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Old 05-05-2009, 01:25 PM   #76
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: Aikido or Judo, which is more martial?

Quote:
If you know wheather Aikido teaches fighting or not you're either unlucky enough to have been assaulted numerous times or you're a criminal.
Please, all you have to do is look at how we train to see that we don't teach fighting. I can see debate around whether what we teach, train, and learn has "applications for fighting"...

But saying here, grab my wrist...is not training for fighting.

Best,
Ron (Ellis has an interesting article in his book on this. I was just rereading that this past weekend.)

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 05-05-2009, 01:51 PM   #77
Phil Van Treese
Dojo: Tampa Judo and Aikido Dojo, Tampa, Fl
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Smile Re: Aikido or Judo, which is more martial?

English is my 7th language, and I can spell correctly in all languages I speak.
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Old 05-05-2009, 02:18 PM   #78
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: Aikido or Judo, which is more martial?

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Hello Chuck,
What do you think, the right teacher, what will be easier for him to develop martial aspect of art:
1. having as a primary material 3rd dan of judo
2. having as a primary material 3rd dan of aikido?
Of course, it depends on who their teacher is/was, what the peer group they trained with was like, their own mind/heart values, etc., and for sure, who promoted them. ... and oh yeah, what sort of real life physical combative situations they've survived. There are sandan and then there are sandan.

Best regards,

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
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Old 05-05-2009, 07:48 PM   #79
Ketsan
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Re: Aikido or Judo, which is more martial?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Please, all you have to do is look at how we train to see that we don't teach fighting. I can see debate around whether what we teach, train, and learn has "applications for fighting"...

But saying here, grab my wrist...is not training for fighting.

Best,
Ron (Ellis has an interesting article in his book on this. I was just rereading that this past weekend.)
How do we train? Do we all train the same way? If what you teach has applications for fighting and you impart that knowledge to your students then you have done as much as anyone can to teach them fighting.

If a guy trained in Thai boxing breaks into my house and I confront him with an iwama ryu bokken is he trained for the fight he's about to find himself in? I would say not. In that case he isn't trained for real world fighting because in the real world there are people with big sticks who know how to use them.
The same is true if the guy was a judoka or a boxer or a BJJer. They're all equally likely to end up with a crushed skull after loosing a real fight. Why? Because their arts have no martial application they are not adaptable to circumstances because these arts have defined what is and is not a fight and they have attempted to teach "fighting".

Aikido makes no such attempt. We know to make such an attempt is hubris. Aikido comes from this martial culture where low cunning and constant trickery were regarded as the norm and assumptions about how you would be attacked would get you killed.

In the same vein if you attack a thai boxer morote dori (i.e you grab his guard) and you know how to unbalance him with there isn't really much he can do because he can't punch and kick across his own centre line.
This is not a "realistic attack" this is not "real fighting" but he will end up in the real A&E none the less.

So you say "Aikido is not training for fightiing" perhaps not but this ironically only demonstrates how martial Aikido is. We know we can't predict our opponent or the circumstances under which we fight. We realise other systems are hopelessly optimistic when they define how other people will attack us and we train accordingly.
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Old 05-05-2009, 08:01 PM   #80
NagaBaba
 
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Re: Aikido or Judo, which is more martial?

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Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
My preference is 3rd dan judo as primary material. I'll say it again, I think I'd have a MUCH better base with judo. Perhaps not as much the competition based stuff, but even with only that...those guys have a solid base to build on.

Best,
Ron
That is one of the reasons for my first reply to this thread

Nagababa

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Old 05-05-2009, 08:03 PM   #81
NagaBaba
 
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Re: Aikido or Judo, which is more martial?

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Phil Van Treese wrote: View Post
English is my 7th language, and I can spell correctly in all languages I speak.
Lucky you

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 05-05-2009, 08:08 PM   #82
JO
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Re: Aikido or Judo, which is more martial?

Mars is the Roman god of war. If one defines martial as that relating to war, both judo and aikido are descended from old military combat arts but neither have much to do with war anymore. One is a modern sport and the other is method of self improvement.

Both are martial in the sense that they maintain a focus on training revolving around physical conflict. I am also of the opinion that they both achieve their goals best when the "martial" and "effective" aspects of their techniques are maintained. In judo this is just a lot more obvious and easier to verify. Judo has the advantage of clear goals and methods while in aikido no two people seem to able to agree on the goals or the best methods for achieving those goals.

So which is more martial. I vote for neither as the bombs rattling my windows remind me of how empty handed fighting is somewhat removed from the realities of the battlefield (I live near a military base, not in a war zone, for those who may be wondering).

Jonathan Olson
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Old 05-06-2009, 06:51 AM   #83
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido or Judo, which is more martial?

I'm sorry Alex, but I think you give the rank and file of combative sports too little credit, and the rank and file of aikido and similar arts too much.

Quote:
If a guy trained in Thai boxing breaks into my house and I confront him with an iwama ryu bokken is he trained for the fight he's about to find himself in?
Nice hypothetical. But that is all that is...unless you have actually *faced* a Thai boxer with your bokken. Have you? Have *you* trained for that situation? If so, what was the result? Plenty of people who don't train have actually taken away the big stick and beaten their assailent over the head with it. Sometimes it just happens. Depending on the people involved, where they train, how they train, etc, anything can happen. By the way, you assume you will *get* to your bokken, and that someone who is breaking into your house entered someone else's property unarmed. In my experience, even most criminals aren't that stupid, and most people relaxing and/or sleeping in their house don't necessarily have a weapon to hand. You, of course, may be the exception...I know I tend to keep a weapon within reach (just as a mental habit) when at home in my place. But then there a quite a few, so its easy...

And most importantly, I don't think we should make assumptions about arts *we* don't train in, or what other training they might engage in.

Quote:
We realise other systems are hopelessly optimistic when they define how other people will attack us and we train accordingly.
Wow...can't get on board with this at all. I see as much as that in aikido as anywhere else. Try out a Pukulan fighter with two kerambits. Better yet, one trained in judo as well. I think he'd see your bokken and raise you a visit to the morgue.

Best,
Ron

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 05-06-2009 at 06:54 AM.

Ron Tisdale
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Old 05-06-2009, 08:09 AM   #84
Aikibu
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Re: Aikido or Judo, which is more martial?

Quote:
Jonathan Olson wrote: View Post
Mars is the Roman god of war. If one defines martial as that relating to war, both judo and aikido are descended from old military combat arts but neither have much to do with war anymore. One is a modern sport and the other is method of self improvement.

Both are martial in the sense that they maintain a focus on training revolving around physical conflict. I am also of the opinion that they both achieve their goals best when the "martial" and "effective" aspects of their techniques are maintained. In judo this is just a lot more obvious and easier to verify. Judo has the advantage of clear goals and methods while in aikido no two people seem to able to agree on the goals or the best methods for achieving those goals.

So which is more martial. I vote for neither as the bombs rattling my windows remind me of how empty handed fighting is somewhat removed from the realities of the battlefield (I live near a military base, not in a war zone, for those who may be wondering).
Outstanding! Thank you.

William Hazen
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