Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > External Aikido Blog Posts

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-09-2009, 04:46 PM   #26
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,914
Offline
Re: Principles of Aiki

Quote:
Marc Evensen wrote: View Post
His assertion was that this action activated the lattisimus dorsi.
Now that's in line with something a former teacher used to talk about a LOT - using the lats rather than the arms/shoulders to initiate arm movement - and I've been playing w/ that for some yrs now. On double checking muscle isolation now sitting here at work, the lat activation does bring the scapulae down but not necessarily inward - so something else seems to be involved there.
oh and Ron I didn't mean to sound snarky in my reply - reread it and realized it had a bit of that tone - not intended.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2009, 08:48 PM   #27
Abasan
Dojo: Aiki Shoshinkan, Aiki Kenkyukai
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 813
Malaysia
Offline
Re: Principles of Aiki

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Out of curiosity: do you not keep your knees slightly bent in your aikido stance?
I do but not as much as I would have to to do for the tailbone tucking in.

Btw, I notice some sensei's have a straight spine and strong connectivity to the hands but they seem to achieve that by actually leaning forward slightly to achieve the straight spine.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2009, 06:40 AM   #28
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Principles of Aiki

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
oh and Ron I didn't mean to sound snarky in my reply - reread it and realized it had a bit of that tone - not intended.
I love that word snarky... No worries. My initial post may well have come of as snarky too, which would explain any reaction!

I guess I was just surprised when I went back and saw the number of posts and threads where just I had mentioned it. Re-reading that made me realize just how much I forget when not focusing on something.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2009, 07:40 AM   #29
John Brockington
Dojo: Retsushinkan/Birmingham, AL
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 65
United_States
Offline
Re: Principles of Aiki

Hi Janet-

If you are interested in getting this type of information (and a lot of it) in a web-based forum with a high signal to noise ratio, there are options out there. Should this be the case, I would suggest contacting Mike S.

Regards-

John
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2009, 12:35 PM   #30
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Principles of Aiki

I would suggest -doing- something about it as a long term investment and deeper study in place of or as part of your aikido training, instead of continuing to just pick up pieces here and there.
The things being discussed are very, very basic structure issues and are really just a small part of that picture with all sorts of potential errors when considering them independently. I for one would never agree to a tuck in any form. In fact for most, with their musculature like it is, it does as much harm as benefit for support as they will just tighten into a tuck. A better idea is to think of stretching and opening the spine and let the sacrum drop. In fact I could make a case for certain things to do with the crotch or deep groin area (no jokes please) that would make the sacrum look like it wasn't tucking but was flat or even tilting a bit back instead!. I have some friends-one who teaches Yang Taiji and another who practices it who keep arguing with me but since they can't throw me- we agree to disagree. IMO, tucking leads to other vulnerabilities that can be eliminated with a freedom in the crotch and hips.
More importantly-neither of which has anything to do with aiki.

Building your frame, strengthening your tendons, and engaging and using the fascial system as a unit with the breath are all part of making a bujutsu or martial body. As that body is tempered and built more slack is removed. Let's call "slack" here- various means and methods whereby the normal body moves in pieces and parts, and its weight is all over the place when it does. You may note that some older teachers have a range of motion where they move just so far and their movement effects you. The reason is their structure is more developed, some of them really don't have clue how to replicate it and teach it to others. They did it themselves through kata while their peers stunk up the place. But kata has always been a gamble as a learning tool or model. From what I have seen even then some of the guys I have played with have holes in their game-all over the place.
It's not that way with someone training their body. There are specific things you can do. As you build it (with movement with intent, so in movement you remove weaknesses) and your intent becomes increasingly profound, you remove more and more slack. Your range of motion, BEFORE you start affecting your opponent, becomes less and less, finally to the point that almost even thinking about moving affects them. I have had people tell me so and so teacher feel this way only to find out. "No, no they don't." And when you show them they agree it's not the same.
So, there are ways to knit your body together; some hard some soft. As George knows from back in the aikido list days I have been telling aikido people they are too strong and muscular and do not truly understand soft. In fact from a post back in 1996 I was advocating they should be thinking more like taiji soft and learning to train and use the waist, hips, and upper body separately and then as a unit in motion, instead of their versions of the Yoshinkan, and aikikai "frame stances" with their bowed back and stuck out belly's. Which, by the way- pretty much had you screwed before you even started.

Soft
You know immediately when you are pushing, yanking, and trying to enter to throw someone and they are standing there playing with you and wiggling and moving and they feel like a steel belted radial that can turn and move all around you but you can't do anything with them and end up on your fanny for trying that there is a Martial soft that goes beyond what the majority of folks conceived of as "soft."
But look, even with that there are ways to train that are not all the same, ways to carry the body, that are not all the same in a given art. Everyone talks about moving from the center and yet there they are in all their glory; single side weighted and onece you remove technique they don't really know what to do with force.
There is a study of how to change force, but that is a discussion best left till A-F-T-E-R you start learning to knit your body together. Well, okay, during as well, but only at certain points. The reason for that is trying to accomplish certain things with a normal body is waste of time. Getting someone to stop single weighting themselves or breaking when they are standing there all by themselves is one thing, getting them to do it against a single line of force, another, getting them to do it against fast changing motion that is soft itself is another level still.
Suffice to say there are ways to change incoming or pulling or turning energy -within your own body that scapulars and sacrums don't even come close to touching. Stepping into the use of spiraling energy alone is a world of work, past basic solo frame work. And it requires years of investing, not a few weekend seminars. You can try to get it from kata, or you can start to train by yourself and become something different to the majority of players out there. But you need to find someone willing to invest in you as you work, and for many -maybe being willing to give up going to X or Y seminar this year and instead focusing on the change in building a bujutsu body to fully express a Budo art.

I am actively getting teachers involved so they and their students can focus together and make the change. It seems it will be far less frustrating for both parties as "the crucible" in which to build- will be right there in their own dojo. And the testing ground -out there against Shihan-will turn into nothing more than a playground for people who are doing the work. I think of it like a grand experiment, as well as being a hell of a lot of fun.

I think everyone needs to make a committed step and stick with it. Picking up this or that "trick" or this or that "part" isn't going to accomplish anything truly meaningful. It's what everyone has been doing for years in attending so and so's seminars or having all these teachers in with different methods. For years I have looked at certain teachers who invite all manner of Budo greats in for this or that seminar to pick up this or that. It's great to be so open minded but more than a few times I have looked at those guys-a few of whom were and are friends of mine and said.
"That's great. So what happened to you?"

Cheers
Dan
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2009, 02:05 PM   #31
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Principles of Aiki

I think Dan has it right...little pieces here and there leave you like me...physically confused!

I'm sure Dan will straighten that right out the next time he gets his hands on me!

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2009, 07:56 AM   #32
John Brockington
Dojo: Retsushinkan/Birmingham, AL
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 65
United_States
Offline
Re: Principles of Aiki

Dan and Janet-

I certainly agree with Dan's emphasis, and am trying to do this myself, but the problem is finding a teacher who is capable and willing to impart this type of information. In lieu of consistent and constant access to such a teacher, I think it can help to have supplementary written information about training methodologies. Key word is supplementary, though.

Speaking of which, in reading your post Dan I began to wonder, how does one know that there is sufficient built-in structure to begin training with force?

Regards-

John
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2009, 08:19 AM   #33
thisisnotreal
 
thisisnotreal's Avatar
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 692
Offline
Re: Principles of Aiki

Hi Dan,
Is there any hope for a person to figure it out themselves?... if they cannot get access to a teacher of this high caliber?

Are there any principles that you can outline in helping to build the budo body? Is self study to *build*, a realistic possibility?

These are only some of my thoughts:
I am thinking that the body is an adaptive feedback cycle. If you can load it in new ways that build; then it will adapt and strengthen. Here I have an eye on kaizen and the fact that every movement of the body either takes money out of the bank, or puts money in the bank. I think you are talking about ways of building the body *all* the time.

Does it have anything to do with PNF used to condition to build strength over flexibility? Did you ever hear of Dara Torres? Watch the 3rd video down >here<

Using the breath?
Does it have anything to do with a distant cousin to the valsalva maneuver? Except instead of closing the epiglottis, finding a way to use (and move!) the intraabdominal pressure to augment intention? (/hara)

Spiral Energy?
Can you say more about this aspect? Does it have to do with sequential inter-and-inner muscular activation strengthening around skeletal frame to not only reinforce ground-path but to send a shot of energy? I guess this is offensive energy...

As always thank you kindly.
Best,
Josh
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2009, 08:24 AM   #34
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Principles of Aiki

Quote:
Speaking of which, in reading your post Dan I began to wonder, how does one know that there is sufficient built-in structure to begin training with force?

Regards-

John
Uhm...by failing when you get a little force.
It's a life long study. It's not like you ever finish. And its not just this pushing stuff or what to do with the upper cross, or tailbone or with just with frame work. Using it is more complex. And takes years of work. Each step is a lengthy study; of what supports what, where, why and how, what works better overall, what works better for your needs, and so on. as many are finding out though its a whole lot of fun. I have had some teachers call it grad school for Aikido teachers, or a second beginning with a twinkle in their eye and a smile on their face!
Cheers
Dan
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2009, 09:21 AM   #35
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Principles of Aiki

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
Hi Dan,
Is there any hope for a person to figure it out themselves?... if they cannot get access to a teacher of this high caliber?
Learning by yourself. Lets talk about that.
1. Initial discovery by yourself?
I think its damn near impossible. Maybe a few things I dunno
2. Adding on to what was shown?
Yes. Most certainly
3. Making "advancements" all on your own?
I think that depends on what you were shown, how smart you are, where you do further research and how and how well and how often you train.
There is no doubt that the greats kept picking up stuff as they went along. They openly talked about it. But I think we need to leave those comments and the validity of them- to the established greats who can get away with it.

I am only speak for me Josh. There is no "establishment" out there that is in agreement of what is correct. There is agreement and disagreement on things. And I don't consider my self in terms of high or low calibur, nor do I consider myself a teacher. I do what I do and go take it out for a spin when I am able. I tell everyone to to leave and go do their own research. if they come back fine, if they find something great...show.
Go feel the best you can find and validate your own stuff.

Quote:
Are there any principles that you can outline in helping to build the budo body? Is self study to *build*, a realistic possibility?
Not on the net no. I think its waste of time to do how to's. Even up close and personal it takes a lot of correcting over many practices. Personally I just feel its a better walk than doing more kata. I left traditional Budo with some very good details and principles, studied diligently and came back to find my efforts were not without merit.

I can't address all of that stuff you are talking about. For me spiral energy is there all the time its not about offensive energy. You can absorb along a path or emit along a path or carry along a path or send. There is power at every arc and it is supported by the opposite. Its why I never liked reading where people stress the idea of the single push/ ground path thing that Tohei showed as Ki or Kokyu. Power and aiki is much more than that stuff. And there's a good example of the disagreements with this stuff. Some say that stuff is the basis of power, others will say spiral energy is the basis of power.
I'd save your money and go find *someone* willing to show you some things. Then... go search out others who *strongly* disagree with whatever that *someone* says. In time you'll know where and what you want to train. I just couldn't spend the rest of my life grabbing wrists and taking Ukemi when there is so much more to be had.
Enjoy the ride.
Cheers
an
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2009, 10:24 AM   #36
Cliff Judge
Dojo: Aikido Shobukan Dojo
Location: Columbia, MD
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 883
United_States
Offline
Re: Principles of Aiki

George, I have been working on this the past week or so. It has added some new discombobulation but I swear I'm moving partners around without the usual arm muscles firing. It could just be self-hypnosis but I'll stick with it for awhile longer and see what I get out of it!

One thing I hope you can clarify: are you saying that you should keep your tailbone tucked, and your shoulder blades slid together, the whole time you move around the mat? Is this a static postural thing? Or is the sliding of the shoulder blades, and tucking of the tailbone, dimensions of movement that I need to learn? I.e. is it the SLIDING of the shoulder blades, and the TUCKING of the tailbone, that effects the one-body and floating of partner's center, or is it the SLID shoulder blades and TUCKED tailbone.

Anyway, this concept seems to blend nicely with what some of the Shobukan instructors took away from Gleason Sensei's recent seminar in MD, which was about opening the chest and seperating turning of the hips from the turning of the waist.

Thanks,
Cliff from DC

P.S. to Mr. Harden: when are you going to go on tour?
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2009, 01:20 PM   #37
John Brockington
Dojo: Retsushinkan/Birmingham, AL
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 65
United_States
Offline
Re: Principles of Aiki

Thanks for your comments Dan, I am encouraged greatly and look forward to the challenge of trying to "figure it out."

Sorry Janet for the thread appropriation, but maybe we are looking at the same thing?

John
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2009, 01:29 PM   #38
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,914
Offline
Re: Principles of Aiki

um,er, I wasn't aware this was in any way "my" (or anybody's) thread.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2009, 12:50 AM   #39
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Principles of Aiki

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
George, I have been working on this the past week or so. It has added some new discombobulation but I swear I'm moving partners around without the usual arm muscles firing. It could just be self-hypnosis but I'll stick with it for awhile longer and see what I get out of it!

One thing I hope you can clarify: are you saying that you should keep your tailbone tucked, and your shoulder blades slid together, the whole time you move around the mat? Is this a static postural thing? Or is the sliding of the shoulder blades, and tucking of the tailbone, dimensions of movement that I need to learn? I.e. is it the SLIDING of the shoulder blades, and the TUCKING of the tailbone, that effects the one-body and floating of partner's center, or is it the SLID shoulder blades and TUCKED tailbone.

Anyway, this concept seems to blend nicely with what some of the Shobukan instructors took away from Gleason Sensei's recent seminar in MD, which was about opening the chest and seperating turning of the hips from the turning of the waist.

Thanks,
Cliff from DC

P.S. to Mr. Harden: when are you going to go on tour?
Never. Not interested.
I'm having too much fun here at home with family, and new Budo friends coming here. I am content to help you through Bill.
Cheers
Dan
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2009, 01:39 AM   #40
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,623
Offline
Re: Principles of Aiki

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Never. Not interested.
I'm having too much fun here at home with family, and new Budo friends coming here. I am content to help you through Bill.
Cheers
Dan
Dan,
Getting the "mountain to come to Muhammad" so to speak is an achievement of some magnitude. Although I must say I do enjpy virtually all the places I travel and being a guest. But if I could get away with it I'd do more at home... it's a lot less tiring.
- George

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2009, 06:31 AM   #41
gdandscompserv
 
gdandscompserv's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,214
United_States
Offline
Re: Principles of Aiki

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Dan,
Getting the "mountain to come to Muhammad" so to speak is an achievement of some magnitude. Although I must say I do enjpy virtually all the places I travel and being a guest. But if I could get away with it I'd do more at home... it's a lot less tiring.
- George
In this case I'm trying to figure out if Dan is the 'mountain' or 'Muhammad.'
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2009, 01:35 PM   #42
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Principles of Aiki

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Dan,
Getting the "mountain to come to Muhammad" so to speak is an achievement of some magnitude. Although I must say I do enjpy virtually all the places I travel and being a guest. But if I could get away with it I'd do more at home... it's a lot less tiring.
- George
Hello George
Don’t know about it being so dramatic.
I like Meik Skoss’s idea that we are “All bums on the budo bus.” None of us invented this stuff, so none of us is any big deal, or big shot. I Can't quite capture that without Meik's personal method of delivery.
I’m not totally opposed to traveling to share, Just not in "tours" that waste my time with dog and pony shows for budo tourists who will check-off their “Internal power / aiki” card by attending a couple of weekend seminars and thinking they got it and then just going back to what they were doing. I’m not interested investing my time with someone I’ll never see again either.
Because this training takes dedicated time outside of the arts kata, it requires -by default- commitment and correction outside the normal venues. As I noted earlier a good bit of the frustration written about in these pages- and expressed to me personally- was lack of teachers and the lack of approved time back home to practice. Further people in the art having access to those that they themselves do not “perceive’ as being adversarial so they will listen when they speak.
A good case to prove my point was Janet’s post here. I think it was clear that she had trouble “hearing” some things that have been said here over and over. Maybe from disgust, disinterest, what have you. She needed to hear it in a form that would be palatable or maybe just from someone she was willing or interested in hearing…from! In direct terms, those offering the information may be too controversial, some to confrontational, or others to uninteresting for people to hear. Make sense? So, if my words and intentions were to be sincere and transparent, then my concerns to help should truly be beyond concerns for self or means to transmit. So…find a way to get the information into the hands of those who can not only be heard but who can affect a broader outcome. So, I am actually hoping for a model that better supports the directional shift many are discussing.. Trying to figure out just who to do that with might be problematic.
Interestingly enough the type of teachers who remain open enough to reach out and bring in and get a feel for so many different outside teachers are, on the other hand confused enough to never stick with one thing. I have heard people like this tell their own students how they are learning this or that to incorporate into their art to make their stuff the best, “So train here!!” I think they are actually mistaken in many ways. I’m more interested in out of the way, single minded dogged and deliberate people who really don’t care much what the other kids are playing.
Students will have a tough time in doing that. The only way to do it is to affect teachers. What I am attempting will solve the problem of not being able to a) practice in your own dojo and b) having a somewhat approved directional method for re-integrating this into each styles aikido. c) having someone who can help along the way.
That way you not affect those who are searching for it, you affect those who never, EVER heard of it, but their teacher demands it. In two styles I am currently affecting the teachers have made it known that this type of training is going to be mandatory for advancement in the art of aikido under them.
What better and more efficient way to actually DO what we all have been talking about?
So, I fully intend to find a means and method to do this with the right people. While I will never go "n tour" I am not entirely opposed to going to them after we have built a working relationship and progress is being made.
Should be an interesting few years
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 06-12-2009 at 01:41 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2009, 02:37 PM   #43
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,914
Offline
Re: Principles of Aiki

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
A good case to prove my point was Janet's post here. I think it was clear that she had trouble "hearing" some things that have been said here over and over. Maybe from disgust, disinterest, what have you. She needed to hear it in a form that would be palatable or maybe just from someone she was willing or interested in hearing…from!Dan
Hi, Dan

I have no disagreement w/ anything you, Mike, etc have ever posted about internal/aiki stuff. But because - as you've said since the days Cady brought you onto aikido-L - its impossible to describe this stuff in words or images, it has to be felt, I've tended to skim over or skip many of the discussion threads involving more dogmatic aikido folks arguing with you over the years.

George posted something very specific involving ahe triggering of a muscle group. Since I know this movement/trigger, it is something I know I can replicate correctly on my own.

So nope, no disgust and certainly not disinterest. Just being realistic about what I can integrate into my own practice up here in the rural left coast.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Correlation of Aikido and Daito-Ryu Waza John Driscoll Columns 28 08-04-2013 05:01 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 5 Peter Goldsbury Columns 69 12-31-2008 11:41 AM
Is Aikido effective for police? erogers General 136 07-13-2008 07:00 AM
Whats the difference? C. Emerson General 34 08-21-2003 06:43 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:29 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate