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Old 05-29-2009, 09:09 AM   #1376
dps
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Re: A popular discussion

You can either live in reality or hide behind philosophy.

David
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Old 05-29-2009, 09:11 AM   #1377
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Re: A popular discussion

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
So one nine-year-long unresolvable bag of electronic hot air wasn't enough, we need two of them.

Feh.
ROTFL!!! This was worth reading the thread. Nicely put, Mary.
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Old 05-29-2009, 09:18 AM   #1378
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: A popular discussion

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
You can either live in reality or hide behind philosophy.

David
But you could do it the other way round: live in philosophy and hide behind reality: Plato, Kant, Wittgenstein?

Best wishes,

PAG

P A Goldsbury
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Old 05-29-2009, 09:28 AM   #1379
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Re: A popular discussion

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
But you could do it the other way round: live in philosophy and hide behind reality: Plato, Kant, Wittgenstein?

Best wishes,

PAG
So if you rekant that statement, does that mean you'll live in reality?
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Old 05-29-2009, 09:41 AM   #1380
dps
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Re: A popular discussion

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
But you could do it the other way round: live in philosophy and hide behind reality: Plato, Kant, Wittgenstein?

Best wishes,

PAG
It is better to live in reality and tune your philosophy to your experiences then to live in philosophy ignored by reality.

David
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Old 05-29-2009, 09:56 AM   #1381
C. David Henderson
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Re: A popular discussion

Eugene,

Nice post. Very respectful. I agree with a lot of what you said too.

Thanks.
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Old 05-29-2009, 10:08 AM   #1382
Marc Abrams
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Re: A popular discussion

Eugene:

Nice Post!

It is not the Martial Art, Fighting Style,......, but people who seem to be caught up in Ago Waza (Flapping too much from the jaw!) based upon some personal sense of insecurities. I would not assign blame to what people are studying. I always go back to what one of my old sempai use to say when the jaws would flap -> JUST PRACTICE!

Marc Abrams
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Old 05-29-2009, 10:09 AM   #1383
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: A popular discussion

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
So if you rekant that statement, does that mean you'll live in reality?
If you reduce the discussion to this level, then I am finished with this discussion.

PAG

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Old 05-29-2009, 11:09 AM   #1384
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Re: A popular discussion

Quote:
Eugene Roe wrote: View Post
For all of MMA's faults, at least its practitioners have the spine to except challenges and engage them the best way they know how. If aikidokas are not going to act on this, then it is my humble opinion they should cease to speak of it as well. [...] Wouldn't silence on this subject be more fitting for aikido's philosophy?
Now that you've issued the challenge, why do you not accept it?

Masakatsu Agatsu.

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Old 05-29-2009, 03:31 PM   #1385
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Re: A popular discussion

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
If you reduce the discussion to this level, then I am finished with this discussion.

PAG
Apologies, Peter. I was being a bit light hearted. Please, feel free to continue the discussion. Your input is always worth reading. I'll definitely refrain from joking.

Thank you,
Mark
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Old 05-30-2009, 07:48 AM   #1386
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Thank you so much to those of you who offered such a warm welcome and understood what I was trying to say, I really appreciate it. To those with not such a warm welcome, here is my retort. To Mary’s rude comment on me starting another as she calls it, “electronic bag of hot air,” I would just like to say congratulations. Now that you’ve contributed to that bag of hot air, you’re just as bad as the rest of us. So you can now stop acting like you’re better than me. To Joe, I’m not issuing a challenge rather than simply making a suggestion. I’m a Marine and a military historian. After all battles and wars there is a treaty. Think of this as The Treaty of Nonsense. I would also like to say this is not the same subject as the form started by Joeysola nine years ago and furthermore I am quite upset the moderators merged my thread with this one. They obviously did not read it or did not understand what I was trying to say. I am not here to debate the effectiveness of Aikido, because I just don’t care. What I absolutely can’t stand are people who say they can do something and then make lame excuses as to why they never did. I could have gotten into Harvard if I didn’t party so much my senior year. I wouldn’t have gotten into the NFL if I had a better sports agent. I could beat Oscar de la Hoya in a street fight if I wasn’t such a pacifist. They’re all the same. There’s an old saying, “When you’re good at making excuses, you usually aren’t good at much else.” I believe it is time to put up or shut up.

I’m an American and the last thing in the world I want to do is take away anyone’s first amendment rights. However, if you absolutely need to state what you can do, then perhaps it is equally important to go ahead and prove that statement with action. If it is not important enough for you to do, then perhaps too, it is not worth wasting your words on. Not to sound cliché, but actions speak louder than words. Be men of action, not words. All the resources are there for you to test your hypothesis. Think of it as a scientific experiment. If you test and document the effectiveness of your skills, I guarantee it would be extremely profitable. An aikidoka defeating Anderson Silva would be the biggest pay-per-view draw in history. Instructors would reap the benefits as well since Aikido’s popularity would explode. You can’t say benefiting monetarily would be exploiting your art either. After all, Steven Seagal made a career out of making some of the most awful films in cinema history which all featured aikido, and he is still accepted by the east.

Last edited by hotdogwater : 05-30-2009 at 07:49 AM. Reason: paragraphs weren't spaced
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Old 05-30-2009, 08:58 AM   #1387
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Do symbol Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

"If ya came ta peck a fight, yar talkin' to the chap that'll oblige ya."
---BrownTom from: Legend

Maybe, you should watch MORE TV? Maybe, you should come to Texas? Its a fun place, ...beautiful women and great food. You can stay at my house. We will train together. I'll get you ready for your fight!!! You won't win. No, because I study Aikido and I know how to grapple. I study Aikido and I know how to strike. I study Aikido and I know how to put you to sleep and have more wonderful dreams of Brazilian Jew Jetset. Nice dreams! Mmmmmm, Come see your friend that studies Aikido. He will enlighten you, uh...spiritually.

Send me an email and we'll arrange it, just for you.
Namaste, go with God, Shalome, ,,,and all the other spiritual stuff
Bye.


Bruno
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Old 05-30-2009, 10:20 AM   #1388
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Do symbol A JOKE: How may Aikidoka does it take to change a Moron?

WOW,
I'm amazed! I became a member of this forum because I thought I would find some enlightened discussion on Aikido. Hmm

All I have to do to get everyone involved with my plan is to just post a thread about "Aikido is crap in the Real World!" Then I can reead 56 pages of "Gotcha, I won". You guys are easy! Suckers!

In "Real Life" I avoid the things that aren't a threat and deal with the real issues. Life's too short to dance with morons.


brUNO
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Old 05-30-2009, 10:24 AM   #1389
dps
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Re: A JOKE: How may Aikidoka does it take to change a Moron?

Well that depends, how do you tell if someone is a moron?

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16254

David
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Old 05-30-2009, 10:44 AM   #1390
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Re: A JOKE: How may Aikidoka does it take to change a Moron?

I use the "Moron Test"

Don't worry, You passed.

Bruno
"A warrior is not about perfection or victory or invulnerability. He's about absolute vulnerability."
- Socrates
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Old 05-30-2009, 10:46 AM   #1391
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Eugene,

There are many of us out here that have an understanding of various martial training methodologies and have an appreciation for aikido training methods and what they can and cannot do with respect to martial training.

Aikido has a place in my training regime as a soldier and as a "MMAer".

I train with many guys that would get their asses handed to them by lesser men than Anderson Sylva. That fact, however, IMO does not necessarily invalidate what they have to offer.

WIthin it's context, and I do believe that this is really the crux of what you are saying, AIkido has it's place.

That said, I wholeheartedly agree with you that the whiners and wannabees out the that base their whole relevance and sense of self worth on if "aikido would work in the ring". Or "the ring isn't reality, so we can't be effective" should "put up or shut up" (for lack of a better phrase right now.) Harsh, but that is the reality.

It all eventually comes back to, "shut up and train".

Me personally, I have gotten on the mat with some "b" level MMAers that have lost to the big names in the UFC. I certainly could not even hold a candle to those guys skill wise, so I hold no pretense to my ability to do well, and have been constantly reminded that there are many, many levels of "good" and "proficient". And I am at the very bottom of that. bell curve.

It is easy to become fooled and delusioned about what we think we really know and what we can really do in a dojo where we train with the same folks over and over again.

Breaking out of our paradigm and moving to others sometimes shows us a new perspective on reality!

Anyway, I overall agree with your observations and wanted you to know that many of us out here in aiki-land understand the place and context aikido has in the world of martial training (budo).

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Old 05-30-2009, 12:16 PM   #1392
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Re: A JOKE: How may Aikidoka does it take to change a Moron?

So one useless thread begets another?

It seems to me that if you're going to ignore an issue, the best thing to do is... ignore it?

Nick

---
Nick Porter
"Do not fall into the trap of the artisan who boasts twenty years of experience, when in fact he has had only one year of experience-- twenty times."
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Old 05-30-2009, 02:08 PM   #1393
Mark Uttech
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Re: A JOKE: How may Aikidoka does it take to change a Moron?

Onegaishimasu. A useless thread for sure.

In gassho,

Mark

- Right combination works wonders -
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Old 05-30-2009, 02:24 PM   #1394
Dan Rubin
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Re: A JOKE: How may Aikidoka does it take to change a Moron?

My "ignore" list just increased by one.
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Old 05-30-2009, 02:49 PM   #1395
Dan Richards
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Re: A JOKE: How may Aikidoka does it take to change a Moron?

Do we somehow feel a need to see "morons" outside of ourselves?

What is a moron, anyway?
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Old 05-30-2009, 04:11 PM   #1396
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Re: A JOKE: How may Aikidoka does it take to change a Moron?

Somebody pooped in Brent's cornflakes.
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Old 05-30-2009, 05:42 PM   #1397
erikmenzel
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Re: A JOKE: How may Aikidoka does it take to change a Moron?

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote: View Post
Somebody pooped in Brent's cornflakes.
Sorry, wont do it again.

Erik Jurrien Menzel
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Old 05-30-2009, 06:29 PM   #1398
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Re: A popular discussion

Quote:
Eugene Roe wrote: View Post
During my research I noticed something that still bothers me to this day which is also the reason for this post. It is the argument between mixed martial artists and aikidokas on the effectiveness of aikido. I am posting on this forum in regards to this subject because I feel my audience here conducts itself with excellent class and civility.
Well I appreciate your decision to share your thinking, despite your distaste for chat forums. The internet has the "wonderful" trait of allowing people a relatively anonymous way of expressing things they would never dare express in person. Indeed I view the internet as a great window to the "real" nature of people for this reason...it's also one of the greatest contributors of my ongoing battle with misanthrope (don't worry, I'm winning!) for that same reason.

Quote:
Not only is aikido effective, they seem to think they can defeat any boxer, kick boxer, mixed martial artist, so on and so forth.
How old do you suppose those folks are? My impression is that they're generally kids, but I realize much of that is presumption. Also, I wonder how many of those folks saying they can beat anyone are saying they will always beat them. I think I can beat anyone at anything, given enough tries.
Part of the problem, in my opinion, is the salesmanship that tends to come with running a buisiness: sell the positives; the negatives will sort themselves out (a huge pet-peeve for me). I also think most people study a martial art for a relatively short amount of time which lends to a short-sighted set of opinions and that when they're learning a Martial Art they tend to assume it's both comprehensive and effective. I don't view this as an Aikido (or other group) problem as much as it's a human problem. People generally accept what they're presented so if no counter-point is experienced, they're happily ignorant.

Quote:
What do upset me are the statements of superiority coming from aikidokas, and again not necessarily from the ones on this site, but from you know where.
I'm not criticizing you here, but the first question that comes to my mind is, "why does it bother you?" As a long-time (relatively speaking) idealist and a pacifist I've receieved more than a small amount of criticism from people telling me I'm ignorant and delusional. I have no problem with people claiming to be superior to me. I say let 'em feel superior and engage them in thoughtful debate. They'll either join the process of articulating the virtues of the issue(s) or they'll resort to meaningless quips in which case to my mind they've lost the interaction and I pretty much cease to care about what they think. Now, of course that's just my way and not necessarily for others, but it does save me a lot of consternation and so I'm offering it as food for thought, for whatever it's worth to you (for all I know you already agree and your use of "upset" is more rhetorical). I am passionate about interpersonal development so I do actually care a lot about what people think (being that it drives their actions), but past a certain point I simply have to stop worrying about it or my head will explode.

Quote:
These statements would not infuriate so much if the people making them wouldn't cop out every time behind the excuse that their philosophy does not condone violence and that their art is to only to be used for defense.
It is decidedly convenient, I agree, but to my mind the issue isn't so much about the valid excuse that their art generally says not to compete with others, but is rather that they're making generalizations about large groups of people. The real issue here, as I see it, is how one approaches correcting delusion and that is not an easy fix, regardless of the setting.

Quote:
I started training in competitive martial arts a couple of years before the UFC's popularity exploded. It was such a nicer time. People were doing it just as a hobby or a sport or a really good workout. Then that intellectually devoid show The Ultimate Fighter premiered and all the wannabe tough guys had to start doing it just because it was the thing to do. As much as I like mixed martial arts, it spawned a really crappy sub culture.
We certainly all have our baggage; there's a trade-off to everything...what can we do but our best to be transparent and honest with each other and hope that in time meaningful understanding takes place?

Quote:
But if aikido does not condone violence, one thing it certainly is liberated on is the running of one's mouth. I find it in poor taste and even poorer class those who make statements as to who they could defeat in hand to hand combat without having the decency or the courage to prove those statements with action. For all of MMA's faults, at least its practitioners have the spine to except challenges and engage them the best way they know how.
In my experience, I hear more people saying how ineffective Aikido is than Aikidoists saying how much more effective their art is. Also, my personal view is that I'd rather deal with loud-mouths than tough-guys. I don't like aggressive people...they piss me off. Is my view less valid than yours (I'm assuming your "at least its practicioners have the spine..." comment puts forth the opposite view)?

Quote:
Wouldn't silence on this subject be more fitting for aikido's philosophy? I do not claim to be an expert on that philosophy or even well versed on it for that matter. It is simply my observation that these would be the values which O'Sensei was trying to instill within his students and their descendants.
Apparently no...and I say that because I've been corrected here on Aikiweb that engagement is a central tenet to Aikido methodology where I've suggested simply ducking out of potential conflict might be more Aikido-like. It shouldn't be a competition when offering a disagreement, but the disagreement should be offered in an attempt at finding concordance.
At any rate, thanks for the food for thought; I hope I've replied with something equally tasty.
Take care,
Matthew

Last edited by mathewjgano : 05-30-2009 at 06:36 PM.

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Old 05-30-2009, 06:40 PM   #1399
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Re: A JOKE: How may Aikidoka does it take to change a Moron?

LOL! useless my ass! I've been entertained!

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 05-30-2009, 06:54 PM   #1400
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Re: A JOKE: How may Aikidoka does it take to change a Moron?

Quote:
Brent Smith wrote: View Post
WOW,
I'm amazed! I became a member of this forum because I thought I would find some enlightened discussion on Aikido. Hmm
Presumption is the mother of all...something...
And really, you don't seem to have read very far. There is some awesome discourse on Aikido here. May I suggest you consider the idea that what you perceive reflects as much about you as on what you're observing?

Quote:
All I have to do to get everyone involved with my plan is to just post a thread about "Aikido is crap in the Real World!" Then I can reead 56 pages of "Gotcha, I won". You guys are easy! Suckers!
Speaking for myself, whenever I engage in discourse, it's to improve discourse skills and what better way to do that than in difficult discussions? Sometimes the sucker is aware he/she is being played and is simply enjoying the game themselves...for what it's worth.

Gambarimashyo!
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