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Old 05-13-2009, 11:51 AM   #51
Janet Rosen
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Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?

Quote:
Joe McParland wrote: View Post
Janet, I like your post, and I too prefer something of a more alive practice. When I was in the Army, though, we were trained via perfection of form. Wisdom, skills, and so forth can be found on either path. Moreover, each path has its trappings, especially if one is prone to "this & that" / "right & wrong" thinking; such a person may develop the thought that only this path is right, and that path in particular is wrong.

Not an accusation, BTW - just shamelessly using your post as a launch to clarify my earlier comments :-)
No offense taken, Joe. So let me clarify my thoughts: As a student learning kata I expect to work on mastering a form, not changing it. But as I master the most gross movements, the joy of working on kata is focusing on the nuances and how things change - push vs pull, when and how weight shifts, when timing and rhythm changes - things that won't change the form but will change my performance of it. And I also think that the mark of an exceptional teacher and those responsible for the transmission of an art is to continue to observe critically, explore, refine, and if need be, change.

Janet Rosen
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"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
 
Old 05-13-2009, 01:14 PM   #52
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?

Quote:
skidush!
Usually said while performing a really strong nikajo...

B,
R

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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
 
Old 05-13-2009, 03:09 PM   #53
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Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?

Quote:
Joe McParland wrote: View Post
Respectfully, Mary, I spoke to your point.
I don't think you did. I had said:

Quote:
There is no "policy of abnegation" outside of doctrine or dogma. There is abnegation as a necessary practice, giving something up in order to get something else. There's a difference.
...and you replied:

Quote:
The belief that abnegation is necessary practice is a doctrine of one (type of) path.
Do you not see the difference between "abnegation as necessary practice", meaning "abnegation undertaken because it is necessary for some goal" (as opposed to abnegation undertaken for its own sake, or for the sake of some doctrine or dogma), and "abnegation is necessary practice"?

Quote:
Joe McParland wrote: View Post
Cling to and want for nothing and you will have nothing either to gain or to lose.
That's nice, but a bit of a non sequitur here, no?
 
Old 05-13-2009, 03:13 PM   #54
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Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?

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Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
No offense taken, Joe. So let me clarify my thoughts: As a student learning kata I expect to work on mastering a form, not changing it. But as I master the most gross movements, the joy of working on kata is focusing on the nuances and how things change - push vs pull, when and how weight shifts, when timing and rhythm changes - things that won't change the form but will change my performance of it. And I also think that the mark of an exceptional teacher and those responsible for the transmission of an art is to continue to observe critically, explore, refine, and if need be, change.
Well said

 
Old 05-13-2009, 04:21 PM   #55
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Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?

Mary-

What will you have to give up to hear my response the way you want it?

This is a central point, not a non sequitor

 
Old 05-13-2009, 07:56 PM   #56
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Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?

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Brian Northrup wrote: View Post
I am not saying that Aikido is a religion or that O'SENSEI was a religious figure, but by your post you might as well place Jesus or Buddha or Muhammad, in the same light. They are gone so why do we revere them. Also Elvis is gone and he is highly revered as well
Yes, indeedy. With regard to the religious folks, as you mentioned, I think it's very dangerous to revere them such that they are put on pedestals.

Putting anyone on a pedestal is dangerous. When someone is believed to be better than the rest of us it allows and actually fosters the abdication of individual power, individual beauty and individual possibility.

It's just tweaky to me. It's never seemed right or smart or whatever to me. Anybody and everybody is as great and wondrous as anyone who has ever lived, be they Jesus, Mohammed or my Uncle Kenny.

But man are we brought up in a way of thinking which is locked into tunnel vision perception. Sometimes folks sum it all up by saying, "Eh, it's just semantics. Forget about it..."

Semantics are powerful. Why would members of the the human race use the all inclusive term of "race" to divide themselves into exclusive groups via the use of the very same term?

Or how the use of a color to describe a person may elicit loads and loads of preconditioned and judgemental data, whether one is aware of it or not?

Anyway...I know you didn't initiate what I have commented on except for mentioning the religious guys. I missed your post earlier and wanted to reply and have been influenced by some later posts.

And in summation...Did Aikido die with O'Sensei? I'm changing my earlier answer to "I don't know".
 
Old 05-14-2009, 02:48 AM   #57
aikishrine
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Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?

I believe that what O'SENSEI wanted for Aikido passed away with him. I truly appreciate all your feedback, and hope that you keep it coming. Now even though i think his idea of Aikido is gone, i dont believe that it is unattainable to some degree again, at least in some manner. However it is a personal journey that will get us there. As far as revering him, i dont think that that is such a bad thing, after all there are worse examples of people to follow. Both alive and dead. IMHO
 
Old 05-14-2009, 06:49 AM   #58
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Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?

Quote:
Joe McParland wrote: View Post
Mary-

What will you have to give up to hear my response the way you want it?

This is a central point, not a non sequitor
You keep talking to me as if you're the wise Jedi master bestowing the pearls of your wisdom on my obdurately ignorant head. Permit me to say that I reach mutual understanding better when I feel that I'm not being treated as an ignorant inferior, particularly when the person addressing me isn't persistently mischaracterizing what I've said and refusing to acknowledge my clarifications.
 
Old 05-14-2009, 08:14 AM   #59
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Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?

Mary and Joe please forgive me for saying this, but i think it is time you two get a room
 
Old 05-14-2009, 08:19 AM   #60
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?

Hello,

Please forgive me for saying this, but I really do not understand the intended humor here.

PAG

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Mary and Joe please forgive me for saying this, but i think it is time you two get a room

P A Goldsbury
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Old 05-14-2009, 09:55 AM   #61
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Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
...and since women can't grow beards (well, for the most part ), the subject had to be, "men."!
it is because they do not train hard enough .
phil

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
 
Old 05-14-2009, 10:23 AM   #62
Keith Larman
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Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?

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Keith, I already like you from your past posts, but now you're assured a spot in my personal pantheon under the classification, Righteous Hombre. It's a rare honor only topped by folks who quote Kung Fu Panda (until a cooler movie comes out of course).
Ah, well, thank you. Very cool. Remember, there is no charge for awesomeness... or attractiveness.

I only wish I could be as obscure and deep sounding as Joe. But those weren't the sorts of drugs I took back in my day, so I guess I'm doomed to a life of something other than bumper sticker verities... And yes, Kung Fu Panda can fill the void! As can Blazing Saddles... Mongo just pawn in game of life...

Mongo go wrap handle now.

 
Old 05-14-2009, 10:28 AM   #63
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Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?

Allow me to propose a Gedanken (just to prove that I too can pull obscure words out of my, um, back pocket). Since threads attempting to define Aikido in the first place tend to ramble on nearly infinitely with no apparent resolution possible, how then should we assume we could ever resolve whether it is alive or dead?

Please, discuss among yourselves because I'm backing out of the room giggling quietly... I'll check back in a few weeks to see how you're all doin'...


 
Old 05-14-2009, 12:10 PM   #64
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Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
You keep talking to me as if you're the wise Jedi master bestowing the pearls of your wisdom on my obdurately ignorant head. Permit me to say that I reach mutual understanding better when I feel that I'm not being treated as an ignorant inferior, particularly when the person addressing me isn't persistently mischaracterizing what I've said and refusing to acknowledge my clarifications.
That is the answer to the entire puzzle, but do you recognize it?

People communicate in different ways, understand in different ways, prefer different things, and react in different ways.

Your reaction to the way I chose to communicate is not unlike the reaction of an earlier fellow with an adverse reaction to a photo of O-Sensei at the front of the dojo. It's gut-level stuff causing a reaction. Sensibly speaking, though, the picture is just a picture and my words are just words; we all know this, yes? Why be affected at all?

The different paths generally address this point, each in their own way. Which path does one choose? The one that best suits him given his circumstances, I suppose. It's often the case, though, that many paths lead to the realization that the path itself was just a tool to bring you home.

(Some styles of) Aikido can have harsh encounters that simply come, whether the nage enjoys it this way or not. Students perfect forms on their way to being free of form. We learn what it is to have our "ki led" and what it is to "remain centered." We learn to bypass instinctual reaction in favor of spontaneous, appropriate response. "Integration of mind and body" leans toward an understanding that mind and body are not actually separate at all; the lessons we learn through our bodies affect what we may think of as pure thought as well, which is exposed in adversarial conversation or confrontations.

So, is there value in studying the O-Sensei's doka, trying to find his understanding or original intent? That is a path that is appealing to some. Is there value in avoiding such study? That is a path that is appealing to some.

If one stands on one path and mocks those on another, though, it does show very clearly his understanding of neither path. This is like idiots arguing over which tastes better, Poison #1 or Poison #2.

Now, it is my experience that when I use so many words to make a point, those intent on arguing simply have more material to cling to. Consider this my good-faith effort to state my understanding.

Quote:
Brian Northrup wrote: View Post
Mary and Joe please forgive me for saying this, but i think it is time you two get a room
Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Please forgive me for saying this, but I really do not understand the intended humor here.
Well, I laughed It was a clever distraction that pointed to the tension... Or maybe he meant a dokusan room?

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
I only wish I could be as obscure and deep sounding as Joe. But those weren't the sorts of drugs I took back in my day, so I guess I'm doomed to a life of something other than bumper sticker verities...
For over a year, the decaying high-horse on the side of the path continues to swell then blow gas out its ass! That is amazing...

Last edited by Joe McParland : 05-14-2009 at 12:24 PM. Reason: grammar

 
Old 05-14-2009, 12:25 PM   #65
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Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?

Quote:
Joe McParland wrote: View Post
That is the answer to the entire puzzle, but do you recognize it?
I recognized that you misunderstood what I wrote as a result of less than careful reading. As part of your misunderstanding, you said some things that could easily be taken as somewhat judgmental. Having had your error pointed out to you, rather than simply saying, "Oh, yeah, my misunderstanding," you've chosen to start a discussion of communications styles instead, and have continued to make statements ("...but do you recognize it?") implying that I'm the dummy who just doesn't get it. Please feel free to enjoy your tangent, but I don't think communications styles have anything to do with what I was talking about or your misunderstanding of it.
 
Old 05-14-2009, 12:30 PM   #66
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Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I recognized that you misunderstood what I wrote as a result of less than careful reading. As part of your misunderstanding, you said some things that could easily be taken as somewhat judgmental. Having had your error pointed out to you, rather than simply saying, "Oh, yeah, my misunderstanding," you've chosen to start a discussion of communications styles instead, and have continued to make statements ("...but do you recognize it?") implying that I'm the dummy who just doesn't get it. Please feel free to enjoy your tangent, but I don't think communications styles have anything to do with what I was talking about or your misunderstanding of it.
Oh, yeah, my misunderstanding.

 
Old 05-14-2009, 03:24 PM   #67
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Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?

Quote:
Joe McParland wrote: View Post
For over a year, the decaying high-horse on the side of the path continues to swell then blow gas out its ass! That is amazing...
Wow, profound, dude. Another great addition to your body of work here.

 
Old 05-14-2009, 04:02 PM   #68
Joe McParland
 
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Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?

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Wow, profound, dude. Another great addition to your body of work here.
Too bad it's not yet available in Braille.

Don't worry, though: there's still hope that someday you'll be able to respect other people on different paths too.

... which puts us back on topic, again.

 
Old 05-14-2009, 04:06 PM   #69
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Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?

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Don't worry, though: there's still hope that someday you'll be able to respect other people on different paths too.
My exact sentiments for you as well.

 
Old 05-14-2009, 04:42 PM   #70
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Re: Did Aikido die with O'Sensei?

This thread has degenerated into personal discussions.

Thread closed.

-- Jun

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