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Old 05-20-2009, 06:48 AM   #1
Blake Evans
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Ki: Attack without contact?

hey guys,
so i have always looked at Ki in a fairly simple way that being moment, body mechanics and "focusing" on a specific area of your or another's body. Because of this view i seem to think you always need contact to preform a throw (with the odd exception).

after a discussion on this topic i was shown this "Ueshiba the Archmage ?" and found it a little hard to believe.

My question is has anyone seen this in "real life" and can it be done? i think there are a few to many people around like this... your thoughts?
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Old 05-20-2009, 02:28 PM   #2
Michael Hackett
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Re: Ki: Attack without contact?

I personally don't believe in the "no touch" throws that seem to be mentioned every now and again. What I sometimes have seen though is Uke knowing full well what's coming, having to take a fall in order to avoid the pain of an atemi or hard technique. I used to train with a female sandan who simply couldn't be thrown with an iriminage. She hated to have her face touched or struck in any manner and she would simply disappear into a beautiful fall. She stuck out everything else and you'd better capture her balance. I think we saw a little of that in the clip.

Michael
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Old 05-20-2009, 02:44 PM   #3
Janet Rosen
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Re: Ki: Attack without contact?

I think that many demonstrations of no touch throws are based on explicit or implicit agreements between nage and uke about their respective roles. Having said that...
a few times I have had my feet go out from under me not because I "knew what was coming" but in circumstances when nage and I were both in motion AND my balance was already mostly taken, the only place to go to avoid a strong atemi was straight down - not as a conscious decision, just my body reacting. It's usually on a fast frontal iriminage; it's rare and unexpected and always makes me laugh and i've done it to another once or twice over the yrs equally unexpectedly.

Janet Rosen
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Old 05-20-2009, 03:06 PM   #4
John A Butz
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Re: Ki: Attack without contact?

In my opinion, the only real value in that clip is found in the segment where Ueshiba is receiving the push against his leg, and then projects the uke away. I am not really sure what the rest of that is supposed to be, but that knee push is very interesting stuff directly related to the training of ki and kokyu.
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Old 05-20-2009, 03:12 PM   #5
HL1978
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Re: Ki: Attack without contact?

Look into the concept of seme in kendo
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Old 05-20-2009, 06:36 PM   #6
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Re: Ki: Attack without contact?

Quote:
Blake Evans wrote: View Post
hey guys,
so i have always looked at Ki in a fairly simple way that being moment, body mechanics and "focusing" on a specific area of your or another's body. Because of this view i seem to think you always need contact to preform a throw (with the odd exception).

after a discussion on this topic i was shown this "Ueshiba the Archmage ?" and found it a little hard to believe.

...your thoughts?
The first 3 seconds or so I have no idea what the premise is...possibly something to do with ma'ai? My guess on most of the rest is that this is using ki (i.e. intent) to lead uke into position. The throw at the end in particular seemed to finish with contact. I'm guessing the premise is something like, give uke a target so enticing they put themselves into a bad position trying to get it...the old bait and switch, really. Just as contact is about to be made, nage makes it clear contact would be a bad idea. Of course, uke has to get the picture before it will work so it will be considerably less effective against some folks than others, particularly when you consider some people are less suggestable than others.

I couldn't really say though...I've only been no-touch thrown by my imagination (when first practicing ukemi) and a very sneaky eye-level branch.
I can still see in stereo vision!

Last edited by mathewjgano : 05-20-2009 at 06:40 PM.

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Old 05-20-2009, 09:33 PM   #7
Spinmaster
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Re: Ki: Attack without contact?

Aikido without contact is like a gun without a bullet.
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Old 05-20-2009, 09:42 PM   #8
Blake Evans
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Re: Ki: Attack without contact?

Quote:
John Butz wrote: View Post
... but that knee push is very interesting stuff directly related to the training of ki and kokyu.
yeah that I did find very interesting, almost reminds me of the Bruce Lee "one inch punch" you can see he drops his weight/energy/Ki into the push.

and please don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Morihei Ueshiba O Sensei was "faking it" as you can see a few throws do have contact and a mechanical side to it (and if he was to throw me I think I would be getting out the was just as fast as they did) I just was confused over the first part and the arm raising thing... then I watch that other video and got rather offended haha
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Old 05-21-2009, 01:07 AM   #9
Buck
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Re: Ki: Attack without contact?

A conditioned response. It is happening in real life, the point of contention for me is on a not trained person who has no idea what you are about to, or try to, do. Who is coming at you with all they got, like a run away train. A person who isn't trained to respond, consciously or not. We all after awhile get conditioned to respond to the Shi', especially if that person is the sensei or high rank. I think that is what makes those kind of waza's work.
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Old 05-21-2009, 08:07 AM   #10
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Re: Ki: Attack without contact?

Quote:
Glen Luke Flanagan wrote: View Post
Aikido without contact is like a gun without a bullet.
It becomes a club?

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 05-21-2009, 05:44 PM   #11
aikidoc
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Re: Ki: Attack without contact?

I can only think of this example without sychophantic students.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I

I also like the yellow bamboo guys.

http://www.yellowbamboo.net/demonstrations.htm
http://skepdic.com/yellowbamboo.html

No need for further comment.

I do think no-touch throws are possible with timing by nage and recognition by uke that not to bail out is a dangerous outcome.
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Old 05-22-2009, 05:17 AM   #12
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Re: Ki: Attack without contact?

Some atemi can have effects similar to throwing without touching, because they create a reflex in uke that leads to his or her loss of balance.

When two persons are involved in a fight-like situation, the body is very much moved by reflexes, to be fast enough. It's instinct. Such reflexes can be induced in refined ways that lead to the opponent moving as if controlled without touch.

Of course, it's not fool-proof. But what techniques are?

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Old 05-22-2009, 10:33 AM   #13
HL1978
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Re: Ki: Attack without contact?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kizeme
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Old 05-22-2009, 02:44 PM   #14
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Re: Ki: Attack without contact?

Here are some real life examples of no contact throws:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rtBp...m =PL&index=2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnPNM...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhyMzzKfJ0w

No touch throws happen in contact sports all the time. It's simply a matter of convincing your attacker that you are going to be in one place, getting him to commit, and then getting out before he gets there. Simple, but not easy!

You have to remember O-sensei was a very old man in that video. If your grandpa told you he could show you how someone can use timing to throw another person, would you charge him full force? No because you would be way out of line.

It doesn't mean that he can't show you the essence of what you need to do, it simply means he's not a young man that can take a hard hit if something goes wrong.

Right now I let my students plow into me as hard as they can. I'm in my 30's, I'm very fit and able. It's great training for me to let them try to get me full force. In 20 years or so, I won't be doing that. It will be time to start protecting myself. It's very likely that after 20 more years of doing the training that I'm doing now, I will be much better at using Aiki. This means I will be better at teaching you what you should do, it would however be foolish for me, and inconsiderate of you to attack full force.

O-sesei's uke's are being sensitive to the situation, and helping to illustrate what is happening in the timing. Could he really throw them with out contact at his age, maybe, probably not, but maybe. However I'm certain that after a life time of training he would have some really excellent things to tell you about how you could do it, and you'd be wise to listen.

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Old 05-22-2009, 05:10 PM   #15
Mike Sigman
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Re: Ki: Attack without contact?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Here are some real life examples of no contact throws:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rtBp...m =PL&index=2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnPNM...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhyMzzKfJ0w

No touch throws happen in contact sports all the time. It's simply a matter of convincing your attacker that you are going to be in one place, getting him to commit, and then getting out before he gets there. Simple, but not easy!
Hi Chris:

Well, "no touch" throws do have a lot to do with misdirection (as did the video clips you referenced), but there's a bit more to it than that. Where someone's force is going is *part* of the whole ki-paradigm that has to do with strength and forces (ki and strength are inextricably intertwined), but the misdirection is not the focal point that is important. Where the opponent's force is directed is of course part of the equation and where your own force is directed is part of the equation, but the bigger picture has to do with being able to direct your own forces, not just misdirect the opponent.

I just realized that it would take a lot of typing to try to express what's going on and I'd wind up back in the usual morass. What am I thinking? Let me just leave it with the idea that it's a little more complicated, as I understand it. It has to do with O-Sensei's abilities to redirect forces with his mind and IF someone is fairly practiced, it *is* possible to 'feel' something, in some cases. I don't think it's a martially viable or important point (this feeling thing), but it's a known phenomenon and one which sort of nonplussed little ole engineer-type me. But let's leave it until we meet up sometime.

Best.

Mike

Last edited by Mike Sigman : 05-22-2009 at 05:13 PM.
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Old 05-22-2009, 06:03 PM   #16
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Re: Ki: Attack without contact?

Wonderful examples. That's what I mean. In football, the attackers certainly don't want to throw themselves to the ground. But good timing and sophisticated manipulation of their reflexes makes that happen. What can be done in budo is quite similar.
No mystery, but not easy.

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Old 05-22-2009, 06:10 PM   #17
Suru
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Re: Ki: Attack without contact?

I watched a few of the videos. O'Sensei must have been teaching his students something, beyond delusion that he could really throw any attacker without contact. The one that is supposed to be Aikido (white dogi with hakama) is either first announced as a mutually planned exercise, or is a complete defilement to our martial art. "There is no magic ki," Saotome Shihan said to us at a seminar. With this, I concur totally. I just hope that people who don't know much about Aikido are not getting the wrong impression from these WWF-esque demonstrations.

Drew
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Old 05-25-2009, 08:29 AM   #18
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Re: Ki: Attack without contact?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
[snip]
I just realized that it would take a lot of typing to try to express what's going on and I'd wind up back in the usual morass. What am I thinking? Let me just leave it with the idea that it's a little more complicated, as I understand it. It has to do with O-Sensei's abilities to redirect forces with his mind and IF someone is fairly practiced, it *is* possible to 'feel' something, in some cases. I don't think it's a martially viable or important point (this feeling thing), but it's a known phenomenon and one which sort of nonplussed little ole engineer-type me. But let's leave it until we meet up sometime.

Best.

Mike
Hi Mike -
Is there any way someone could encourage you to try again anyway?
Some may hear ...

And if not, could you say anything about why ... it leaves you 'nonplussed'? Is it because it is way too sensitive a function of the players? Meaning; Wouldn't easily work?

Take Care,
Josh

Last edited by thisisnotreal : 05-25-2009 at 08:43 AM.
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Old 05-25-2009, 09:36 AM   #19
Mike Sigman
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Re: Ki: Attack without contact?

Well, let me try to keep it as short as I can. A couple of years ago I did a quickie class at Aikido of Northern Virginia and after leading everyone through a couple of basic ki-strength/kokyu/jin exercises I led everyone through a short Shaolin qigong that is used to "bring out the emitted qi". The qigong results in most people being able to feel an odd magnetic feeling like a beam from their middle finger of one hand and it's fun to watch the surprised look on a lot of peoples' faces. So that part of the discussion about the "feeling" of an emitted odd something can be supported by someone who was there. This odd sensation is, BTW, the same thing that Reiki practitioners use; it's not that hard to do and most people can be led up to it fairly quickly. Anyone further interested in this oddity can find discussions of it in the sceptical David Eisenberg's "Encounters with Qi" or in "Energy Medicine: the Scientific Basis" by James L. Oschman.

The point is that there is a "feeling" that can be established between people; fully real, mostly psychological, etc., I don't know for sure. It's not something I get too involved with. But let's just assume, for talking purposes, that there is something resembling a field-effect associated with people and that other people can sometimes feel another person's field.

The second topic has to do with the "ki strength" forces and the breath-training of the body. As a person's abilities in those two trainings/conditionings progresses, their "field" coincidentally increases. I know of some teachers that check for your overall conditioning by feeling the amount of "field" between your palms.

The "field" is not strong enough to do anything (hence I tend to ignore it beyond the idea that there is such a thing), but a lot of students react either to the odd feeling or to the psychology of a putative field. It's common to see this teacher-student-field thing in Asia. However, it's a complex topic (more than I want to go into) and my main point is that Ueshiba waving his hand and the student overreacting are not provably real, provably false, etc., phenomena and I just shrug when I see it (I'm mainly indifferent).

But to return to the idea that as your ki/kokyu skills increase, so does your "field". This is worth thinking about. If someone has the skill to "feel" or otherwise determine the directions of an opponents intended forces or if a skilled person can cause an opponent to react to a false "field-induced" sense of force, the whole fantasy could have some slight basis in fact. Personally, I don't think that the effect would be usable in a real fight so I don't pursue the topic any further. But I just leave the topic as "answer unknown" and I don't make much judgement about it. Too often in the past when I've made judgements of what I thought were absurd woo-woo things, I found out that there was indeed some sort of basis that I hadn't known about.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 05-25-2009, 10:08 AM   #20
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Re: Ki: Attack without contact?

Mike -
Thank you for your response.
All the Best,
Josh

Last edited by thisisnotreal : 05-25-2009 at 10:15 AM.
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Old 05-29-2009, 06:34 AM   #21
Nick
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Re: Ki: Attack without contact?

My favorite clip comes from the "Ki Master" vs the MMA fighter, seen as the first videos here:

http://www.dbskeptic.com/2008/05/29/...uch-knockouts/

I've always said that if I could find someone who could throw me without my consent and without touching me, I'd sign up that day. Misdirection and manipulation are one thing... using "Ki" to throw someone without touching them is, at least every time I've encountered it...

Pure Bullshido .

Nick

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Old 06-01-2009, 03:58 PM   #22
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Re: Ki: Attack without contact?

Ueshiba was a very strong individual, as a young man and well into his golden years. It is said he could crush the bones in your wrist with his bare hands. I believe, from listening to those who know more than I do, that in the latter years of life he became more "mystical", doing dojo cleansings with his jo and barely lifting his hand to throw people. Alot of people diefied him and he may have started to believe his own hype.

Timing is critical in a technique. I have been thrown (and have thrown people) without being touched physically (Shizumi otoshi). But this is due to a reaction caused from perfect timing and the firing of the proper muscles, not because of some "magic force". If you run hard at someone and, just as you get within distance, they hold out an outstretched finger at your eye, you will do amazing things to keep from impaling yourself on that finger. Fact.

But, personally, I think what was seen, in the clip provided, was nothing less than brainwashing by a mysterious old man that had many hero worshipers. He did have impecable timing, but in most of those cases there was too much time and distance for that effect to take place by an honest uke.

But, how long do you think you would be at his dojo if you didn't fall? If you didn't fall, he may just put some Ki into you the old fashioned way and grab your wrist... crush the bones. You will learn to fall before he touches you

"Great faith tempered with great doubt," I believe what I can feel. If it is true, then show me, I really want to know. Someone throughout all this time would have duplicated that phenominon if it was real. If it was possible, he would have wanted that as well, I'm sure. But,people do like to feel "special", its only human.

Bruno
"A warrior is not about perfection or victory or invulnerability. He's about absolute vulnerability."
- Socrates
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Old 06-01-2009, 11:49 PM   #23
Abasan
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Re: Ki: Attack without contact?

A more contemporary example of no touch throws can be seen by mikhail ryabko's beyond the physical videos. Its probably on youtube or something. He does this in his wrestling videos as well and strikes.

The thing is, he makes it look simple and when you try it, its actually very hard to do, but it is doable. He teaches his students and some of them get it in the first class. Not great, but they can do it.

And yes it is about timing, positioning and tricking the opponent. Its the how they do it that's important.

When his student was asked how it felt like, he described it aptly like 'I try to catch and him and I feel he is within my grasp, but as I grip tightly he's no longer there... like air, so I miss and lose balance'. Part of how this works like magic is because the partner tenses up slightly in anticipation of the grab and when they miss it, its like a falling statue. I feel the same why when I try to grab my Aikido teacher.

Remember Osensei said the power of 10? If uke comes with power of 9, you give power of 1. In essence that's all.

The other thing is, they demonstrate how easy it is to deflect an opponents power away from the body. Whether its coming from a strike, grab or whatever. They relax and shrug the person off. But they don't do it standing still. A big part of the power comes from movement. So you'll see my meaning when you look around for the other no touch throws. The masters that do it while moving are doing something entirely plausible. The masters that do it while standing still and arm waving... now err... well you think about.

Of course this is probably not what mike sigman is all about. The energy work they are looking at is something else I think and whether that can be used for no touch throws would be interesting to ponder.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 06-02-2009, 07:24 AM   #24
Mike Sigman
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Re: Ki: Attack without contact?

Quote:
Ahmad Abas wrote: View Post
Of course this is probably not what mike sigman is all about.
The Hokey Pokey is what I'm all about.

Mike
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