence of God. I see evidence of a wonderous thing: existance. It is so amazing that it seems quite possibly designed (for lack of a better word), but I do not forget that for all I know, it's an amazingly vast coincidence, and thus, entirely material.

...and search with awe for the spiritual through my navigation of the material.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 07-13-2009 at 12:54 AM.

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Old 07-13-2009, 11:05 AM   #35
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Re: Words like God and Ki

Quote:
If Aristotle is simply saying, "maintain your argument; don't get side-tracked," then I agree. If he is saying, "don't tailor your arguments to placate (to any degree) your opponants' sensibilities," then I disagree. As it pertains to purely fact-based discussions I think it's pretty simple: your facts should be clear enough to support themselves and draw the support of those you are debating. Of course this requires all parties to be more interested in facts than in "winning." Where facts seem to support the opposing view, they must be worked into forming a new argument since fact-based arguments should be concerned only with the facts.
If the presentation of empirical evidence were wholly the realm of argumentative discussion I would argee you you. However, it is al too easy to occlude a factual point. Since we are on the subject, here is a classic example of a tanget designed to occlude the issue at hand:
Person A: I believe there is a God. Prove to me there is no God.
Person B: Prove to me there is a God.
Person A offered an issue of debate and challenged B to provide evidence to support a conclusive statement. Person B responded by first ignoring the burden of proof and second offering a counter issue to tangent the argument.
If person A chooses to tailor her argument to address person B's response, she will have lost the issue at hand which will remain undiscussed; the burden of proof now shifts to person A and the initial issue is left unconcluded.

It is a shame, but too many arguments result in occlusive tactics to distract and tagent from the issue at hand. However, the nature of an argument is to present an issue and argue the merit of a conclusion derived from the argument; there is a burden of proof required to conclude an argument. If you do not present an issue to debate and assign a burden of proof to conclude the issue, you cannot have an argument. You may have a discussion, but you cannot have an argument.

Quote:
It is sad that so many feel it necessary to back the debunkers, the "but one study shows" experts that refuse to see the evidence that there is a God and his Universe is a wondrous place full of marvels and life all surrounded in the Living Matrix or Ki. I hope and pray that those who choose not to see this reality will allow those who do the respect they themselves demand.
I couldn't agree more. We (the US) are obsessed with de-constructionalism. As TMX, E and other gossip outlets can substantiate, the only thing more exciting that seeing someone succeed is seeing someone breakdown. I go so far as to say that I also think we are so envious of each other we would rather destroy those beliefs which we do not share than let them co-exist. "You can believe whatever you want as long as its what we believe too."

Debunking a fact and attacking a belief are two different concepts. Facts build truths, truths build convictions, convictions build beliefs. You want to change a belief? Re-order the fact pattern to alter the truths derived from those facts and work from the ground up.

Last edited by jonreading : 07-13-2009 at 11:07 AM.
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Old 07-13-2009, 02:01 PM   #36
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Re: Words like God and Ki

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
If the presentation of empirical evidence were wholly the realm of argumentative discussion I would argee you you. However, it is al too easy to occlude a factual point. Since we are on the subject, here is a classic example of a tanget designed to occlude the issue at hand:
Person A: I believe there is a God. Prove to me there is no God.
Person B: Prove to me there is a God.
Person A offered an issue of debate and challenged B to provide evidence to support a conclusive statement. Person B responded by first ignoring the burden of proof and second offering a counter issue to tangent the argument.
If person A chooses to tailor her argument to address person B's response, she will have lost the issue at hand which will remain undiscussed; the burden of proof now shifts to person A and the initial issue is left unconcluded.
I agree with the overall principle and would argue that people should only stray from a given point in order to include some form of direct address to it (e.g. roundabout answers). For example, if person B expected person A to say something like, "I can't," and intended to answer the initial assertion with, "well neither can I." Also, my sense of arguments is that the burden of proof is on the assertion. In fact, the more I think about it, I'd say person A is occluding the issue by instructing person B to prove something other than the initial assertion, the opposite...never mind the fact that it's very hard to prove something doesn't exist (impossible by my reckoning, but maybe I'm not familiar with a logical argument that proves otherwise).
Quote:
I couldn't agree more. We (the US) are obsessed with de-constructionalism. As TMX, E and other gossip outlets can substantiate, the only thing more exciting that seeing someone succeed is seeing someone breakdown. I go so far as to say that I also think we are so envious of each other we would rather destroy those beliefs which we do not share than let them co-exist. "You can believe whatever you want as long as its what we believe too."
I would argue this is ironic w/re: the classic American myths, but that it's something that has been around a long time and in roughly equal proportions in numerous societies. And, hey! What's this "we" stuff about envy?

Last edited by mathewjgano : 07-13-2009 at 02:10 PM.

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Old 02-12-2010, 09:19 PM   #37
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Re: Words like God and Ki

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John Davis wrote: View Post
Right now, scientists and doctors from around the world are making great strides to proving the existence of Subtle Energies (Ki, Chi, Pranna) and how they apply to human healing.
Wow. I couldn't agree more. Although undoubtedly, some of them are hoaxes, I think many of them are real. You would probably enjoy reading my other thread http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17690. It talks about the work of scientist named Cleve Backster, who is a pioneer in the field of bio communication. You will see what that is.

Quote:
mathewjgano wrote: View Post
I'm a pretty non-materialistic fellow, but I appreciate the draw to materialism. It's comfortable; practical; you can touch it. You have something to show for yourself.
Couldn't agree more. I have found, that over time, as we delve more into spirituality, we will prove for ourselves that it exists. When you actively engage in spirituality, with at least some faith, and try things outside of your comfort zone, miracles will happen. I can't emphasize this more.

To list an example: I once attended a special kind of ritual called a drum stalk. It is for those who are just beginning to listen to their heart. It involves doing nothing less that walking blindfolded through a forest, and following the sound of a drum. There are people who come through the forest (and we walk for a good 45 min) who come out without hitting a single tree. I'm not talking about 1 out of 100, I'm talking about every single person, hitting less than three trees. Everyone there, (about 30 people) reported being able to sense some kind of presence, and walking around objects.

They drugged us? No.

We could feel the temperature change from shadows? No.
(drum stalks are always done at night).

I have only done a few drum stalks, and they vary in success. Sometimes I hit two trees, sometimes it hit none. I actually find that when you are truly a beginner, its easier. After you've done it once, you develop a sense of what to expect, and that expectation interferes with listening to your heart. You later have to get rid of this expectation, and learn to listen to yourself. Although I have been getting steadily better, I have not reached this place yet.

I have shared my experience with the drum stalk, because I feel it may help to reinforce all of our under-siege beliefs. Even with the many miracles that have happened in my life, I still find myself questioning belief in the spiritual. I think this is the result of everyone telling me that I'm wrong. Active spirituality in an actively nonspiritual culture is a path of solitude sometimes, and perseverance.

So many people say that they will never believe in the spiritual until they see it with their eyes, and they challenge people who believe to show them. But they never will believe it because they will always find some way to disprove it. The only way to believe is to do it yourself. No one is going to "prove" it to you, except you.

Seek out those with spiritual knowledge; learn from them. Persevere, and you will receive undeniable proof.

By the way, if any of you would be more interested in learning about the drum stalk, ask me. The organizations that do it are widespread, and you may be surprised to find out that one may be literally an hour drive away. These Nature Philosophy Schools as I call them, teach survival, awareness, and a kind of native American philosophy. Most are non-profit, but if any aren't, someone has to eat right?





- Johann
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Old 02-12-2010, 10:46 PM   #38
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Re: Words like God and Ki

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
You are not going to experience ki by reading about it.
Mary
ok, I AM definitely being a bit of a stirrer here- but I am not malicious.

If this is true, then does this limitation indicate that Ki is not universal?
that it cannot be ignited by a cognitive or intellectual trigger?
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Old 02-13-2010, 02:15 PM   #39
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Re: Words like God and Ki

Quote:
Johann Baptista wrote: View Post
So many people say that they will never believe in the spiritual until they see it with their eyes, and they challenge people who believe to show them. But they never will believe it because they will always find some way to disprove it. The only way to believe is to do it yourself. No one is going to "prove" it to you, except you.

Seek out those with spiritual knowledge; learn from them. Persevere, and you will receive undeniable proof.
...but don't buy the pig in the poke, either. Until you do have the experience, neither believe nor disbelieve -- just accept what is.
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Old 02-14-2010, 03:18 AM   #40
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Re: Words like God and Ki

Quote:
Johann Baptista wrote: View Post

To list an example: I once attended a special kind of ritual called a drum stalk. It is for those who are just beginning to listen to their heart. It involves doing nothing less that walking blindfolded through a forest, and following the sound of a drum. There are people who come through the forest (and we walk for a good 45 min) who come out without hitting a single tree. I'm not talking about 1 out of 100, I'm talking about every single person, hitting less than three trees. Everyone there, (about 30 people) reported being able to sense some kind of presence, and walking around objects.

They drugged us? No.

We could feel the temperature change from shadows? No.
(drum stalks are always done at night).

I have only done a few drum stalks, and they vary in success. Sometimes I hit two trees, sometimes it hit none. I actually find that when you are truly a beginner, its easier. After you've done it once, you develop a sense of what to expect, and that expectation interferes with listening to your heart. You later have to get rid of this expectation, and learn to listen to yourself. Although I have been getting steadily better, I have not reached this place yet.

I have shared my experience with the drum stalk, because I feel it may help to reinforce all of our under-siege beliefs. Even with the many miracles that have happened in my life, I still find myself questioning belief in the spiritual. I think this is the result of everyone telling me that I'm wrong. Active spirituality in an actively nonspiritual culture is a path of solitude sometimes, and perseverance.
...
- Johann
Its a good example but could be made a better example by sending people through the field without the drum to set a kind of baseline. If there is a difference then you have something to talk about. Of course you need to randomise the participants, give the control group some placebo belief and excitement etc...

best,
dan

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Old 02-14-2010, 06:18 PM   #41
Johann Baptista
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Re: Words like God and Ki

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
...but don't buy the pig in the poke, either. Until you do have the experience, neither believe nor disbelieve -- just accept what is.
Good point. However, in order to experience it, you must have at least a basic acceptance/belief that it could work. Even if you're not sure whether you believe or not, you must eliminate that doubt during any spiritual activity because it will interfere. I guess this means learning to be a very open-minded skeptic.

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Its a good example but could be made a better example by sending people through the field without the drum to set a kind of baseline. If there is a difference then you have something to talk about. Of course you need to randomise the participants, give the control group some placebo belief and excitement etc...
Certainly. Many things could have been made better. Remember though, the drum is just a sound for the people to follow so they don't wander off and get lost.

Certainly we could have set it up so it conforms to the guidelines of a scientific experiment, but that would have destroyed the free spirit of the endeavor and made everyone feel like test subjects. No doubt the pressure to succeed could also have interfered with listening to their heart, after all, these people are complete beginners. The more secure they feel, the better. In the end, they're only out there to prove the spiritual to themselves, not for the skeptical onlooker. No offense intended

-Johann
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Old 02-14-2010, 06:25 PM   #42
Johann Baptista
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Re: Words like God and Ki

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Michael Fitzgerald wrote: View Post
ok, I AM definitely being a bit of a stirrer here- but I am not malicious.

If this is true, then does this limitation indicate that Ki is not universal?
that it cannot be ignited by a cognitive or intellectual trigger?
Certainly not! In fact, it is a part of our logical mind that guides us to seek the spiritual, otherwise, we would never have begun any kind of search. It is the same part, I believe, that tells you that there is more to life than the physical. But there is no way you can expect to gain firsthand knowledge of Ki, by imagining it while reading a book. A conscious attempt must be made to feel it and mindfully practice with it. Its like reading about an orange, as opposed to tasting it. Just my thoughts. I don't claim to understand Ki or anything.

- Johann
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Old 02-15-2010, 10:57 AM   #43
lbb
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Re: Words like God and Ki

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Johann Baptista wrote: View Post
Good point. However, in order to experience it, you must have at least a basic acceptance/belief that it could work. Even if you're not sure whether you believe or not, you must eliminate that doubt during any spiritual activity because it will interfere. I guess this means learning to be a very open-minded skeptic.
Bingo.
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Old 07-11-2010, 04:34 PM   #44
Hebrew Hammer
 
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Re: Words like God and Ki

Late to this party but a very enjoyable read...several things came to mind while reading this, particularly involve the arguments of Aristotle...reminded me of a political science book called 'Group Think' about the thought processes/group dynamics that led to the bay of pigs fiasco.

Secondly of God and Ki are really personal in nature, how they are perceived, embraced, empowered, and implemented are unique to the individual...why must you convince someone else of their existence? I don't believe in all uses of God and Ki but will not deny their ability to be a source of strength, happiness, and support to those who dabble in their uses. I think the nefarious uses of God and Ki in terms of POWER over others are a much greater danger to men and women.

I am obviously more skeptical of those who 'know' all the answers...usually the ones most likely to judge others are the most flawed themselves.

Stay Cut,

The Hebrew Hammer
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Old 07-19-2010, 04:44 AM   #45
DanTesic
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Re: words like god and ki

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Kevin Karr wrote: View Post
Re: "Spirit"

Too many words. Just train!
I concur.
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Old 07-19-2010, 06:20 PM   #46
Buck
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Re: Words like God and Ki

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Mary Malmros said : Well...this is where y'all bring out the boffer bats (or the bokken) and start whaling on me and yellling, "Mary, shut UP!" But does "spirit" have anything to do with "spirituality"? I think of "spirituality" as a connection with the divine, whether that be Allah or the kami or Jesus or the god in you. The usage of "spirit" in the martial arts, OTOH, has always given me the sense that it was a translation of a word that referred to a particular attitude and that the original had no connotations of the sacred. So, am I wrong about that?

This thought made me think.

The words god and ki cause a lot of response...people get emotional and defensive when the words god and ki are used.

If we could set that defensiveness aside and continue to communicate our thoughts while listening to others the real issues might be heard.

Being in the moment and accepting what every uke offers is sacred. This experience helps me connect to others in the outside world. Both god and ki are in the now. Aikido training deepens this experience for me making my life a sacred mysterious practice.

Mary
I think the hardest thing about Aikido especially in this area is the ambiguity of the terms spirituality, and ki which is left to interpretation. For us Westerners we want definitions and categories and such. We don't deal well with ambiguity. A older Japanese friend once told me the difference between the Japanese thinking and American thinking is the Japanese think in the opposite way Westerner's do. The Japanese see the world through a right hemisphere thinking and the Westerner's see it through the left.

I guess my point is this makes it really difficult, at least for me, to wade through the myths, symbolism, and abstraction of the Japanese and Aikido language. I want a definition too. I too can't be a piece of blank paper floating on the wind. I find that very frustrating as I believe there is no such definition of spirituality or Ki. And thus, no defined measures. That results in so many definitions and degrees of definitions.

I think the reason for the ambiguity of these terms was to be understood though experience. Once the proper experience guided by O'Sensei would result in understanding which would be more universal than now.

Last edited by Buck : 07-19-2010 at 06:24 PM.
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Old 07-22-2010, 04:06 PM   #47
Benjamin Green
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Re: Words like God and Ki

I think a lot of the ambiguity is disinformation. When you have charlatans telling people to 'extend Ki' in order to gloss over deficits either in the movement itself or in the understanding of that movement, then it's hard to credit anyone of using the term truthfully even when they are. Especially if you don't know what the term is meant to refer to in the first place.

With physics there's proof. Someone punches you in the face then what you're being taught doesn't work - at least not as advertised. With Ki if a movement doesn't work; well you're not extending enough Ki, do it for another ten years and it will work really well, we pinky-swear. Not that I'm saying it doesn't exist or anything like that, but due to its vague meaning and largely subjective experience it's a convenient term for those who are dishonest.
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Old 07-23-2010, 05:01 AM   #48
C. David Henderson
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Re: Words like God and Ki

FWIW, I think some of the ambiguity also reflects the fact that the idea of "ki" is a broad concept that comes up in different contexts in describing how the world works empirically but non-scientifically, generating recipes for how to cultivate the earth, orient a home, cure an ailment, defeat an opponent....

An inexact analogy: If we substituted the word "energy" for "ki," the OP in another current threat would be "does sunshine have energy in it?" If a martial artist had been introduced exclusively to the concept of "kinetic energy," the answer might seem to be "no," because the concept of "energy" is being used in a different context, even though sharing a common underlying definition.

David Henderson
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Old 10-28-2010, 04:28 PM   #49
graham christian
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Smile Re: Words like God and Ki

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Mary Malmros said : Well...this is where y'all bring out the boffer bats (or the bokken) and start whaling on me and yellling, "Mary, shut UP!" But does "spirit" have anything to do with "spirituality"? I think of "spirituality" as a connection with the divine, whether that be Allah or the kami or Jesus or the god in you. The usage of "spirit" in the martial arts, OTOH, has always given me the sense that it was a translation of a word that referred to a particular attitude and that the original had no connotations of the sacred. So, am I wrong about that?

This thought made me think.

The words god and ki cause a lot of response...people get emotional and defensive when the words god and ki are used.

If we could set that defensiveness aside and continue to communicate our thoughts while listening to others the real issues might be heard.

Being in the moment and accepting what every uke offers is sacred. This experience helps me connect to others in the outside world. Both god and ki are in the now. Aikido training deepens this experience for me making my life a sacred mysterious practice.

Mary
Hi Mary, well put. May I offer my equally attackable view. For me God is GOOD and every time anyone truly feels good they are feeling God in now and Ki is that energy that results from good decisions and desires and is known to you and I KINDNESS.
This may sound crazy to some or to many but it is what I teach.

Now others may attack with a sword of hate, with a sword of fear or even with a sword of rightness but the sharpest blade of all is the sword of kindness.
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Old 11-07-2010, 10:02 AM   #50
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Words like God and Ki

Ki is basically energy. There are different kinds of ki; fire ki, water ki, etc. But it is a value neutral term. Association of ki with emotions or values like goodness, implying that lack of ki is the opposite, well that is simply something some non-Japanese person made up.

One can be a thoroughly wretched person and use ki in ones technique. One can be a zen master and a paragon of compassion and have no idea how to use ki. I am sorry there is no essential connection here.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
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