Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Non-Aikido Martial Traditions

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-24-2009, 03:28 PM   #101
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Shiko Training

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
The two diagrams that are shown in your example; mine and the one Mike nabbed from Mantac Chia's book are different.
That's true. Mantak Chia's drawing is a good one of the front-view of the standard muscle-tendon channels/connections. If someone wants each of the muscle-tendon channels they can be found in a number of sources (like in Deadman) because this is the standard model of how the body movement and connections work. It's very detailed (the working) and the relationships are how the ki/kokyu strength works, down to the finest detail.
Quote:
My model comes from a training model used in DR for paired waza and solo training.
Note* I left out the connection across the chest and back (as well as several other connections) as that drawing was specific to a discussed example on the doku and not meant to convey all details. (See more on the upper cross below)
OK, so you're acknowledging pretty much what I said, then. Basically, what I said was that the "X" model won't go very far, yet I notice a number of people have begun using it as the theory basic from which "spiralling" evolves; my comment was that the "X" theory does not really explain how spiralling works in the body so before things go too far, people should discuss the finer points of "how to" or they're going to run into problems down the road. Don't get me wrong.... as I've noted before even coarse jin skills are better than none and along the same lines a "coarse" approach to some "spiralling" is fine, too, but ultimately why not save problems and get the theory right for all future understanding and progress? Since the theory was worked out in such detail so many centuries ago and it's the same gold-standard that Ueshiba draws some of his douka from, why not be clearer about the difference between a training method and the way the spiralling, etc., actually work in conjunction with the forces of ki/kokyu/qi/jin?
Quote:
As for that post discussing the doku

Hidden in Plain site-revisited
The same paths lead to the use of spiral energy in the body in paired and solo training. It is only a part of a more complicated training involving uses from even a simple self-rotation, to spiral energy from feet to groin to waist to spine to hand along two different lines that also converge differently front and back. It is important to know what is connected to what and what to move to draw-in on and push against and engage, so you don't end up vulnerable with guys that know what you're doing and who will toss you due to the way you train.. I rarely talk about this as well- but there are pictures that display one exercise to specifically do this in DR. It is expressed in photos that Takeda, Hisa, and Ueshiba all curiously decided to "pose in." They are standing there in an exercise form putting the spiral paths -in your face. One of which will be appearing in Ellis new book.
The internet gadflies, in spite of their incessant assertions, and guesses really don't know much of anything about the existence of that training model in DR, nor of moving from the waist to use spiral energy -albeit in a more simplistic manner in various Koryu weapons either.
I don't claim to know anything about DR training methods and I frankly don't care all that much. Why? Because if good DR (or any other koryu or jujutsu derivative) really uses the basic ki-strength forces (and the complexities that follow) then ultimately DR *must* conform with the traditional movement and logic of qi/ki/jin/kokyu that everyone else uses. It's just a matter of how purely and completely they use these things. When you start talking about "spiralling", ultimately you're forced by the logic to go toward six-harmonies movement and the diagrams similar to the one I used. So you appear to be agreeing with me (albeit disagreeably); if you wanted to use your "training model" to talk about "spiralling", I was simply asking you to describe how it works. Since it's only a "training model" rather than a complete method for "spiralling", it's a good thing I brought it up, eh? Some people were misunderstanding.
Quote:
I don't really care much at all about this crap. I was initially hesitant to share, but over time I thought it might be a fair exchange of information. What initially sounded great-has really turned into more ego and protectionism of a different order, now with paying study groups and ranking and private forums and the building of "ditto" heads and more typical Budo divisiveness. I was hoping for better.
Note* I have never mentioned this except VERY recently and only do so for clarity because I am beginning to see some attempts at revisionist history going on here to boost certain agendas being established recently.
Dan, go back and look at all the posts I've made with detailed explanations, descriptions, and diagrams on just AikiWeb. Look at the posts where I've asked you direct and friendly questions about assertions you've made and you've simply bailed. I'm not bothering to ask you how the "X" theory of motion works as you get into more complex motion because you've indicated now that you agree with the point I was making. I think by clarifying that point you're going to save some followers of the "Dan Harden Method" some time in the future. And isn't that the best thing to do?

Regards,

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2009, 08:43 PM   #102
Upyu
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 591
Offline
Re: Shiko Training

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I've been traveling and training.

It's worth noting that the example Rob cited from me was in relation to self-rotation, and non dedicated weight transfer- not spiraling. Also worth noting from that same post is once again Robs discussion of Arks then current teaching of the left-to-left and right-to-right axis in the body. Which I stated earlier and Mike denied it was true. Just as I said earlier here is yet another quote by Rob from three years ago and you can find it on E-budo and in the early Aunkai videos on Shiko training. A training method which I clearly disagreed with and Ark apparently decided to change in his latest video.
Just thought I'd clarify the whole bit on the X-connections.
FWIW Ark has always talked about the X-connections, and those early writings were more based on my own limited understanding, rather than from Ark not knowing/not teaching.
Same side connections tend to be easier to understand and feel, which is what happened, and that same understanding is what spilled into my writing.
Same thing with spiraling, conserving energy, keeping the load "in the body" at all times etc, Ark's has always talked about it, but at the time my body wasn't conditioned, so even though he talked about it, I didn't write about it.

For those reading my earlier writings, they probably deserve an update, but due to time constraints I haven't been able to touch them. That being said, they're best taken as a glimpse into someone at the beginning stages of training, figuring stuff out etc, and shouldn't be taken as a complete understanding of what Ark was teaching at the time.

M2C
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2009, 11:20 PM   #103
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,508
United_States
Offline
Re: Shiko Training

Quote:
Eric Joyce wrote: View Post
Dan, you said you used this in Judo and MMA and refined it over the years to where if someone wanted to throw you (let's say harai ogoshi) that the internal training you have done and the way you conditioned your body over the years...that you are able to resist the thows? Not muscling but using your body in a way that neutralizes tori's throw? Even when the 3 principles of kuzushi, tsukuri and kake are executed as one?
I would say "not" IF you ever get kuzushi to begin with. Not having met Dan yet, I can't speak for him, but having gotten hold of Akuzawa, I'd say, go ahead and get all the kuzushi you want: good luck. I wasn't able to effect any kind of kuzushi on him. And from what Dan says, you tend to end up putting kuzushi on yourself when you're trying to do it to him.

You can't do kuzushi tsukuri and kake, much less kime when you never accomplish the kuzushi.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2009, 01:28 AM   #104
Tim Fong
 
Tim Fong's Avatar
Dojo: Aunkai
Location: California
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 175
Offline
Re: Shiko Training

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
Just thought I'd clarify the whole bit on the X-connections.
FWIW Ark has always talked about the X-connections, and those early writings were more based on my own limited understanding, rather than from Ark not knowing/not teaching.
To second Rob's comment-- when I first went to Japan in March of 2007, Akuzawa discussed the X-connection during dinner. It was during the time that I interviewed him for the article that ultimately appeared on the Aikido Journal website. Rob and a number of other people were there at dinner too.

Best,
Tim
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2009, 01:45 AM   #105
Upyu
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 591
Offline
Re: Shiko Training

Quote:
Tim Fong wrote: View Post
To second Rob's comment-- when I first went to Japan in March of 2007, Akuzawa discussed the X-connection during dinner. It was during the time that I interviewed him for the article that ultimately appeared on the Aikido Journal website. Rob and a number of other people were there at dinner too.

Best,
Tim
Actually I remember going down the whole "Namba walking is uber kewl!" route... (people like Kono were publishing a deluge of books on the subject and I briefly bought into it)
Ark told me that it was pretty much a waste of time...I should've listened to him from the beginning
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2009, 02:43 AM   #106
Tim Fong
 
Tim Fong's Avatar
Dojo: Aunkai
Location: California
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 175
Offline
Re: Shiko Training

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
Actually I remember going down the whole "Namba walking is uber kewl!" route... (people like Kono were publishing a deluge of books on the subject and I briefly bought into it)
Ark told me that it was pretty much a waste of time...I should've listened to him from the beginning
Yeah I remember that . Spent most of 2006 and 2007 doing it. Oh well right?

Last edited by Tim Fong : 06-25-2009 at 02:47 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2009, 07:36 AM   #107
Budd
 
Budd's Avatar
Dojo: Taikyoku Budo
Location: Williamsville, NY
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 931
United_States
Offline
Re: Shiko Training

I don't think tangents can be totally avoided with this type of training. You can't be so afraid to fail that you never truly experiment - at the same time, you have to get better and better at identifying what you're attempting to train while making sure it conforms to "the rules"
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2009, 03:20 PM   #108
thisisnotreal
 
thisisnotreal's Avatar
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 693
Offline
Re: Shiko Training

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Josh
The two diagrams that are shown in your example..are different. My model comes from a training model used in DR for paired waza and solo training.
Note* I left out the connection across the chest and back (as well as several other connections) as that drawing was specific to a discussed example on the doku and not meant to convey all details.
Hi Dan,
Thank you for your response. A lot in there.
Budo..ya gotta love it? I'd say humanity. Take it or leave it. That may well be partly why so many of those old hermetic dudes went ascetic and just left it all behind. I think it is part of the reason O-Sensei didn't teach it openly and directly. Got sick of it. I am left a bit melancholy about it. But I am honoured to have learned so much about this...I wouldn't have poked around and tried to learn; as I wouldn't have known about the gems in the muck. Overall a plus, but it comes at a cost. That is for sure. But then, what isn't?
That said, again, I am grateful specifically to you, Mike and Rob who really hung it out on the line. I am still puzzled as to why you three made the effort. As intense, and as long as it was. You guys getting a commission or somthin'?

ok; well enough about that.

About the schematics
Thank you for highlighting the differences. I thought the clue behind your pic was the 'joined by the breath of aiki' indicating that something different was in fact being shown. I wasn't sure until you said it; and i feel there is more still that i have not grasped in the body.

Quote:
..there are pictures that display one exercise to specifically do this in DR. It is expressed in photos that Takeda, Hisa, and Ueshiba all curiously decided to "pose in." They are standing there in an exercise form putting the spiral paths -in your face.
About the In-Yo face'ness about the posing
Sorry; that is a really bad pun. right?
I think that you can only be talking about this< stance

Quote:
Hidden in Plain sight-revisited
The same paths lead to the use of spiral energy in the body in paired and solo training. It is only a part of a more complicated training involving uses from even a simple self-rotation, to spiral energy from feet to groin to waist to spine to hand along two different lines that also converge differently front and back.
I think that here; you are referring to something you spoke of in the >Push Test 02< thread. here<

The context was "Pushing", and the lessons to be learned. To me, the key part is this
Quote:
How does it help make incredible aiki-age rising energy
Aiki-sage sinking and sending over energy
How does it join the both of those in use
How does it help develop winding energy joining the two up and down and in and out.
How can it be the birth place of aiki-power that is useble and instant making kuzushi on contact and capturing center in Shiai
I think here you are talking about the same thing as the winding path, and the same as the in-yo-face pictures. I have no understanding of this in the body, however(yet). I will continue to look. I could post my answers to your rhetorical questions; but I think I would be repeating myself. I do not know how it helps develop winding energy in joining the 2 up and down and and out. They are clues, to be sure. And I do not blame you one iota if you don't want to explain it. I just thought that you hung the gem out there...and wanted you to know that it is highly appreciated and valued.

Quote:
I was hoping for better.
I was originally going to say that I remain hopeful. Part of me does. Part of me is old enough now to know that if your faith is in men, you will be let down. eventually. But there is good with the bad. Almost everything in this life is like that: Mixed. I hear you brother.

Quote:
Anyway back to more worthwhile discussion
Thank you for always keeping on track. And for the foundational nature of your posts. I never quite thought of it as the "Dan Harden method" but more like notes and signposts from someone who has been further down the path. A lot of concrete 'do this' , 'look for this', 'beware of', 'check yourself', 'be honest'. This is a rarity on the internet, and in life in general. Thank you.

Quote:
It is not the same movement as the one-line samurai walk that leaves people vulnerable in areas of Koryu combatives.
Nanba walking. I had come to think of it as an extreme learning tool. So exaggerate the outer body that the inner body becomes (at first) completely ignored; and then forces recognition of it, by contrast. But i don't think it's good even for that, too much.

Quote:
and moving from the hips in this supposed "one-line" Samurai model (see image at bottom of page and come back) This not the way a bushi moved in continuous cutting on a battlefield. The movement
The image didn't come thru; is it worth posting?

Quote:
But somehow, I am sure that certain people will show up a few years from now claiming to know that too, and to have been "discussing it" for years
Yeah. F* it though. F* 'em too.

Quote:
Budo...ya gotta love it.
Cheers
Dan
Don't know.
Cheers,
Josh
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2009, 03:26 PM   #109
thisisnotreal
 
thisisnotreal's Avatar
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 693
Offline
Re: Shiko Training

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post

...albeit disagreeably...
Mike


Hey Mike,
Thanks a lot for the Deadman reference. The gent wrote a lot. A LOT!
It seems like a hell of a tip to me. Could you narrow it down to a single exceptional reference? Maybe one that is an overview of the logic?
If not, no worries.

I'll tell you a secret...Jim Jarmusch (one of my favourites) is a heck of a director...and did a great movie called Dead Man...which I forgot about
until i read your post. Something tells me you would very much like that movie. I also like Ghost Dog, but that is a different story.

Cheers,
Josh
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2009, 06:58 PM   #110
thisisnotreal
 
thisisnotreal's Avatar
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 693
Offline
Rei

Hi,

This is a fluffy opinion piece and can be skipped by anyone looking for 'solo training'. This is all just my 2 cents; and not worth a whole lotta anything. ok? Just some thoughts by some turkey.

I posted the last 2 in a hurry and a couple of things bug me.
Crap ; i should know better , but i posted in haste before i left work.
I think it sounded kind of ass-kissing and i regret that. I was only trying to be encouraging.

I also am honestly not sure about the quotes and the pictures. They are 2 things i don't understand; but intuition told me they are related. Just a gut feeling of sameness...doesn't mean i am not completely out to lunch. I may likely be (again)...but you gots to follow your hunches. I have trouble with the 'up & over' ; i called it a knife-edge; and for me it remains so. I cannot 'pull' or send over it. yet.

Also; I really am appreciative of Mike's efforts, for whatever that is worth. Wanted to make that crystalline. Thank you Mike. They have been absolutely exceptional as well; even more now; as I repeat (yet again) the re-review. Dan & Mike; have changed the face of Aikiweb (and I betya Aikido(TM) as well), as far as I am concerned. They are in a different spirit; and I feel written to different audiences, for the most part. In my own stupid way I suppose i am looking for resolution; as I end.
Mike can be a hard-ass. Sometimes you hate those profs; but then later come to see the value. And the personal cost and true effort. Sometimes I feel like when he pulls out a tongue-lashing on somebody (mostly on other sites!) it's like an angry professor pissed off at the childlike half-attempts of some 'students'. Sometimes there are gems; but sometimes it gets pulled off onto QiJin; which is frustrating as f*k. I do not think it should be this way; my opinion. Mikes posts are a little bit less accessible, at the beginning. But I think he was writing all of his things with a retrospective in mind. A looking-back perspective. I guess that is the wisdom of being on the web for so many years. Looking back I can definitely see a trail of gems too. I missed them. I think Mike is usually aiming at those that know already. Also, I did not mean to infer in the slightest that the Deadman was a 'rare' offering. SOrry. I'm stupid tired; and need to step back. too much ki imbued into this. . I do not know if the pointed revisionist history is aimed at him or not. I hope not; but don't know. but life is f*n short; and shouldn't be spent like that if it is. that much is clear to me.

That being said; I do not know the history nor the somewhat sensitive and complex relationships between all the players. Things are rarely simple. I would like to think of myself as outside of all of that. Just some lucky schmuck that was in the right place, at the right time, to talk to some exceedingly rare people.. ...a jester in court daring to speak aloud. I do know life is short and fragile, as i said. These players have tried to give a hand up, in their different ways, and I have added my voice, for whatever it's worth, to theirs. I am trying to buy a 'lottery ticket' for everybody. Making difficult things as clear as I can. I spent a long time on walkabout trying to figure it out. Pointing out the jewel of a bodyskill is a study in it's own right; and can and will keep you healthy. Tighten your loosening joints; realigning your frame, spine, hips, arms, legs. Improving circulation, etc. A worthwhile pursuit; as long as you don't lose yourself. It's just another thing you can do with your body (i.e. like neglecting it). I want the best for everybody. It's not always possible.
On the other hand; i am quite literally nobody;so who cares what i want. I know it.
Personally speaking; I know that there is a lot of intensity, a lot of intelligence, a lot of effort on the other side of these messages. And it is respected by me.
I know all you guys are trying as hard as you can.
And I do love you for it. (In a manly way!)

With respect and gratitude to all participants,
Josh
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2009, 01:40 AM   #111
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Shiko Training

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
Actually I remember going down the whole "Namba walking is uber kewl!" route... (people like Kono were publishing a deluge of books on the subject and I briefly bought into it)
Ark told me that it was pretty much a waste of time...I should've listened to him from the beginning
Quote:
Tim Fong wrote: View Post
Yeah I remember that . Spent most of 2006 and 2007doing it. Oh well right?
Both myself and others pegged it a wrong number years ago when it was being promoted by certain (no surprise here) Japanese teachers were promoting it. Unfortunately, people will accept quite a bit from teachers with Japanese and Chinese faces.Ellis has a hilarious poem he wrote about this and other guys re-inventing modes of movement.
You can't effectively use weapons this way in movement. Although it can fool people who do the one-stop / one-step, mode of cutting. The idea of it being "Samurai movement" has never been accepted as a way to move. Isn't it funny to see some modern Japanese teachers- who's arts had nothing to do with the Samurai-promoting a "Samurai" way of movement that has, for the most part, been rejected by the those teaching the actual Samurai arts of Japan. Oh well.
It's more in keeping with modern recreationism. A modern fad perhaps created some teachers simply searching for answers to questions they had about more powerful movement. And some dojo are inviting teachers in to experiment with this; yet another style / method / approach in their own search. Thus repeating the pattern. It sometimes tough to watch people starting out on a path that others have seen through and walked away from. But all too often, it just can't be helped.
Cheers
Dan
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2009, 01:43 AM   #112
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Shiko Training

Josh
I won't attach an image of a living person and then discuss their movement here.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 06-26-2009 at 01:51 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2009, 02:45 PM   #113
Allen Beebe
Location: Portland, OR
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 530
United_States
Offline
Re: Shiko Training

I've attached a pic of how we do Shiko in Portland.
I think the gentleman in the picture is a former Mayor BTW.

If one studies the posture carefully I think one will find there are many clues hidden there!



Allen
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Copy of ExposeYourselfToArt.jpg
Views:	172
Size:	19.0 KB
ID:	642  

~ Allen Beebe
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2009, 03:03 PM   #114
Thomas Campbell
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 407
Offline
Re: Shiko Training

Quote:
Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
I've attached a pic of how we do Shiko in Portland.
I think the gentleman in the picture is a former Mayor BTW.

If one studies the posture carefully I think one will find there are many clues hidden there!



Allen
The clues are in plain sight if you're the statue.

Indeed, that was Bud Clark, former Mayor of Portland.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2009, 12:41 AM   #115
Walker
 
Walker's Avatar
Dojo: 光道館・叢雲道場
Location: Pacific Wonderland
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 219
United_States
Offline
Re: Shiko Training

Underage boys... Flashing... Underage girls...
We sure know how to pick mayors in Portland.

-Doug Walker
光道館・叢雲道場
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2009, 06:41 PM   #116
thisisnotreal
 
thisisnotreal's Avatar
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 693
Offline
Re: Shiko Training

what is in-yo ho?
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2009, 08:21 PM   #117
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: Shiko Training

literally? yin-yang method...

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2009, 08:27 PM   #118
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Shiko Training

In yo is Japanese for Yin Yang
Ho means method
There is a breath-power method in Daito ryu meant to connect and then develop the connections of; the fascia of the hara and the legs to the hara and to make it mobile and it is called "Aiki, in yo ho." It coincides with spiral work running through the body with some sophisticated ways to manipulate force.
In a nut shell it is best to think that anything you ever do in the body needs to be supported by another counter force to keep in you in balance, and there are many ways to do that; both in solo training and then in myriad ways for connecting to other people.
It can be quite a daunting task that takes many years to work, and a hell of a lot of fun.
Cheers
Dan
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2009, 09:39 AM   #119
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Shiko Training

So much for writing something and not checking. What I meant to say was...
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
In yo is Japanese for Yin Yang
Ho means method
There is a breath-power method in Daito ryu meant to connect and then develop the connections of; the fascia of the arms and the legs to the hara and to make it mobile and it is called "Aiki, in yo ho." It coincides with spiral work running through the body with some sophisticated ways to manipulate force.
In a nut shell it is best to think that anything you ever do in the body needs to be supported by another counter force to keep in you in balance, and there are many ways to do that; both in solo training and then in myriad ways for connecting to other people.
It can be quite a daunting task that takes many years to work, and a hell of a lot of fun.
Cheers
Dan
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2009, 01:49 PM   #120
thisisnotreal
 
thisisnotreal's Avatar
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 693
Offline
Re: Shiko Training

Thank you.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2009, 03:17 PM   #121
thisisnotreal
 
thisisnotreal's Avatar
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 693
Offline
Re: Shiko Training

/sup guys
Just some thoughts.. I was thinking about the point ‘Hoping for better'.

Maybe to go forwards we have to go backwards? It may be all that's left. ... how it began.
Quote:
This< thread is outstanding & fascinating. Shiko @ #25 onwards. Some valuable insights about shiko, ki, breath, training etc..
Maybe everything that needs to be said, *has* been said.
..or maybe just everything that *will* be said..

What is the point?
Over time; The points were; This stuff exists; work hard; listen in the body; find a teacher; learn that there is much here; that much of it is different although seemingly the same; that many people claim to know; but don't; that many don't teach; although they know (or don't know). That many talk, and many BS. People are people, in MA, IMA and elsewhere. Gems are buried on aikiweb and e-budo; but there is a lot of muck. That people abuse authority and trust. It is a bodyskill to stay healthy; with lots of benefits; fighting with it is different than knowing about it. It takes a tremendous amount of agonizingly precise work. People hoard information. It is becoming more widely known. People mystify it. People lie about it. What'd I miss?

Forwards exists… certainly for the individual.

Good luck in your training.
Cheers,
Josh

PS. Stance: look at the leg's external rotation and eversion of his feet(not the mayor's). I think it's a ki pump. Can feel it all the way to the psoas..gets lost after that..

Pps by the way all my posts are trademarked, all rights reserved. Don't even look at them.
^__^

Last edited by thisisnotreal : 06-29-2009 at 03:21 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2009, 11:08 PM   #122
Andrew Prochnow
Location: MA
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 10
United_States
Offline
Re: Shiko Training

Dont forget that some are born with it and some taught themselves .

Andrew Prochnow
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2009, 11:30 AM   #123
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Shiko Training

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
/sup guys
Just some thoughts.. I was thinking about the point ‘Hoping for better'.

Maybe to go forwards we have to go backwards? It may be all that's left. ... how it began.

Maybe everything that needs to be said, *has* been said.
..or maybe just everything that *will* be said..

What is the point?
Over time; The points were;
This stuff exists;
work hard;
listen in the body;
find a teacher;
learn that there is much here;
that much of it is different although seemingly the same;
that many people claim to know; but don't;
that many don't teach; although they know (or don't know).
That many talk, and many BS.
People are people, in MA, IMA and elsewhere. Gems are buried on aikiweb and e-budo; but there is a lot of muck.
That people abuse authority and trust.
It is a bodyskill to stay healthy; with lots of benefits
fighting with it is different than knowing about it.
It takes a tremendous amount of agonizingly precise work.
People hoard information.
It is becoming more widely known.
People mystify it. People lie about it.
What'd I miss?
Knowing about it is vastly different that really knowing it on the inside.
Knowing it on the inside is vastly different than being able to use it against someone else who also knows it on the inside.
Fighting with it is different than knowing it on the inside.
There are myriad ways to express it from grabs to throws to counters ot throws and punches, to punching and kicking and moving to set up throws-that are not all the same and will never be learned from just doing shiko. It is more complex than that.
Cheers
Dan
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2009, 05:54 PM   #124
HL1978
Dojo: Aunkai
Location: Fairfax, VA
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 424
United_States
Offline
Re: Solo Training

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
Hey Hunter,
Given that I'm an ass and will (/have been) trying anyway, would you have any thoughts you could share?
Sorry to put you on the spot. No worries either way.
Cheers,
Josh
Sorry for the long wait for a response

The short form of it:

At my current level of understanding there are several ways of preforming shiko. The first one is using tension/structure. Later on other methods may be used to move the body and reliance on the first methods is de-emphasized. Those second methods are beyond the scope of this post.

The elements to work on when you first start shiko are:
1)maintain the upper/lower cross at all times

2)Use opposite side tension to "pull" the body. For example when your arms close and your body moves to the side, don't just lean over to move the body, rather use the extended arm to pull the body over to a point where you hip is in line with the heel and shoulder. Do not move the hips past this point.

3)When the body bends over, you pivot about the hip socket. Maintain a connection between the upper/lower cross and you won't bend at the waist. To initiate the leg raise, don't move the leg. Likewise the bend that one sees may initially be started by the outstretched arm. Keep pulling that arm as far as you can. You will find that the body starts to go towards the floor and the unsupported leg will rise of its own accord in order to maintain balance. Only go as far as you can while maintaining your balance and the connections between the upper and lower cross.

Eventually as a result of keeping the cross and these constant stretches you will start to feel certain feelings like that of a stretch/compression which will start to move the body of its own accord. The important thing here is to keep them within the body and within the shape of shiko. There are a few places where you will start to feel them, later on they will expand throughout the exercise.
1) After you preform the close/hand slap (which will later on be powered similarly) and rise up, keep constant front/back opposing tension like that in mabu or tenchijin.
2) as you rise keep your arms "pulled" forwards. As you rise and open you might start to feel the arms get pulled outwards, use this pulling sensation to power the opening.
3)You might feel a similar sensation when you drop the arms. At first if you drop the arms slightly before sinking you might feel them compress and pull your self downwards,
4) You will likely feel the same sensation at the beginning when you close the arms before the sideways shift. It is important to keep this tension within you so that this feeling powers the shift to the side, Do not let it twist your body outwards during the leg raise!

There are other elements which can be worked on in shiko, but the above are just a few things to work on initially. Someone who practices shiko in the above manner will look completely different than someone who is using each limb on its own to copy the shape of shiko.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido of Northern VA Seminars - Doran-sensei in Northern Virginia, March 2015



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
George's Short Guide to Cross Training George S. Ledyard External Aikido Blog Posts 2 06-11-2009 03:42 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 12 Peter Goldsbury Columns 32 05-16-2009 07:05 PM
Knife Randori Videos ChrisHein Training 308 05-10-2008 03:07 PM
Training: Separate the Sexes? Jermaine Alley General 326 03-21-2008 01:51 PM
Resistance training overview: the four basic levels G DiPierro Training 17 11-04-2007 04:18 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:26 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate