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Old 06-22-2009, 10:02 PM   #76
Mike Sigman
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Re: Shiko Training

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
...and being pragmatic...may i ask, bottom line, what does it matter?
Is it that you cannot 'lean' on the spiral line across the body? What is the worst mistake you'd make with this assumption?
I have no idea what relevance "leaning on a spiral line" has to do with this... that one you own. In terms of mistakes, where to start? There are too many. Ultimately, you have to start modifying an "X" in order to account for some of the things that functionally arise or to explain some of the more sophisticated methods of developing power. But maybe Dan has a more sophisticated explanation of his "X" figure.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 06-22-2009, 10:08 PM   #77
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Re: Shiko Training

Quote:
Jang Choe wrote: View Post
I'm not sure what you mean by side-to-side axis and front-to-back axis. Can you elaborate on that?
Hi,
Not sure if i'm completely off on this. But what I mean is:
I remember somewhere reading about not using the hip flexors to raise the leg in shiko. That if that happens we have reverted to local muscle. Hip flexor action is almost exclusively F-B axis.
So the understanding is we are to use something else then to raise the leg in that portion of shiko. I am thinking of this as the body stabilized in the side-to-side axis.
Use of the hip flexors and ultimately bending the knee in squat position is the body aligned in a F-B sling/axis. I think this is the end of the stomp portion.
There must have been a moment of transition between these postural extremes. I think that transition is at that hand-turn-over moment. Could be wrong tho..What do you think?
Josh
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Old 06-22-2009, 10:40 PM   #78
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Re: Shiko Training

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I have no idea what relevance "leaning on a spiral line" has to do with this... that one you own. In terms of mistakes, where to start? There are too many. Ultimately, you have to start modifying an "X" in order to account for some of the things that functionally arise or to explain some of the more sophisticated methods of developing power. But maybe Dan has a more sophisticated explanation of his "X" figure.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
these are ideas. these are photons off a screen. what is 'it'?
enlightenment or delusion, who is to say (douka?)
leaning. like leaning into a sling. like leaning into the wind. but *in* your body.
i don't whink i own smish. wtf. http://www.coachr.org/outer.htm and you shouldn't either.
paul chek. sling system.
leaning into the various lines. front-to-back or side-to-side.
have you ever read of pavel tsatsouline?

Hey Mike,
You trying to milk Dan?
Did you hear the song?
geez.
Do you think you could take him in a fight to the death?

Quote:
There are too many.
Sureley then you wouldn't mind one example so I could understand?

Last edited by thisisnotreal : 06-22-2009 at 10:45 PM. Reason: f*n hoping you guys knowin i'm joking
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Old 06-22-2009, 10:54 PM   #79
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Re: Shiko Training

Hey Mike,
Do you remember this< ?
I challenge anyone to show something sigman said that was nicer than that.
Take 'et easy boys.
Cheers and Thanks.
Josh
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Old 06-22-2009, 11:09 PM   #80
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Re: Shiko Training

Hi Rob John,
I've never addressed you directly before, but wanted to say thank you for all the information that you've posted. You dedicated yourself a lot to explaining it and doing so in person extraordinarily well according to all reports. good job. And really bringing it out in the open,representing and getting so many amazing threads going. So much amazing posts from you, dan and mike. was a privilege to eavesdrop in on those exchanges. was pretty nice for you guys to stick your neck out like that.
hey, Are you on the dvd's dude?
Cheers man.
Josh
p.s. do you have any general advice you'd give knowing what you know now?
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Old 06-22-2009, 11:39 PM   #81
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Re: Shiko Training

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Well, I did "throw a bone". I published the pertinent drawing relating to the muscle-tendon channels of the body that relate to "ki strength" and how it is conveyed through the body, connected/controlled at the dantien/hara (the unlabeled arrow), and so forth. The basic muscle-tendon channel configurations are what its all about, down to the finest detail. Remember, I said that once you grab a portion of this logic involving ki and movement, the rest inexorably follows. In fact, it gets quite complex, the whole theory of movement, and it involves not only the main dantien/hara/one-point, but also the secondary dantiens at the chest and at the perineum.
are you saying something like (call me crazy)
1. a dantien can create torque on the body. Can generate or dissipate. we have multiple such dantiens. (even the eye-one? serioulsy?>)
2. each dantien can create torque on the body
3. alignment (i.e. orientation), timing and intensity of each dantien can effect each other. the net out-coupling of dantien vector-axes combinations are the world-vector. can move this rapidly while in motion.
4. can resonate dantiens in time.
5. next crazy thing.
6. add weapons
7. etc.

no way. way?
Josh
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Old 06-22-2009, 11:51 PM   #82
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Re: Shiko Training

British Martial Arts? Good laugh...
cheers,
Josh
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Old 06-23-2009, 12:10 AM   #83
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Re: Shiko Training

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
It's tricky - ..

Graphs don't do a lot for me unless....
Budd, Try this one<
Josh
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Old 06-23-2009, 12:12 AM   #84
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Re: Shiko Training

funny how that all went. i didn't quite expect that either.
Josh
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Old 06-23-2009, 09:19 AM   #85
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Re: Shiko Training

Mike, I think I see everything a bit differently today.
Thank you.
Josh
p.s. hope you're not mad. meant in jest.
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Old 06-23-2009, 11:06 AM   #86
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Re: Shiko Training

Josh, slow down, man, it's hard to keep up with everything you're writing.

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
Did you buy the book [Anatomy Trains]?
No, I've mostly just read the website. The material seems pretty good, but nowhere near perfect, for "showing" or explaining all the internal stuff. But I think it's nice for quick and easy explanations like I've given here.

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
I remember reading about the following... in my mind this is the 'tomei no chikara' the body is to be capable of. Clear path. Clear power.
It talked about how in the human body there mostly are vertical lengths of undifferentiated fascial channels...It talked about how the horizontal ones can cause problems for people, when they slouch, or otherwise assume postural distortions known as 'common compensation patterns'.
The, uh, let's call them "common break points" are an issue, but not what (I think) you're talking about. The idea of "clear power" is related, but not quite the same thing.

I don't want to seem like I'm blowing you off, but this is really a topic unto itself, and to fully explain it would require more time and energy than I have to spend right now. If you look around this site and a few other sites, you can find more info.

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
Among other things:
I think what you are talking about is an exercise targeted to activate and control a line thru the gluteus medius.
Uh, maybe, probably, I'm not sure. I'm not very good with individual muscles.

But the exercise is a lot bigger than just one muscle. You first have to develop what is sometimes called "connection", which relates to the ability to "convey" force through muscle/fascia, rather than "create" force like we normally do with muscle. Once you learn to do that, and get all the various muscle-fascia lines "linked up", then you can start learning to coordinate them all together. The exercise I outlined is aimed at developing a particular type of coordination.

Again, that starts getting into a different---and big---topic.

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
I think of this as 'the effective load'. What do you think?
I'm not sure what exactly you mean, but I wasn't talking about "load". When you begin to develop the internal stuff, you actually begin to experience some weird, pseudo-mystical feelings, such as "stuff" moving around though the body or under the skin. There are a couple (physiological) theories about why that happens, but there are no hard answers right now.

--Timothy Kleinert

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Old 06-23-2009, 12:03 PM   #87
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Re: Shiko Training

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Timothy Walters Kleinert wrote: View Post
I'm not sure what exactly you mean, but I wasn't talking about "load". When you begin to develop the internal stuff, you actually begin to experience some weird, pseudo-mystical feelings, such as "stuff" moving around though the body or under the skin. There are a couple (physiological) theories about why that happens, but there are no hard answers right now.
Hi Tim,
With all usual disclaimers in effect (..These are only my thoughts. No guarantee.)
I think what you are talking about is the feeling of a traveling blood/pressure/flexing wave modulated by your body. The same pressure/tension wave mentioned, with respect to ki, in Fune Kogi Undo. The feelings of "pseudo-mystical stuff", as you said it, are what I take to be your awareness of the blood flow, the compression due to the external load, and the ground paths (jin paths?) thru the loaded body, all combined, effectively, into one focused point, and the interplay between these factors.
The physical load is transferred (in/)to the Effort System, as mediated by your intent (/spirit), structure(/dantien) and effort(/ki).
Then it becomes the effective virtual load, as borne and experienced by your body (and mind).
What do you think?
Josh
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Old 06-23-2009, 02:24 PM   #88
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Re: Shiko Training

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Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
With all usual disclaimers in effect (..These are only my thoughts. No guarantee.)
I think what you are talking about is the feeling of a traveling blood/pressure/flexing wave modulated by your body. The same pressure/tension wave mentioned, with respect to ki, in Fune Kogi Undo. The feelings of "pseudo-mystical stuff", as you said it, are what I take to be your awareness of the blood flow, the compression due to the external load, and the ground paths (jin paths?) thru the loaded body, all combined, effectively, into one focused point, and the interplay between these factors.
The physical load is transferred (in/)to the Effort System, as mediated by your intent (/spirit), structure(/dantien) and effort(/ki).
Then it becomes the effective virtual load, as borne and experienced by your body (and mind).
What do you think?
Nope.

There are associated feelings of "pressure", "tension", blood flow, etc., but not in the ways you're talking about. For the time being I am quite happy with my original statement---but maybe with a bit more emphasis on the "might" part, since feelings change over time:
If you're focusing on the connection between the legs ... then it might feel as if "something" is being "passed" from the leading leg to the trailing leg through the lower abdomen.

--Timothy Kleinert

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Old 06-24-2009, 10:30 AM   #89
Eric Joyce
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Re: Shiko Training

Very interesting discussion so far and it has peaked my interest a bit.

A question to those who have been doing this internal type training or whatever you want to call it for awhile...how has this type of training helped you in defending yourself against a violent attack? Has this type of training allowed you to do things (neutralize threats) quickly, efficiently, effortlessly, etc.? As I read thru these threads, the question in the back of my mind is, other than developing strong, core connections within the body for maximum efficiency, how will this type of training help me against a resisting attacker hell bent on hurting me? Maybe the answer is right there and I don't see it, but any help in explaining it to me would be greatly appreciated.

Eric Joyce
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Old 06-24-2009, 10:56 AM   #90
Lee Salzman
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Re: Shiko Training

Quote:
Eric Joyce wrote: View Post
Very interesting discussion so far and it has peaked my interest a bit.

A question to those who have been doing this internal type training or whatever you want to call it for awhile...how has this type of training helped you in defending yourself against a violent attack? Has this type of training allowed you to do things (neutralize threats) quickly, efficiently, effortlessly, etc.? As I read thru these threads, the question in the back of my mind is, other than developing strong, core connections within the body for maximum efficiency, how will this type of training help me against a resisting attacker hell bent on hurting me? Maybe the answer is right there and I don't see it, but any help in explaining it to me would be greatly appreciated.
Roughly: increased relaxation, speed, agility, reactivity, strength, coordination, and balance.
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Old 06-24-2009, 11:03 AM   #91
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Re: Shiko Training

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Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
Roughly: increased relaxation, speed, agility, reactivity, strength, coordination, and balance.
Thanks Lee. Do you have any examples of how you used it in an attack? Or better yet, can you provide a baseline of how this type of training helped you in class with say...knife defenses? Sort of a before and after thing. Unless you have an example where you actually used this in an actual attack. I would like to hear them.

Eric Joyce
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Old 06-24-2009, 11:22 AM   #92
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Re: Shiko Training

I've been traveling and training.

Josh
The two diagrams that are shown in your example; mine and the one Mike nabbed from Mantac Chia's book are different. My model comes from a training model used in DR for paired waza and solo training.
Note* I left out the connection across the chest and back (as well as several other connections) as that drawing was specific to a discussed example on the doku and not meant to convey all details. (See more on the upper cross below)
As for that post discussing the doku
Quote:
Notes from the translator
The aiki cross were two lines in an X- intersecting vertically at their center.
While the translator believes Ueshiba meant to express Izu and Mizu as in/yo he also makes note of the true definitions as springing forth or gushing water. I find the dual meaning interesting. Also interesting were Ueshiba describing the yin and yang of opposing hands.

I can find no descriptions of him covering that the same side hand/foot. They are best treated as opposites as well. Which is of course demonstrable in the cross. FWIW, this is also a path for the way I do Shiko
Cheers
Dan
Hidden in Plain site-revisited
The same paths lead to the use of spiral energy in the body in paired and solo training. It is only a part of a more complicated training involving uses from even a simple self-rotation, to spiral energy from feet to groin to waist to spine to hand along two different lines that also converge differently front and back. It is important to know what is connected to what and what to move to draw-in on and push against and engage, so you don't end up vulnerable with guys that know what you're doing and who will toss you due to the way you train.. I rarely talk about this as well- but there are pictures that display one exercise to specifically do this in DR. It is expressed in photos that Takeda, Hisa, and Ueshiba all curiously decided to "pose in." They are standing there in an exercise form putting the spiral paths -in your face. One of which will be appearing in Ellis new book.
The internet gadflies, in spite of their incessant assertions, and guesses really don't know much of anything about the existence of that training model in DR, nor of moving from the waist to use spiral energy -albeit in a more simplistic manner in various Koryu weapons either.

Since you brought up Mikes point about the upper cross-(although it was not related to my point in that post) you can read more about my own thoughts on "the upper cross" in an earlier post by Rob Jon in the training section here- wherein he asked permission to quote my example of "the upper cross" in use
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...den#post149419
Quote:
The following is a quote from Dan Harden, mma'er who uses Japanese Koryu Weaponary to condition his body for Vale Tudo.
While this was originally written for an Aikidoh forum, he describes very succinctly the body mechanics elaborated above.
******************************************************************************
About the cross or the back / chest area:
Imagine shoving a drive shaft or any pole into a hole in the floor then slide a peg through it horizontally. Next grab the peg as it sticks out left to right with both your hands.
Now imagine the hole you stuck the pole into is attached to an engine with 1000 ft. lb. of torque and I turn it on.
When you get out of hospital with your broken arms healed you can understand how powerful it can be if:
1. the pole is your spine
2. the peg is tension held across the back and chest
3. and the engine is the ground through your legs through your hips that turn the spine or pole at the waist.
Everything attached to it is launched without you dedicating much to the effort in a forward direction. It makes powerful kicks, punches, throws, and shoves without you giving much to lose or have someone take your balance.
You are wholly dedicated without being dedicated.
The frame is strengthened through connections throughout the body which can be strengthened further still through breathing and pressures there. You are using the ground for power. Of course, it is the way you are connected that allows this power to move through the whole body from foot to hand.

The above example can be quite effective in ground grappling for reversals when you are on your back with someone on you giving you weight. You hold tension in the cross and turn using the ground from your feet through the hips, turning the spine like a drive shaft .....which......... turns the peg (your scapula area). What's attached to the peg? Your shoulders and arms.
I have seen guys lifted off the floor and thrown. The key is to not try to throw them but to maintain connection and just turn into yourself.
Breathing and certain other things add to this.
It's worth noting that the example Rob cited from me was in relation to self-rotation, and non dedicated weight transfer- not spiraling. Also worth noting from that same post is once again Robs discussion of Arks then current teaching of the left-to-left and right-to-right axis in the body. Which I stated earlier and Mike denied it was true. Just as I said earlier here is yet another quote by Rob from three years ago and you can find it on E-budo and in the early Aunkai videos on Shiko training. A training method which I clearly disagreed with and Ark apparently decided to change in his latest video.
Quote:
***Three Axes***
Stabilization of the chest area is directly related to recognizing and
stabilizing three axes.
First, let's define what the three axes are.
The left and right axes are two imaginary lines running from the left
shoulder to the left hipjoint and knee, and the right shoulder to the right hipjoint and knee.
The center axis, as one might imagine, runs from the crown of your head down between your legs.
As noted by me earlier, my mention of the way I train with "cross-line" paths in Shiko were explained to Rob on E-budo in threads there and on the phone. Later my term "cross-line" appeared in their latest video with the axis training now changed to an X pattern. It's all there to read and then listen too
I wish to make this clear
I don't really care much at all about this crap. I was initially hesitant to share, but over time I thought it might be a fair exchange of information. What initially sounded great-has really turned into more ego and protectionism of a different order, now with paying study groups and ranking and private forums and the building of "ditto" heads and more typical Budo divisiveness. I was hoping for better.
Note* I have never mentioned this except VERY recently and only do so for clarity because I am beginning to see some attempts at revisionist history going on here to boost certain agendas being established recently.

Anyway back to more worthwhile discussion
Another factor involved here is just how that unarmed training model of cross-line work, turning and drawing through the waist to leave the weight centered and non dedicated coincides with how (many) Koryu cut with weapons-more particularly heavy weapons. Any movement with the hips leading- can become a dead, and overly- dedicated movement- antithetical to the requirements of mobility and power in many Koryu. Drawing with the waist "through" the groin to move the hips and legs and how to best connect to the spine and is of paramount importance for continuous movement while moving freely without unnecessary change. It is not the same movement as the one-line samurai walk that leaves people vulnerable in areas of Koryu combatives. Not the least of which is cutting with weapons all day and needing to move forward, backward, turning while cutting to both sides. While that type of spiraling is more simplistic to the body forms (expressed elsewhere) they are never-the less a first step in physical understanding of "change" and the use of power.
You cannot move well with weapons in the "single-line" model at all. It is no small wonder that you see the more modern derivatives; aikido, some DR, Iaido, Kendo, with their single step kata cutting from and moving from the hips in this supposed "one-line" Samurai model (see image at bottom of page and come back) This not the way a bushi moved in continuous cutting on a battlefield. The movement -expressed by that teacher here:
Quote:
Here an Edo period woodblock print depicts a samurai cutting down with naginata (a staff with a blade). Notice how the body is kept in line, the right arm coordinated with right side of the body and weight dropped into the cut -- a perfect example of the hitoemi principle. Also, notice how the body position parallels that of Okabayashi Sensei's sword cut shown above.
Is not as definitive as one would have you believe. And taking hints from a wood block print is probably not a very good idea at all for his self admitted re-invention of a form. It is worth noting that this understanding is right in keeping with Akuzawa's earlier teaching on left-to-left / right-to-right axis work and is most certainly NOT the way many Koryu move in practice and practical application. It is more of a modern re-creation or understanding probably gleaned from looking from the outside-in to try and imagine the mechanics that are involved in moving from the inside out.
Interestingly enough you can see some in Koryu utilizing this principle and not even realizing it and others teaching it, and still others teaching it as a macro of what they are "looking for" in a students movements while not being able to clearly define the mechanics to do so. It becomes a work in progress for the student to "find."
I've not read this being discussed anywhere either, and the idea was quite a surprise to some active experts in Koryu. But somehow, I am sure that certain people will show up a few years from now claiming to know that too, and to have been "discussing it" for years, and will tell me I got the information and a "recent" understanding of it ...from them. Not from training and teaching for twenty years.
Budo...ya gotta love it.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 06-24-2009, 11:23 AM   #93
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Re: Shiko Training

Quote:
Eric Joyce wrote: View Post
As I read thru these threads, the question in the back of my mind is, other than developing strong, core connections within the body for maximum efficiency, how will this type of training help me against a resisting attacker hell bent on hurting me?
Internal training allows you to release a large amount of power at a very short distance. Think one-inch punch (or zero-inch punch). So this ability really increases the effectiveness of atemi, joint locks, throws, etc.
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Old 06-24-2009, 11:31 AM   #94
Lee Salzman
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Re: Shiko Training

Quote:
Eric Joyce wrote: View Post
Thanks Lee. Do you have any examples of how you used it in an attack? Or better yet, can you provide a baseline of how this type of training helped you in class with say...knife defenses? Sort of a before and after thing. Unless you have an example where you actually used this in an actual attack. I would like to hear them.
Only thing I've been attacked with is the body, and only in training situation (i.e. fists, elbows, legs, knee, hips). At the time, the training partners were in the 'after' category, and I was/am in the 'before' category. So I can't honestly say whether any of those qualities I listed would help me in a knife fight.
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Old 06-24-2009, 11:47 AM   #95
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Re: Shiko Training

Quote:
Eric Joyce wrote: View Post
Very interesting discussion so far and it has peaked my interest a bit.

A question to those who have been doing this internal type training or whatever you want to call it for awhile...how has this type of training helped you in defending yourself against a violent attack? Has this type of training allowed you to do things (neutralize threats) quickly, efficiently, effortlessly, etc.? As I read thru these threads, the question in the back of my mind is, other than developing strong, core connections within the body for maximum efficiency, how will this type of training help me against a resisting attacker hell bent on hurting me? Maybe the answer is right there and I don't see it, but any help in explaining it to me would be greatly appreciated.
I think Mike's earlier admonition that just having internal skills doesn't make you a great fighter (Dan and Rob and others have also made some similar comments) is well put. I'm not usually in to talking about the "feats" that this kind of training makes one capable of because I think people spend too much time training to replicate a feat with incomplete understanding of how they have to rewire the body so that the feat "happens".

Having said that, I do want to address some of your points and maybe make a few of my own in addition. I would talk about these skills on a very gross level as "conditioning". Basic cardio condition is so important in martial arts from my perspective that I'm amazed when I visit schools where nobody really breaks a sweat. Having competed in combative sports a good chunk of my youth as well as been in a few altercations as a result of general foolishness and different jobs I've had (not mutually exclusive, either), I feel pretty confident in saying that being in shape can be a huge deciding factor in how well you perform in certain types of combative engagements. So the idea that you can do anything to someone else without effort is a bit laughable to me.

What I will say is that if you spend the right amount of time conditioning your body to automatically respond to different kinds of stresses and stimuli, you can perform feats that "seem" effortless . . but I don't think that's an uncommon result from people that have spent long periods training any specific skills (carpentry, horse wrangling, etc.). Some of the specific skills (based on my beginning understanding of internal training) that can come from IS training are a feeling of much greater physical strength, speed and balance because:

1) You connect the body together to always move as a coordinated unit - this is not based on timing or mystical awareness - it's a conditioned skill so that you automatically are more efficiently using more of your body's gross musculature (and other conditioned stuff) and connective tissue when performing routine tasks.

2) It takes less observable time for you to move and generate power (either as a strike or throw) because you don't need as much of an observable windup or torque to receive, return and generate power and optimizing the use of gravity pulling you down and the ground pushing you up - instead of local muscles you usually would think of in the arms, shoulders, even hips and legs (like in lots of krotty) that are often used instead. This is tricky because lots of folks think they are not using local muscles to drive physical actions when they are (myself included many, many times) and I think it's a major inhibitor to real progress. A much safer assumption in my opinion is to assume that you are using local muscle and as someone shows you how, work more and more on eradicating it in favor of pure and clean power generation.

3) Here's the biggest favor, in my opinion - is how you learn to read and manipulate central equilibrium. There's plenty of traditional views on this but I tend to simplify my thoughts around the basic up/down/right/left/front/back directions to start, then add in the infinite ways to combine them and you can get a sense of how sophisticated it can get. You learn to control it inside yourself and then make an external force part of you, still under your control (the aiki of allowing an attacker's force to defeat them by joining you to them - into one unit - that you still direct) - but it is far from effortless and requires an immense amount of training and conditioning to get anywhere with it. It can most obviously be observed when you push on someone and 1) You feel like you are pushing against solid ground OR (even better in my opinion) 2) You push on someone and as soon as you touch them you feel like your balance is being mucked with (pushing yourself away, feeling crushed down, etc.). In a strictly combative sense, this can help a great deal with absorbing and avoiding strikes, locks, throw attempts, etc.

So, it can be basically body conditioning yourself in such a way that you can hit and throw with greater power, but less overt movement. You can receive and redirect power/techniques/whatever applied unto you more readily and your sense of balance is improved. It's independent of martial arts techniques, it's training a way to "be" (so much so that I sometimes think people that are used to training via copying an external form have a harder time with getting the goods). It doesn't guarantee invincibility, there's limits on every skill it bequeathes, but it is fun and produces results.

It seems like there's a built in intelligence quotient on how far one is going to get with it. It also seems like your ability to be hyper critical and honestly assess yourself and your progress are also going to be major (and potentially limiting) factors in said progress.

These are interesting times, though, because the cat is definitely out of the bag in that a lot of this stuff got missed somewhere (independent of what "style" you do). A lot of people are working on things now and what results they yield will be fun to watch (and participate in). More and more people are meeting and getting together to see who's doing what (and forming conclusions, rightly or wrongly, that hopefully can be openly debated rather than forming factions).

In some ways it's irrevocably tied into what martial art one is doing - even though I think there's a core set body principles that apply no matter what "style" or "system" you're doing. So that can create complications in actually training the basic skills, but I think that's a natural part of the growing pains in this stuff (maybe) becoming wider spread. There's lots of bandwagon hopping and status grabbing, part of the problem being that your rank in aikido or some other art being no indication whatsoever that you have any skill, knowledge or ability in "this stuff" - and I do think it's enough of a game changer that there's some legit concern over how (or if) this will even be incorporated into one's "mainstream" practice.

But like I said, it's interesting times and I'm no expert, teacher, etc. . . just an enthusiastic participant that's been fortunate (through good luck and creating opportunities) to get some exposure and is now trying to work hard (while still having a family, job, life, too, ha).

Probably not what you're looking for in an answer (and damn did I go on a bit), but it's my take on things at present (ever subject to change and re-edumafication).

Best/Budd
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Old 06-24-2009, 11:49 AM   #96
JangChoe
Join Date: Aug 2006
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Re: Shiko Training

Quote:
Eric Joyce wrote: View Post
Very interesting discussion so far and it has peaked my interest a bit.

A question to those who have been doing this internal type training or whatever you want to call it for awhile...how has this type of training helped you in defending yourself against a violent attack? Has this type of training allowed you to do things (neutralize threats) quickly, efficiently, effortlessly, etc.? As I read thru these threads, the question in the back of my mind is, other than developing strong, core connections within the body for maximum efficiency, how will this type of training help me against a resisting attacker hell bent on hurting me? Maybe the answer is right there and I don't see it, but any help in explaining it to me would be greatly appreciated.
It hasn't helped me at all since I never got into those situations. Even if I did, I would try to just talk myself out of it, or as a last resort, just use my gun and shoot the guy.
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Old 06-24-2009, 11:51 AM   #97
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
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Re: Shiko Training

Quote:
Eric Joyce wrote: View Post
Thanks Lee. Do you have any examples of how you used it in an attack? Or better yet, can you provide a baseline of how this type of training helped you in class with say...knife defenses? Sort of a before and after thing. Unless you have an example where you actually used this in an actual attack. I would like to hear them.
Eric
Bear in mind that some of us actually learned it and tested it as we refined it in Judo and MMA over the years.
If you go waaay back on E-budo, the Aikido mailing list and jujutsu mailing list you will find there was a misunderstanding prevalent in those days as well that this equated to the "Ki tests" and other marginally useful training models in DR and Aikido that were known then.
You can read the words of certain Koryu teachers and well known DR students arguing that aiki was useless in a pressured environment, since a stress induced adrenaline dump would negate the "fine motor skills" needed to make aiki work in a fight. I argued vehemently-(the posts are all there) that this has nothing to do with fine motor skills it is a body quality that just simply-is, and that secondarily the use does not go away due to stress. And third, not everyone "loses it" in confrontations. They think and function and move. The way you train can have an effect on the way you perform.
It was about as successful then as talking about it..argue, argue, argue. It was obvious where there understanding was then. To be honest it doesn't appear much has changed in talking to them now.
Some people will forever see things as kata and "you do this and I'll do that." Talking about this type of training is like talking to them in a foreign language

Use
The body quality you build is antithetical to the way most people will try to throw you. You become heavier, and more mobile at the same time. Frequently guys will exhaust themselves trying to throw you. Your body will not behave, receive force, transfer weight in ways they are use to feeling. A very good side benefit is that when you are no longer one-side-weighted in movement it becomes very difficult for them to sense where your weight actually is (which is more mobile then normal) so there is no telegraphing for movement, kicks and strikes. all while THEY feel transparent and obvious in their own movements.

Example: When grappling or driving force you can feel someone stepping or changing to kick or move, right? Against someone with internal skills it becomes very hard to move them, or they move in a way that "feels" very fast. The reason it feels so fast is that your senses do not pick up on it like they normally would. Now consider if they want to hit or kick you. You don't feel or sense the weight transfer and bam...you got a knee in the guy or face, or if you are in close, with no discernable wind-up bam you got some very heavy hands and elbows doing some serious damage.
If you were trying for a throw you might try to get under hooks and separate the shoulders /chest from the waist and drive or lift. That becomes hilariously more daunting to an internal adept as he is connected differently and can drive your own force back into you to so you either feel like you are pushing on a wall, or suddenly trying to lift someone who weights a ton or you find you can't grab the ground with your feet and generate a drive. I am assume you are converscent with a fit-in? It causes guys to constantly have to change up looking for postional dominance that never comes-thus leaving you open to feel and make openings of your own. You know that feeling of trying for throw and everything clicks and you feel like you threw yourself trying to throw a guy? That happens to them far more than it usually does when trying to throw someone with these skills.
Contrary to some popular misunderstandings it is NOT rooting and stationary. The body quality is highly mobile and flexible. A common comment I receive is that when tryong to throw me guy lose their feet. They become light because I am alsways under them even when I am over them! They feel a lifting force making it hard to get in on me. But this is instantly changed to heaviness in the blink of an eye.
Last, it is the lack of a need to "wind-up" that allows an internal guy to weight your arms and body and make openings for the hits to keep on coming.
None of the above matters if the person doesn't learn to fight. You have to learn to fight to use it in a fight. Otherwise you're kidding yourself.
Last but not least, it doesn't make you invincible or any such nonsense, but it is one hell of a plus. It isn't a tool in your tool kit- its the tool box.
I cannot stress enough to people though, that if they don't train to use it in a fight, they shouldn't kid themselves that they suddenly will be able to.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 06-24-2009 at 12:05 PM.
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Old 06-24-2009, 12:00 PM   #98
Eric Joyce
Dojo: Budoshingikan
Location: Gilbert, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 179
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Re: Shiko Training

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
I think Mike's earlier admonition that just having internal skills doesn't make you a great fighter (Dan and Rob and others have also made some similar comments) is well put. I'm not usually in to talking about the "feats" that this kind of training makes one capable of because I think people spend too much time training to replicate a feat with incomplete understanding of how they have to rewire the body so that the feat "happens".

Having said that, I do want to address some of your points and maybe make a few of my own in addition. I would talk about these skills on a very gross level as "conditioning". Basic cardio condition is so important in martial arts from my perspective that I'm amazed when I visit schools where nobody really breaks a sweat. Having competed in combative sports a good chunk of my youth as well as been in a few altercations as a result of general foolishness and different jobs I've had (not mutually exclusive, either), I feel pretty confident in saying that being in shape can be a huge deciding factor in how well you perform in certain types of combative engagements. So the idea that you can do anything to someone else without effort is a bit laughable to me.

What I will say is that if you spend the right amount of time conditioning your body to automatically respond to different kinds of stresses and stimuli, you can perform feats that "seem" effortless . . but I don't think that's an uncommon result from people that have spent long periods training any specific skills (carpentry, horse wrangling, etc.). Some of the specific skills (based on my beginning understanding of internal training) that can come from IS training are a feeling of much greater physical strength, speed and balance because:

1) You connect the body together to always move as a coordinated unit - this is not based on timing or mystical awareness - it's a conditioned skill so that you automatically are more efficiently using more of your body's gross musculature (and other conditioned stuff) and connective tissue when performing routine tasks.

2) It takes less observable time for you to move and generate power (either as a strike or throw) because you don't need as much of an observable windup or torque to receive, return and generate power and optimizing the use of gravity pulling you down and the ground pushing you up - instead of local muscles you usually would think of in the arms, shoulders, even hips and legs (like in lots of krotty) that are often used instead. This is tricky because lots of folks think they are not using local muscles to drive physical actions when they are (myself included many, many times) and I think it's a major inhibitor to real progress. A much safer assumption in my opinion is to assume that you are using local muscle and as someone shows you how, work more and more on eradicating it in favor of pure and clean power generation.

3) Here's the biggest favor, in my opinion - is how you learn to read and manipulate central equilibrium. There's plenty of traditional views on this but I tend to simplify my thoughts around the basic up/down/right/left/front/back directions to start, then add in the infinite ways to combine them and you can get a sense of how sophisticated it can get. You learn to control it inside yourself and then make an external force part of you, still under your control (the aiki of allowing an attacker's force to defeat them by joining you to them - into one unit - that you still direct) - but it is far from effortless and requires an immense amount of training and conditioning to get anywhere with it. It can most obviously be observed when you push on someone and 1) You feel like you are pushing against solid ground OR (even better in my opinion) 2) You push on someone and as soon as you touch them you feel like your balance is being mucked with (pushing yourself away, feeling crushed down, etc.). In a strictly combative sense, this can help a great deal with absorbing and avoiding strikes, locks, throw attempts, etc.

So, it can be basically body conditioning yourself in such a way that you can hit and throw with greater power, but less overt movement. You can receive and redirect power/techniques/whatever applied unto you more readily and your sense of balance is improved. It's independent of martial arts techniques, it's training a way to "be" (so much so that I sometimes think people that are used to training via copying an external form have a harder time with getting the goods). It doesn't guarantee invincibility, there's limits on every skill it bequeathes, but it is fun and produces results.

It seems like there's a built in intelligence quotient on how far one is going to get with it. It also seems like your ability to be hyper critical and honestly assess yourself and your progress are also going to be major (and potentially limiting) factors in said progress.

These are interesting times, though, because the cat is definitely out of the bag in that a lot of this stuff got missed somewhere (independent of what "style" you do). A lot of people are working on things now and what results they yield will be fun to watch (and participate in). More and more people are meeting and getting together to see who's doing what (and forming conclusions, rightly or wrongly, that hopefully can be openly debated rather than forming factions).

In some ways it's irrevocably tied into what martial art one is doing - even though I think there's a core set body principles that apply no matter what "style" or "system" you're doing. So that can create complications in actually training the basic skills, but I think that's a natural part of the growing pains in this stuff (maybe) becoming wider spread. There's lots of bandwagon hopping and status grabbing, part of the problem being that your rank in aikido or some other art being no indication whatsoever that you have any skill, knowledge or ability in "this stuff" - and I do think it's enough of a game changer that there's some legit concern over how (or if) this will even be incorporated into one's "mainstream" practice.

But like I said, it's interesting times and I'm no expert, teacher, etc. . . just an enthusiastic participant that's been fortunate (through good luck and creating opportunities) to get some exposure and is now trying to work hard (while still having a family, job, life, too, ha).

Probably not what you're looking for in an answer (and damn did I go on a bit), but it's my take on things at present (ever subject to change and re-edumafication).

Best/Budd
Hey Budd,

Thank you for that explanation. It helps me to understand and put things into context a bit. I haven't specifically been doing any internal arts exercises/training at all. However, I do workout and do a lot of core training and some yoga that has helped me to some degree with my movements, speed, expending less energy, having flexibility and elasticity, balance and having the cardio to keep going. I don't know if its the right type of training, but something seems to be working...for me at least.

I appreciate everyones comments.

Eric Joyce
Otake Han Doshin Ryu Jujutsu
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Old 06-24-2009, 12:05 PM   #99
Budd
 
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Re: Shiko Training

Quote:
Eric Joyce wrote: View Post
Hey Budd,

Thank you for that explanation. It helps me to understand and put things into context a bit. I haven't specifically been doing any internal arts exercises/training at all. However, I do workout and do a lot of core training and some yoga that has helped me to some degree with my movements, speed, expending less energy, having flexibility and elasticity, balance and having the cardio to keep going. I don't know if its the right type of training, but something seems to be working...for me at least.

I appreciate everyones comments.
Hi Eric,

You know, I think a lot of it, too is about quality of life and anything that makes you operate better and will help keep you strong as you get older is a major plus. Unlike a lot of "doing martial arts" that has had a bit of cumulative damaging effects over time (oi, the back and knees), this kind of training seems to be overall strengthening and helping these things be mitigated and otherwise managed as well.

What I would really say, though, is don't form too strong a viewpoint on "discussions around this stuff" until you can get some hands on time with people, because it really has to be felt.

Best/Budd
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Old 06-24-2009, 02:02 PM   #100
Eric Joyce
Dojo: Budoshingikan
Location: Gilbert, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 179
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Re: Shiko Training

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Eric
Bear in mind that some of us actually learned it and tested it as we refined it in Judo and MMA over the years.
If you go waaay back on E-budo, the Aikido mailing list and jujutsu mailing list you will find there was a misunderstanding prevalent in those days as well that this equated to the "Ki tests" and other marginally useful training models in DR and Aikido that were known then.
You can read the words of certain Koryu teachers and well known DR students arguing that aiki was useless in a pressured environment, since a stress induced adrenaline dump would negate the "fine motor skills" needed to make aiki work in a fight. I argued vehemently-(the posts are all there) that this has nothing to do with fine motor skills it is a body quality that just simply-is, and that secondarily the use does not go away due to stress. And third, not everyone "loses it" in confrontations. They think and function and move. The way you train can have an effect on the way you perform.
It was about as successful then as talking about it..argue, argue, argue. It was obvious where there understanding was then. To be honest it doesn't appear much has changed in talking to them now.
Some people will forever see things as kata and "you do this and I'll do that." Talking about this type of training is like talking to them in a foreign language

Use
The body quality you build is antithetical to the way most people will try to throw you. You become heavier, and more mobile at the same time. Frequently guys will exhaust themselves trying to throw you. Your body will not behave, receive force, transfer weight in ways they are use to feeling. A very good side benefit is that when you are no longer one-side-weighted in movement it becomes very difficult for them to sense where your weight actually is (which is more mobile then normal) so there is no telegraphing for movement, kicks and strikes. all while THEY feel transparent and obvious in their own movements.

Example: When grappling or driving force you can feel someone stepping or changing to kick or move, right? Against someone with internal skills it becomes very hard to move them, or they move in a way that "feels" very fast. The reason it feels so fast is that your senses do not pick up on it like they normally would. Now consider if they want to hit or kick you. You don't feel or sense the weight transfer and bam...you got a knee in the guy or face, or if you are in close, with no discernable wind-up bam you got some very heavy hands and elbows doing some serious damage.
If you were trying for a throw you might try to get under hooks and separate the shoulders /chest from the waist and drive or lift. That becomes hilariously more daunting to an internal adept as he is connected differently and can drive your own force back into you to so you either feel like you are pushing on a wall, or suddenly trying to lift someone who weights a ton or you find you can't grab the ground with your feet and generate a drive. I am assume you are converscent with a fit-in? It causes guys to constantly have to change up looking for postional dominance that never comes-thus leaving you open to feel and make openings of your own. You know that feeling of trying for throw and everything clicks and you feel like you threw yourself trying to throw a guy? That happens to them far more than it usually does when trying to throw someone with these skills.
Contrary to some popular misunderstandings it is NOT rooting and stationary. The body quality is highly mobile and flexible. A common comment I receive is that when tryong to throw me guy lose their feet. They become light because I am alsways under them even when I am over them! They feel a lifting force making it hard to get in on me. But this is instantly changed to heaviness in the blink of an eye.
Last, it is the lack of a need to "wind-up" that allows an internal guy to weight your arms and body and make openings for the hits to keep on coming.
None of the above matters if the person doesn't learn to fight. You have to learn to fight to use it in a fight. Otherwise you're kidding yourself.
Last but not least, it doesn't make you invincible or any such nonsense, but it is one hell of a plus. It isn't a tool in your tool kit- its the tool box.
I cannot stress enough to people though, that if they don't train to use it in a fight, they shouldn't kid themselves that they suddenly will be able to.
Cheers
Dan
Thanks Dan and Budd for your thoughtful and helpful explanantions. Both of you are correct that this is something that has to be felt and experienced in order to somewhat grasp the concept of it.

Dan, you said you used this in Judo and MMA and refined it over the years to where if someone wanted to throw you (let's say harai ogoshi) that the internal training you have done and the way you conditioned your body over the years...that you are able to resist the thows? Not muscling but using your body in a way that neutralizes tori's throw? Even when the 3 principles of kuzushi, tsukuri and kake are executed as one?

I ask this merely as a curiosity thing and not to deny or diminish skill. I myslef would love to see and feel this but being out here in Phoenix, I don't think there are any people out here with this level of internal skill that we are talking about.

Eric Joyce
Otake Han Doshin Ryu Jujutsu
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