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Old 05-11-2009, 03:23 PM   #26
NagaBaba
 
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Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Aikido, The Way of Harmony.

The place where harmony is most needed in Aikido is between tori and uke. You are at practice to help each other.

You should of asked tori, " How can I help you with this?"

David
However this 'harmony' should be created by Nage, and not imposed from outside(by instructor or by quoting some books )

Nagababa

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Old 05-11-2009, 03:31 PM   #27
John A Butz
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Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you

I would agree with you if we were discussing randori, Szczepan, but in the course of normal keiko, it is my opinion that both uke and nage contribute to the creation of the technique. Both parties have a role to play, and part of uke's role is in fact to attack in a way that facilitates the technique being practiced.

If you expect nage to be able to handle any type of attack and still perform the instructed technique, you are essentially asking them to abide by the social contract while at the same time giving uke permission to break it. Thats not helpful to the learning process.

Of course, I should stress that I do agree with your statements about uke just giving up or falling nicely just because they think thats what they should do, and I don't want the people I work with to be dive bunnies. But I do want them to be attacking within the parameters of the waza that we are practicing.

Naturally, I expect that as people get more skilled they should be able to handle more powerful attacks, and even attacks that are outside the parameters of the practice. Also, it is very important to increase the intensity of the attacks so that nage is required to really know what they are doing. But I don't think every part of keiko is like that.

After all, you need more then one note to create harmony.
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Old 05-11-2009, 03:31 PM   #28
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Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Steven:

You might want to step back from the situation and re-examine your interactions from an older, more traditional perspective in which the uke serves in the role as the teacher. What kind of a teacher were you in that interaction? What could you have done differently to become a better teacher if that opportunity arose again?

Shihans, Senseis, Sempai and Kohai are ALL STUDENTS IN THIS LEARNING PROCESS! Just because somebody is ahead of us on that path does not mean that they are not working on their own development. As ukes, regardless of the rank of the nage, we must dedicate ourselves to being the best teachers that we can possibly be. That should mean that we foster positive learning in a manner that educates both sides of that equation. This lofty goal on the part of uke requires a lot of integrity and caring.

Marc Abrams
Hi Marc,
It is very interesting approach, in fact Sugano sensei sometimes uses it also.
I think in this situation he used it unconsciously. Sometimes, a student (in this case a Nage) have to face a kind of WALL, to be able to jump on higher level. It can be frustrating experience, but without that you can't learn aikido.

Nagababa

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Old 05-11-2009, 03:37 PM   #29
Janet Rosen
 
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Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you

In direct answer to the title of the thread: I say "Ow! That hurt. Let's both of us slow down and see what is happening."

One of the first things I do when working with a newbie is show them how a committed attack can also be a very slow attack. That means when we slow down we can take apart the technique and figure out the problem. If I can't on two tries, either as nage or uke, I call "onegaishimasu" to my instructor.

Janet Rosen
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Old 05-11-2009, 03:45 PM   #30
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Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you

Quote:
John Butz wrote: View Post
I would agree with you if we were discussing randori, Szczepan, but in the course of normal keiko, it is my opinion that both uke and nage contribute to the creation of the technique. Both parties have a role to play, and part of uke's role is in fact to attack in a way that facilitates the technique being practiced..
I agree, but only with small difference in experience both uke and nage contribute to the creation of the technique. If such situation they dont have correct skills to handle it. But in our case, this difference is big. So logically nage have to handle uke attacks.
Quote:
John Butz wrote: View Post
I
If you expect nage to be able to handle any type of attack and still perform the instructed technique, you are essentially asking them to abide by the social contract while at the same time giving uke permission to break it. Thats not helpful to the learning process...
I fully disagree.
First, if basic technique is well done, there is no opening for uke to react as he likes.
Second - with big difference of experience - uke must have permission to break a 'social contract', as you call it, any moment. It will create a danger (for both, nage and uke) which is a part of Budo practice.Without such context, we are doing socializing, not Budo.

Quote:
John Butz wrote: View Post
I
But I don't think every part of keiko is like that.
I disagree again. In every moment you must expect unexpected. O sensei presented it by his comportment by inviting his uchideshi to attack him any moment.
Otherwise ppl get lazy they start to develop McDojo.

Nagababa

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Old 05-11-2009, 03:47 PM   #31
Marc Abrams
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Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Hi Marc,
It is very interesting approach, in fact Sugano sensei sometimes uses it also.
I think in this situation he used it unconsciously. Sometimes, a student (in this case a Nage) have to face a kind of WALL, to be able to jump on higher level. It can be frustrating experience, but without that you can't learn aikido.
Szczepan:

To me, Aikido requires an awesome amount of integrity. The uke has to be able to be a good and honest teacher, without "tanking" and without the senseless ego involved in intentionally thwarting a technique that is not being practice at a realistic speed (many times, for safety sake).

I have written about the role of uke & nage and how I view ukemi on my website's blog (which I use as a supplemental teaching tool). You can read those blogs on my website- www.aasbk.com

I sometimes wonder if you are just trying to be a contrarian in an impish way, or you actually believe that Aikido is as empty as you sometimes describe it. I can only speak from my own experiences in training directly under Imaizumi Sensei and that is that I find Aikido to be a remarkably effective form of budo in what it teaches us to do and not do. I find that what many people assume as fact is simply their lack of genuine understanding of the true depth of this art. The "holes" that you see in Aikido are seen in all arts that have grown more rapidly than their transmission paradigm was designed for.

Marc Abrams
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Old 05-11-2009, 03:51 PM   #32
Ron Tisdale
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Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you

I think you nailed it, Mr. S!
Best,
Ron
Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Hi Ron,
I had such experience rather frequently as a nage. And the years later suddenly I started to have it in the role of uke.

Now I think the reason is that nage is concentrated on one particular point(i.e. lock an arm ) instead of early controlling whole body of attacker. This is a pedagogical weakness in aikido, we dont teach the counters with other body members(head, elbows, knee and legs) early in the training. And nage feels safe having one lock but not having uke off balance - he is forgetting that aikido it is INTERACTION.

Ron Tisdale
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Old 05-11-2009, 03:56 PM   #33
Ron Tisdale
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Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you

Quote:
The "holes" that you see in Aikido are seen in all arts that have grown more rapidly than their transmission paradigm was designed for.
Very important context, that...

I would like to thank the original poster for inciting such a valuable thread.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 05-11-2009, 07:40 PM   #34
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Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Hello Pater,

Is your question: Have you not learned yet to attack the way not to make any trouble for the ppl that are higher ranking then you ?
PAG. No. Your spelling, by the way, is terrible.

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
So what exactly is wrong with being not cooperating uke(7 months training) for a tori that have a lot of years of training? Why you consider it as a challenge??? Is it not normal that students have to make experience with cooperating uke but also with not cooperating uke?
PAG. It is quite possible not to cooperate with nage without being obstinate--without seeing the encounter as a challenge. Equally, it is quite possible to cooperate with uke, but also cause the technique not to work.

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
I personally expect that already a student with 2-3 years of experience can handle any behavior of beginner with 7 months of training, however I don't expect 100% sucess ratio. Acceptance of a failure of a technique is a very important learning.
Otherwise I believe that a teaching systems is not efficient.
PAG. Of course.

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Oh, there is a concept of "correct ukemi" in aikido?
PAG. Of course, there is. Haven't you realised this yet? It is the ura-gawa of the concept of "correct technique".

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
May be O sensei taught 'correct ukemi' for his students? Or rather, it is a way to tank for instructor otherwise he is not able to execute a technique?
PAG. O Sensei certainly expected correct attacks and also correct ukemi from his deshi, or he did not call on them very often. Perhaps you should ask Yamada, Chiba or Sugano Shihans if they ever 'tanked' for O Sensei.

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
If I remember well, Kami was telling O sensei what and how he must execute a technique - could you explain the "correct ukemi" in such context, please?
Ah, you were there at the time, were you? Who was uke?

Best wishes, as always.

PAG

Last edited by Peter Goldsbury : 05-11-2009 at 07:43 PM.

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Old 05-11-2009, 08:27 PM   #35
Peter Goldsbury
 
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Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
I specifically remember an uke I had in one of your classes at the aiki expo, and I was having a LOT of trouble throwing him with shihonage. At one point, he said to me, "you could break my arm here, but you can not really throw me" or something to that effect.

Although I was a brown belt (somehwere between 3rd and 1st kyu), I had no idea why it was so difficult for me to take his balance, or why anyone would allow themselves to be put in a position where their arm could be broken, but they would not then take ukemi! Boy, I had a lot to learn! Now, it seems every time I step on the mat, I HAVE A LOT TO LEARN!

Best,
Ron (I do realize that those thoughts will probably cause me some consternation, even at this late date!)
Hello Ron,
Was your partner one of the ukes I brought with me? If it was Bart, then I am not surprised that you had trouble dealing with him. He is big, strong, and has done martial arts long enough to have developed a sense for openings during a waza. If you give him an opening, he will tend to take it. Like Szczepan, he regards it as 100% nage's job to deal with whatever attack he gives, and to maintain the initial control over uke right through the waza, especially if nage is more advanced than he is. He is very good to train with, but also frustrates many of his partners during training. I am sure you know that there are potential 'suki' or openings in shiho nage or 1-kyo ura, especially with a big and strong uke (whom you have not quite succeeded in unbalancing right from the beginning).

Best wishes,

PAG

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Old 05-11-2009, 09:01 PM   #36
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Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you

Hello,

A common effect of exchanges like this is to make the initial situation clearer than it was with the first post. So, here are a few more comments.

Quote:
Steve Thomas wrote: View Post
One thing I see people doing a lot as Uke is giving Tori a "free fall" (unasked) if they think Tori is struggling. As Tori I find this particularly unhelpful. It leaves Tori searching after a feeling of moving correctly, when in fact the success of the technique was not down to a difference in anything Tori was doing but a change in what Uke was doing. I find this unhelpful to the extent that I don't do tend to do it as Uke (and nobody has ever asked me to). Hence my comment comparing me to others in the dojo. Maybe "consistent" might be a better word that "obstinate". As Uke I also expect Tori to say how fast and powerful he/she wants the attack to be, and this is particularly true given that I am still early on the path in Aikido, I expect the senior students to give me some guidance. If Tori asked me to fall easily I would, if that was what she though would best aid her training.
PAG. Your response indicates to me that you do know quite a lot about how to attack, and so you have partially answered my earlier question. Moreover, you indicate that in your dojo training is not done in silence. In other words, you expect nage to tell you how fast and powerful the attack is to be, rather (as in some dojos) than allowing this to become clear as the training proceeds.

Quote:
Steve Thomas wrote: View Post
Was not working to my satisfaction? The technique was not working to her satisfaction. She was visibly becoming frustrated that what she was doing was not having the effect she wanted and was simply hitting me harder on each attack, even though the attack was coming in slightly softer since my arm was getting sore. If the block is not breaking my posture (sometimes you can give it the benefit of the doubt, but this wasn't even close), should I just lean over deliberately to make her think that she has achieved what she's trying to? Is that really a valuable way of training? I do not set out as Uke to challenge or test Tori. Really it is up to Tori to challenge herself, I am simply there to assist her in developing her Aikido. If she wants me to fall over for basically no reason, she could just ask and that's what I would do.
PAG. Sure, but the technique was obviously not working to your satisfaction, hence this thread. From the questions you are asking above about how you should attack, I am curious why no conversation took place.

Quote:
Steve Thomas wrote: View Post
Is Aikido a dance? Preset movements executed by both partners? If that's what she wants then great, I will humor her. It would be nice if she communicated it verbally than by hitting me though, particularly given that she is the senior. If she thinks my Ukemi is excessively resilient, then she could say without any danger of offending me and I would change.
PAG. Well, as others have indicated, to some extent the dojo is an 'artificial' place, where prescribed movements take place involving two or more people. This is what is meant by kata or waza.

Quote:
Steve Thomas wrote: View Post
What did I learn? That I do not want to train with her in future. This is a shame, but isn't such a big deal, there are plenty of other people in the club to train with. Aikido is a frustrating art to learn as I have found and I think her frustration becomes destructive.
PAG. Well, it is a pity if you learned only that. If you train regularly at this dojo, you will inevitably encounter her again and again, so it is probably better to deal with her--and your--frustration now, rather than letting it grow.

Quote:
Steve Thomas wrote: View Post
"Reaped what you sowed" sounds like a very dangerous attitude in Aikido. You think Tori is justified in injuring Uke because Uke is not going down easily enough? Injuring Uke would always a very easy task for Tori should she wish.
PAG. I used the the term in a specific sentence that also had a context. Your partner was clearly frustrated and might have thought this. To ask whether I myself think that injuries are justified is to take the phrase right out of context.

Quote:
Steve Thomas wrote: View Post
The nature of my Ukemi during waza depends on what principle Tori is trying to learn. If the principle of a technique is an entry that breaks Uke's posture then a throw where Tori moves through Uke's center (as was the case here), then I'll push Tori to break my posture with her entry, otherwise we're just dancing. If it were a Kokyu-nage, where she was learning to blend with the direction and energy of the attack, then the Ukemi would be very different. I would keep the attack energy going in more of a straight line and not pull back. If the entry were an atemi, intended to off-balance me via some flinch response, then the Ukemi would have been different again, so that she could explore the atemi without having to hit me hard enough to really damage. Uke's purpose in my mind is to teach Tori how her movement affects another person. The only effect of her movement was to hurt my arm after repeated hits. Is that a failure of my Ukemi?
PAG. Fine. But don't forget that being uke is a learning situation for you, also.

Best wishes,

PAG

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Old 05-12-2009, 02:04 AM   #37
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you

Quote:
Steve Thomas wrote: View Post
... I only really had two options: weaken the attack and start falling easy or put up with the pain and keep going. ...
I think that everyone is responsibel for oneself.
In our practice uke is expected to attack only with the speed and the force he or she can stand. Espacially when practicing with a senior.
The harder uke attacks the faster and stronger nages technique will be.

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
... we dont teach the counters with other body members(head, elbows, knee and legs) early in the training. And nage feels safe having one lock but not having uke off balance - he is forgetting that aikido it is INTERACTION.
Well may be you don't teach or learn that way. In our Aikido - Tissier, Endo, remember? - this is normal from the first day.

Quote:
However this 'harmony' should be created by Nage, and not imposed from outside ...
Yes! (I see you learned something from the seminar instaed )

Please excuse me:
Some of the statements cause me to ask some question. I don't want to offend someone but simply can't picture your way of practice.

Quote:
Mark Peckett wrote: View Post
Beginners do indeed tend to:
b) attack without giving their centre away.]
In our aikido it is the other way round: Good ukemi means not to give ones center away. This is essential for our understanding of attacks. It is Beginners who give their centers away. Seniors don't do.
Do you also practice attacks without giving yourself away and staying centered?

Quote:
One of the problems with aikido, particularly for beginners, is that tori knows what attack is coming and uke knows what defence is coming, so it is always possible for uke to prevent the technique -
This Situation is one of our usual methods keiko: uke tries to prevent the technique, nage has to do it instead. We often practice this way. And a senior is expected to work a certain technique even if uke knows it and tries to hinder it.
Don't you ever try this in you dojo in normal keiko?
How do you react in keiko if uke frezes or blocks a technique?

Sure: Nobody does that when being called in front of the class as uke of the teacher. But in normal practice we freeze ( we 'tank'?) if nage lets us.

Quote:
John Butz wrote: View Post
in the course of normal keiko, it is my opinion that both uke and nage contribute to the creation of the technique.
Well I don't expect my uke, to make my technique work.I expect my uke to show me where it doesn't work.
If your technique relies on uke how then do you train with uke who are not aware what they should do? (other style, non aikidoka ...)

I'm not talking about beginners practice but about the practice of seniors or of a senior witht a beginner.

best wishes, Carsten
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Old 05-12-2009, 03:04 AM   #38
Eva Antonia
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Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you

Dear all,

we had this situation in our dojo also, very much in the same constellation. We have two white belts, both young, strong and VERY rigid. And we had the same attack, yokomen uchi tenchi nage (I suppose that's the technique Steve talks about), and one of these attacked me with full power thinking that was what is required from uke, I responded but didn't know he couldn't take ukemi. So he fell on his shoulder and was hurt for some weeks. I have to say he dealt very gallantly with it and didn't make me a single reproach.

And yesterday we had the same thing for udekime nage. Uke - the other young strong giant - just didn't want to make his mae ukemi and struggled not to get out of balance. So the udekime nage technique hurt him awfully in his arm muscles (they got squeezed), and I think it's not because I over-applied the technique; I even didn't try to throw him against his wish, but luckily again, that guy is also not thinking that he wouldn't train with me again.

I had the same on my side - resisting a sankyo I thought was badly done, and then tori just did it somehow better, and there was something torn in my elbow that restrained my movements nearly for a year. It was like 30° less bendable than the other elbow. My fault - I could have resisted less or accept that in the end he did the sankyo well...

I think these are things that happen, the more you are relaxed less they happen, but still it arrives. If tori hasn't the intention to hurt you I think one should just forget about it and think about one's own error, and if you are in the "hurting tori" position maybe not insist on doing the technique by force if it doesn't work as it should.

Best regards,

Eva
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Old 05-12-2009, 07:18 AM   #39
RonRagusa
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Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
How do you react in keiko if uke frezes or blocks a technique?
A frozen uke is no longer attacking, no technique necessary. If uke is in a position to block a technique then his balance was not taken initially and the technique was executed prematurely.

Ron
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Old 05-12-2009, 08:01 AM   #40
Ron Tisdale
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Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you

Hi Eva,
This is an important post, but it is also highlighting an area where there is a very thin line between correct practice and abuse.

I think we should always try at least once to warn uke gently *before* the point where a beginner is hurt due to being obstinate, and certainly if uke is simply unaware of the danger their natural reaction puts them in. How that warning takes place is different in different dojo, and that is probably as it should be.

I also think statements (as I have made myself) to the effect of "I could break / rip / tear said body part here", are not really good warnings. Often, it is simply not the case in a particular situation. And even when it is, it often sounds to uke as an egotisitcal statement, rather than a friendly warning of a dangerous position.

This is an area I struggle with, both as uke and nage/shite. Having injured people in the past, and being strongly opposed to doing that now or in the future, I often wonder how to effectively communicate to uke that sometimes, to protect yourself, you have to "take ukemi". Especially with beginners. And without "weakening the keiko".

Best,
Ron
Quote:
Eva Röben wrote: View Post
Dear all,

we had this situation in our dojo also, very much in the same constellation. We have two white belts, both young, strong and VERY rigid. And we had the same attack, yokomen uchi tenchi nage (I suppose that's the technique Steve talks about), and one of these attacked me with full power thinking that was what is required from uke, I responded but didn't know he couldn't take ukemi. So he fell on his shoulder and was hurt for some weeks. I have to say he dealt very gallantly with it and didn't make me a single reproach.

And yesterday we had the same thing for udekime nage. Uke - the other young strong giant - just didn't want to make his mae ukemi and struggled not to get out of balance. So the udekime nage technique hurt him awfully in his arm muscles (they got squeezed), and I think it's not because I over-applied the technique; I even didn't try to throw him against his wish, but luckily again, that guy is also not thinking that he wouldn't train with me again.

I had the same on my side - resisting a sankyo I thought was badly done, and then tori just did it somehow better, and there was something torn in my elbow that restrained my movements nearly for a year. It was like 30° less bendable than the other elbow. My fault - I could have resisted less or accept that in the end he did the sankyo well...

I think these are things that happen, the more you are relaxed less they happen, but still it arrives. If tori hasn't the intention to hurt you I think one should just forget about it and think about one's own error, and if you are in the "hurting tori" position maybe not insist on doing the technique by force if it doesn't work as it should.

Best regards,

Eva

Ron Tisdale
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Old 05-12-2009, 08:09 AM   #41
Ron Tisdale
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Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you

Yes, that was Bart! He gave me much to think about. And in the best of worlds, he and Szczepan are correct. Unbalancing at first contact really is where the "meat" in keiko is, in any case.

Best,
Ron
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Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Hello Ron,
Was your partner one of the ukes I brought with me? If it was Bart, then I am not surprised that you had trouble dealing with him. He is big, strong, and has done martial arts long enough to have developed a sense for openings during a waza. If you give him an opening, he will tend to take it. Like Szczepan, he regards it as 100% nage's job to deal with whatever attack he gives, and to maintain the initial control over uke right through the waza, especially if nage is more advanced than he is. He is very good to train with, but also frustrates many of his partners during training. I am sure you know that there are potential 'suki' or openings in shiho nage or 1-kyo ura, especially with a big and strong uke (whom you have not quite succeeded in unbalancing right from the beginning).

Best wishes,

PAG

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 05-12-2009, 10:40 AM   #42
ruthmc
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Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you

Hi all,

I'd say that yokomen uchi is one of the most difficult attacks to both make and to respond to.

It's all too easy to get the timing wrong (as both uke and tori ) and then you get bruises, or worse!

Your best bet is to make the attack at a speed you and tori can both deal with, which may not be the speed you first thought of...

btw, Timing is one of the hardest things to learn in Aiki, and most folk struggle with it for many years

Ruth
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Old 05-12-2009, 10:59 AM   #43
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you

Hi
Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
A frozen uke is no longer attacking, no technique necessary.
Ah, it depends: A frozen uke may start another attack.
And how do you deal with this in your keiko: Do you move frozen uke or do you stop the technique and start again?

Quote:
If uke is in a position to block a technique then his balance was not taken initially and the technique was executed prematurely.
So what do you do if it comes to this situation?
Do you try move the blocking uke and go on with technique or do you stop and begin a new attack?

Carsten
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Old 05-12-2009, 11:27 AM   #44
Ron Tisdale
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Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you

Hi Carsten,

It depends, sometimes I start over (I dislike doing this) sometimes I try to find what I'm doing wrong in the moment and fix that to be able to move uke.

Atemi is sometimes a part of that...but I dislike overdependence on atemi with a cooperative partner (one who is not allowed to just keep attacking any way they see fit).

I do think starting fresh with just the first movement can be helpfull...as has been pointed out earlier, if uke's balance has not been broken at first contact, it may be difficult to do anything else. But from a self-defence and wiring perspective, I dislike stopping and starting...it makes more sense to me to make the best of the situation and continue as best you can.

Best,
Ron

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 05-12-2009 at 11:31 AM.

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 05-12-2009, 11:34 AM   #45
jonreading
 
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Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you

To the original post...

I believe that uke generally has the obligation to resolve aikido technique. That is, nage creates a scenario to which uke must respond. I try to promote the attitude that nage is responsible to illustrate the response most desired to resolve the technique, and uke is responsible to identify that response and comply with nage.

The movie Mad Max has this great scene where Max has handcuffed a villan's leg to a vehicle that is going to explode any second. Max throws the villan a hacksaw and says [something like] "Ths vehicle is going to explode in 30 seconds, you can cut through your ankle in 20." Max then leaves the seen and the vehicle explodes. Nage controlled the scenario and illustrated to uke the most desirable [?] outcome given the situation. Hollywood horror for sure, but a reminder that controlling a scenario means you set the parameters of engagement.

Nage controls the scenario and directs uke to resolve technique. I belive aikido is about coercion, not cooperation. "You have two choices - do not resist and do what I want or resist and do what I want." One choice is always more painful than the other

Coercion turns into coopertaion because senior students understand better how oyohenka works and they alter their training to allow stronger, faster and harder training by cooperating with their partner to maximize safety.

Aikido gives us trouble because we set up these false scenarios of conflict and then execute them. Sometimes we think, "I coulda' gotten out of that," or "hey, that wasn't what he was supposed to do." It sounds like you felt yor partner was not in control and applied unecessary force to create a facade of control. We don't know what you partner felt. However, I echo several other posters. Stop training, express your doubts and allow nage to try again focusing on those areas you outline. If there is still confusion, ask sensei to clarify technique. You should not respond out of obligation, but you should respond out of concern for your safety. You need to learn when your body is at risk and protect it - even if that means stopping exercise...
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Old 05-12-2009, 12:06 PM   #46
NagaBaba
 
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Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
Nage controls the scenario and directs uke to resolve technique. I belive aikido is about coercion, not cooperation. "You have two choices - do not resist and do what I want or resist and do what I want." One choice is always more painful than the other
...
I see you are big supporter of idea controlling uke using pain So if somebody doesn't feel pain anymore, you will not be able to control him efficiently?

I the other hand, in aikido we are suppose to overcome a dualism between uke and tori. From your description('two choices') it looks like you are going deeper and deeper into this dualism.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 05-12-2009, 02:15 PM   #47
RonRagusa
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Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Ah, it depends: A frozen uke may start another attack.
In which case he is no longer frozen. Assuming we aren't practicing randori, proceed as originally intended.

Quote:
And how do you deal with this in your keiko: Do you move frozen uke or do you stop the technique and start again?
For an uke to grab me he must first move to reach me, no? I do not stand around waiting to be grabbed and so if he is to continue his attack he must follow me. This precludes his being frozen. If he stops his attack then I assume he is no longer interested in practicing the technique and I move on to someone else. If we are practicing a static grab I move me; uke is free to follow or not, I have no interest in controlling his behavior. If he is to keep his balance he must move with me and so is not frozen but in motion. If we are practicing a striking technique then uke is in motion from the outset. If he strikes and then ceases moving see above. If he continues to move when I evade his blow he is, again, not frozen.

Quote:
So what do you do if it comes to this situation?
Do you try move the blocking uke and go on with technique or do you stop and begin a new attack?
If my uke successfully blocks my technique I won't force the issue, we begin again.

Ron
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Old 05-12-2009, 04:24 PM   #48
sisley
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Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you

Quote:
Steve Thomas wrote: View Post
Let me start off by saying that as Uke, I am probably more obstinate that a lot of people in my dojo. I'm not saying that I struggle and fight against Tori, but at the same time, I don't give my center away, Tori has to take it. Also, unless Tori asks for something different, I will always give a proper, full-force attack. I do this because I think both Uke and Tori learn more that way.

Anyway, about a month ago I was training with a girl who is a lot more experienced than I am (I've been training about 7 months, she's been Aikido for quite a few years).
(snip)

The large difference in experience meant I couldn't really help her with what was going wrong.

So she was getting frustrated and she started to get very "hitty".

(snip, snip)

How would you deal with this situation? I know she didn't want to injure me (she's quite a good friend). I don't really want to become an "easy Uke" when training with her, since nobody learns anything that way and there is no point in training if nothing is being learned. Equally, I don't want the senior students to think I'm patronizing them (I'm still obviously very junior).
The question that I have is how did your partner attack you and take ukemi for you? Often a senior student or a teacher will model how you should perform ukemi. Did she attack you at full speed? Did you become 'hitty'? Are her arms sore?

A word about frustration. My teacher used to tell me that frustration comes from the mind knowing what the body should do but the body isn't ready to perform at that level yet. This simply means that she was probably processing things on a higher level and therefore her frustration may not have been about you, your attack, or even doing the technique.

I disagree with your comment about not being able to learn anything from an easy uke. Footwork and timing are two important aspects of Aikido that I think don't require an uke to resist and in fact may be studied more easily with a cooperative uke.

To all things, they're correct time and place.

You ask what we would do in such a situation. Probably, knowing myself, I would have said, "Ouch!"

Why didn't you tell her that what she is doing hurts you? Taking the humble beginner's stance, you could have followed up by asking how to improve your attack so that it wouldn''t hurt so much.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot. I also disagree with your idea that you cannot help a senior student. I'm not saying that it's appropriate to tell a senior how to do a technique, but telling them what you feel as the technique is being applied can be valuable.

Keep training. And ask more questions!

--jimbo
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Old 05-13-2009, 02:45 AM   #49
Tim Ruijs
 
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Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you

Reading this thread shows how different people approach the role of aite. In my experience most people wait until they get hurt and only then move their body out of harms way. I think this is bad Budo. One should always in every situation try and protect oneself, both physically as mentally.
That is not to say that aite moves before the technique has even been applied Aite should allow tori to practise. It's aites responsibility to protect himself during the exercise.
On the other hand I believe tori must control the situation in such a manner that no accidents (are likely to) happen. Control by pain is very bad and will at some point fail you

All this becomes more problematic when both tori and aite have no understanding of their roles. This goes for newcomers to Aikido, but also (regretfully) for the more experienced.

Be alert and always protect yourself no matter what role you're in.
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Old 05-13-2009, 10:57 AM   #50
StevieT
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Re: What to do when what Tori is doing is hurting you

Quote:
Eva Röben wrote: View Post
Dear all,
we had this situation in our dojo also, very much in the same constellation. We have two white belts, both young, strong and VERY rigid. And we had the same attack, yokomen uchi tenchi nage (I suppose that's the technique Steve talks about), and one of these attacked me with full power thinking that was what is required from uke, I responded but didn't know he couldn't take ukemi. So he fell on his shoulder and was hurt for some weeks. I have to say he dealt very gallantly with it and didn't make me a single reproach.
It was either tenchi nage or some variant of second form irimi nage, I don't remember which. We were actually training something very similar last night and I realize now what was going wrong. It's one of those techniques where Uke tends to get hurt if Tori is late. If Tori neutralizes the Yokomen attack before it's really developed then Uke comes out unscathed. If Tori lets the attack develop then tries to respond to it once it's reached full force, then there is almost always a huge clash of energy which is very much a block, rather than a deflection, and not very Aikido-like. The block also doesn't affect Uke's posture, no matter how compliant Uke is trying to be. Because of the point on the arm at which the deflection occurs, it hurts Uke every time, no matter how little he/she tries to resist. If Tori decides that the reason it isn't working is that she isn't blocking hard enough, it just hurts even more.

It was really a problem about distance and timing (like most problems in Aikido, I guess).
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