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Old 06-22-2009, 02:17 PM   #51
Mike Sigman
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Re: Shiko Training

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
I can think of two ways to look at this:

1) What is the end result of doing these specific exercises a lot? You get better at the specific exercises. They each have a set of external demands placed upon the person doing them (i.e. foot here, arm there, etc. etc.) that are different between all of them or else they would look exactly the same. So rather than say they are all birds, call a duck a duck, a turkey a turkey, and an ostrich an ostrich. These external demands are there to teach something about how one is to do the exercise in question. Now, it may be possible to generalize principles from the form of the exercise about other movements, but the result of the exercise is bound up with the form, because the form defines the utility of the exercise.

or:

2) If, following these external demands, it is still possible to do the exercises "wrong" or that it is still possible to do all these exercises the same "way" regardless, then there are, in fact, demands not intrinsic to the exercise, and you could go so far as to say the exercise in question is actually useless and pointless for teaching them. The necessary demands of the exercise are not bound up in the form of the exercise itself. Why do an exercise to learn something if it doesn't specifically teach it? You could just as well rub your belly and pat your head over and over and practice whatever underlying principle there is and it would be equally effective as doing Shiko or Buddha's Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar or xingyiquan or....

Which of those two ways of looking at it is it? I dunno. I got my own vague answers, but I would rather pose these as questions.
Part of my wry point goes back to the original inference in the thread where the assertion was made that doing Shiko a certain way was wrong. I'd suggest that many ways of doing Shiko are "wrong" or at least "incomplete" and we get nowhere if people simply make assertions and move on. I essentially said the same thing to TGWK by asking him to explain "how it works" rather than just make general pedagogical assertions.

Shiko, like most exercises, can become more and more complex as it develops because it encompasses the connection of the body, the natural winding of the body caused by the lay of muscles/bones/tendons/fascia, ways of using power, and so on. When we trivialize someone's version of how to do Shiko, we should have a reason for why or better. When we offer advice, we should be able to say how it works, at least to some degree, because there is always a "how". There is no magical ki.

In terms of the second point... can non-productive, ritual exercise be done for many years, resulting in missing the point? You betcha. Happens all the time. If you go back a few years in A.W. archives, you'll see that it used to be thought that the ritual or the technique had all the subtlety. Now we're getting into interesting times where more people are seeing that Aikido (and other arts) were deliciously more complex than just "subtle technique skills". There are subtleties of body skills and these are the core of what "Aiki" is and the core of most Asian martial arts that they thought was so magnificent that it rated the Yin-Yang approval sign. Ain't it grand?

Mike
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Old 06-22-2009, 02:33 PM   #52
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Re: Shiko Training

Hi Mike,
What are the take-aways from the Heaven-Man-Earth cosmology?
Can you please point to a reference you thought is good?

The area is huge.

Josh

p.s. Off topic but not off title, i found this clip. Was pretty nasty. What I thought was interesting was the super emphasized loading of uke's structure; resulting in the bounce. The raw power was something to see.
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Old 06-22-2009, 02:43 PM   #53
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Re: Shiko Training

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
p.s. Off topic but not off title, i found this clip. Was pretty nasty. What I thought was interesting was the super emphasized loading of uke's structure; resulting in the bounce. The raw power was something to see.
Same guy, different clip. Nice shoulder usage at the 22 second mark. Unfortunately.
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Old 06-22-2009, 02:52 PM   #54
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Re: Shiko Training

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
2) If, following these external demands, it is still possible to do the exercises "wrong" or that it is still possible to do all these exercises the same "way" regardless, then there are, in fact, demands not intrinsic to the exercise, and you could go so far as to say the exercise in question is actually useless and pointless for teaching them. The necessary demands of the exercise are not bound up in the form of the exercise itself.
What if the demands are bound up in the form of the exercise, but they are so detaillistic that it makes no sense to actually teach them as external demands? That these demands can only be accessed through imagery and experimentation?
In the same vein: how do you teach someone to play music in stead of just the notes? How do you teach someone to drift (motorsport)? How do you teach someone the timing of ikkyo omote? etc.
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Old 06-22-2009, 02:53 PM   #55
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Re: Shiko Training

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Quote:
Timothy Walters Kleinert wrote: View Post
In the big picture, yeah, they both rely on the same principles, and they both train you to "drop" your weight. But as *I experience* the two movements, they seem to work a different set of connections.
So, how does it work, then?
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I'd suggest that many ways of doing Shiko are "wrong" or at least "incomplete" and we get nowhere if people simply make assertions and move on. I essentially said the same thing to TGWK by asking him to explain "how it works" rather than just make general pedagogical assertions.
Wha?... I'm baffled by this. The answer to your question is in the very section of my post that you quoted.

I said that the two exercises are the same, except that they focus on different parts of the body. After that quote of mine, I went on to describe which parts of the body I thought each exercise focused on.

--Timothy Walters Kleinert

Hakuho-ryu/ Takeda-den Itto-ryu, & Wujifa qigongs
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Old 06-22-2009, 02:56 PM   #56
Mike Sigman
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Re: Shiko Training

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Hi Mike,
What are the take-aways from the Heaven-Man-Earth cosmology?
Can you please point to a reference you thought is good?
Josh, these things are just skills. They're clever skills and unusual skills, but they don't break any laws of physics and you have to be shown how to do them, particularly at some of the more complex levels. The Heaven-Earth-Man stuff is mainly about using gravity and weight as your sources of power and you modulate those forces within your body (meaning you have to train in order to do this well).
Quote:
p.s. Off topic but not off title, i found this clip. Was pretty nasty. What I thought was interesting was the super emphasized loading of uke's structure; resulting in the bounce. The raw power was something to see.
I swear I'm going to do a video some day and call it "Quantum-Mechanics Nuclear Radiation Secret Qi Push Hands" so that I can use all the awesome buzzwords.

Mike
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Old 06-22-2009, 03:00 PM   #57
Mike Sigman
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Re: Shiko Training

Quote:
Timothy Walters Kleinert wrote: View Post
I said that the two exercises are the same, except that they focus on different parts of the body. After that quote of mine, I went on to describe which parts of the body I thought each exercise focused on.
OK. I thought you just said things like "tilt" and "lift" and "connect", but no "how it works". Not that big of a deal.

Mike
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Old 06-22-2009, 03:10 PM   #58
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Re: Shiko Training

Mike -
Thanks. It was funny. I can help you with the jargon though. I think we can do better.

What kind of stuff are you working on now?
Where does this stuff go? What is 'onwards and upwards' about, 5, 10, 20 years later? What is your best secret?

Thank you for the comment about the apex being reeling.

re: breaking the laws of physics.
Hmm.

re: cosmology.
It is a funny thing then. If you say that the key takeaways of the cosmology are about gravity and weight, then that neglects about 99.8% of all the 'extraneous' cosmological details. It is long and detailed, as far as my research shows. That was why I asked you about the limits of what is needed to reconcile bodyskill&cosmology. It is an interesting study. Lots of extra things.... lest it escape anyone's attention, much of the other pertains directly to religious world-view.
That is my opinion.

Josh

Last edited by thisisnotreal : 06-22-2009 at 03:16 PM.
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Old 06-22-2009, 03:19 PM   #59
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Re: Shiko Training

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Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
What kind of stuff are you working on now?
Where does this stuff go? What is 'onwards and upwards' about, 5, 10, 20 years later? What is your best secret?
It's worth posting again to note that Ueshiba, Shioda, and many other Asians considered working on these skills as an investment for old age. You have strength; these ways of working out improve your health in an unusual way. It shouldn't take all that many years to get pretty good skills. The reason it takes so long to get skills is that people tend to hoard the information. Having these body skills does not automatically make someone a good fighter, BTW.

My best secret? Am I a bag of marbles that should just empty myself on the table?
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Old 06-22-2009, 03:24 PM   #60
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Re: Shiko Training

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
..the reason it takes so long to get skills is that people tend to hoard the information. .
*That* is ..... H I L A R I O U S.
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Old 06-22-2009, 03:57 PM   #61
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Re: Shiko Training

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Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
*That* is ..... H I L A R I O U S.
John, who was in financial difficulty, walked into a church and started to pray. ''Listen God,'' John said. ''I know I haven't been perfect but I really need to win the lottery. I don't have a lot of money. Please help me out.'' He left the church, a week went by, and he hadn't won the lottery, so he walked into a synagogue. ''Come on, God,'' he said. ''I really need this money. My mom needs surgery and I have bills to pay. Please let me win the lottery.'' He left the synagogue, a week went by, and he didn't win the lottery. So, he went to a mosque and started to pray again. ''You're starting to disappoint me, God,'' he said. ''I've prayed and prayed. If you just let me win the lottery, I'll be a better person. I don't have to win the jackpot, just enough to get me out of debt. I'll give some to charity, even. Just let me win the lottery.'' John thought this did it, so he got up and walked outside.
The clouds opened up and a booming voice said, ''John, work with me on this.... first you gotta buy a freakin' lottery ticket.''


I assume you're signed up at Dan's workshop, Josh?
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Old 06-22-2009, 07:03 PM   #62
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Re: Shiko Training

Another good >Shiko< clip.

Sorry. Couldn't help myself.
I keep getting shiko-rick-rolled by that one.

On a more serious note;
I think >this post from Dan< is important in pertaining to shiko.
And yes, for the record there was a discrepancy on the drawing. Mike's comment >here<
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Old 06-22-2009, 07:17 PM   #63
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Re: Shiko Training

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Joel Zimba wrote: View Post
When I have a "cross-body" connection between the uplifted arm and the opposite leg, I can drop my center downward on to the lifted foot. When it makes contact, the resulting force "bouncing" up through my body shows me where I am breaking from vertical or where I have too much slack.
Originally, when I read this, I thought that you meant that *at that moment where you dropped your center downward* you could feel the bouncing force thru your body. Just from dropping your center internally. That is a crazy thought. Wonder if someone could get so taut. For the record: I now think you are talking about the stomp portion.

re:Feeling the 'bounce' or recoil
I think that ringing of the ground path is what they are doing >here< but by sensing it in/thru someone elses body. Do you agree?

re: spiraling
I think Mike is talking about >this< . But I do not know if it is the same spiral bindings that are worked or if shiko targets specific different ones and/or a different way to work them. Thought the link was interesting; and the picture as well. Spirals.

Josh
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Old 06-22-2009, 07:27 PM   #64
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Re: Shiko Training

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Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
On a more serious note;
I think >this post from Dan< is important in pertaining to shiko.
And yes, for the record there was a discrepancy on the drawing. Mike's comment >here<
Good heavens... I thought no one would ever notice the different ideas on what a "cross" is and how it works. I'd given up hope, in fact. On the one hand, there is the traditional view of the body in relation to ki, etc., and on the other hand there is an X-shape. It'd probably be a really good idea to sort out how the body works when ki/kokyu/qi/jin forces and body training are involved. I realize you said "there was a discrepancy", but I think it's worthwhile to think about how things work. It would be productive, in my opinion.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 06-22-2009, 07:28 PM   #65
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Re: Shiko Training

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Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
I both agree and disagree with the above statement.

If it's not already an obsession it almost makes you wonder if it's all worth it
That was a great post. Thank you.
I both agree and disagree with it.

I learned a lot just in hearing how you think about it. We each bring ourselves to this endeavor and I think will each see something different natively. Like how many different aikido and dr family trees there are (as has been well (and better) said before).

My only contribution to the spiral subject

>The Spiral Line<
Aware of it.And Standing strongly. Learned this one the hard way. By breaking it.

I am starting to think of it as a neural reactivation exercise. Have you come across the term 'neural flossing'?
do you know how they teach rehab for patients trying to recover function? (i.e. where the brain cannot control things it should)
I think this a partial problem statement of one of the things we are trying to do in tanren.

Good Luck.
Josh
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Old 06-22-2009, 07:32 PM   #66
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Re: Shiko Training

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Jang Choe wrote: View Post
I didn't read everything that tgwk wrote since I'm too lazy. But for spiraling in shiko, there is a reason why the palm is turned up in the beginning and end up turned down at the apex of the leg lift. That little motion in the arms is actually conveyed by the whole body--and tada! spiraling in shiko.
Hi Jang,
I completely missed this. And how important this is. Thank you.
It is like the seal on the line.

When that little motion in the arms passes thru the spine in the hips at the center, specifically at the SI (sacroiliac) joints...does it correspond to switching axes of the body from the side-to-side axis to the front-back axis of the body?
If it sounds wrong; My question may be faulty...
Thanks.
Josh

Last edited by thisisnotreal : 06-22-2009 at 07:38 PM.
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Old 06-22-2009, 07:37 PM   #67
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Re: Shiko Training

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Good heavens... I thought no one would ever notice the different ideas on what a "cross" is and how it works. I'd given up hope, in fact. On the one hand, there is the traditional view of the body in relation to ki, etc., and on the other hand there is an X-shape. It'd probably be a really good idea to sort out how the body works when ki/kokyu/qi/jin forces and body training are involved. I realize you said "there was a discrepancy", but I think it's worthwhile to think about how things work. It would be productive, in my opinion.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
Hey Mike,
By all means; please go on. It's totally productive. Throw me a frikken bone.
Josh
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Old 06-22-2009, 07:39 PM   #68
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Re: Shiko Training

It's tricky - I see it as a combination of listening to what people are saying and then feeling what they are doing. Even with people who have a degree of skill, there can be a disconnect between the two things. Then there's the people that are quick to bandy buzzwords about and/or talk about how they already are doing this and/or make up their own terminology as they go -- yet can't do squat.

The internet can be great to get a sense of who you actually want to meet up with in person - then follow it up by doing so. Graphs don't do a lot for me unless I have hands on sense of what a person is talking about. In general, I think there's enough innuendos around basic skills that if you are guessing, it's going to come across that way . . if you are boasting, ditto . . if you're pushing buttons. . etc.
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Old 06-22-2009, 07:51 PM   #69
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Re: Shiko Training

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Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
Hi Jang,
I completely missed this. And how important this is. Thank you.
It is like the seal on the line.

When that little motion in the arms passes thru the spine in the hips at the center, specifically at the SI (sacroiliac) joints...does it correspond to switching axes of the body from the side-to-side axis to the front-back axis of the body?
If it sounds wrong; My question may be faulty...
I'm not sure what you mean by side-to-side axis and front-to-back axis. Can you elaborate on that?
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Old 06-22-2009, 08:03 PM   #70
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Re: Shiko Training

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Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
Hey Mike,
By all means; please go on. It's totally productive. Throw me a frikken bone.
Josh
Well, I did "throw a bone". I published the pertinent drawing relating to the muscle-tendon channels of the body that relate to "ki strength" and how it is conveyed through the body, connected/controlled at the dantien/hara (the unlabeled arrow), and so forth. The basic muscle-tendon channel configurations are what its all about, down to the finest detail. Remember, I said that once you grab a portion of this logic involving ki and movement, the rest inexorably follows. In fact, it gets quite complex, the whole theory of movement, and it involves not only the main dantien/hara/one-point, but also the secondary dantiens at the chest and at the perineum.

The "X" theory is the part that needs some explication. I.e., "how does it work?". Sure, we can pull from side to side, up to down, etc., (the topic can get very complex), but the devil is in the details. What superficially sounds like a good explanation can fall down when examined in light of the traditional and very practical views (and which were worked out in minute detail centuries ago). Ultimately, if the "cross" thing isn't straightened out, it's going to lead to problems of fact and function. In my opinion, the traditional view is extremely precise and correct (so does Thomas Myers in "Anatomy Trains" think its accurate, obviously).... and ultimately the coordination for "ki strength", for "spiralling", for the use of "fascia", and so on is going to need the accuracy of the traditional "cross". So if there's a case for an actual "X", I'm anxiously waiting to hear it.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 06-22-2009, 08:05 PM   #71
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Re: Shiko Training

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Timothy Walters Kleinert wrote: View Post
If you look at the "Anatomy Trains" model that maps the various muscle-fascia pathways, you'll notice that there are lines that run straight down the front, back, and sides, as well as lines that crisscross around.
Hi Tim,
Did you buy the book? It looks expensive and I wasn't sure it was useful other than for all the sophisticated paths.
Would you recommend the purchase?

Quote:
Furthermore, you'll notice that those straight ("vertical") muscle-fascia lines are, umm, "one-sided". Meaning, you have lines that run up the right side, and lines that run up the left.
I remember reading about the following; from I don't know where.
It has to do with clear-conduction of force. I doubt if that is what is meant by the term; but in my mind this is the 'tomei no chikara' the body is to be capable of. Clear path. Clear power.
It talked about how in the human body there mostly are vertical lengths of undifferentiated fascial channels...like in the neck, torso, arms, legs etc.
It talked about how the horizontal ones can cause problems for people, when they slouch, or otherwise assume postural distortions known as 'common compensation patterns'.
These 'horizontal' fascial regions can become problematic for people. This is where they can get snagged, misaligned, torqued. They are the regions that the force (/gravity) has to travel some horizontal distance before they can connect to the next vertical fascial conduction path.
In the body these locations are:
1)At the base of the skull (at the atlas)
2)At the base of the neck
3)At the diaphragm/crura
4) upper hips
5) lower hips
6) knees
a lesser one at the ankles; but ankles are special. As are the feet; they are mostly fascial structures.

The visual here is that of a champagne fountain where you pour champagne (analog=gravity) at the top glass and it flows smoothly and radially symmetrically downwards to fill all glasses at lower levels..etc.

(FWIW; i thought it was an interesting aside, sorry if not! )

Quote:
So here's the exercise my old teacher recommends ...
The exercise consists of simply shifting your hips from side to side, so that your weight is balanced maybe 70%/30% at the extremes, while keeping the spine upright. But here's the important part---you need to keep the hips straight and level, as if they were skewered on some sort of pole.
Among other things:
I think what you are talking about is an exercise targeted to activate and control a line thru the gluteus medius. This is the shock-absorber of the human body; and one of the first body part to be neurally inhibited and synergistically dominated by other body parts(/rhythms). This line is critical to healthy human movement. If you watch a runner who slaps his feet; odds are that the GM (Gluteus medius) function has been disrupted. Learned that one the hard way too. When the GM is not working properly then the Side-to-side axis in the body is compromised/combined with the Front-to-back axis.

Quote:
A word of caution, however---there's a good chance you'll have to loosen up the hips/groin/lower-back areas a bit before you'll be able to do this properly. Tension in the aforementioned areas will cause the knees to get torqued. (But miraculously, if you remove the tension in those areas, you'll feel nothing in the knees.) So in the beginning, go really light until you figure out how to release those tensions, 'cause otherwise the exercise will cause sore knees.
As mentioned, using the foam roller to eliminate tension in the TFL (Tensor fascia lata) and IT (Iliotibial tract) fascial regions will go a long way to recovering proper length-tension relationships and getting rid of knee pain. The only price to pay is .... other pain, of course.

Quote:
then you begin to experience an "opening" and "closing" sensation in the pelvic crease. That is to say, you'll start to experience an "expanding" or "pushing" feeling in the trailing leg, and a simultaneous "contracting" or "pulling" feeling in the leading leg, that seemingly "winds" the legs in or out, respectively.
Funny the synchronicity sometimes. I have just recovered this function to a large degree; and didn't yet realize some of the detail you outlined. Thank you kindly.

Quote:
If you're focusing on the connection between the legs (the "lower arch" as they call it in the Aunkai), then it might feel as if "something" is being "passed" from the leading leg to the trailing leg through the lower abdomen.
I think of this as 'the effective load'. What do you think?

Thanks again for your time. Sorry for length.
Cheers,
Josh
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Old 06-22-2009, 08:11 PM   #72
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Re: Shiko Training

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Well, I did "throw a bone". I published the pertinent drawing relating to the muscle-tendon channels of the body that relate to "ki strength" and how it is conveyed through the body, connected/controlled at the dantien/hara (the unlabeled arrow), and so forth. The basic muscle-tendon channel configurations are what its all about, down to the finest detail. Remember, I said that once you grab a portion of this logic involving ki and movement, the rest inexorably follows. In fact, it gets quite complex, the whole theory of movement, and it involves not only the main dantien/hara/one-point, but also the secondary dantiens at the chest and at the perineum.

The "X" theory is the part that needs some explication. I.e., "how does it work?". Sure, we can pull from side to side, up to down, etc., (the topic can get very complex), but the devil is in the details. What superficially sounds like a good explanation can fall down when examined in light of the traditional and very practical views (and which were worked out in minute detail centuries ago). Ultimately, if the "cross" thing isn't straightened out, it's going to lead to problems of fact and function. In my opinion, the traditional view is extremely precise and correct (so does Thomas Myers in "Anatomy Trains" think its accurate, obviously).... and ultimately the coordination for "ki strength", for "spiralling", for the use of "fascia", and so on is going to need the accuracy of the traditional "cross". So if there's a case for an actual "X", I'm anxiously waiting to hear it.

FWIW

Mike
Interesting.
I don't know the answer.
On a naive level; isn't the mere virtue of the existence and presence of the dantien mean that there is a nexus; or virtual cross there?

Could you give an explicit, perhaps simplified, example of the kind of conundrum this will lead to in form and function?
Josh

p.s. you wrote
Quote:
(the topic can get very complex)
I expect no less. The body is terrifyingly complex. Would that we could engineer something like that. Look how hard it is to *use* nevermind make.
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Old 06-22-2009, 08:21 PM   #73
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Re: Shiko Training

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Jang Choe wrote: View Post
I think that stuff can help in rooting too. I mean it can't hurt it. John Medurga's standing thing recommends us screwing our legs in. I remember an article written by Yan Gaofei that talked about how the legs screws inward naturally when standing. I can see how that's possible if you relax and let the weight pull down the front of the suit, the body closes inward and the legs screw in. That doesn't happen to me naturally yet unless I focus on that aspect. I'm too concerned about other stuff I have to focus on in my standing. I'm assuming the more I get connected all these stuff will happen more naturally.
Wish I knew this earlier:
If anybody has (/suspects) lower body problems/issues/misalignment...this inwardly screwing motion (i.e. medial rotation) of the femur is one of the first things to get shut down (/neurally inhibited) in natural posture. Once shut down there is a cascade of repercussions..

fwiw
Josh
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Old 06-22-2009, 08:31 PM   #74
Mike Sigman
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Re: Shiko Training

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
Interesting.
I don't know the answer.
On a naive level; isn't the mere virtue of the existence and presence of the dantien mean that there is a nexus; or virtual cross there?
Nope. Our body evolved from a cylindrical shape. The dantien is the controlling center of a cylinder. The limbs' nexuses (I would say "nexi" if I were speaking Latin) are the chest dantien and the 'lower dantien' (Hui Yin).
Quote:
Could you give an explicit, perhaps simplified, example of the kind of conundrum this will lead to in form and function?
There are more problems than you can shake a stick at. For a simple exercise procedure you could (depending on whatever your theory is) use an "X" for a while as a superficial example, but ultimately as the skills get more sophisticated, "X" will fail pretty quickly. Already as people are beginning to say things like "spiral", etc., they're getting into trouble because they may not be thinking far enough ahead. The "what's really going on here?" approach is a good one.

The nice thing about the traditional approach is that it's been around for centuries (even Ueshiba quotes from it in his douka), its still relevant mechanically, and it explains all of the aspects of ki-skills once you get past the nomenclature problem of the ki-paradigm. It's also what I happen to prefer, so I'm saved a lot of writing of things you can go look up for yourself. The questions are more about the "X" model and what happens as people try to mix the "X" model with traditional skills that conform with the traditional model and which the traditional model seems to have been designed to explain.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 06-22-2009, 08:51 PM   #75
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: Shiko Training

thinking out loud..
ok; if part of the whole strategy relies on finding the fascial connections; allowing them to be tensioned (e.g. 'leaned on') and then the pressure suit filled around it; then yes; it is not a pure fascial chain/connection in the same way, say, as the spiral line is.

It is exceptional in that way. It is the puppet-master when viewing the body connections as marionette strings. So no; i guess it's not the X model. But i can certainly see how the model is a useful point and frame of reference for connections that you can actively establish in the body. But you seem to debate that point. I think.
Not sure about the ultimate repercussions...and being pragmatic...may i ask, bottom line, what does it matter?
Is it that you cannot 'lean' on the spiral line across the body? What is the worst mistake you'd make with this assumption?

Words fail me. Eyes dim...and crossing....been a long day.
Good night.
Josh
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