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Old 04-18-2009, 09:49 AM   #26
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Bad Advice and Self Defense

FWIW, my kids (9 and 4) do judo. Judo is not expressly about self defence/defense, but you do learn some very, very good basic structure upon which to build a sound method of self defense. Same with many forms of BJJ.

I think though, for younger kids, you can't beat the standard and very proven Kodokan method of training at that age.

It really stresses the fundamentals that need to be learned at that age in a safe, constructive environment.

Sure, striking arts are okay, but I think they are really not dealling much with the reality of what you will deal with in a self defense situation where someone is seriously trying to impose their will on you.

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Old 04-18-2009, 11:04 AM   #27
majin29
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Re: Bad Advice and Self Defense

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
FWIW, my kids (9 and 4) do judo. Judo is not expressly about self defence/defense, but you do learn some very, very good basic structure upon which to build a sound method of self defense. Same with many forms of BJJ.

I think though, for younger kids, you can't beat the standard and very proven Kodokan method of training at that age.

It really stresses the fundamentals that need to be learned at that age in a safe, constructive environment.

Sure, striking arts are okay, but I think they are really not dealling much with the reality of what you will deal with in a self defense situation where someone is seriously trying to impose their will on you.
What is the Kodokan method?

I seek not to know all the answers but to understand the questions
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Old 04-18-2009, 02:00 PM   #28
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Bad Advice and Self Defense

not really a method per se, but basic Kodokan Judo, the judo curriculum commonly prescribed and followed by most traditional Judo Schools.

http://judoinfo.com/whatis.htm

http://www.kodokan.org/

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Old 04-21-2009, 08:55 AM   #29
Min Kang
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Re: Bad Advice and Self Defense

From a purely practical standpoint re running away from an attacker:

Have you seen what the average (non-jogging) woman wears on her feet?

They that have power to hurt and will do none,
That do not do the thing they most do show,
Who, moving others, are themselves as stone ...
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Old 04-21-2009, 09:01 AM   #30
lbb
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Re: Bad Advice and Self Defense

You speak as if there were such a thing as an average woman.
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Old 04-21-2009, 08:49 PM   #31
wideawakedreamer
 
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Re: Bad Advice and Self Defense

Quote:
Min Kang wrote: View Post
From a purely practical standpoint re running away from an attacker:

Have you seen what the average (non-jogging) woman wears on her feet?
If you're talking about heels, have you ever had your foot stepped on by a woman wearing heels? OUCH.

Although a really determined attacker would probably smack her in the head for that.

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Old 04-22-2009, 03:59 AM   #32
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Bad Advice and Self Defense

Well
Be it men or women, I do not think there is any substitute to physical training and body conditioning.
If you do horse riding you can expect to get decked, similarily if you are in an open hand fight expect to get hit.

Regardless of the art, I believe that you do need do some from of resistance training, weapons and multiple attackers.
You need to familiar against opponent that rushes you, ambush you or fights from an organised position.
As someone mentioned before, knowing the laws is paramount, you need to know where SD stops and assault starts.

Ideally, you will have striking and grappling.
Ground work is a nice plus for men and a must for women but to be on safe side you should be able to on attack and escape from the ground basic position. By escape I mean being able to get back up and not to end up there in the first place.

To get and adequate level of competence and ability, you will need minimum 2 to 3 years, regardless of what you do (Provided that the underlying principles are sound).
In our part of the world, you will really only face trained and able fighter if you do competition or if you own money to people you should not have borrowed from.
So having a superior skill set to your potential opponent is not that hard to obtain.

Even purely striking or purely grappling arts will be adequate provided that you cater for the different type of attacks, multiple opponents and weapons in your training.
To be fair a bit of the art that is not practiced, will probably de facto be included because you do need to defend against it. And again a bit of ground work will probably creep up.

Even though with the right training you can get proficient relatively quickly at certain type certain aspect but the real time consuming bugbears is to know what to do when.
I my opinion there is no quick way to that.

phil

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 04-22-2009, 06:19 AM   #33
Min Kang
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Re: Bad Advice and Self Defense

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
You speak as if there were such a thing as an average woman.
Touche. I mean, "Yes, Ma'am!"

As far as self-defense is concerned, I think pepper gas, taser, running shoes - and the initial training + refreshers in using them is probably the most effective way to go.

From what I've observed, most people have an aversion to hitting another person. That, plus the human tendency for initial denial of an unpleasant and out of context event such as a car wreck or a physical attack puts the "victim" so far behind the time/power curve that you need to escalate.

And, of course, as has been mentioned before, situational awareness is key - and run when you can!

They that have power to hurt and will do none,
That do not do the thing they most do show,
Who, moving others, are themselves as stone ...
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Old 04-22-2009, 07:54 AM   #34
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Bad Advice and Self Defense

Women are still here and going strong...I don't think you have to worry your little heads about us. ;o)
Mary
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Old 04-30-2009, 09:49 AM   #35
Phil Van Treese
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Re: Bad Advice and Self Defense

I received once a "martial arts" flyer. In it the "Grand Master" was teaching 8 martial arts as 1. 1 of the "martial arts" this "grand master" was going to teach was "Budo"!!!
I think I have said this before. Who ever said that there would be no con artists if people didn't want to get conned is right on. What ever happened to the old working out and sweating routine?? Here we are, most of us as instructors that have been thru the ropes, been thru pain, and survived so we can help people to defend themselves and then here come the BSers that takes away from us. It's almost now that people want to do things the easy way and that just won't get them anywhere. Thank God we're legit here.
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Old 04-30-2009, 11:21 AM   #36
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Re: Bad Advice and Self Defense

I took a RAD class (if I remember it correctly). I learned some valuable things in there. They taught things like: kick to groin, palm heel to face/nose, hammer fist to top of head, how to punch various ways, choke breaks (standing and laying down) along with a few other things. In the end, 3 guys dressed up in the red suits and we had to simulate some situations. Surprisingly, it was more realistic to me then I thought. It did give me some more confidence then I thought it would. However, I never walked away feeling invincible. I continue to train in martial arts. It was nice to wail on a guy as hard as I could though for once in my life..... HAH!
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Old 04-30-2009, 11:33 AM   #37
Marc Abrams
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Re: Bad Advice and Self Defense

Quote:
Ashley Carter wrote: View Post
I took a RAD class (if I remember it correctly). I learned some valuable things in there. They taught things like: kick to groin, palm heel to face/nose, hammer fist to top of head, how to punch various ways, choke breaks (standing and laying down) along with a few other things. In the end, 3 guys dressed up in the red suits and we had to simulate some situations. Surprisingly, it was more realistic to me then I thought. It did give me some more confidence then I thought it would. However, I never walked away feeling invincible. I continue to train in martial arts. It was nice to wail on a guy as hard as I could though for once in my life..... HAH!
Ashley:

The most valuable things that you can learn are how to properly prepare to be in certain environments, remaining alert and aware of your surroundings at all times (NO IPOD or cellphone oblivion), how to have ready access to and properly utilize self-protection and self-defense tools.

If you have to be at the point of hand-to-hand defense, the odds are definitely NOT in your favor. You will reactively utilize the skills that you practice the most. Hopefully, those would serve you well in the worst-case-scenario. The skill sets that you mentioned have a finite window in which they will work effectively in. If your initial blow does not do the trick, pray that the assailant is not that much bigger, stronger, and more furious at you.

Train Hard, Stay Safe and Always Remain Alert

Marc Abrams
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Old 04-30-2009, 11:46 AM   #38
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Bad Advice and Self Defense

Mark's cautions are good, but I have to admit I like the idea of the padded suit...it gives a person a chance to really see how hard it is to go all out, how tiring it is, and how easy it is to get encumbered trying to take someone out. Gotta try that one of these days...I've seen it done, but never participated.

Best,
Ron

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Old 04-30-2009, 01:43 PM   #39
Marc Abrams
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Re: Bad Advice and Self Defense

Ron:

You are right! That type of training is some of the most effective training available for self-defense courses, particularly for women. That being said, the cautionary notes that typically do follow those courses are as follows:

1) What we know about the learned behaviors is that there is a steady drop off in learned behaviors unless the skills/behaviors are practiced on a regular basis. Most people do not take yearly refresher courses (psych. of learning would suggest monthly refresher experiences). If you hurt a person without disabling them (or even worse) and the person is good and angry, then there is a very big problem that know has to be addressed, particularly since that person is now anticipating a fight.

2) If you are caught unaware and/or unable to respond appropriately (a women listening to an i-pod, wearing high heels and both hands are filled with handbags, shopping bags.....) then the odds of that person successfully fighting her way out of that encounter are very small.

It is very important for people to remember (or even research) the psychology of the aggressor. These perp.s hunt for an easy prey. They do not look to assault a woman who is aware of her surroundings and appears to be a "difficult target." Victims are typically chosen because they stand out in a bad way from the environment, are clearly unaware of what is going on around them, and seem like an easy mark. That is why simple preventive/protective measures are so important.

As an interesting aside, my wife started Aikido for the following reason. About 19 years ago, she was walking in NYC (she works in the city) and was wearing a gold chain necklace (she rarely wears that kind of jewelry). She stands about 4'11". A large African-American (about 6'2") ripped the chain off of her neck and started to run away. She took off after him yelling at him! She chased him for several blocks. A fire chief doing an inspection of a building saw what was happening and radioed his men to help her out. They joined the chase and this tired guy finally got taken down by an undercover cop. My wife was asked what she would have done had this perp. stopped and moved towards her in an aggressive manner. She had NO good answer and realized she needed to learn something! She appeared to be an easy mark (no pun intended!), but her response helped in getting this person put behind bars for several years without her getting hurt! When this guy first walked by her, she recognized that the guy was casing her and quickly dismissed that information rather than act in a protective manner. She was lucky and learned from that incident.

Marc Abrams
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Old 04-30-2009, 02:08 PM   #40
lbb
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Re: Bad Advice and Self Defense

Marc, does it matter that the guy who snatched your wife's chain was African-American?
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Old 04-30-2009, 02:15 PM   #41
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Bad Advice and Self Defense

Yikes!

I remember some relatively short time ago 3 young hispanic guys tried to rob my Dad as he was escorting my great Aunt out of a bank. One came behind and squirted something on his jacket, pretending a bird had shat on him. When he tried to get my Dad to take his jacket off (ostensibly to wipe it off for him) my Dad went into a boxing stance (he used to box) and the next thing you know a 75 or so old man is chasing 3 young guys down the street!

They saw the target wasn't going to be easy, and took off in a car.

Those are the lucky ones, your wife and my dad.

The unlucky ones get shot!

Be safe out there...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 04-30-2009, 02:17 PM   #42
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Bad Advice and Self Defense

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Marc, does it matter that the guy who snatched your wife's chain was African-American?
Or that the guys who accosted my dad and aunt were hispanic?

It doesn't, it's just a description of what happened.

Sometimes to smoke a cigar...etc, etc, etc.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 04-30-2009, 02:25 PM   #43
Marc Abrams
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Re: Bad Advice and Self Defense

Mary:

It matters only to the point that I was being accurate in my descriptions. I am not a bigot, racist, gender-stereotyper, or politically-correct person.

I am a vertically-challenged (politically-correct term for a midget . I am not of course- just 5' 5"), Jewish, married father/grandfather who sometimes suffers from athletes-foot-in-the-mouth disease. In this great democracy that we have, you can infer anything about me from my comments. Of course, I maintain the right to agree or not agree with them.

Marc Abrams
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Old 04-30-2009, 03:53 PM   #44
Howard Popkin
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Re: Bad Advice and Self Defense

I can vouch for Marc....he is an equal opportunity abuser I have been on the end of many of his verbal assaults......

You know, a famous Cardacian (Yes, I'm a bit of a Trekkie) once said...(as he nursed his horrible wounds....obviously been jumped a many people) "ah yes, but my bruises will heal, but the sarcastic blow that I have dealt them....emotional scars can last a lifetime ! "

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Old 04-30-2009, 04:09 PM   #45
Marc Abrams
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Re: Bad Advice and Self Defense

Quote:
Howard Popkin wrote: View Post
I can vouch for Marc....he is an equal opportunity abuser I have been on the end of many of his verbal assaults......

You know, a famous Cardacian (Yes, I'm a bit of a Trekkie) once said...(as he nursed his horrible wounds....obviously been jumped a many people) "ah yes, but my bruises will heal, but the sarcastic blow that I have dealt them....emotional scars can last a lifetime ! "

Howie My Darling!

Nothing but Kisses for You!!!!

Marc Abrams
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Old 04-30-2009, 06:46 PM   #46
lbb
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Re: Bad Advice and Self Defense

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Mary:

It matters only to the point that I was being accurate in my descriptions. I am not a bigot, racist, gender-stereotyper, or politically-correct person.
Do you make note of the race of every person you talk about? Look back at what you wrote: if the chain-snatcher had been white, do you think you would have written "a 6 foot 2 white man"?
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Old 04-30-2009, 08:13 PM   #47
Marc Abrams
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Re: Bad Advice and Self Defense

Mary:

The answer to your question is "Yes." If it had been a 6'2" WHITE man, I would have described it as that.

If it had been a 6'2" albino dwarf, transexual with a lisp, I would have described it as such.

Attention to detail is critical to what I do for a living (which supports my being able to run a dojo). You seem intent upon looking for an evil that is not there. If you were to actually try and get to know me, you would be laughing with me at what you are trying to distort things to be.

Marc Abrams
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Old 04-30-2009, 10:17 PM   #48
eyrie
 
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Re: Bad Advice and Self Defense

FWIW, I don't think Marc made the comment in any context - at least, I didn't read it that way.

And I would agree with Marc, attention to detail in such situations, and generally, is critical - especially if you have to describe the perpertrator to the police after the fact; things like height, weight, hair color, eye-color, clothing worn, distinguishing marks, tattoos, characteristics, speech patterns, etc. - anything that could positively identify the perp and assist with police investigations.

Ignatius
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Old 05-01-2009, 07:43 AM   #49
lbb
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Re: Bad Advice and Self Defense

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
The answer to your question is "Yes." If it had been a 6'2" WHITE man, I would have described it as that.

If it had been a 6'2" albino dwarf, transexual with a lisp, I would have described it as such.

Attention to detail is critical to what I do for a living (which supports my being able to run a dojo). You seem intent upon looking for an evil that is not there. If you were to actually try and get to know me, you would be laughing with me at what you are trying to distort things to be.
Marc,

I'm not trying to distort anything. In my experience, it's quite unusual for the race of a white person to be noted anywhere except perhaps on a police blotter, while it's much more common that someone will make a point (particularly when speaking of a criminal) of noting that someone was African-American or Hispanic. That's all.
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Old 05-01-2009, 10:46 AM   #50
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Re: Bad Advice and Self Defense

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Well the thing about attacks is that you usually can't run from them effectively so you have to deal with them. In many respects the "rule of 21" applies for most women that are attacked.
This is simply incorrect. If you are preaching this then you are putting anybody who listens to you in danger unnecessarily. You are talking about some kind of fantasy attack situation which is incredibly rare, fairly avoidable and if it should ever come to it, would not be prevented by any self-defense technique that she can learn without putting the woman in more danger than it prevents. Let's talk for a second about rape/sexual assault, since this is very woman-specific. Well, let's talk statistics for a moment: the vast majority of rapes are acquaintance rapes (80% or so). You are talking about a cornered woman where the man has "closed on her", when four out of five attacks do not happen in any way even approaching the fantasy that you have in mind. The fact is that most rape situations are escapable, as long as
A) The woman realizes that she is in danger early
B) She is determined to escape the danger
C) She does not feel compelled to handle the situation on her own
If there is only one thing that women should be taught in self-protection it is situational awareness: recognizing when you are in danger so you can escape it. This is really, really obvious when you consider acquaintance rape. The situation is not sudden, it is a process leading up to the attack. Whether the process takes minutes or months, the situation is not out-of-the-blue. The warning signs are there, but they are not seen, ignored or the woman decides to try to handle it on her own.

Even in stranger-rape, situational awareness will get a woman out of the vast majority of scenarios. This is because rape cannot happen when there are other people around. This means that if a woman can "call in the cavalry", the possibility of an attack all but disappears. A rapist who tries to "ply his trade" in the middle of a crowd will be dragged off and strung up by his testicles in short order. No criminal (unless he is absolutely insane) is even going to attempt this and the attack would fail anyway. Women should be taught to identify potentially dangerous situations and act on them: if she is entering an area where help is out of earshot or more than 30s away, where a single person or a group is loitering she is in real danger. More importantly, women should be taught not to ignore the alarm bells and red flags when they are going off. Somewhat more surprising is that this even needs to be said. You'd really be surprised how many victims knew that something wrong with a situation and walked into it anyway, assuming that everything would just sort itself out. If you feel uneasy walking into a mostly-deserted parking lot, then don't! Turn back and get back to a crowd. The false confidence she can simply deal with an attack on her own if it happens is actually a real danger to the woman here.

Now let's humor your incredibly hypothetical jump-out-of-the-bushes cornered stranger attack scenario. You are suggesting that in such situations the advisable tactic is to attempt to out-viscious, out-anger or out-technique such an attacker (the only possible ways you could realistically have an advantage). Well, let's look at such an attacker for a second. Nobody, short of being completely deranged willingly initiates violence if he believes that there is a possibility he could lose. In his mind he will be holding all the cards, because he is either very big and strong, heavily armed, unbelievably sadistic and viscious or with a group of friends. Mostly likely some combination of all the above. In such a situation, you will be facing incredibly bad odds. Not a single unarmed attacker. Not a weak little guy making a feeble attempt to grab you. A group of big strong mean guys holding knives. Picture that for a second and try to imagine a small woman using her Aikido/Jujitsu/Karate/Wing Chun skills to successfully fight them off. The goal of such an attacker is not to fight with you, it is to overwhelm you. If there is a way for such an attacker to gain an advantage, he will be using it.

Teaching women skills that will only help them if they have somehow managed to get themselves cornered (in a way that probably wouldn't have happened if her situational awareness were better) by a stupid and completely incompetent attacker does not strike me as a valuable thing to do. Far from being common as you suggest, these attacks simply do not tend to happen. Telling women that what you are teaching will keep them safe in such a situation might have the benefit of giving them confidence and making them feel empowered, but God help them if they ever really get attacked.
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