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Old 12-22-2008, 05:14 PM   #26
Dojo: West Wind Dojo Santa Monica California
Location: Malibu, California
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,295
Re: Kokyu

I sure won't let personalities get in the way of principles especially if they're shared in a courteous manner and with an open mind towards others experiance.

By the way there are plenty of forums where IMA is the focal point of the discussion.

William Hazen
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Old 12-22-2008, 05:23 PM   #27
Peter Goldsbury
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Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
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Re: Kokyu

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Yesterday a training partner pointed me to Nelson's "The Original Modern Reader's Japanese-English Character Dictionary: Classic Edition" (Tuttle Publishing, 2004 ISBN 0804819653, 9780804819657) entry about "kokyu".

In said entry kokyu is translated as: breath, respiration; knack, secret; tone, time; kokyu suru breathe.

(bold mine)

So he left me more confused as I usually am. If someone asks what i.e. kokyu nage means can I say it means "knack throw" or "secret throw" instead the usual "breath throw"?

Hello Demetrio,

This edition of Nelson is the old edition. It was revised and updated in 1997. The ISBN of the new edition is 0-8048-2036-8.

In any case, if you can cope with a dictionary like Nelson, you might want to consider a general Japanese dictionary, not a dictionary of kanji. Nelson is simply a list of many Chinese characters, with the readings that have occurred. It is not a general Japanese dictionary.

If you use a dictionary like the Kojien or the Kenkyusha New Japanese English Dictionary, you will see that こきゅうhas three main meanings: (a) breath; (2) coordination, teamwork; (3) having the knack, or knowing how to do something. There are many examples given, so that you can see how the term is actually used in modern Japanese.

There are many compounds given, all of which have to do with breathing, but kokyu-nage is not one of them. However, you cannot simply combine any one of the meanings of kokyu given in Nelson with nage and assume that this is what it could mean. It has a more specialized use.

As another example, take irimi, as in irimi-nage. Irimi is a compound of two characters: 入 and 身, but you will not find the combination in Nelson or any other general dictionary. So, what do you do to find the meaning of the word? Do you choose one of the meanings of iri and combine it with one of the meanings of mi? If so, you can find some bizarre combinations (like setting [of the sun in] a container).

By the way, if you have access to the Kojien, the reference to kokyu is on p.933 and for the Kenkyusha dictionary, there is a long entry on pp. 960-961.

Best wishes,

Last edited by Peter Goldsbury : 12-22-2008 at 05:25 PM.

P A Goldsbury
Hiroshima, Japan
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Old 12-22-2008, 06:14 PM   #28
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,254
Re: Kokyu

Thank you very much, professor Golsbury.

Merry Christmas.
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Old 12-22-2008, 10:01 PM   #29
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Location: St. Louis
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Re: Kokyu

William Hazen wrote: View Post
By the way there are plenty of forums where IMA is the focal point of the discussion.
But isn't this thread titled "Kokyu"?
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Old 12-22-2008, 11:05 PM   #30
Dojo: West Wind Dojo Santa Monica California
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Re: Kokyu

Adam Bauder wrote: View Post
But isn't this thread titled "Kokyu"?

William Hazen
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Old 12-23-2008, 09:08 AM   #31
C. David Henderson
Location: Santa Fe New Mexico
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 606
Re: Kokyu

Ludwig Neveu wrote: View Post
If Mike Sigman, Dan Harden, Rob John, Toby Threadgill, George Ledyard or Ellis Amdur (and many others experienced and knowledgeable people within and outside aikido, of course) stopped sharing their findings because of the arrogance or the ignorance of some, this would be a terrible damage done to this community.

Some of us beginners follow closely what they offer, even if they are not very vocal, and are able to get past the occasional harsh judgements. After all, Morihei Ueshiba or Sokaku Takeda were not famous for being very diplomatic.

I don't want valuable exchange and information here in Aikiweb be replaced by "aikido is whatever you decide to do", "my sensei is more badass than yours" or other types of nonsense.
Thank you Ludwig, for making this point.


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Old 04-21-2009, 02:19 PM   #32
Phil Van Treese
Dojo: Tampa Judo and Aikido Dojo, Tampa, Fl
Location: Tampa, Florida
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 177
Re: Kokyu

I speak a lot of languages but I don't speak Japanese. Phew, I wonder what I'd get if I went to a Japanese Restaurant and ordered an "Irimi Nage" over easy and my "Kokyu" medium rare??? hahaha
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