Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Language

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-07-2009, 11:36 AM   #1
aikishrine
Dojo: aikido of central new york
Location: syracuse,ny
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 143
United_States
Offline
Bushido vs Budo

Is there a difference in these two terms as to there philosophies?
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2009, 12:15 PM   #2
Carsten Möllering
 
Carsten Möllering's Avatar
Dojo: Hildesheimer Aikido Verein
Location: Hildesheim
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 847
Germany
Offline
Re: Bushido/Budo

Hi

I think ...

... the first and main intent of bushido is complete submission under a daimyo or someone comparable. So it is a sociological or social concept which tells how to behave.

... budo is the way of seeking personal development by practicing a martial art. So it is a technical and individual concept, which is about how to be.

Carsten
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2009, 07:40 AM   #3
judojo
 
judojo's Avatar
Dojo: Ju Dojo
Location: 349 MALVAR STREET, DIPOLOG CITY, 7100, ZDN, PHILIPPINES
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 41
Philippines
Offline
Re: Bushido vs Budo

Hi Brian Northrup, I read your nice Topic on Bushido versus Budo.The Bushido is the Samurai Warrior of the Nippon Empire, they are the Military and Shugon or Police of the Nippon Royal Political Empire, they are under the Royal King Emperor. But the Budo is the Martial Arts of Japan, It was thought in Schools of Japan as prescribe by the Nippon Laws of Education , thus the defense of individual of all Japanese people. And so therefor they are not opposing to both of these Words. Because the Bushido must Master the Budo, before he become a Samurai and Bushido.

REYNALDO L. ALBAÑO
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2009, 03:33 PM   #4
Ketsan
Dojo: Zanshin Kai
Location: Birmingham
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 860
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Bushido vs Budo

Quote:
Brian Northrup wrote: View Post
Is there a difference in these two terms as to there philosophies?
First off I'd say that the Budo and Bushido have identical spiritual goals: to produce someone that's mastered themself, the difference is in intent for that self mastery.
Budo has no martial intention. Bushido uses self mastery for purely martial reasons. You can be doing both at the same time though and that's Aikido, in some places.

For example, Kendo is budo but kendo has no practical martial application, it's just use of a martial style system to produce non-martial goals. So there is no intention in Kendo to produce a competant fighting man or woman, there is no martial intention behind it, self mastery is the goal.

Aikido, in some dojo anyway, is two fold, either by design or by accident. Whatever the intentions of O-Sensei there are people that study it and teach it for self defence, there is at least in places in the Aikido world, a martial intent it's not just a tool for making nice people.

Last edited by Ketsan : 06-08-2009 at 03:36 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2009, 03:38 PM   #5
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Bushido vs Budo

Heh, I'm still confused by the attachment to the word "Bushido". I know we've hashed that out in another thread, but I still don't understand the attachment.

Is it the sound of the word? Is it the dubious connection to "samurai"? What is it about that word that attracts so much?

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2009, 06:21 PM   #6
Mark Uttech
Dojo: Yoshin-ji Aikido of Marshall
Location: Wisconsin
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,218
Offline
Re: Bushido vs Budo

Onegaishimasu. 'Bushido' carries with it the scent of the 'world of the Samurai'. I personally never got attached to the word, but in my beginning foray into the world of Japanese martial arts it seemed like an important word to add to your vocabulary; a signpost; something like that. Those of us who got into Aikido quickly replaced the word with 'Budo', which was supposed to be farther on down the road or something like that.

In gassho,

Mark

- Right combination works wonders -
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2009, 06:25 PM   #7
Mark Uttech
Dojo: Yoshin-ji Aikido of Marshall
Location: Wisconsin
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,218
Offline
Re: Bushido vs Budo

Onegaishimasu. Silly me, I forgot to address the thread which is about the difference of the two terms, Bushido and Budo. By far the best description I read of Budo was that on the one hand, it meant
"to stop the thrusting spear" and on the other hand (and I love this!) it meant: "hey you! stop thrusting with the spear!"

In gassho,

Mark

- Right combination works wonders -
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2009, 07:00 PM   #8
Charles Hill
Dojo: Numazu Aikikai/Aikikai Honbu Dojo
Location: Three Lakes WI/ Mishima Japan
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 837
Offline
Re: Bushido vs Budo

In the book Aikido The Way of Harmony. Rinjiro Shirata says, "During the war, we were told that Bushido means to learn how to die. I learned that this is not the real budo; real budo is to learn how to live, how to live together with others in harmony and peace."
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2009, 07:19 PM   #9
Chuck Clark
 
Chuck Clark's Avatar
Dojo: Jiyushinkan
Location: Monroe, Washington
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,134
United_States
Offline
Re: Bushido vs Budo

Quote:
Charles Hill wrote: View Post
" ... real budo is to learn how to live, how to live together with others in harmony and peace."
YES! Using the principles, techniques, and discipline of bujutsu, we learn the Way of understanding self and how to get along with others.

I think Kano's "Seiryoku zenyo" and "Jita kyoei" say it succinctly.

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2009, 08:37 PM   #10
Josh Reyer
 
Josh Reyer's Avatar
Location: Aichi-ken, Nagoya-shi
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 644
Japan
Offline
Re: Bushido vs Budo

Budo - way of attainment through the study of combat.

Bushido - way of attainment through being a hereditary caste of sword-carrying bureaucrats.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2009, 10:18 PM   #11
aikishrine
Dojo: aikido of central new york
Location: syracuse,ny
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 143
United_States
Offline
Re: Bushido vs Budo

Quote:
Charles Hill wrote: View Post
In the book Aikido The Way of Harmony. Rinjiro Shirata says, "During the war, we were told that Bushido means to learn how to die. I learned that this is not the real budo; real budo is to learn how to live, how to live together with others in harmony and peace."
Some might say in the Japanese thought, learning how to die was and is in fact learning how to live.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2009, 02:01 AM   #12
Charles Hill
Dojo: Numazu Aikikai/Aikikai Honbu Dojo
Location: Three Lakes WI/ Mishima Japan
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 837
Offline
Re: Bushido vs Budo

Quote:
Brian Northrup wrote: View Post
Some might say in the Japanese thought, learning how to die was and is in fact learning how to live.
Hi Brian,

The question that popped into my mind when I read your quote is "Who, specifically does 'Some' refer to?" Because obviously Shirata Sensei disagreed with what you wrote, and, in my eyes, who would be a greater authority than him?

Charles
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2009, 04:42 AM   #13
StevieT
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 20
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Bushido vs Budo

The problem with learning how to die is that it's so hard to find a good teacher.

Anybody who claims to have mastered this art is clearly lying!
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2009, 07:47 AM   #14
aikishrine
Dojo: aikido of central new york
Location: syracuse,ny
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 143
United_States
Offline
Re: Bushido vs Budo

Quote:
Charles Hill wrote: View Post
Hi Brian,

The question that popped into my mind when I read your quote is "Who, specifically does 'Some' refer to?" Because obviously Shirata Sensei disagreed with what you wrote, and, in my eyes, who would be a greater authority than him?

Charles
I guess when i say some i mean the samurai. If you read Hagakure, or Bushido or some other classics on Japanese philosophy, they all seem to me to place a great emphasis on learning how to die in a dignified manner, with grace and courage.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2009, 07:56 AM   #15
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Bushido vs Budo

Cough..."Classics"??? Hmmm...

Best,
Ron (I think I'd better shut up now)

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2009, 08:49 AM   #16
Rennis Buchner
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 61
Japan
Offline
Re: Bushido vs Budo

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Cough..."Classics"??? Hmmm...

Best,
Ron (I think I'd better shut up now)
Move along, move along, nothing to see here....

Rennis
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2009, 08:55 AM   #17
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Bushido vs Budo



Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2009, 09:05 AM   #18
Josh Reyer
 
Josh Reyer's Avatar
Location: Aichi-ken, Nagoya-shi
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 644
Japan
Offline
Re: Bushido vs Budo

Quote:
Brian Northrup wrote: View Post
I guess when i say some i mean the samurai. If you read Hagakure, or Bushido or some other classics on Japanese philosophy, they all seem to me to place a great emphasis on learning how to die in a dignified manner, with grace and courage.
Yamamoto Tsunemoto, author of the Hagakure, who never raised his sword in anger: "I have found that Bushido (the Way of the Warrior) is in death."

Miyamoto Musashi, author of the Go Rin no Sho, who'd actually put his life on the line in combat: "Generally speaking, when people contemplate the heart of warrior (bushi) thought, they consider it no better than as a way in which being a warrior is simply in dying. But the way of dying is not limited to warriors alone. For even monks, women, farmers, and the classes below them, there is no distinction in their having a sense of duty, in knowing shame, and in being resolved in their own deaths. What is most basic in the Way of practicing the martial arts is overcoming your opponent in each and any event, whether in victory over a single opponent in a duel, or in victory in a fight with a number of men."

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2009, 12:57 PM   #19
Ketsan
Dojo: Zanshin Kai
Location: Birmingham
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 860
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Bushido vs Budo

Quote:
Joshua Reyer wrote: View Post
Yamamoto Tsunemoto, author of the Hagakure, who never raised his sword in anger: "I have found that Bushido (the Way of the Warrior) is in death."

Miyamoto Musashi, author of the Go Rin no Sho, who'd actually put his life on the line in combat: "Generally speaking, when people contemplate the heart of warrior (bushi) thought, they consider it no better than as a way in which being a warrior is simply in dying. But the way of dying is not limited to warriors alone. For even monks, women, farmers, and the classes below them, there is no distinction in their having a sense of duty, in knowing shame, and in being resolved in their own deaths. What is most basic in the Way of practicing the martial arts is overcoming your opponent in each and any event, whether in victory over a single opponent in a duel, or in victory in a fight with a number of men."
I always thought that the point of "the way of the warrior is found in death" stuff was so that you accepted that you were dead, got past your fear of death and so could get on with life more effectively.

In the heat of the moment you can't worry about survival if you already think of yourself as dead, so you have one less thing to distract you from doing what you need to do to stay alive.

The other point of learning how to die is to learn how to act with dignity even under the most demanding of circumstances, to learn not to telegraph what's going on in your head to an opponent.

Imagine the psychological impact of fighting someone that shows no pain or fear and contrast it with the psychological impact of fighting someone who is clearly afraid and does show pain when you wound them. If you've ever been told off for groaning or pulling a face when sankyo is slammed on, you know what I'm talking about.

Despite searching in vain, there is a quote somewhere that it's the man that throws his life away that survives while the man eager to save his life usually get's killed for just this reason. If I find the quote I'll post it.

Learning to die is not just learning to go and get killed, it's learning how to be in control of yourself in life threatening situations so that you're more likely to be successful.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2009, 05:06 PM   #20
Charles Hill
Dojo: Numazu Aikikai/Aikikai Honbu Dojo
Location: Three Lakes WI/ Mishima Japan
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 837
Offline
Re: Bushido vs Budo

Hey Brian,
Thanks for replying.

Quote:
Brian Northrup wrote: View Post
classics on Japanese philosophy.
You have got to run, not walk, to the bookstore and pick up Thomas Cleary's The Japanese Art of War. You will absolutely love it and learn so much that will complement what you have already read!

Good luck,
Charles
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2009, 08:16 PM   #21
aikishrine
Dojo: aikido of central new york
Location: syracuse,ny
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 143
United_States
Offline
Re: Bushido vs Budo

Quote:
Charles Hill wrote: View Post
Hey Brian,
Thanks for replying.

You have got to run, not walk, to the bookstore and pick up Thomas Cleary's The Japanese Art of War. You will absolutely love it and learn so much that will complement what you have already read!

Good luck,
Charles
Thank Charles, i will go check it out tomorrow. I am always looking for good books to read.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2009, 08:35 PM   #22
Josh Reyer
 
Josh Reyer's Avatar
Location: Aichi-ken, Nagoya-shi
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 644
Japan
Offline
Re: Bushido vs Budo

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
I always thought that the point of "the way of the warrior is found in death" stuff was so that you accepted that you were dead, got past your fear of death and so could get on with life more effectively.
Originally, that's what was about. By Yamamoto's time, though, it had become a kind of death fetish, with men committing junshi (suicide following the death of one's lord) for no good reason, to the point that junshi was outlawed. This was the case of Yamamoto in specific, in that the Hagakure was written after he'd retired into the countryside after being denied the right to commit suicide.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2009, 09:08 PM   #23
Suru
Location: Miami, FL
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 453
United_States
Offline
Re: Bushido vs Budo

In America, bushido tends to lead to the chivalry of the ronin samurai because here, there really is no one for a person to serve with his life. The only exception I can think of right now is the Secret Service agents who would take a bullet for the president. Sure, I've served managers and company owners, but I would never put myself in a state of hardcore self-sacrifice for them. I believe many of the attributes surrounding bushido embody the characters of some people in the U.S. However, there are many, many more people in this country who aren't bad people per se, but they are only in it for number one (themselves).

Budo is, I suppose by direct translation, the martial path. I remember growing up with my friend who did karate. He is one of the gentlest guys I've known. He had rubber nunchaku and a green belt, I believe. We were ~11 at the time. After watching MC Hammer and his parachute pants on MTV, I distinctly remember (flashbulb memory) asking him if he "could [kick someone's butt]." His response was insane to me at the time. He said, "[I'm not supposed to actually use karate]." I was caught between the absurdity and beauty of what he said. It struck some neurological connection in my head and made perfect sense. Why I didn't take up karate that week is beyond me.

Drew
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2009, 10:00 PM   #24
Keith Larman
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,566
United_States
Offline
Re: Bushido vs Budo

I do hereby formally suggest someone put together all the various posts on the umpteen threads that cover Bushido, Hagakure, etc. into one concise article. Then we need a button on the reply to thread page that allows easy direct insertion of the text directly into a reply.

  Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2009, 03:15 AM   #25
Peter Goldsbury
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Peter Goldsbury's Avatar
Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,004
Japan
Offline
Re: Bushido vs Budo

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
I do hereby formally suggest someone put together all the various posts on the umpteen threads that cover Bushido, Hagakure, etc. into one concise article. Then we need a button on the reply to thread page that allows easy direct insertion of the text directly into a reply.
I am planning to discuss Yamamoto, Nitobe et al in Column 16.

PAG

P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Hiroshima, Japan
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Long Island Asian Studies Center - Classes: Aiki Budo/Chi Gong/Tai Chi, Author of: Searching For O'Sensei



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Aikido and the Great Budo Social Mission Jonathan Bannister General 0 04-01-2009 01:58 PM
Definition of Budo dps Language 4 12-09-2007 08:11 AM
Budo, Bushido Mato-san General 34 01-31-2006 09:22 AM
2004 Budo Tai Sai August 15th Oniyama Seminars 0 06-18-2004 01:58 PM
budo vs. bushido Jesse Lee Language 23 08-07-2003 08:21 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:37 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate