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Old 05-29-2009, 08:24 PM   #51
Ketsan
Dojo: Zanshin Kai
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

Quote:
Ryan Larson wrote: View Post
Okay, so to be more specific, what I'm looking for is some evidence that isn't purely (and fantastically) anecdotal. Even videos of situations where Aikido may not defeat another martial art or a brawler, but at least holds its own for a long time.
You wont find that kind of evidence about any art. Fights are usually over in less than a minute. Even in a world where everyone carries a video camera no-one could get it out quick enough to record the fight.
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Old 05-29-2009, 09:08 PM   #52
JO
Dojo: Aikikai de l'Université Laval
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

Ryan. First of all, your first example of aikido vs mma isn't an aikido guy (don't believe the titles of online clips, I've seen an aikido instructor throwing his student in a dem labled as Aikido vs jiujitsu, just because the student wasn't wearing a hakama). Second, the minute you start fighting, you are no longer doing aikido. You might use skills learnt in aikido, but aikido it is not. I will regularly put more resistance in my training and this can rapidly break down into a low level grappling match. I learn useful things from this. One is that I can feel the difference in how I think, feel and move, right down to the center of my bones, when I switch from aikido to fighting (even though it is just friendly playfighting). The change would be even greater if I were to give in to aggressiveness.

Jonathan Olson
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Old 05-31-2009, 05:10 PM   #53
Ruairidh
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Freaky! does Aikido work in the street?

the thing is i cant seem to get into the mental state of mind to use aikido in a fightim only a yelow belt but i can block things i just cant remember to use it when a punch is coming.

can you help me?
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Old 05-31-2009, 05:48 PM   #54
Dan Richards
Dojo: Latham Eclectic
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Re: does Aikido work in the street?

Hi Ruairidh,

Well, you could continue to be insecure and freaked out, and get into fights.

Or you might come back in a few years when you have enough training under your belt that you can actually begin to apply it, and let us know how it's going.

Funny thing happens, though; As your aikido begins to get "ki" into your bones - because aikido means "your relationship with god." - you'll find that your level of consciousness will change. And you'll stop getting into situations where there is what you're calling a "fight."

In this "mental state of mind" that you can't seem to find - there is no fight.

In this "mental state of mind" that you can't seem to find - there are no blocks.

In this "mental state of mind" that you can't seem to find - there is no opponent. And if there is a shred of an opponent left - you only have to look in the mirror to find them.

In this "mental state of mind" that you can't seem to find - you have already won.

If you want to actually learn aikido, I'd suggest getting yourself back in the dojo, and train with qualified instructors. Read as much aikido material as you can get your hands on.
http://www.kinokawa.org/aikido/founder.phtml

And, maybe just be respectful, and do to others what you want them to do to you.

You can take the blue pill, pick up a few "tricks," and get back out on the streets and try your luck.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street_fighting

Or you can take the red pill, and really learn the art. and see how deep the rabbiit hole goes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redpill

Hope that helps. : )

Last edited by Dan Richards : 05-31-2009 at 05:59 PM.
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Old 06-01-2009, 05:28 AM   #55
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Is Aikido effective in the real world?

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Ryan Larson wrote: View Post
This post will seem like trolling, or a blatant insult to Aikido people, or what-have-you, but in honesty it isn't. Let me provide some background.

I love the 'idea' of Aikido. I walk past a lovely dojo full of competent instructors (http://aikidoofmadison.com/) a few times every week, and I've wanted to join for a while now, but time and money have been an issue. As many of you know, it takes a long time to progress from level to level in Aikido, even with dedication and regular training, and that's good for a martial art.

I'm facing a dilemma, however, and that dilemma is that it is really hard to have faith in the techniques. In the situations where they are applied, it is obviously effective. Outside of the dojo, it starts to appear much less effective. This is probably something that's been mentioned around here before (in a few forums posts at least).

Many of the renowned Aikido guys do demonstrations, and what I see time and again is that their demo guys attack in unrealistic ways and in multiple vids perform the exact same attacks, often in the same sequence. Some examples:

Christian Tissier: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXG57rOTE8I

More than half the "attacks" in this vid are like silly old spy movie "judo chops". No one ever gets attacked with a judo chop. Ever. No one ever has someone half-run at them with an open palm outstretched. Like Bas Rutten said: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k_uumIQ1uk

Steven Seagal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=herSynqVN3M

I like that Steven Seagal's stuff is usually faster, ergo much more like a real confrontation, but the attacks are still unrealistic and I notice in that almost all of his old demo vids he's demonstrating with the same guys -- guys who know the choreography of the demonstration and who have been with Seagal for at least a couple years.

So in a more realistic situation that isn't merely a demo, how does pure aikido stack up?

Here an MMA fighter doesn't do much to take the aikido master out of the fight:
http://fr.truveo.com/Aikido-vs-MMA/id/3792273418

Here's what I often see in "aikido vs whatever". The aikido guy begins with aikido moves, but then falls into kicks and punches like the taekwondo/karate/muai thai guy. (This happened a teeny bit in the previous vid) In this one, the half-arm man wins, but aikido is only part of it -- and his oppenent isn't all that good.
Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLqovX4G8Z0
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwt9_G6VcME

Now, people might point to some MMA guy like Royce Gracie ( http://fr.truveo.com/aikido-vs-free-fight/id/3332018667 ) and say, "Ah-ha! Aikido guy!" But, he's not really using anything you regularly see in a dojo. If anything, most of what he does is the same stuff wrestlers do, plus punches.

There are many demonstration vids showing how aikido is effective against kickboxing/karate/etc. but the only time it appears to have an advantage is in demonstration of how good it is, not real combat. This match is the exception (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLmQ-Tci3bk) but does not appear to be the Aikido taught at my local dojo.

Here's a quote from "callsignfuzzy" from an online conversation (which I wasn't a part of) regarding the effectiveness of Aikido and Hapkido:

"I don't think either are ineffective. In fact, two of the people I respect the most in martial arts have an Aikido background. Of course they both cross-train, have hazardous jobs (bouncer and troubled-teen manager), and both look at "flower-child" aikidoka as being unrealistic. I think the difference between these folks and a lot of aikidoka is that they have been in real, physical danger and train their technique appropriately. If you look at how the majority of Aikido, Hapkido, and similar systems are trained, you'll notice a lot of unrealistic training. There's a lot of, "grab my wrist and hold on for dear life, no matter what I do" kind of training. Fun fact: adult males are hardly ever subject to wrist grabs. Think about it. When was the last time you saw two guys squaring off in a bar fight, and one of them grabs the other's wrist? I've never seen it happen. I've asked an aikido forum what techniques they found the most useful, and despite the wealth of locks and throws, they only mentioned a handful of techniques."

I know there are techniques to counter kicks or punches, but some have proven to be completely useless in real combat. The rest don't appear to be used very often to any great degree of success. There are different flavors of Aikido, and, yes, some are "harder" and more competitive, but to say one flavor of Aikido would work here and maybe this one would work there kind of dismisses those other kinds of Aikido to wu-shu status, and where does that assessment leave the practitioners of those styles?

Before the dozens of "well why don't you come to our dojo and find out on the mat" comments, all I want is for someone out there to show me more than a couple real examples of where Aikido seriously shows its mettle and merit as an effective defensive art -- because I want to respect it and even participate, given the opportunity, if it's more than hype. I've looked all over (notice the diversity of websites I've posted here), yet can't find anything showing Aikido lives up to its hype. I thought the Aikido community would be better able to provide some evidence if it exists. Also, as a side note and provided there's some evidence of Aikido's effectiveness as a martial art, how does the community feel about the style taught at my local dojo (http://aikidoofmadison.com/) ?

Thanks!
Don’t take my answer as a wind up but most of us here have lived long enough to see a complete iteration of that cyclical argument.
No on never attack with <attack of you choice> is utter rubbish. You have been sold that same old cock flavoured lolly pop, that the oldest of us have been sold 20 years ago.
The only difference between you and me is that you have a more modern wrapper than the one I bought

Since the early 80 I have heard buckets loads of people telling me what a real fight is.
That bloody 1v1versus the street for hand to hand is just “the real way to fight with a knife” re-cooked and served with a different sauce.
For some the only way was to prison shank you for the other the only way to use a knife was to use it like a one handed sword.
It is glaringly obvious that you do not have any influence on what the geezer is going to do and hence that you should be able to deal with both.

Now replace prison shank you with rush or ambush and use it like a sword by fighting like any combat sport. You will find that it is equally daft to expect your opponent to square up with you or to ambush you in dark alley with two of his mates, all on meths with an AK47 in one hand and a machete in the other.

10-15 years ago, the fact that 1v1 martial artist where unable to deal with “real life situation” created the SD craze.
The “new approach” that we see now is that we need to compete to make sure we can use our skill when it matters is directly responsible for all the sport version of martial arts, Modern fencing included.

You can spin it anyway you want 1v1 is designed for the combination of the best athlete and technique to prevail. So the starting situation is equal for each fighter, can not be manipulated, and both fighter are aware of each other and that they will fight.
Yes you will have fighter that will try to rush you and or pressure fight you but equally you have strategy and tactic you can use against then.
All that because you are aware of your opponent and his intentions, as well the distance and the position you fight from is designed to give you that latitude.
In other words, you do not have any other option but establish dominant position after the actual fight started.
Amazingly, combat sports are the best practice for that type of situation

On the other hand you have the warrior class of old or modern thug approach which is advocated that you really need to manipulate the environment to achieve dominant position before you start fighting.
That usually includes weapons, surprise, deception and numbers.

There is no denying that some aikido schools are more turned toward the spiritual development and that the training methods of aikido are not really up to date, but some other are quite adapted to that deal with the later type of attacker.

Phil

Last edited by philippe willaume : 06-01-2009 at 05:36 AM.

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 06-01-2009, 06:14 AM   #56
philippe willaume
 
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Re: does Aikido work in the street?

Quote:
Ruairidh Percival wrote: View Post
the thing is i cant seem to get into the mental state of mind to use aikido in a fightim only a yelow belt but i can block things i just cant remember to use it when a punch is coming.

can you help me?
Hello
From what I read you seem to be bothered about being hit.
You can be decked by one kick, elbow knee or punch if it land at the right place and you have not seen it coming but by far it does not happen on every punches.
I think you just need to get use to punching and get punched.

Take up boxing/MT/KB on top of aikido, or do boxing exercise with a friend.
You can use good old Mendoza with a heavy bag and head gear.
It is quite old but will serve the purpose. (http://www.sirwilliamhope.org/Library/Mendoza)
Phil

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 06-01-2009, 07:51 AM   #57
lbb
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Re: does Aikido work in the street?

Quote:
Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
I think you just need to get use to punching and get punched.
Or maybe reconsider the need to constantly be in fights.
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Old 06-01-2009, 09:01 AM   #58
philippe willaume
 
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Re: does Aikido work in the street?

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Or maybe reconsider the need to constantly be in fights.
well it is not because I read the kama sutra that I plan to be a gigolo.

phil

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 06-01-2009, 03:36 PM   #59
DonMagee
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Re: Is Aikido effective in the real world?

Quote:
Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
Don't take my answer as a wind up but most of us here have lived long enough to see a complete iteration of that cyclical argument.
No on never attack with <attack of you choice> is utter rubbish. You have been sold that same old cock flavoured lolly pop, that the oldest of us have been sold 20 years ago.
The only difference between you and me is that you have a more modern wrapper than the one I bought

Since the early 80 I have heard buckets loads of people telling me what a real fight is.
That bloody 1v1versus the street for hand to hand is just "the real way to fight with a knife" re-cooked and served with a different sauce.
For some the only way was to prison shank you for the other the only way to use a knife was to use it like a one handed sword.
It is glaringly obvious that you do not have any influence on what the geezer is going to do and hence that you should be able to deal with both.

Now replace prison shank you with rush or ambush and use it like a sword by fighting like any combat sport. You will find that it is equally daft to expect your opponent to square up with you or to ambush you in dark alley with two of his mates, all on meths with an AK47 in one hand and a machete in the other.

10-15 years ago, the fact that 1v1 martial artist where unable to deal with "real life situation" created the SD craze.
The "new approach" that we see now is that we need to compete to make sure we can use our skill when it matters is directly responsible for all the sport version of martial arts, Modern fencing included.

You can spin it anyway you want 1v1 is designed for the combination of the best athlete and technique to prevail. So the starting situation is equal for each fighter, can not be manipulated, and both fighter are aware of each other and that they will fight.
Yes you will have fighter that will try to rush you and or pressure fight you but equally you have strategy and tactic you can use against then.
All that because you are aware of your opponent and his intentions, as well the distance and the position you fight from is designed to give you that latitude.
In other words, you do not have any other option but establish dominant position after the actual fight started.
Amazingly, combat sports are the best practice for that type of situation

On the other hand you have the warrior class of old or modern thug approach which is advocated that you really need to manipulate the environment to achieve dominant position before you start fighting.
That usually includes weapons, surprise, deception and numbers.

There is no denying that some aikido schools are more turned toward the spiritual development and that the training methods of aikido are not really up to date, but some other are quite adapted to that deal with the later type of attacker.

Phil
Honestly, the more I train the simpler self defense gets. My current take is that people who develop the work ethic of high school wrestlers, boxers, Olympic lifting, or any other kind of explosive energy training are probably better suited to win fights then the majority of bjj players, aikido players, or karate masters.

I see guys come into the gym with a few years of competitive judo or wrestling and they are just amazing. The same with soldiers straight out of the service. Sure they don't have the hand to hand skills and if you weather the storm you will win with superior technique. But fights in a self defense context don't require skill or technique and rarely have either. It's pure heart in my opinion. Most of us simply do not have it.

Watching this season of TUF made me think about that. One of the fighters loses at least 4 of his teeth. A few days later he is asked if he will take another fight. He tells them "Sure, it's just teeth.". I had a tooth pulled once. I was hold up for 2 days in bed in horrible pain. A punch in my face would of dropped me in a pool of tears. This guy has heart I can never have. I'd bet on him in a life or death situation then most black belts I know or even myself. I can never be that guy.

So the question becomes, can you train heart?

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 06-01-2009, 03:45 PM   #60
Ron Tisdale
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

What's more, his opponent was an easy favorite. But his opponent didn't have enough heart to come out for the final round. He probably could have won the fight in that 3rd round. But he couldn't get off his @$$ long enough to do it.

And yes, I do believe you can train it, if the person has the right motivation. But it ain't easy.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 06-01-2009, 04:34 PM   #61
Ketsan
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Re: Is Aikido effective in the real world?

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Don Magee wrote: View Post

So the question becomes, can you train heart?
Yes, if you have the right experiences you will develop heart. I don't think it's easy though. I'm not sure that it's for everyone either. Most people are in martial arts to learn to beat someone else up, not learn how to take a beating.

Can you imagine saying to a prospective student "Well the first part of the training involves getting hit until you get used to it, then we'll teach you how not to get hit?"
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Old 06-01-2009, 08:39 PM   #62
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

It is important to get hit and learn to weather the storm. There is nothing like being overwhelmed by an opponent and curling into the fetal position to show you what you lack.

Sorry, but if you are serious about self defense and working on actual fighting skills, then this is something that you must do.

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Old 06-02-2009, 03:45 AM   #63
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Is Aikido effective in the real world?

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Honestly, the more I train the simpler self defense gets. My current take is that people who develop the work ethic of high school wrestlers, boxers, Olympic lifting, or any other kind of explosive energy training are probably better suited to win fights then the majority of bjj players, aikido players, or karate masters.

I see guys come into the gym with a few years of competitive judo or wrestling and they are just amazing. The same with soldiers straight out of the service. Sure they don't have the hand to hand skills and if you weather the storm you will win with superior technique. But fights in a self defense context don't require skill or technique and rarely have either. It's pure heart in my opinion. Most of us simply do not have it.

Watching this season of TUF made me think about that. One of the fighters loses at least 4 of his teeth. A few days later he is asked if he will take another fight. He tells them "Sure, it's just teeth.". I had a tooth pulled once. I was hold up for 2 days in bed in horrible pain. A punch in my face would of dropped me in a pool of tears. This guy has heart I can never have. I'd bet on him in a life or death situation then most black belts I know or even myself. I can never be that guy.

So the question becomes, can you train heart?
Hello ron

Would not you say that one purpose of training is to give you heart. For me that is all the point of aliveness and resistance training.

If I ask you to jump a 2.00 m wall on a horse and you never ridden before, you will be scared and rightly so, after a few years of training it will be just a jump. as you said the more you train the simpler it gets.

There is no denying that 1v1 professional fighter are great athlete, just as it is obvious that whatever the competitive combat sport you are doing, it is the sum of the best particle for the activity and the rule set.
And that athleticism and the competition put you in good stead in SD.
However it is important to realise and understand the implication of that there is a different set of rule between SD and competitive fighting.

To be honest in Europe and in northern America, you average "civilian" SD customer is not, in all likeliness, going to be very skilled. So it is quite easy to build a an advantage in the skill set and competitive fighting definitely puts you there.

That being said training in jousting is not going to make me good in cattle roping, like 1v1 and SD there is a vast amount of transferable skills however what makes you a good jouster or cattle handler is not so much the skill set, it is your ability to recognise a situation and rea-act to it and you can only get that from training specifically for jousting and training specifically in cattle roping.

As kev mentioned, body conditioning should really be an important part of SD.

Phil

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 06-02-2009, 09:12 AM   #64
DonMagee
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Re: Is Aikido effective in the real world?

Quote:
Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
Hello ron

Would not you say that one purpose of training is to give you heart. For me that is all the point of aliveness and resistance training.

If I ask you to jump a 2.00 m wall on a horse and you never ridden before, you will be scared and rightly so, after a few years of training it will be just a jump. as you said the more you train the simpler it gets.

There is no denying that 1v1 professional fighter are great athlete, just as it is obvious that whatever the competitive combat sport you are doing, it is the sum of the best particle for the activity and the rule set.
And that athleticism and the competition put you in good stead in SD.
However it is important to realise and understand the implication of that there is a different set of rule between SD and competitive fighting.

To be honest in Europe and in northern America, you average "civilian" SD customer is not, in all likeliness, going to be very skilled. So it is quite easy to build a an advantage in the skill set and competitive fighting definitely puts you there.

That being said training in jousting is not going to make me good in cattle roping, like 1v1 and SD there is a vast amount of transferable skills however what makes you a good jouster or cattle handler is not so much the skill set, it is your ability to recognise a situation and rea-act to it and you can only get that from training specifically for jousting and training specifically in cattle roping.

As kev mentioned, body conditioning should really be an important part of SD.

Phil
I understand that you can get a little tougher from training. My judo/bjj training has probably doubled my pain tolerance. But I don't consider that heart. I think heart is way above that. Yes, if you want to give me some bruises, bloody up my nose, crossface my lips to a mess, break some fingers or toes I'm fine with that. It comes with the sport. I've had and pushed though the sports injuries, the injured shoulders, the twisted fingers, broken ribs, etc. I just don't think anything I've learned in any martial art be it bjj, aikido, tkd, krav maga, judo, mauy thai, etc has taught me how to deal with a real injury. Losing teeth for example, or an eye, or breaking an arm.

I've only had one life changing injury in martial arts. That was when I broke my ankle in judo. I didn't have the heart to even try to keep fighting that match. I instead hit the ground, curled up and screamed like a little girl until the pain subsided. Not really a useful talent.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 06-02-2009, 11:02 AM   #65
Ron Tisdale
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

Hey Don, but there was a time when some of those other injuries might have stopped you. So really, you have trained your heart to deal with that level of injury and pain.

Now, you could let me take a bokken to your ankle to see if you can keep fighting afterward....and then we'll know...

But I think I'd better have something more than a bokken handy...just in case your heart has grown... That, or a REALLY good pair of track shoes...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 06-02-2009, 09:38 PM   #66
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

Having heart means having the desire and drive to WANT to stay on the mat....that is, NOT making excuses for staying off the mat.

IMO, it is possible to have injuries that keep you off the mat, but the desire can still be in your heart to be on the mat.

Usually if you have heart you find a way to stay on the mat no matter what, but sometimes you just have to stop.

As one of my Ranger Instructors used to say "Ranger, it is important to know the difference between Hooah and Stupid!".

I have lived by this motto for many years!

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Old 06-03-2009, 12:47 AM   #67
franklaubach
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

How effective is aikido in self defense?

one time i saw this club bouncer break the arm (kote gaeshi) of a drunk who took a swing at him. the bouncer has aikido background.

way back in school some dudes were fooling around till it got heated up pushin,yelling. the mma guy dove at the aikido guy- down, mounted him and beat him up.

there are some on youtube, but can't figure if they're for real.
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Old 06-03-2009, 01:18 AM   #68
Abasan
Dojo: Aiki Shoshinkan, Aiki Kenkyukai
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

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Frank Laubach wrote: View Post
How effective is aikido in self defense?

one time i saw this club bouncer break the arm (kote gaeshi) of a drunk who took a swing at him. the bouncer has aikido background.

way back in school some dudes were fooling around till it got heated up pushin,yelling. the mma guy dove at the aikido guy- down, mounted him and beat him up.

there are some on youtube, but can't figure if they're for real.
So the answer is, its only as effective as you are.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 06-03-2009, 03:04 PM   #69
pilgrim3970
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

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Tom Hill wrote: View Post
as you know im new to aikido. as a martial art im lookin for it not for competitions or to show of just purely self defense as the youths generation is gettin filled with killing and crime and im 16 and want to protect myself . how effective is aikido in self defense?
This is my first post and there is much I could say about this so I'll try to keep it brief.

Because my family moved around through my childhood and all the way up into my teens (including the last year I was in school) I was always the new guy. This meant that I was able to provide the local bullies with a diversion from the boredom of beating up the usual people.

So I talked my parents into letting me take Goju Ryu Karate lessons. As an adult I would eventually go on to study Kempo, Jujutsu, Aikido, Wing Chun Kung Fu, as well as various seminars on different systems.

However along the way to learning how to fight, I discovered I did not have to. This is because I had gained the self-esteem and confidence to avoid confrontation altogether.

In Aikido, dealing with an attack happens before the first punch is thrown. It means being aware of your surroundings - if you know there is a situation where violence is likely to occur, avoid it. If it does flair up don't let fear and pride keep you from being humble enough to walk away.

But sometimes you will not be unable to walk away because the other person is determined to do you harm. In that case Aikido can be effective - provided your training deals with things in a realistic manner. I have faced only one actual surprise attack from a mugger in a dark parking lot and Aikido served me well.

In case you are wondering what cool techniques I used, it was tenkan. The guy walked up behind me as I was walking between two cars, I spun around to face him (caught his movement out of the corer of my eye as I was turning towards my car.) and it startled him enough that he flinched and dropped the pipe in his hand. I guess he didn't know what else to do from there so he took off running. That was the best Aikido I've ever done.

My $.02.
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Old 06-03-2009, 03:54 PM   #70
Ron Tisdale
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?



Nice example. Glad he dropped the pipe (although over head pipe attacks are made for aikido).

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 06-03-2009, 06:14 PM   #71
scandibilly
 
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

Re: Everyone who responded to my lengthy post on page 2 of this forum.

I think the majority opinion from the forum is that there are no "realistic" training scenarios, and that's true, but some are better training for the real thing than others. Doing CPR on a dummy in your EMT class may not be the real thing, but it's better training than doing it on a pillow or pretending you're doing it on a person.

From what I wrote, there was this response by Alex Lawrence:
Quote:
There are no techniques. There are no "realistic" attacks. You get attacked how you get attacked. That's why the attacks in Aikido are how they are. You can't say "That's not a realistic attack" half way though a fight, you have to deal with what you're given.

That being the case, keeping the attacks you train from generic makes more sense than training against a narrow range of highly specialised attacks that are deemed to be "realistic" even if it's statisically unlikely to come across someone trained enough to make them common attacks.
Still, repeatedly training for the off-balance, half-speed open hand "judo chop" at your chest or shoulder seems a little less than generic -- besides, following the Aikido philosophy anyone actually attacking you like that probably shouldn't be met with a throwing technique because they obviously don't pose much of a threat. That being said, many people suggest that Aikido serves as good cross-training for the martial arts. Also, I think Philippe Willaume interpreted my original post too narrowly, and to his comments on realism in training I refer again to the CPR/EMT metaphor. I wasn't asking for absolutist evidence, rather suggestive evidence other than anecdotes. This sort of evidence is readily found for martial arts such as muay thai, some styles of karate, tae kwon do, and krav manga, and among some mixed martial arts geared specifically for "street" situations. Notice I said "some" and "some styles".

So, what does the forum think of the "Cross Training in the Martial Arts" series, such as "The Anatomy of Combat" and "The Anatomy of Hand Strikes"? The insight of the karate guy from "Hand Strikes" is very interesting, as he comments on the differences between effective origins and contemporary form training. From an Aikido perspective, what are your interpretations and thoughts?

(If you haven't seen them, they are available via a torrent tracker such as Demonoid or Isohunt, and may be found on FilesTube.)

Thanks!
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Old 06-03-2009, 06:54 PM   #72
Janet Rosen
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

Awareness, plus knowing how to look simultaneously inoffensive and unafraid, are invaluable skills. I learned them as a teenager in NY decades before I ever bowed into the dojo. Steven B (welcome!)'s post reminded me of an incident in SF Mission district 32 or 33 yrs ago when I was walking home late alone one night and didn't like the looks of a fellow who was angling his walking path towards mine in an interception pattern. Without thinking I stepped down the curb between two cars and as his path came level with me, but now about 8 or 10 feet to the side, I simply raised my hands to shoulder level. His eyes widened, he sidled sideways away and picked up his pace to keep going.
Then there was the guy I scared the heck out of in the NY subway :-)
The nice thing now with aikido is I feel like I have something to back up my basic good instincts "just in case."

Janet Rosen
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Old 06-03-2009, 07:49 PM   #73
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

Actually the good street sense that Janet discusses has come in handy for me more than anything else.

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Old 06-04-2009, 01:29 AM   #74
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

For the life of me, I can't figure out what the people who are constantly worried about being physically attacked are doing to put themselves in such situations. I live in a densely-populated suburban/urban area (Los Angeles), I regularly go out into public where there are tens of thousands of people around me, and I even occasionally go to events/places where people are consuming copious quantities of alcohol. With all of that, I have felt my physical safety threatened by others maybe a half-dozen times at the most, and I believe that the martial awareness I've developed has enabled me to make intelligent decisions that have avoided physical confrontations completely.

For me, the greatest self-defense aspect of martial arts has been this awareness and confidence. Master those, and (knock on wood) the rest seems to take care of itself.
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Old 06-04-2009, 02:07 PM   #75
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Re: How effective is aikido in self defense?

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Aaron Finney wrote: View Post
For the life of me, I can't figure out what the people who are constantly worried about being physically attacked are doing to put themselves in such situations.
...For me, the greatest self-defense aspect of martial arts has been this awareness and confidence. Master those, and (knock on wood) the rest seems to take care of itself.
I agree simply being aware of your surroundings is the first step toward self-defense and I wonder how much of those who express these fears of being attacked are from people have any experience being attacked or living in dangerous areas. The greatest thing to fear is fear itself. A lot of it is simply common sense stuff...but then again as Mark Twain said, "common sense, ain't." I've only been in a handful of situations where I felt like I was being sized up and a certain kind of confidence, what I think of as a very self-posessed personality, kept me safe...or so it seems to me. It's been said a million times, but most criminals will choose an easier target over a tougher one just as they'll hone in on an attractive target over a bland one (think "bling").
That all said, sometimes a person must remain in a dangerous area for a variety of reasons. Like Don, I live in an area that has a high meth rate, the dirtiest meth at that. When you grow up in an area it can be hard to simply cut ties. Apart from other logistical reasons, I'd rather remain a positive presence in some of my friends' lives than abandon them completely. As such, when I go to visit them, I'm in a heightened state of awareness because visiting them means putting myself a little closer to harms way...it ups the odds.
Obviously I'm just one case, but I can see plenty of reasons why someone might have just cause for being concerned over possible attack, for what it's worth.
Take care,
Matt

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