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Old 06-06-2005, 09:33 PM   #76
Bronson
 
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

So has there ever been a MMA team fight? That would be cool. Six guys, three to a team, all going at it at the same time...sweeeet! OH, you know what else would be cool? If you put 5 or 6 (or 30) guys in the ring at the same time and it was every-man-for-himself....I'd pay to see that. Better yet, give them melee weapons...now that's entertainment

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 06-07-2005, 02:18 AM   #77
Red Beetle
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Quote:
Michael Neal]Capital Jiu Jitsu in Alexandria, Virginia
I have always heard good things about this place.


Quote:
The guys you refer to are likely wrestlers with many years experiece and likely have Judo training as well, you mentioned the instructor had Judo training. So if I did spar them I would not be going against pure Jiu Jitsu, I would be fighting MMA fighters.
Brazilian Jiu-jitsu guys will not often stand upright as in classical Kodokan Judo. They skew their stance (stagger stance) and lower their levels (jigo-hontai). This is considered a defensive posture in classical Judo. The Jiu-jitsu guys know that this makes it harder to enter in general, and to throw front in particular (usually you have to square if the guy is staggered before throwing front). The guys I refer to are aggressive, and attempt to score at each level of the game. If you can get some tapes of Murilio Bustamonte, you might see some of the Jiu-jitsu takedown variations. They are typically high percentage takedowns, and if you miss, your not in too bad of position.

Quote:
You can't have it both ways, you say that people who win MMA matches using Judo are not true Judoka since they crosstrain. Then you have Jiu Jitsu guys who cross train many styles and then claim it is Gracie Jiu Jitsu. No it is MMA, and I will readily admit that someone who trains MMA is likely a better fighter than me, no question.
Think back to before the UFC ever come on TV. Before 1992. Before the average person ever heard of Gracie Jiu-jitsu in this country, there was guys training specifically for Olympic Judo. Guys such as Ben Spijker (this is the Judo guy Renzo stepped on in the World Combat Championships). Gracie Jiu-jitsu was combat effective before UFC and mixed martial arts. Royce demonstrated this with clarity.

Judo guys recognized most of what Royce was doing to win matches. What they did not recognize was how Royce was making these boxers, kick-boxers, shoot-fighters, and karate guys miss their strikes. I can't tell you how many Judo guys I have heard say, "Wow, look how he keeps that guy from hitting him when he has him in the guard!" I remember asking a Korean Judo instructor what the difference between Judo and Gracie Jiu-jitsu was (this was pre-UFC....he had got a hold of a Gracie In Action tape). The guy told me, "It is a modified version of Judo. They have changed Judo, in my opinion, so that they can fight anyone and win. Just like a fight, anyone can hit at any time while they are trying to wrestle them, and it can be really brutal to watch."


Quote:
Judo is designed for Gi or No Gi, it does not matter, you just have to alter the grip
If this were true, then you would see plenty of guys who have done Judo applying for college wrestling scholarships and getting them, based upon years of Judo growing up. What would really happen though is when they went to a try out for the team they would get their butt schooled on no-gi takedown wrestling. I used to wrestle a guy from Carson-Newman College. Carson-Newman is not Iowa, but they got a wrestling team, and this guy was on it. He was not their best guy by far. He slightly outweighed me, was a bit stronger, but we rolled often. Brother, if he had a gi on, and I could get a grip, then he would bitch, but he didn't have a gi on.....look out. I had to learn a considerable amount of folk-style, free-style, and Greco-Roman wrestling before I could be effective against them. If you don't know their game, then you will get whipped.

Just go to this web-site (www.championshipproductions.com) and see how much info is available on western wrestling, then compare it to instructional material available on Judo. Judo is way behind.
College wrestling teams and coaches know all about the wrestling programs of the other schools they compete against. They share info freely and often between schools. You will not see Jimmy Pedro on Real Pro Wrestling anytime soon.
Another reason, I believe, is because western wrestling is not considered mystical, magical, does not rely on magic energy (ki), and has not in the past been kept within secret circles. Coaches tend to teach as much as they can, while traditional senseis are slow to release "secrets", and look for special people to show them to.
Finally, western wrestling has an enormous field of competition for their athletes to practice and learn with. This is not the case with Judo in this country. This country sucks at Judo. The best we have produced was a two time bronze medalist.

Quote:
. I am not sure what your point is about the front headlock, it is an effective technique, but that does not mean Judo techniques are not
The front-headlock is not found in Judo or traditional Jiu-jitsu. It is a hold that was designed by Western wrestlers who did not wear a kimono. Asian styles stand upright, but western styles change levels. This is why the front-headlock was developed. Learn this hold and its set ups, then you can mess up your Judo buddies just for meanness. So, the point of bringing up the front-headlock is to give you an example of the complete difference between Judo and western no-gi wrestling.

Just consider how advanced the Double-leg is in wrestling as compared to that piss poor Judo version called Morote-gari. Modern Judo has been trying to implement more wrestling skills into their program, but old traditional Judo retards refuse to admit that someone else may have a better technique of attack. Consider the Low-level-Single. This is a wrestling takedown that is so different from anything in Judo that you just can't imagine.
John Smith has a nice instructional out on this one. Consider the arm-spin. The arm-spin is a dynamic throw that can be done from multiple tie ups. Kurt Angle was super fast at this throw. Check out his Gold medal match in the Olympics.

Maybe Mike Swain will put out the first NO-GI Judo Instructional DVDs. I'm sure his bronze medalist's no-gi takedown tactics would be tops over someone like Cael Sanderson.


Quote:
All I was saying was that I took a grip as in koshigaruma, not that koshigaruma was a grip in itself.
I knew what you were talking about. I was just giving you a hard time. The 67 throws are named after the Kake, not the Tsukuri, or the Kazushi. Don't be intimidated by the terminology. When you start a new subject, you have to master the terms. The same would apply if you were to go to Law School, or a Physics class.
Plus, you sound cool when you can tell someone that you did a Sasae-Tsurikomi-Ashi, then went to Yoko-shiho-Gatame, and from there switched to Tate-shiho-gatame, and finally applied Sankaku-jime when the guy rolled out.


Quote:
We don't learn the grips by the names you have said here, we just do them. Just because I don't know the name of the grip does not mean I don't know what I am talking about.
Your right.
The United States Judo Federation has a tape called: Get A Grip
It is not a beautiful piece of production, but it goes over most of the grips in modern Judo and gives you the names and alternate names. It shows competition examples with each grip. It is only about $20.00 so don't be cheap. You need this tape.

Quote:
I am curious, what is your rank in Judo and what organization was it issued by?
I'm just a little old Shodan.
I went black in a Korean Judo school. They are rougher than most Japanese Judo schools. The one I was in was really rough. It was like the Cobra Kai school on the Karate Kid movie. They didn't run around and beat everybody up like the movie, but you would often hear things like, "Pain does not exist in this dojo." "You want to get off the mat and get a drink of water? Yes, go home and get a drink, and don't come back.", "Your just bleeding, you can still wrestle, so what is your problem?" He didn't have many students.
I am in the U.S.J.F., and a member of Shufu-Yudanshakai.

Quote:
Because I have never heard anyone test or require Judoka to know the names of the grips.
The United States Judo Association has a Syllabus which I highly recommend that YOU get a copy of. They explain in outline form what each lower and Dan belt should know. You will see that they require you to know more and more grips as you progress. The syllabus is about $25.00.


Quote:
Your place sounds great
You'd like it.
If there was a better place to train Judo at in my area, then I would be there.


Red Beetle
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Old 06-07-2005, 01:50 PM   #78
L. Camejo
 
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
Yea but Judo's "take it to the ground strategy" involves puttting the attacker on the ground forcefully while remaining standing.
So does Aikido, Jujutsu and a few other arts - what's your point? When I said "take it to the ground" I meant grappling or striking while on the ground, not putting the guy there while remaining standing, which would be a takedown or throw. My fault for not clarifying enough I guess.

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
What happens to someone who does not train any newaza at all when they find themselves on the ground, multiple attakers or not? They are then in serious trouble. Somoene skilled in newaza is better able to get to their feet quick, whether it be escaping a pin, dislocating arms, moving to a better psotion to stand etc.
Very true. But like you said, deliberately going into newaza in a multi attack situation is just stupid. Having training in ne waza will increase one's chances if such a situation were unavoidable however.

Now that I think about it though, Red may have a point regarding those Judoka who train only for competition and as a result may lack training in ma ai, timing, entering and setting up good tsukuri against a good striking attack if all they train from is the typical shiai grip positions.

Again, like any other single martial method, there are limits to its range. In the end, for unarmed or lightly armed self defence one needs to be capable in as many range options as possible to ensure some degree of overall effectiveness, not to mention study and appreciate the other, non-technical aspects of SD.

Just a few thoughts.
LC

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Old 06-07-2005, 03:19 PM   #79
Michael Neal
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Red Beetle, I think we agree on many things but it just seems you have preference for wrestling and I have a preference for Judo. Wrestling has just as many limitations as Judo has. Just about every wrestler that I have sparred with in Judo was very vulnerable to chokes, armbars, and many throws as well. The bent over wrestling posture you described above does not work very well in my experience, I usually just drag them down and take their back for a choke. It is not until the wrestler crosstrains in BJJ or Judo do they learn how to overcome these weakeneses. So to be perfectly honest, I think pure Judo is much more prepared to deal with MMA than pure wrestling.

Karo, Fedor, Yoshida, etc. all have used Judo effectively in MMA on opponents not wearing a GI, they just use a different grip. Yes they crosstrained in striking and such but they still use 100% pure Judo all the time.
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Old 06-07-2005, 03:34 PM   #80
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Quote:
So does Aikido, Jujutsu and a few other arts - what's your point?
Larry you said Judo was useless for self defense because they fight on the ground, my response was that Judo's strategy is not to drag someone to the ground to roll around with them. Even Judo competition rules stress strong throws over newaza. This is why I like it better than BJJ because I would prefer to remain standing if possible. Not every situation is a multiple attacker one and even then it is good to know newaza.

Quote:
Now that I think about it though, Red may have a point regarding those Judoka who train only for competition and as a result may lack training in ma ai, timing, entering and setting up good tsukuri against a good striking attack if all they train from is the typical shiai grip positions
Judoka that train only for competition are at much less of a disadvantage than those martial artists who do no competition or hard randori on a regular basis. Competition is perfect for developing all of those things you described, timing, distance, entering etc. I am not sure you have experienced much Judo if you can't see that. Have you ever done randori against a strong grip fighter? Their grips are more like realistic strikes than you see in many Aikido classes.
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Old 06-07-2005, 03:52 PM   #81
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

I've got a video of one of my wrestlers with a 2 hour block of instruction in BJJ soundly defeating a 3 dan in judo, and several other guys in a BJJ match. Including a 6 foot 5, 310 pounder. (non judo, but MMA background).

I have beat this guy a few times, but he learns quickly and you never get him twice with the same move.

I'd have to say generally judo should be more prepared than wrestling in MMA, but did not find it to be the case this time around.

When I have time and if I can figure out how, i'll have to edit the video down to an acceptable size to post. If nothing else it is interesting to watch.

Oh yea, explained the rule to the guy just prior to the match and I had to show him how to wear a gi and tie his belt since he had never worn one!
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Old 06-07-2005, 04:08 PM   #82
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

I don't doubt it, I would love to see the video. What was his background in wrestling?

I saw a wrestler enter a Judo competition as a white belt and leave as a brown after wiping the floor with everyone. He was an elite level wrestler though.

Last edited by Michael Neal : 06-07-2005 at 04:10 PM.
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Old 06-07-2005, 06:19 PM   #83
Pankration90
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Quote:
Red Beetle wrote:
Maybe Mike Swain will put out the first NO-GI Judo Instructional DVDs. I'm sure his bronze medalist's no-gi takedown tactics would be tops over someone like Cael Sanderson.
Karo Parisyan already has a set out about no-gi judo (using wrestling grips).
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Old 06-07-2005, 06:38 PM   #84
L. Camejo
 
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
Larry you said Judo was useless for self defense because they fight on the ground
Michael, please read the following slowly:

Quote:
If I were to believe my own experiences alone I'd say that BJJ, Judo and any ground grappling art was useless for real world self defence...

However I'd be wrong in assuming that ground grappling arts were useless for self defence simply from those experiences.
I did not say that Judo was useless for self defence. I said that if I went by my own self defence experiences alone I'd assume that, but I'd actually be wrong. I do some Judo and BJJ as well as a Japanese Jujutsu-based system (non-koryu), so I know there is an area in which they work quite well for SD.

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
Judoka that train only for competition are at much less of a disadvantage than those martial artists who do no competition or hard randori on a regular basis. Competition is perfect for developing all of those things you described, timing, distance, entering etc. I am not sure you have experienced much Judo if you can't see that. Have you ever done randori against a strong grip fighter? Their grips are more like realistic strikes than you see in many Aikido classes.
I agree Michael. I never said that folks who don't train for competition have an advantage over those folks who do hard randori on a regular bassis. You may have misread my last post entirely it seems.

As far as the grips of strong grip fighters relating to realistic strikes, I'd have to say you may have limited exposure to quality effective striking training if you'd equate their "jab, snatch and clinch" sort of attacks with a serious percussive strike.

Interesting concept though. It may be just that I have not seen an exceptional "strong grip fighter" in my experience, which is very possible.

Gambatte.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
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Old 06-08-2005, 06:19 AM   #85
mj
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Thread drift:

Gripping is an art in itself. The strength of grip used by a competition fighter on its own is enough to negate almost anything that an untrained person could probably do - in the same way that Iwama stylists work ferociously on their 'grabbing' skills but to a higher degree.

However at the base level Judo generally has one basic fault - a lack of defence against head striking (headbutts are very common but constant strikes to the head can put someone on the back foot).

And Aikido generally has a major fault in the lack of dynamic resistance.

This is why cross training, communication and threads like this are in the main helpful. We all have our own obsessions, but it is all too easy to become transfixed on small things when large things go un-noticed. And in the case of Aikido there are so many schools that a determined practioner can find these faults and overcome them, but this requires the same kind of open-mindedness that it takes to appreciate Judo/Karate/BJJ/et al.

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Old 06-08-2005, 11:31 AM   #86
Michael Neal
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Mark, I think I can finally agree on everything you just said its a miracle!
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Old 03-02-2006, 07:38 PM   #87
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote:
While the breakfalls in judo are very effective in what they do, they don't really "flow/accept/yield" into the mat, esp side breakfall.

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/anima...lue/ukemi3.gif

Does anyone have any advice on some kind of combo judo/aikido side ukemi that would result in less "splat" AND would work if thrown with a dynamic judo throw?
I think judo falls "accept/yield" to the mat
I wouldn't try to somehow avoid the judo hard fall. If you're off just a bit, you could get hurt. Just try to make your judo falls better!! If someone puts a "real" (tournament.... I want the point ) throw on you, they won't let go and will make you take a very hard fall!!

Nathan Snow
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Old 03-28-2006, 02:21 PM   #88
billybob
 
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Shiho,

I appreciate your comparison of aikido training to judo training. I honestly can not perceive a difference between well done aikido technique and well done judo technique.

For example: http://www.judoinfo.com/video4.htm click on Kyuzo Mifune Sumi Otoshi

The 'gentle way' saved my life and the lives of my parents, but that is a very personal story.

I will share from my heart that I miss judo randori; the feeling of freedom during good ukemi, and moreso the joy of turning out of big throws and throwing partner entirely with their energy is something I yearn to feel again.

David
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Old 03-28-2006, 10:54 PM   #89
kaishaku
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

I've been training in BJJ for a few weeks. A lot of people on here seem to post comments like, "Oh, well, I trained with some [whatever] guys and they couldn't hold a candle to my irimi-nage" or "After an hour of wrestling practice I defeated a judo shihan!" but unfortunately I have not been able to so easily transfer my knowledge. On the other hand I've already learned a lot of valuable information on escaping from bad positions. I haven't asked, "So, what do you do if you're attacked by TWO guys?" yet but I'm sure they'll have a really interesting answer.

A large emphasis is placed on sport/competition. I'm not sure how well I'll do with all this because I think I may lack the requisite aggressiveness. Struggling and squirming to put someone in a chokehold seems oddly undignified. In the meantime I only attend the "Fundamentals" class, though, and have learned a lot of great information about takedowns and positions.
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Old 03-29-2006, 09:55 AM   #90
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

FWIW when I started judo in mid 1970's as a skinny asthmatic child of 13 :P

my instructors felt that they would train us 'the old way'. This meant that they eschewed competition style training, and the 'new' scoring system allowing 1/4 and 1/2 points. This meant that the russle-tussle type training simply wasn't done. We focused on making full point or half point throws. (For you Ju Jitsu people, god bless you, and, in my opinion 'full point' equals "kill" - change a judo throw just a little, at that level of control, and uke gets carried off and buried).

Aikido seems to be searching for its identity now that our charismatic Founder has passed. I think perhaps Judo, at least how it is usually done in the U.S., made a mistake focusing on competition, and not on the teachings of their charismatic founder - Dr. Jigoro Kano.

Rumination T. Cornpone (david)
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Old 03-29-2006, 11:10 AM   #91
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

I don't think aikido is searching for it's identity as much as some aikidoka are searching for their's. I believe this is a normal course of progression in aikido and a big part of the process, without it, how do you grow?

I spend about 90% of my time these days focusing on BJJ and Army Combatives because of my job, I will tell you the more time I spend studying this stuff, the more I find myself referring to the basic principles in aikido. that is, slow down, good technique, concentrate on your center, use your hips, good posture.

I was looking at my above post (#81) that I wrote almost a year ago, that same wrestler a year ago...I just got back from working with him. He has become better, but right now we are spending our time doing what I just said, telling him to slow down, etc....

He says it feels weird not using his speed and strength, but that he is starting to get the whole thing. Entering that void can be very, very scary. It takes a special person willing to let go and trust the instructor and to deal with the feeling of the void!

He says he can now see things happening, they aren't as fast, and he is gaining dominance much quicker, and can anticipate what is going to happen next much better!

Have a good day!
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Old 04-21-2009, 02:24 AM   #92
Minh Nguyen
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Quote:
Edward Karaa wrote: View Post
Technically, I believe that judo and aikido could not be more different because they are based on completely different concepts. My previous judo experience has helped me a lot in my aikido progression in the beginning, but it soon became a hindrance when I reached somewhat a higher level.

I wouldn't recommend doing both though. The natural progression would be to start in judo and then move to aikido. Doing the opposite doesn't seem very logical to me.

Cheers,
Can I practice Jujitsu and Aikido at the same time? My sensei teaches both Jujitsu and Aikido. The Jujitsu class is completely self defense. There is randori, but no competition.

Do you think I can do both arts at the same time?
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Old 04-21-2009, 10:52 AM   #93
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Quote:
Minh Nguyen wrote: View Post
Can I practice Jujitsu and Aikido at the same time? My sensei teaches both Jujitsu and Aikido. The Jujitsu class is completely self defense. There is randori, but no competition.

Do you think I can do both arts at the same time?
I think so, and getting them from the same senseil eliminates the questions of potential scheduling conflicts between different instructors.

At the end of the day, it's all about what works for you. If you want to do both, do it!

"I am not a big fat panda. I am the big fat panda." --Po, Kung Fu Panda
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Old 04-21-2009, 01:09 PM   #94
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Quote:
Minh Nguyen wrote: View Post
Can I practice Jujitsu and Aikido at the same time? My sensei teaches both Jujitsu and Aikido. The Jujitsu class is completely self defense. There is randori, but no competition.

Do you think I can do both arts at the same time?
As long as you do one of them with one eye closed!
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Old 04-21-2009, 04:02 PM   #95
DonMagee
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Quote:
Minh Nguyen wrote: View Post
Can I practice Jujitsu and Aikido at the same time? My sensei teaches both Jujitsu and Aikido. The Jujitsu class is completely self defense. There is randori, but no competition.

Do you think I can do both arts at the same time?
If you are practicing them both for self defense, then they are just different training methods and tactics for self defense. That means just like how you can learn classical and rock guitar at the same time, you can also learn both of these.

If one is for self defense, and the other is not, then the question is the same as asking if you can practice both jiujitsu and soccer without conflict as they are two different physical things with different goals.

So I guess I'm saying yes you can. With one warning. When learning a new physical skill, you really need to dedicate 6 or more hours a week to it to truly build skill in my opinion. But if you have the time, then why not.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 04-22-2009, 02:30 PM   #96
James Wyatt
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Find a good judo teacher whom can teach traditional kodokan judo and the katas and you will be amazed at the similarity with aikido. The principles are the same
Ennjoy both
James
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Old 04-25-2009, 12:04 PM   #97
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Just visited the site because of a thread started on a judo site (possibly to create conflict between judo and aikido practitioners), and noted this thread. Just a quick point from an old time judo and wrestling instructor who also teaches at a MMA club: no one does pure judo (or pure BJJ or pure boxing or pure aikido or pure anything) in MMA. MMA is a sport, and to do well in it you're going to have a good base in many aspects of grappling, throwing, and striking - no traditional art covers it.

So while the most successful judoka in MMA is Fedor Emelianko (he was on the Russian national judo team and placed in several international judo tournaments, giving him much better judo credentials than say Karo), judo/sambo is clearly only one part of what he does in MMA. The same is true for Karo and everyone else mentioned - they all cross train. Most discussions of judo (or any style) in MMA are pointless because in fact its all become part of the general toolkit, and the people chosen as "representatives" of a style are in fact representatives of many styles.

In the particular case of Yoshida vs Gardner, you had two individuals competing, neither of which should have been in the ring. Yoshida won his Olympic gold in 1992 fighting under 173 pounds, by the time he started MMA he was 50 pounds overweight and unable to win in international judo (possibly simply because he was in fact 50 pounds overweight and correspondingly out of shape). Rulon Gardner won in the super heavy (over 265 pound( division in 2000, but was too gentle a soul to become effective in the striking, which is why he never fought again in MMA - he didn't like punching people, and you cannot compete in MMA without doing so at least some of the time.

As for aikido and judo, they're more complimentary than anything else, in that they have similar principles working on different ranges - aikido at arms length and more, judo at clinching range. Both have their pluses and minuses, but if I were to teach someone self-defense I wouldn't start with either of them (or any unarmed art). Basic street sense (situations to avoid), and then if necessary weapons training is far more practical and easy to pick up for anyone. A person can be effective with a gun, knife, or stick in a day, and if we're talking about real self-defense rather than just going to the bar to pick fights, that is what they should be looking at.

We regularly tell people who start MMA, judo or wrestling for self-defense that since at least local police statistics say most self-defense situations involve multiple armed attackers (knives or firearms being most common) that they'd be much better off learning to use weapons than any unarmed art. If you can seriously avoid being swarmed or shot by five or more fit young men with knives, guns and baseball bats, you should be playing in the NFL. Otherwise you'll need a weapon yourself - and even then only if there is no other option. It only takes one bullet to change a successful defense into an untimely funeral.

Finally, though aikido isn't mentioned much in either judo or MMA circles (no more than I expect judo is mentioned in aikido circles), when it comes up its usually with respect for its footwork, posture, and wrist locks (which is all most of us know about it). The only place I've seen aikido put down as ineffective is on internet sites, and as always on the net its probably an attempt by trolls to create an argument.

Anyway, sorry for interfering with your thread, I just think much of the conflict between styles found in the net are artificial. I'll leave you in peace now.

Last edited by georgejjr : 04-25-2009 at 12:13 PM.
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Old 04-26-2009, 04:07 AM   #98
philippe willaume
 
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Quote:
Minh Nguyen wrote: View Post
Can I practice Jujitsu and Aikido at the same time? My sensei teaches both Jujitsu and Aikido. The Jujitsu class is completely self defense. There is randori, but no competition.

Do you think I can do both arts at the same time?
You know as long it remains between consenting adults and that no child or animal are being hurt in the practice of the activity, you can pretty much do as you like.

You just need to be aware of what are the paradigm of each are and how the compare to what you want to achieve.
That being said some aikidos are naturally close to JJ or judo and some jj are quite close to aikido. Since you instructor practice both it is likely that you are in a case like that anyway.

phil

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Old 04-26-2009, 04:44 AM   #99
salim
Location: Greensboro North Carolina
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Quote:
George Jones wrote: View Post
Just visited the site because of a thread started on a judo site (possibly to create conflict between judo and aikido practitioners), and noted this thread. Just a quick point from an old time judo and wrestling instructor who also teaches at a MMA club: no one does pure judo (or pure BJJ or pure boxing or pure aikido or pure anything) in MMA. MMA is a sport, and to do well in it you're going to have a good base in many aspects of grappling, throwing, and striking - no traditional art covers it.

So while the most successful judoka in MMA is Fedor Emelianko (he was on the Russian national judo team and placed in several international judo tournaments, giving him much better judo credentials than say Karo), judo/sambo is clearly only one part of what he does in MMA. The same is true for Karo and everyone else mentioned - they all cross train. Most discussions of judo (or any style) in MMA are pointless because in fact its all become part of the general toolkit, and the people chosen as "representatives" of a style are in fact representatives of many styles.

In the particular case of Yoshida vs Gardner, you had two individuals competing, neither of which should have been in the ring. Yoshida won his Olympic gold in 1992 fighting under 173 pounds, by the time he started MMA he was 50 pounds overweight and unable to win in international judo (possibly simply because he was in fact 50 pounds overweight and correspondingly out of shape). Rulon Gardner won in the super heavy (over 265 pound( division in 2000, but was too gentle a soul to become effective in the striking, which is why he never fought again in MMA - he didn't like punching people, and you cannot compete in MMA without doing so at least some of the time.

As for aikido and judo, they're more complimentary than anything else, in that they have similar principles working on different ranges - aikido at arms length and more, judo at clinching range. Both have their pluses and minuses, but if I were to teach someone self-defense I wouldn't start with either of them (or any unarmed art). Basic street sense (situations to avoid), and then if necessary weapons training is far more practical and easy to pick up for anyone. A person can be effective with a gun, knife, or stick in a day, and if we're talking about real self-defense rather than just going to the bar to pick fights, that is what they should be looking at.

We regularly tell people who start MMA, judo or wrestling for self-defense that since at least local police statistics say most self-defense situations involve multiple armed attackers (knives or firearms being most common) that they'd be much better off learning to use weapons than any unarmed art. If you can seriously avoid being swarmed or shot by five or more fit young men with knives, guns and baseball bats, you should be playing in the NFL. Otherwise you'll need a weapon yourself - and even then only if there is no other option. It only takes one bullet to change a successful defense into an untimely funeral.

Finally, though aikido isn't mentioned much in either judo or MMA circles (no more than I expect judo is mentioned in aikido circles), when it comes up its usually with respect for its footwork, posture, and wrist locks (which is all most of us know about it). The only place I've seen aikido put down as ineffective is on internet sites, and as always on the net its probably an attempt by trolls to create an argument.

Anyway, sorry for interfering with your thread, I just think much of the conflict between styles found in the net are artificial. I'll leave you in peace now.
George,

Excellent points. I appreciate your honesty and practicalities. I hope you return often to Aikiweb. Your sense of reality regarding self defense is greatly appreciated.
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Old 04-26-2009, 11:00 AM   #100
Minh Nguyen
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Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Quote:
Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
You know as long it remains between consenting adults and that no child or animal are being hurt in the practice of the activity, you can pretty much do as you like.

You just need to be aware of what are the paradigm of each are and how the compare to what you want to achieve.
That being said some aikidos are naturally close to JJ or judo and some jj are quite close to aikido. Since you instructor practice both it is likely that you are in a case like that anyway.

phil
Thank you for your answer!
Since I will practice both arts simultaneously with the same amount of time, I think there may be a cross path. Do you think that I may mix techniques from Jujitsu in Aikido randori by any chance?
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