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Old 06-25-2002, 03:51 PM   #1
akiy
 
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Disagreeing with the Founder

Going through some of the older AikiWeb Polls here...

"Is it OK to disagree with the teachings of the founder, Morihei Ueshiba O-sensei?"

(Results here.)

What are your thoughts?

-- Jun

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Old 06-25-2002, 05:55 PM   #2
Choku Tsuki
 
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need more info

I think it's OK to not agree, as long as you never forget why, and keep those reasons near the surface. I try to never make up my mind when it's a grey area because I need more information.

In jury duty, they instruct the jurors to 'not talk about the case amongst yourselves until the judge says so.' That's because all the info is not in. Also, because the act of articulation means choosing words. And that choice will introduce a bias the instant those words are muttered.

For the record I disagree with OSensei in matters of religion [I'm an athiest]. For the technical side, all the info I need to decide is not in, not by a long shot.

--Chuck
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Old 06-25-2002, 06:26 PM   #3
Erik
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Re: Disagreeing with the Founder

Quote:
Originally posted by akiy
"Is it OK to disagree with the teachings of the founder, Morihei Ueshiba O-sensei?"
First, we'd have to agree on what they were. Fat chance of that happening.
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Old 06-26-2002, 01:01 PM   #4
SeiserL
 
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It is hard for me to disagree if I truly have very little understanding of what the founder truly said.

Its okay to disagree, but my guess is I just don't understand yet.

Until again,

Lynn

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 06-27-2002, 10:23 AM   #5
tedehara
 
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Disagreeing with the Founder

Quote:
Originally posted by Erik


First, we'd have to agree on what they were. Fat chance of that happening.
A Polite Golf Clap is heard from the Gallery

When O Sensei starts talking about purple smoke and dragons, I'm completely lost.

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
About Ki
About You
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Old 06-27-2002, 12:29 PM   #6
Bruce Baker
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Disagree with the founder ...

It is inevitable that children will disagree with adults or other generations that have come before, because of either lifestyles, changes in society, or life experiences being different.

If the founder throws you when you say he can not, your disagreement becomes a case of being mistaken not disagreement.

So, even disagreement can be changed to something else.

Or the case of two gentlemen claiming to be faster on the quick draw than the other, one of them was mistaken?

It is alright to disagree, so long as you have the proof to back it up, otherwise you were merely mistaken.
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Old 06-27-2002, 12:51 PM   #7
Lyle Bogin
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If O-Sensei spoke and expressed the aboslute (truth), then disagreeing would not be "OK" in the sense you are getting futher away from realizing the truth.

If it is impossible to consider the truth absolute, but rather relative, (and we still assume O-Sensei spoke the truth) than disagreement with O-Sensei may indicate that your path is leading to your own truth (since he spoke and expressed HIS truth only).

If we consider that O-Sensei was merely acting as an interpreter for the absolute truth, making his own mistakes and adding his own "selfness" in his expression, then disagreeing with him may bring us close to the truth than he ever was, be it absolute or relative. That seems "OK".

Sometimes disagreement is the best way to wind up in agreement. When you disagree with the conclusions of a martial artist, you must prove to yourself that you are justified in your disagreement. That process will let you know if you should accept or move on. And it is only through doing that we really learn...will agreement lead to the actual doing? To the depth of knolwedge that can only come through doubt, experimentation, failure, and discovery?
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Old 06-28-2002, 03:29 AM   #8
JJF
 
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Re: Disagreeing with the Founder

Quote:
Originally posted by tedehara

A Polite Golf Clap is heard from the Gallery

When O Sensei starts talking about purple smoke and dragons, I'm completely lost.
Hi Ted! Maybe you should check out the 'Getting High on the mat' thread in the 'Anonymous' Forum.... Someone there might be able to elaborate on THAT qoute (sorry - just kidding)

- Jørgen Jakob Friis

Inspiration - Aspiration - Perspiration
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Old 07-01-2002, 10:19 AM   #9
Bruce Baker
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O'Sensei's spiritual writings

If you read the writings of O'Sensei in Japanese and try to write them into english, they really don't make any sense at all.

John Stevens has taken many of the O'Sensei's writings and put them into a spiritual meaning that gains approval by most people who read the original text, or so it is endorsed in many of his books or translations.

Sometimes being shown, as is the case for many descriptions of Chinese techniques, becomes the clarity for the cryptic writings.

I am sure the founder was way out there when he had some of these visions of clarity, but they were all based on real physical techniques and training principles, not just abstract ideas or stories.

So if you see purple dragons, or jewels of mystery, they are no more cryptic than many of the sayings we have adopted in our own societies?

Read, study, ask questions ... I am sure many of those dragons will turn into techniques and practice as time goes on.
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