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Old 06-02-2009, 07:45 PM   #126
stan baker
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Re: O sensei and 'correct ukemi'

Hi Mike,
why not investigate the obvious the connection between aikido and daito ryu, the other stuff is not that critical pertaining to his martial skill. Check out somebody with high level aiki .

stan
 
Old 06-02-2009, 07:54 PM   #127
Mike Sigman
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Re: O sensei and 'correct ukemi'

Quote:
Stan Baker wrote: View Post
Check out somebody with high level aiki .
So, Ueshiba didn't have "high level aiki"? Who should Aikido people model themselves after, Stan? Perhaps someone you admire?

Best.

Mike Sigman
 
Old 06-02-2009, 10:00 PM   #128
stan baker
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Re: O sensei and 'correct ukemi'

Hi Mike,
I mean somebody right now.

stan
 
Old 06-03-2009, 06:36 AM   #129
DH
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Re: O sensei and 'correct ukemi'

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Dan, this is about the fourth or fifth time. *Anytime* you definitively attribute that I said something, please put the citation. In the past, my position has never been any more than that *some* of Ueshiba's stuff may have come from sources other than Takeda. The only shift I've made is that actually "aiki" (apparently "aiki" as you use it is slightly different from the traditional usage, so I'm using it in the traditional sense) seems more certainly to have come from Takeda himself simply for the reason that I can see one of Takeda's students using it (and bear in mind, that's not definitive in itself). I still leave it open because I don't know (and you don't know) if the supplemental training methodologies came from Takeda or not. There is still a strong possibility that some of the supplemental training came from another discipline (for Ueshiba's Aikido). Given that Ueshiba uses such strong Shintoism in his supplemental practice methods, it's a reasonable and open question about whether he got some of the supplemental training practices through Omoto Kyo.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
Mike
I do not go back and find your posts because you negated true efforts at any conversation between us in the past. Look, you are stating that you didn't change your views. I say you did. That's it. People can look it up, lets drop it, we both have better things to do.

Aiki
You ...are telling me...what aiki is in the traditional Japanese sense? That's interesting.
Define it____________________.
I'll bet good money that you can't. Not that I am being adversarial, that's not it at all. It's just that neither you- nor anyone else- is ever going to get people in the traditional arts --particularly in DR- to agree on what aiki is.

Ueshiba
But once again here your statements Like "There is still a strong possibility that some of the supplemental training came from another discipline." is meaningless. More unsupported speculation. There is an even stronger possibility he didn't need to!
Again, less it escapes your attention, there are men in DR who are NOT surprised in watching Ueshiba, can see what he is doing, knew how to do what he was doing, and how to train it. So it can be argued with much more credibility that he needn't have gone any where else ...ever.

This is too much verbiage. It's water under the bridge, I brought it up because too many times you go after people like you did here, for bringing up DR in conjunction with Ueshiba, all while you yourself continually bring up these "Common Asian elements," and possible, yet still imaginary, and unprovable "additives" from other sources. What's good for the goose is good for the Gander, Mike. You know little about his training in DR Aiki, and outside of that, nothing at all that is provable. All you offer is speculation.
I would suggest you try to "actually" remain open (perhaps to the idea that he got what he got inside of DR and chose to use it in a different way) instead of just paying lip service to the idea of remaining truly open. Or at least try to be a little more circumspect in your comments to others when you yourself have, and are, doing so much arguing…all from unsupported speculation. Then we won't have to keep going down this old and well traveled road.

For the thread
Ukemi
This is a more interesting discussion; both in why and how the aiki lines changed the way the arts were taught, in their ukemi model, and what it did for the players in developing and weirdly -not-developing their bodies. And going back to Ellis's idea of letting the men involved stand on their own two feet; Ukemi is the source of where Ueshiba changed everything.
It started with the Ukemi model, not the aiki.
What was in his mind and vision to fashion it to look the way it did?
What were his goals in establishing it this way?
What was he doing in receiving the way he did?
Did his son continue in that vein....or, did he actually change it again and reverse the roles in a different and more complete way?
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 06-03-2009 at 06:46 AM.
 
Old 06-03-2009, 07:43 AM   #130
Mike Sigman
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Re: O sensei and 'correct ukemi'

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I do not go back and find your posts because you negated true efforts at any conversation between us in the past.
Let's leave it simple, Dan.... when you attribute comments to me and can't back them up (as has happened in the past and you've simply stopped posting until the coast was clear), you don't lay the blame on me with some malarkey about "negating true efforts". I've asked you very simple questions, etc., in the past that you simply dropped... i.e., the breakdown in communications has often seemed to come when you're asked direct questions about how something works, in order to see what you really know/understand. My asking questions to you is one thing; you posting unsupported and incorrect attributions while using my name is something quite different. It seems other people remember clearly that this problem of you stating what I say or believe is not a new one, so I don't feel like prolonging the discussion any further.
Quote:
Aiki
You ...are telling me...what aiki is in the traditional Japanese sense? That's interesting.
Define it____________________.
I'd forgotten how special you are. Sorry. What I have done in the past three or four times is post a good general definition of "Aiki" from Inaba Minoru:

Quote:
However, even if you grasp timing, if you don't focus your power or energy you cannot do anything. In the human body the area to focus power is the lower abdomen (kafuku tanden).

Power focused here is defensive power; power going out is offensive power.

How can you put forth offensive power? The first thing you have to do is to focus the power in your center. Offensive power will naturally flow if you focus your power in the center. That is forceful power (iryoku). It is a condition of focused energy that becomes center energy. In budo, people use the terms "bui" or "iryoku", don't they? Most important in martial arts is "iwoharu," showing this powerfully focused energy. It's not good to pretend that you have energy (karaibari). Try to use the energy in the lower abdomen. You can call this energy focused "ki" energy. If you don't have center energy, you are bluffing. Really, you have to develop this energy. The energy will flow naturally if you can focus it in the lower abdomen. If you understand this point, you will understand how to develop your body and mind and how you should train.

If you forget this essential point, you'll think only about winning, and you won't have the power to keep centered. This power won't be released and you will be destroyed.

You do exercises to straighten up your back muscles and relax your shoulders. Drop your focus to your lower abdomen. If you do that, you'll find your center point and you will produce center energy. If your center is not developed, you won't have ki energy available to project through your fingers.

If you take excess energy from the upper body and train the lower body as in sumo wrestling, and if you train the energy of the lower abdomen, you will develop your center energy. You use that power wherever necessary.

Even though you focus the energy in your lower abdomen, you will not be able to move the energy to the area where you need it right away. You have to think about how you are going to move it. You have to think about two things, gathering and filling up the power, and then moving the power to where the opponent will attack. Also if you have a weapon, you have to project energy through the weapon. If you understand this point, you'll know how to train and what you need to develop. At the same moment you meet your opponent, you focus on your abdomen (hara) and project your ki where you need it. The result will be that you will shut down your opponent's power. I understand that as the power of "aiki."
Quote:
I'll bet good money that you can't.
I just posted that interview again so there you go. In terms of you paying money that's owed, you don't have a good reputation for paying up, so I won't add to your burden.
Quote:
Not that I am being adversarial, that's not it at all. It's just that neither you- nor anyone else- is ever going to get people in the traditional arts --particularly in DR- to agree on what aiki is.
Inaba's definition is good enough and follows the general *traditional* meaning, including when the same phenomenon is called "Hua Jin" by Chinese.
Quote:
This is too much verbiage. It's water under the bridge, I brought it up because too many times you go after people like you did here, for bringing up DR in conjunction with Ueshiba, all while you yourself continually bring up these "Common Asian elements," and possible, yet still imaginary, and unprovable "additives" from other sources. What's good for the goose is good for the Gander, Mike. You know little about his training in DR Aiki, and outside of that, nothing at all that is provable. All you offer is speculation.
I would suggest you try to "actually" remain open (perhaps to the idea that he got what he got inside of DR and chose to use it in a different way) instead of just paying lip service to the idea of remaining truly open. Or at least try to be a little more circumspect in your comments to others when you yourself have, and are, doing so much arguing…all from unsupported speculation. Then we won't have to keep going down this old and well traveled road.
Why not just take the clue that the repeated diminishment of Ueshiba and the selling of Takeda is unnecessary, particularly in light of the regularity you and your followers bring it up? Enough said? Why not just make technical points based on your own understanding and leave statements about other people out of the discussions? And of course, don't feel that I am in any way suggesting that you or your followers quit talking about you yourself; that is, of course, up to you guys.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 06-03-2009, 08:44 AM   #131
oisin bourke
 
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Re: O sensei and 'correct ukemi'

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
Mark Murray wrote:

W That aikido people weren't interested in it is quite understandable, really. Have you ever seen a DR demo in Japan? They don't demo the "aiki" stuff - they mostly do a rather stiff, mannered, often lumpish jujutsu. From what is presented publicly, there has been little to tempt an aikidoka - because the DR people have been covering up their own stuff! They weren't showing anything interesting. If they had, I would have joined in a heartbeat. I didn't know it existed - not from what they were presenting.

E. Amdur
I wasn't in Japan in The 1970's (I was busy being born ). However, there is ample filmed and photographed footage of Horikawa performing Aiki techniques in schools, community centers etc all around Hokkaido throughout the late 60's/70's. He even appeared on TV!

Dunno what the situation in Tokyo was then, but DR in Hokkaido has been sorely overlooked IMHO.
 
Old 06-03-2009, 09:06 AM   #132
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: O sensei and 'correct ukemi'

Hi Mike,
I already so totally regret writing this, but I will post it..

Quote:
about "negating true efforts".
Mike -- you see me trying. And twisting in the wind. And you will not offer. I do not know Dan, but even animals can sense kindness. In words, in action and intent.
Men just trying their best. And sometimes it isn't good enough. But the works stand on their own and will be measured, tried and tested.

Quote:
..in order to see what you really know/understand.
We all do that. At some point young Mike Sigman did the same. Now you are one of our Seniors, and one of the best here on these pages. You owe no man anything. None of use owe anyone anything. Life is short. Do we give of ourselves? Or take? Either way. There is no third choice. Yes I am asking, knowing well what the answer likely is. Hoping for a change of heart.

Reputation, Ego, Knowledge. Baggage. We *are* what we *are* and we stand alone. The true value is not in the knowledge but in how we choose to wield it. You know all this.

Quote:
What I have done in the past three or four times is post a good general definition of "Aiki" from Inaba Minoru
Aye, but they are not your words. You agree with them, but you go no further. It is a good quote, and an instructive one, to be sure. But isn't there so much more that can be said...?

Quote:
Why not just take the clue that the repeated diminishment of Ueshiba and the selling of Takeda is unnecessary, particularly in light of the regularity you and your followers bring it up?
I think the questions of origins are important to indicate that O Sensei did not have sole exclusive rights to this, nor are they necessarily inextricably intertwined with the philosophy.

Quote:
Why not just make technical points based on your own understanding ..
That would be wonderful if everyone did that. But spidey-sense says that ain't going to happen. No matter how much we each, individually want it to. People, in general, are reluctant to give away perceived power. I do not think it is a case of pearls before swine so much as identification with a role, and the utter paucity of the printed word in conveying meaning. It is hard. And likely to fail. But is the ‘hand up' you spoke of worth trying? It is hard to say. You already know what I think. And hope.

Quote:
And of course, don't feel that I am in any way suggesting that you or your followers quit talking about you yourself; that is, of course, up to you guys.
Mike, this is a function of the kindness mentioned earlier. It is not too much more than that, as far as I can tell.

I am sorry that this is completely off topic of the thread.
Josh

Last edited by thisisnotreal : 06-03-2009 at 09:07 AM. Reason: doubt
 
Old 06-03-2009, 09:06 AM   #133
DH
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Re: O sensei and 'correct ukemi'

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Why not just take the clue that the repeated diminishment of Ueshiba and the selling of Takeda is unnecessary, particularly in light of the regularity you and your followers bring it up? Enough said? Why not just make technical points based on your own understanding and leave statements about other people out of the discussions?
Regards,
Mike Sigman
Interesting reply.
I think your replies in this thread alone demonstrate what I am talking about.
Where does misquoting me, misquoting others by intent and trying to make it inflammatory, diminishing people and casting aspersions on them and reading in all manner of ugly innuendo add up to positive and condusive communication or any attempt at trying? Case in point:
No one is diminishing Ueshiba anywhere and several examples were cited. You created that in your own head and run with it. Mark has done more in posting links to prove the skills being demonstrated by Ueshiba than anyone in recent memory and then defended t
I never said how special -I- was and instead pointed out clearly that no one will agree on what aiki is. Here it is again if it helps you to read and think instead of "reading-in" all manner of negative personal attributes wherever you can invent them.
You ...are telling me...what aiki is in the traditional Japanese sense? That's interesting.
Define it____________________.
I'll bet good money that you can't. Not that I am being adversarial, that's not it at all. It's just that neither you- nor anyone else- is ever going to get people in the traditional arts --particularly in DR- to agree on what aiki is."

I think my intent is clear-so is your's.

Sorry that I have not satisfied you when I have refused to answer your questions about how to's and what I know during your many fishing expeditions for information. I never found a need to. I am content to that you occasionally correct your erroneous assumptions about what you thought -you-knew about various Japanese arts. Why not take your own advice save everyone some trouble. Instead of misquoting others and being nasty- stick to the subject. You might once again learn something that you didn't know

Dan
 
Old 06-03-2009, 09:14 AM   #134
DH
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Re: O sensei and 'correct ukemi'

Quote:
Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
I wasn't in Japan in The 1970's (I was busy being born ). However, there is ample filmed and photographed footage of Horikawa performing Aiki techniques in schools, community centers etc all around Hokkaido throughout the late 60's/70's. He even appeared on TV!

Dunno what the situation in Tokyo was then, but DR in Hokkaido has been sorely overlooked IMHO.
Hello Oisin
True enough. We might consider what schools of any type cared or wanted their art to be known; either outside of their district, or outside of Japan, much less in any printed medium- by choice.
I remember Stan talking of making introductions, planning, making the trip up to Hokkaido and being turned away, other times not getting much by way of forth coming answers. It's not all negative, its just a choice. I know of one teacher who was furious that a discussion with Stan turned into an interview, he didn't want to be known or quoted at all. So it goes.

In any event, Ellis pointed out clearly that the possibility existed for two different experiences dependant on where you were, and when.
Cheers
Dan
 
Old 06-03-2009, 09:36 AM   #135
oisin bourke
 
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Re: O sensei and 'correct ukemi'

Thanks for your reply Dan.

I didn't mean to imply that DR was (or is) particularly accessible in Japan (even now), and, FWIW, I agree with Ellis's points RE a lot of the jujutsu. I've seen guys who move like bears with arthritis.

I actually attended a workshop with Ellis years ago and found his jujustu beautiful.

I merely wanted to point out that at least one notable exponent was apparently quite happily showing "Aiki" stuff in public back "in the day."

Have you come across the Feb 2008 edition of Hiden?
 
Old 06-03-2009, 08:49 PM   #136
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: O sensei and 'correct ukemi'

Quote:
What was in his mind and vision to fashion it to look the way it did?
What were his goals in establishing it this way?
A peaceful world.
The reconciliation of all beings. By building yourself up and choosing peace you yourself could bring peace to both parties.
And save the other from violating the way, himself and you, all at the same time.
By building yourself up, technically, and by ceaselessly polishing the jewel of aiki, this could be done.
And it would be in line with the will of Heaven.
He talked about becoming companion to the kami.
And following the natural order of Heaven.

Didn`t he?

Listen while reading.

[spoiler]
The vast Universe!
The Way of Aiki to become
The light of all mankind
Opening all the world.

Put the active principle (yo) into the right hand
Turn the left into the passive (in)
And so guide the adversary.

By means of the way
Call out the misguided enemy
Advance and persuade him with words of instruction
Through the Sword of Love.

With "Eiiii" cut him down!
That enemy that lurks within
Instruct him with "yah"
Guide him with "Toh".

A person who
In any situation
Perceives the truth with resignation
Would never need to draw his sword in haste.

Pour your spirit and heart
Into daily technical training
To approach the many through a single principle
This is "The Way of the Fighting Man".

Always and always
Pour yourself into technical training
To face the multitude as if it were one
Is the Way of the Shugo-sha.

First master the techniques of Aiki
The way of the Gods
Then no enemy will ever attack.

The form and beauty that is the world of Heaven and Earth
Has become one family.

Though we may honor it
We can never praise enough
The godly technique of the Way of Aiki
The godly technique of the small gate.

The purification techniques (misogi-waza)
I have learned from God and Revelation
Aiki is built by the god(s).

Masakatsu and Agatsu
By Aiki with the spirit of the Godly Parent
Save and invigorate
Your own body and soul.

The Way of the Gods!
Give in to the life of the Universe of
Heaven and Earth
Thus draw nearer and nearer
To a spirit who serves the Godhead.

The Way of our Gods!
The clear and those red and white
The Way of Aiki is one of the divine techniques
To which only a narrow gate does lead.

Mobilize all (your) powers through Aiki
Build a beautiful world
And a secure peace

Even the most powerful human being
has a limited sphere of strength.
Draw him outside of that sphere
and into your own, and his strength will dissipate.

"You must realize this!
Aiki cannot be captured with the brush
Nor can it be expressed with the mouth
And so it is that one must proceed
to realization."

Blend with (ki-musubi) the
Universe of Heaven and Earth (tenchi)
Stand in the center (of all)
In your heart take up the stance
Of "The Way of the Mountain Echo." (Yamabiko)

Blend the ki within the self (ki-musubi)
Stand erect in the very center
Polish the spirit
mind (kokoro)
"The Way of the Mountain Echo".

In the self-mind standing always
In the very center of it I do live
The stance (kamae) of Love is
"The Way of the Mountain Echo.

Aiki!
The root of the power of love
A love that must grow ever broader.

This world is built up
Of living-life (iki-inochi) of the breath of life (iki-inichi) and the
saving power of the Universal (iki-inochi)
All spinning and flourishing
The jewel-like Aiki of the Spirit (tama-no-aiki).

Left and Right
Cut or parry
Discard all thought of them
The human spirit must rush instantly in!

Aiki!
A way so difficult to analyse
(But one needs only to) follow
The natural rotations of the
Heavens.

Aiki is the power of harmony between all things
Polish it ceaselessly
You people of the Way.

The honored techniques of Ki
May manifest the spirit of the Great Snake
Or that of Bees
To make such spirits (tama) appear
Is the Way of Takemusu.

The precious techniques of Ki!
They, the spirits (tama) does subdue and pacify
IN these techniques of misogi purification
Please direct us, Oh gods of Heaven and Earth!

In these teachings listen most
To the rhythm of the strike and thrust
To train in the basics (omote)
Is to practice the very secrets of the art.
[/spoiler]

Quote:
What was he doing in receiving the way he did?
He maintained a state of aiki in his body.
He initiated ki-no musubi, blending with ki of attacker.
He drew strength into himself and out of the enemy.
Forming a union.
And brought peace to all encounters
With a spirit of loving protection.
 
Old 06-03-2009, 09:16 PM   #137
Mike Sigman
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Re: O sensei and 'correct ukemi'

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Sorry that I have not satisfied you when I have refused to answer your questions about how to's and what I know during your many fishing expeditions for information.
Dan, why don't you get off the ego trip? I've put plenty of information on the internet over the years and you've obviously researched it and benefitted from it, based on your own posts about things I've written (I've never even bothered to Google anything you've written in the past).

I think we've gotten past the phase where you can rationalize that what you know is from any koryu to the extent that you *must* keep it secret, as you've tried to indicate in the past. If you want to honestly share things, start putting more information and less self-hype on various forums. About the only thing I'm interested in hearing from you is *how* you attempt to describe things, not *what* you know. The question of *how* people describe these things has been a question I've asked people for decades... long before you came on the scene.

Incidentally, Inaba's description is pretty good. The question is why there are such diverse methods of describing these things, particularly in Japan. Ueshiba's descriptions I discussed in posts before, and noted the contrast with how Tohei *can* describe things. Inaba was pretty clear and Kuroda's description is classical "heaven-earth-man" but in a western science mode. On this forum I've left quite a number of posts with lengthy descriptions and diagrams. So far I haven't seen any information from you that puts you in a league where I would be "fishing" for anything you know. Besides, you were the one trying to access the QiJin forum posts, not me trying to find out anything from you. If you want to get on QiJin legitimately you need to give some indication that you know enough broad-spectrum information to be there. So far, as I've said in the past, all I see is that you have some knowledge about jin skills.

In terms of the descriptions by Ueshiba and the focus on Ukemi as being a definitive point in Ueshiba's training, I've never yet been convinced. Ueshiba was so cryptic in things he said that although I can see a general indication of traditional Chinese-like discussion, I've personally never seen anything that made me sure that his meaning about ukemi was what some people attibute to him. Maybe, maybe not. I'm in neutral about it.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 06-04-2009, 09:00 AM   #138
DH
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Re: O sensei and 'correct ukemi'

It's interesting to see your dynamic. In your posts, you accuse someone of X behavior and then display that behavior in the body of the post. Here relating to ego. Where does insulting me-an occasional pastime of yours- have anything to do with this thread? You are a very peculiar man.
I'd be happy to acknowledge you as a source had you written or offered anything that affected my training in anyway. Research is a good thing so I don't shy away from it.
The one thing I have, is many visitors coming here. These people; student and teachers alike have both felt and reported back that my senior people-are people with power and aiki. People who have trained here from 7, to fifteen years. It's all rather transparent. I could go check with them to see if they had ever heard of you back then, but I happen to know it would be a waste of time-since I was the one who taught them and not one of us had ever heard of you. You meant nothing to me or them during all those years of training, you mean nothing to them or me now.

Get over yourself, Mike. The little you have written has been of the most basic type, and while it has helped awareness of the topic for many beginners, it was of no good use at all to certain of us who saw it for what it was.

Ukemi
The reason you don't see the things about Ueshiba mistakenly attribute it to a focus on Ukemi is that you do not know the subject. Its not even a discussion about that. Its a discussionabout from whence it came and what differentiated it from what and why. I would expect you to remain neutral about it, since its not a topic you can engage in.
Cheers
Dan
 
Old 06-04-2009, 09:27 AM   #139
Mike Sigman
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Re: O sensei and 'correct ukemi'

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
The one thing I have, is many visitors coming here. These people; student and teachers alike have both felt and reported back that my senior people-are people with power and aiki. People who have trained here from 7, to fifteen years.
Yes, and some of them have talked to me.
Quote:
The little you have written has been of the most basic type, and while it has helped awareness of the topic for many beginners, it was of no good use at all to certain of us who saw it for what it was.
That seems to go against some of your students who say most of your insights have been in very recent years, but regardless, let's just say all the posts you've made about what you can do and how long you've done things are in question.... does that move the debate forward? No. Neither does the discussion about how much Ueshiba owed to Takeda. I'm all for people just making their case factually and getting away from the personality or the "here's what I can do" or "here's how many newbies I've impressed". That's part of why a lot of this stuff was lost in Aikido and other arts... people jumped too quickly in trying to create their own little fiefdoms. I have little use for it.

In terms of basic information, let's see a little bit from you in a few posts. Put it in writing. It might help you and others if you have to articulate things. Cady once said something about how she would handle me by "reaching through" me, or something of similar wording. I tried to ask her later to articulate it better, but she never responded. She doesn't "reach through" me if she's trying to affect my forces.... what is she really doing to someone? In other words, I encourage people to try and more clearly articulate what is really happening because they need to understand the mechanics before they can move onto other stuff. If you're stuck with a "feel this" and "feel that" level, then you're going to miss out on a lot of stuff. Hence my encouragement that people voice things more clearly.
Quote:
The reason you don't see the things about Ueshiba mistakenly attribute it to a focus on Ukemi is that you do not know the subject. Its not even a discussion about that. Its a discussionabout from whence it came and what differentiated it from what and why. I would expect you to remain neutral about it, since its not a topic you can engage in.
Thank you for your teaching, O Dan.

Mike
 
Old 06-04-2009, 09:51 AM   #140
akiy
 
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Re: O sensei and 'correct ukemi'

Yet another thread turned into a personal discussion.

Thread closed.

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