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Old 06-06-2007, 03:28 AM   #26
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Never use this technique!!

Well all techniques have their tactical use. (and we need two make the difference between technique, exercise or setup to demonstrate something).

For example Tenchin backward and grabbing the wrist of our opponent (to do whatever) when he tries to moves forward to grab or to strike

Well that completely sucks if our opponent is striking within his own space (or in balance aka with the shoulder about over his hips)

That is a very good thing/if not THE thing to do if the said opponent is overcommitted (or unbalanced i.e. having his shoulder well in front of the hips).

phil

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 06-06-2007, 03:54 AM   #27
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Never use this technique!!

I would see "ki" as a way the ancient had to explain thing they did not have the concept to explain otherwise within their vision of the word.

With todays knowledge we would say that Ki in aikido is very smart utilisation body mechanics coupled with a thorough understanding of force vector and system isolation in Newtonian physics. KI in plant growth is the result of photosynthesis.

Does it really mater, if we explain the unbending arm by saying that:
It is the channelling of universal energy and its release.
or that you are using the much more muscle groups, that tend to stabilise the shoulder and the elbow as well as redirecting the force vertor from 180 angle to the pressure to an angle tending towards 90.

Besides in a Newtonian view of the world "ki" will produce a result in newtons. i.e. it is a Force. And so it can be expressed as Energy/Work anyway.

phil

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 06-06-2007, 08:30 AM   #28
senshincenter
 
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Re: Never use this technique!!

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote: View Post
Do not forget some things are practiced as part of the learninig process and are not meant to stay this way (we actually explain this from the first time - do it this way now, another way later.
I get the idea of "drill" or "exercise." Everyone does, I would think. However, I have never seen someone who has been taught the "exercise" of running around nage NOT also employ its logic in nearly everything else they do. This is because while drills and exercises may assist with our overall training, they themselves are but reflections of our overall understanding of said training.

my opinion,
dmv

David M. Valadez
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Old 06-06-2007, 09:21 AM   #29
Ed Stansfield
 
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Re: Never use this technique!!

Hello again,

Firstly, I entirely agree with this point as a response to the original question:

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
That version you see around for any attack - matters not what technique follows - but the one where your technique expects uke to run around you but for their own reasons.
However...

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
I get the idea of "drill" or "exercise." Everyone does, I would think.
Well, quite. In my experience however, this idea is something that is struggled with by the many rather than the few...

Quote:
However, I have never seen someone who has been taught the "exercise" of running around nage NOT also employ its logic in nearly everything else they do.
What would you say its logic is?
If people generalise from an excercise that involves running, to quote Janet's excellent description:
Quote:
in a big circle around some big person trying to catch up with their wrists
then I would say that this is likely to be because they still struggle with the idea of "drill" or "excercise".

Quote:
David wrote:
This is because while drills and exercises may assist with our overall training, they themselves are but reflections of our overall understanding of said training.
I'm not sure I get this point... To me it seems like a statement that what is reflected from one part of an excercise is actually the whole of someone's understanding. I find this difficult to reconcile with my own experiences on the mat...

Sorry if this is turning into a re-run of the "following" thread.

Best,

Ed

It is a good thing for an uneducated man to read books of quotations.

Winston Churchill, 1930.
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Old 06-06-2007, 09:21 AM   #30
tarik
 
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Re: Never use this technique!!

Quote:
David Valadez wrote: View Post
I get the idea of "drill" or "exercise." Everyone does, I would think. However, I have never seen someone who has been taught the "exercise" of running around nage NOT also employ its logic in nearly everything else they do. This is because while drills and exercises may assist with our overall training, they themselves are but reflections of our overall understanding of said training.
I generally agree, but wouldn't say that training occasionally in this manner yields people who inevitably apply it's logic everywhere.

Chicken or egg? Evolutionarily speaking, the answer to that is easier, of course, but in this case, is it the philosophy or logic of produces that particular exercise or vice versa?

I confess, I spent a lot of time working at 'forcing' my partners (uke) to have to make that kind of movement by attempting to apply kuzushi, and this was a very good exercise, however, it required more work and provided them more feedback than I believe is ideal.

I am less interested in that sort of training today and more interested in figuring out what types of kuzushi I can create in my partner's sincere attacks without the kind of labor that they inevitably are able to feel and potentially respond to in ways that I may not wish.

As to addressing the topic of the thread; I think it's relatively meaningless to answer "what if" questions of this sort.

The best answer has already been offered; I will use whatever technique is appropriate to the circumstances whether it has a name or is invented on the spot.

The circumstances include not only the attack, but my state of mind, my opponents state of mind, the situation that surrounds us, and many other factors. Nothing can be ruled out in a circumstance so vague.

The question is really a fruitless exercise of the sort often offered by newer students who have yet to fully comprehend what and why they are training.

If we are training properly, choice of technique should never enter in the equation if or when it comes time to doing. Techniques are merely tools that allow us to access, understand, and apply principles of movement and interaction between two or more bipeds in a combat situation.

Properly learned and applied principles will lead to the application appropriate technique spontaneously, and in a truly stressful situation, you may have no recollection of what or how things went down, merely that they did.

WARNING: I am about to say something that sounds judgmental. If anyone has a problem with critical analysis of training methods, don't bother reading further, you're likely to get angry, irritated, or perhaps start judging me for being willing to express my opinion. It seems to happen in a lot of interactions online.

I won't ask people who disagree not to post; because I encourage discussion, but I do ask up front that people understand that I apply this same critical analysis to my own training and I am not judging individuals or their value as human beings here, I'm judging the training process.


What I've witnessed in many people's training, including people quite senior whom I respect and admire and enjoy learning from, is an unintentional focusing on the wrong principles while attempting to apply technique.

They have an idea that is philosophically informed and are trying to find ways to make technique happen within that framework, instead of learning the variations that do work, and allowing that to alter their philosophy.

I understand why, as the latter is much more uncomfortable than the former and I've been guilty of it myself.

There is something to be said for entering the art of aikido well informed about many of it's spiritual goals and desiring them for oneself, but there's an enormous danger in believing that one can fully intellectually understand many of the philosophies without having undergone the training, especially in ways that are uncomfortable, push your buttons, and make you seriously question whether the philosophy you believe is accurate.

The paradoxes that are not explored, understood, and internalized will otherwise be thrown away by people who sincerely believe that they understand the art and hence the preponderance of debates in aikido about things like whether atemi is a part of aikido, whether aikido 'works' in real life, and so forth.

Regards,

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
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Old 06-06-2007, 09:54 AM   #31
senshincenter
 
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Re: Never use this technique!!

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
I generally agree, but wouldn't say that training occasionally in this manner yields people who inevitably apply it's logic everywhere.
First, nice post Tarik.

Since it was mentioned a couple of times... Why don't we try to find some youtube video of what I'm referring to, and I'll look to show how the "logic" of what is being done is carried throughout the video - no matter how long. I may come up short, but it will be an interesting exercise. If anyone can find any video, please direct us to it. I'll try and look for some when I get a bit more time to reply later.

thanks,
dmv

David M. Valadez
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Old 06-06-2007, 09:59 AM   #32
MM
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Re: Never use this technique!!

I started a new thread about the running around nage technique. Please view it here:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12712

Thanks,
Mark
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Old 06-06-2007, 10:00 AM   #33
tarik
 
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Re: Never use this technique!!

Quote:
David Valadez wrote: View Post
First, nice post Tarik.

Since it was mentioned a couple of times... Why don't we try to find some youtube video of what I'm referring to, and I'll look to show how the "logic" of what is being done is carried throughout the video - no matter how long. I may come up short, but it will be an interesting exercise. If anyone can find any video, please direct us to it. I'll try and look for some when I get a bit more time to reply later.
Well, let me yield this point to you rather than putting you through the exercise. It's not important enough to me to want to spend time on it specifically.

I do admit that I have eliminated this type of training from my own practice because it does have it's own dangers of the sort you talk about, because I believe there are better ways to learn the same principles and points, and finally because it is frankly not a part of the training in the organization I've joined.

Regards,

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
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Old 06-06-2007, 10:23 AM   #34
senshincenter
 
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Re: Never use this technique!!

Found one - real fast - got lucky:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylrcUJc7MIA

Please don't make this a thread on Endo. This is just an example of the way the logic of our understanding comes to penetrate our drills and thus our other technical applications.

Here, I will refer to one aspect of the running around - noting how it carries forth into other things that have nothing to do with the running around.

When uke runs around, he/she usually is "asked" to fill the space from which kuzushi is to find its geometric source. For example, rather than bringing a wedge to uke's base of support, uke brings his/her base of support to the wedge. As a result, the transportation of nage's wedge becomes something different than when nage is expected to bring the wedge to uke's base of support. That is to say, one's understanding of irimi becomes something different. In particular, the degree of active penetration comes to be something different (i.e. zero to little active penetration), and thus by default, among other things, the hip-to-hip relationship (in terms of space - i.e. how far is nage's lead hip into uke's rear hip - and in terms of movement - i.e. how much rotation is present in one's linear advancement - etc.) becomes something different, as does the utilization of the back foot (since a more grounded back foot is needed for a more active irimi).

If you look in these other video's, you can see how all of these elements are different from what we see in the first video, as you can see that uke is not expected (i.e. moving outside of the logic of their intended attack) to bring his/her base of support to the geometry that will eventually disturb their balance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MIVo68o6Sg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SJ5sHOGZv4

dmv

Last edited by senshincenter : 06-06-2007 at 10:25 AM.

David M. Valadez
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Old 06-06-2007, 10:52 AM   #35
Janet Rosen
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Re: Never use this technique!!

I too understand the purpose of a drill. it is to develop integration of basic movement and principle.
A drill that has a person literally running in a circle around somebody does not match anything that I have ever integrated into my muscle memory in aikido. Its just silly.

Janet Rosen
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Old 06-06-2007, 01:42 PM   #36
Edward
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Re: Never use this technique!!

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
I too understand the purpose of a drill. it is to develop integration of basic movement and principle.
A drill that has a person literally running in a circle around somebody does not match anything that I have ever integrated into my muscle memory in aikido. Its just silly.
I agree completely and this is something I even refuse to do in class. I am willing to do just half a circle around someone, after which I switch to a different attack.

However I believe the real reason behind this exercice is to develop the sense of synchronization between Uke and Nage, but it does feel like someone leading a donkey with a carrot.
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Old 06-09-2007, 09:39 PM   #37
James Stedman
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Re: Never use this technique!!

Most life and death confrontations occur suddenly and without warning.Those who have trained mind and body to act as one will discover that any response is legitimate and it will come without conscious deliberation or choice.The ability to react spontaneuosly and achieve a good outcome is the fruit of years of countless repetition and diligent study of the arts.

"I run to attack, I run to defend!"
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Old 05-30-2009, 06:31 PM   #38
softocean
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Re: Never use this technique!!

I was just thinking that when I practice with people in other martial arts, I trim down my aikido techniques repetoire to just 4-5.
Ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo, kote gaeshi. irimi

I feel that I'm not skilled enough with shiho nage, or yonkyo to execute them effectively.
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Old 05-30-2009, 06:33 PM   #39
Dan Richards
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Re: Never use this technique!!

The technique I would recommend that you never use in a real fight is known as "being there."
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Old 05-30-2009, 06:45 PM   #40
Nick
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Re: Never use this technique!!

Quote:
James Stedman wrote: View Post
Most life and death confrontations occur suddenly and without warning.Those who have trained mind and body to act as one will discover that any response is legitimate and it will come without conscious deliberation or choice.The ability to react spontaneously and achieve a good outcome is the fruit of years of countless repetition and diligent study of the arts.

"I run to attack, I run to defend!"
^^^^ That.

Nick

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Nick Porter
"Do not fall into the trap of the artisan who boasts twenty years of experience, when in fact he has had only one year of experience-- twenty times."
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