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Old 06-10-2009, 01:41 PM   #26
Keith Larman
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Re: Bushido vs Budo

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
I am planning to discuss Yamamoto, Nitobe et al in Column 16.

PAG
That would be fantastic.

It would be nice to be able to excerpt that section just for discussions like these.

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Old 06-10-2009, 03:07 PM   #27
Don_Modesto
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Re: Bushido vs Budo

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
I do hereby formally suggest someone put together all the various posts on the umpteen threads that cover Bushido, Hagakure, etc. into one concise article. Then we need a button on the reply to thread page that allows easy direct insertion of the text directly into a reply.
Here, here!

And while we're at it, why don't we get Jun to upgrade the damn software to one with a search func...

Oh, it does?...

Never mind...

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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Old 06-10-2009, 03:13 PM   #28
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Bushido vs Budo

LOL! You wascally wascal you...
B,
R

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 06-10-2009, 03:41 PM   #29
Charles Hill
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Re: Bushido vs Budo

I remember that when I was about 12, I bought Nitobe's Bushido. It was from the same publishers as Black Belt Magazine, Ohara Publications, a small paperback with absolutely beautiful photographs of trees, beaches,etc. I especially remember a photo of grass that looked like a bunch of swords sticking up. It was a magical book at that, for me, a magical time, reading about honor, chivalry, benevolence. A world that was quite different from the one I was experiencing around me.

I felt quite isolated in my love for the martial arts, and all things Asia. I would have loved to have had a community of like minded people to talk and share this excitement with, I think of how I might have felt to then hear, "Aw man, that topic's been done to death." "Dude, do a little research before you post that crap." Hey, there is a seach function, you know."

Years ago, I memorized the 7 virtues of the samurai from the book, now I can only come up with one, benevolence. But maybe that is the important one, the one that is needed most.
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Old 06-10-2009, 07:50 PM   #30
Buck
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Re: Bushido vs Budo

Quote:
Charles Hill wrote: View Post
I remember that when I was about 12, I bought Nitobe's Bushido. It was from the same publishers as Black Belt Magazine, Ohara Publications, a small paperback with absolutely beautiful photographs of trees, beaches,etc. I especially remember a photo of grass that looked like a bunch of swords sticking up. It was a magical book at that, for me, a magical time, reading about honor, chivalry, benevolence. A world that was quite different from the one I was experiencing around me.
I don't know if you read the post exchange between PAG, and myself where we discussed, in a different thread, Nitobe. In that discussion I quoted Nitobe, from a copy of the same book you remember. I too like it.

Last edited by Buck : 06-10-2009 at 07:53 PM.
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Old 06-10-2009, 08:55 PM   #31
aikishrine
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Re: Bushido vs Budo

You know if you guys dont like the thread, then dont post on it.
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Old 06-10-2009, 09:35 PM   #32
Keith Larman
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Re: Bushido vs Budo

You know, I just spent a huge amount of time writing up a long, detailed response trying to explain the issue. Which is of course the problem with these sorts of issues and was why I wrote what I did originally.

But... Never mind. It is apparently not what you want to read.

Hopefully when Dr. Goldsbury puts out installment 16 some will take the time to read it and try to understand it. I know I will. Till then -- sorry for the intrusion.

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Old 06-11-2009, 06:37 AM   #33
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Bushido vs Budo

Quote:
Brian Northrup wrote: View Post
You know if you guys dont like the thread, then dont post on it.
Hi Brian, are the suggestions to use the search function, or the requests for standard responses offensive? I could simply say, then don't read them...but that would be inappropriate, I think. Most are trying to find inoffensive ways to point to the moon. Don't be hatin' the finger... As this is an open forum, you have the right to post as you will. Would you deny that same right to others?

Quote:
I think of how I might have felt to then hear, "Aw man, that topic's been done to death." "Dude, do a little research before you post that crap." Hey, there is a seach function, you know."
Hi Charles, I've been enjoying your posts. I have to object to the word "crap" though. I've been reading these threads, and no one has said that.

To quote another controversial tome (please don't read if easily offended):
[Spoiler]
Quote:
When I was a child I spoke as a child I understood as a child I thought as a child; but when I became a man I put away childish things." I Cor. xiii. 11.
[/spoiler]

That answer may seem flippant, but it is not meant to be. We have all experienced periods of isolation, marginalization, persecution. But at least in my life, it has been most helpful to have others encourage me to move beyond that. The angry young man somehow must grow beyond that, if he is to accomplish something significant in his life. I guess the same can be said for the angry young romantic.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 06-11-2009, 07:55 AM   #34
aikishrine
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Re: Bushido vs Budo

Maybe the questions i ask have been asked before, i dont know and i dont really care. The reason being is that as time goes by peoples ideas change. What they may have thought some time ago may be completly different today.

I have used the search engine, i have read some older post. But that does not mean the way i ask the question is the same as someone else, or that i catch someone in an enlightend moment and they can shed some new light on the subject. Ya Dig.

Last edited by aikishrine : 06-11-2009 at 07:57 AM.
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Old 06-11-2009, 08:22 AM   #35
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Bushido vs Budo

I dig. And I actually like the fact that you are asking.

But I have to admit, I also like the fact that people are giving perfectly reasonable answers, under the circumstances.

Best,
Ron (I really like the posts that have been contributed to your threads)

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 06-11-2009, 11:32 AM   #36
Don_Modesto
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Re: Bushido vs Budo

Quote:
Charles Hill wrote: View Post
Years ago, I memorized the 7 virtues of the samurai from the book, now I can only come up with one, benevolence. But maybe that is the important one, the one that is needed most.
Respect is another.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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Old 06-11-2009, 02:24 PM   #37
Buck
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Re: Bushido vs Budo

Quote:
Brian Northrup wrote: View Post
You know if you guys dont like the thread, then dont post on it.
Hey, I feel for you. You are asking a question that really an expert, a real expert, can answer correctly. Most of us are amateurs and will just bicker back and forth. For instance, me being such an amateur, will say Bushido is dead, and has been a marketing tool for McDojo's and for those who find reality a tough place to live in. Budo is well that is something of Monty Python's "Holy Grail" thing, "it a silly place."

My opinion is these terms are ornamentals in our culture, and have become trendy words used to impress those not in martial arts- mostly. They are something related to the Japanese and their history, which we earnestly study from afar.

Hope that helps.
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Old 06-11-2009, 04:16 PM   #38
Charles Hill
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Re: Bushido vs Budo

Hi Ron,

Thanks for the reply. The Internet is not a place for subtlety and I see that I failed to clearly get my point across. The comments I put in quotes were not what I think was said, but how I think they will be (and have been already) interpreted. Sorry if I have offended, that's for Don too, sorry.

What I wanted to say was that it seems to me that no one comes here purely for info. Instead perhaps we are all trying to feel connnected in some way. And the percentage of looking for info vs. trying to feel connected varies from person to person. When I see a question or comment that clearly shows the poster has not looked around, then I think that that person has come to connect. For that kind of poster, I think it is more helpful to respond keeping in mind they are looking for something else. That way I can connect with the person and then they will be more open to info.

How's that? Better?

Charles
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Old 06-11-2009, 04:40 PM   #39
Charles Hill
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Re: Bushido vs Budo

Hi Buck,

I am afraid that I can no longer like the book. I live in Japan and am raising a family here. Bushido (both the book and the concept) was used as a tool to stupidify (to coin a term) and control a populace leading up to and during WWII. And after the war this never went away, and now there is an amazing lack of culpability, not just about the war, but about everything. So when I see the book, I don't think of samurai virtues like benevolence and respect , I think of crimes against humanity that people have gotten away with. Funnily/scarily enough, the book is enjoying a bit of popularity again.

Charles
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Old 06-11-2009, 09:16 PM   #40
Buck
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Re: Bushido vs Budo

Quote:
Charles Hill wrote: View Post
Hi Buck,

I am afraid that I can no longer like the book. I live in Japan and am raising a family here. Bushido (both the book and the concept) was used as a tool to stupidify (to coin a term) and control a populace leading up to and during WWII. And after the war this never went away, and now there is an amazing lack of culpability, not just about the war, but about everything. So when I see the book, I don't think of samurai virtues like benevolence and respect , I think of crimes against humanity that people have gotten away with. Funnily/scarily enough, the book is enjoying a bit of popularity again.

Charles
Hi,

I am aware of that hypocrisy too. I don't have strong feelings about it, like yourself. Well, that's because I am not of Japanese ancestry or Japanese, or live in Japan, I guess there is no personal involvement. I like this book over other publishers because the way it was done. Like you mention the pictures they used, I liked them too. I liked the feel/style of the book that they did. The pictures they choose and the layout. The contents, well I already discussed that with PAG and I didn't want to be redundant.

I have been fortunate to speak to many Japanese living here and in Japan. And of what you describe there is generally two areas I see that I can place those discussions in. Some supportive of the Japanese WWII effort. Others not. Now as far as Americans. There are those who fought in WWII and opposed the Japanese, and have bitter feelings about things like the "Death Marches". And those put in American who where put into camps, who where Americans of Japanese ancestry. I know one family who lost their farm and had to buy it back twice, and very bitter about it. Or friend's grandparents who spent time in the camps as kids and had have no resounding anger to the loss of their homes and the other hardships they suffered.

Hypocrisy it isn't exclusive to the Japanese. It is my understanding it is pretty rampant in many Asian governments, China is a big gone. And hypocrisy is also big in the Western world way back to Athens in the 4th Century BC. And the bible has been used in worse ways and justifications by scads of peoples, then Nitobe's book. I am not surprised it was misused, and I personally don't discount the book because it was a tool misused and twisted by a government or a political party, FWIW. I guess cause I don't live in Japan and it is a matter that doesn't touch me. I look at it as something that the Japanese have to deal with, and I am on the outside looking in. Thank you for your thoughts.
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Old 06-12-2009, 06:24 AM   #41
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Bushido vs Budo

DOH! [Smacks head]ho boy. [/smacks head]

Yeah, I kinda missed the boat on that one.

Best,
Ron
Quote:
Charles Hill wrote: View Post
Hi Ron,

Thanks for the reply. The Internet is not a place for subtlety and I see that I failed to clearly get my point across. The comments I put in quotes were not what I think was said, but how I think they will be (and have been already) interpreted. Sorry if I have offended, that's for Don too, sorry.

What I wanted to say was that it seems to me that no one comes here purely for info. Instead perhaps we are all trying to feel connnected in some way. And the percentage of looking for info vs. trying to feel connected varies from person to person. When I see a question or comment that clearly shows the poster has not looked around, then I think that that person has come to connect. For that kind of poster, I think it is more helpful to respond keeping in mind they are looking for something else. That way I can connect with the person and then they will be more open to info.

How's that? Better?

Charles

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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