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Old 04-07-2009, 05:58 PM   #76
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Man Hesitant to Train with Woman???

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Jason Rudolph wrote: View Post
As far as the Nage role being less dangerous, I suspect that it depends on who is attacking or the context ie randori. Overall, I would agree that the Uke is more likely to ask to go easy than the Nage. However, my point is that is has been my experience that females above and beyond ask more often. This strikes me as contrary to the gender-neutral approach to training that is advocated by many, if not most dojos.

Moreover, often these are females who have significant experience and/or rank who, one would believe, would be comfortable with their ukemi abilities. I have long held the position that, particularily in Aikido, one's training can only progress as far as the ukes one has the opportuity to train with. Perhaps, overall, ukemi needs to be stressed more through the ranks as much as the waza so their is more confidence as one progresses. If one is for example, a shodan, but hesitant in one's ukemi abilities, there is a problem in my humble opinion.
I agree with you...I think uke's role is important and should be stressed in training. At our dojo the tester demonstrates in uke and nage roles.

My question is why must anyone be thrown hard?

Mary
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Old 04-08-2009, 02:59 PM   #77
Anjisan
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Cool Re: Man Hesitant to Train with Woman???

It is not so much that I believe that one <has> to be thrown hard, but more that one should in my humble opinion be <able> and at least, occassionally be willing to be thrown hard. This is particulary true at higher rank levels. However, that begs the question how can one take the proper ukemi (which is fluid and on a continuim) if they never practice it??? I certainly realize that the body only has so many hard falls, break falls, etc in it so one has to choose one's circumstances carefully.

Moreover, I have found that Ukemi teaches me so much about the deeper secrects of the waze, but one should not be limeted to only soft practice (which I do as well--if one is striving to be abe to be dynamic and fluid both approaches can contribute to a greater understanding) when one is training.

Further, I certianly make no secret of the fact that I believe any AIkidio practice should have a significant self-defence component to it (in addition to is value in psychotherapy, relationships, relaxations,ect) so being able to take a hard throw only makes sense.

However, if even from a self-preservation perspective say at a seminar one should be able to "go there" if necessary and not shy away even if it isn't the usual way one practives with other partners. There have been and will be some really really good female practicioners who I have trained with and it seems unfortunate for there to be any type of selfimposed double standard. In can only serve to hold therm and the individuals that they train with-- back.

Finally, yes of couse it comes down to the individual and that is how I am on the mat (Aikidoka is an Aikidoka peroid) but as I stated earlier, it seems to be a correlation that I and other cannot help but notice.
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Old 04-08-2009, 08:11 PM   #78
Joseph Madden
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Re: Man Hesitant to Train with Woman???

Chantal,

Feel free to stop by Kimeda Sensei's dojo the next time your're in Toronto. We'll have NO problem giving you exactly what you want.
With regards to your fellow students, maybe a little bit of physical intimidation will do the trick.There's nothing like a threat to get a person's attention. As long as you can remain friends.
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Old 04-08-2009, 10:54 PM   #79
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Re: Man Hesitant to Train with Woman???

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Chantal Amyotte wrote: View Post
I have no doubt that you already have plans of how to cause me pain before my next test. Then again, I have a few ideas of my own as well ... look out dear friend, cause this will all come back to you ... on the mat!!! hehe
Ha, make it hurt We learn through pain, you'll thank me someday!

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

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Old 04-09-2009, 05:41 AM   #80
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Man Hesitant to Train with Woman???

At a summer camp a few years ago I was training with a woman brown belt. She threw very hard each time....when it as my turn I threw very hard. She stood up and said "let's be softer"...I said "sure."

I can throw very powerfully and receive the same...and I am 51. I would like to train until I die so I am much more careful than I used to be. Serious injury can ruin training.

Mary
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Old 04-09-2009, 12:30 PM   #81
Churchill92
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Re: Man Hesitant to Train with Woman???

I see no difference in training except in relativity to the size and/or experience of the opponent. I've only been in my class twice and my teacher said to all the students "Don't be gentle with him, he knows how to fall" and both sexes stopped being gentle. Consequently there's a male there who isn't as good with rolls who has been there longer so we must be "gentle" with him.

I have a woman in my class and she's as rough and tumble as the men if not more so. If they want to throw as harder or harder than the man, go for it. If the woman feels like she has to "prove" herself hopefully you can mention to her that she doesn't have to do that. I would pray/encourage people NOT to go light on the women, treat them equal as one is nage other is uke, nowhere have I ever read that you have an Uke-major or Nage-minor. Sex means nothing in a fight.

Never know if you are going to be going up against some crazed psycho woman at a bar or her equally blitzed and larger boyfriend. Train for both, come out a winner in the end.

Check out the blog by JCD (something like that with 200+ posts) and you'll see one heckuva woman aikidoist. She would throw me through walls!

Last edited by Churchill92 : 04-09-2009 at 12:32 PM.
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Old 04-09-2009, 12:59 PM   #82
Mark Uttech
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Re: Man Hesitant to Train with Woman???

Onegaishimasu. In my experience, with some throws the throw is hard when done from your own center, but soft when done from uke's center. Has anyone else noticed this? In gassho, Mark

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Old 04-09-2009, 03:34 PM   #83
Maarten De Queecker
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Re: Man Hesitant to Train with Woman???

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
I agree with you...I think uke's role is important and should be stressed in training. At our dojo the tester demonstrates in uke and nage roles.

My question is why must anyone be thrown hard?

Mary
To be quite honest, I like being thrown hard. I have done judo for two years when I was younger and the thing I loved the most was doing breakfalls. I still love them today. Being able to take hard falls already kept me from breaking some bones when driving against a sign with my bike (yes, I was driving without hands and wasn't looking front of me. It was actually pretty hilarious). I always try to take it to the next level, because I'm training something that comes in handy during everyday life. It's like learning a new language: why stop after having learned the bare basics, when there is a lot more to be learned, thus improving your ability to communicate with foreigners?

Also, the harder you are thrown, the more technical it gets, and the more you have to rely on reflexes. You don't have the time to think anymore; everything has to be right: position of your legs, your arms, you have relax as much as possible etc. Lots of things going on at the same time, but each one of them is as important as the other.

Being able to take hard falls also gives tori the chance to go full out with a technique, instead of holding back because uke hasn't fully mastered his ukemi fully. This is most apparent when training koshinage. Most people where I train are afraid of taking ukemi during koshinage, because you actually fall from a height of 1m or higher. It's not a roll forward, it's a fall downward, head first. You can of course let uke just slide off your back but what's the point in that? There's a huge difference in getting someone on your hips, and actually swinging him or her over.

This doesn't mean that I massacre everyone during training, of course not, but people know that they can go further with me than with others and subsequently do so. I know people with whom I can do the exact same, most of them being experienced (ex-)judoka or jiu-jitsu practitioners. When there's an exercise with lots of throwing, we have the time of our lives.

Ukemi is, or at least should be, one of the most important aspects of aikido, since it is basically protecting yourself from harm.

Sidenote: a friend of mine (a fellow aikidoka) made quite an interesting observation. He said that people who know how to fall or roll, love doing it, and will attempt doing it at every occasion.

But this really doesn't have anything to do with men being hesitant to train with women anymore, does it?
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Old 04-10-2009, 04:43 AM   #84
Eva Antonia
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Re: Man Hesitant to Train with Woman???

Dear Maarten,

me too, I like hard and quick throws much more than slow and cautious ones. If someone throws me hard, there is no time to consider how I would do the fall, and normally the result is fine. But if they just want to do it gently, it gets more difficult to do the fall correctly.

Worst is shiho nage. If tori throws dynamically and blocks the twisted arm, the fall comes off brilliantly...but if he makes a pause thinking "should I really throw this frail person or should I just let her down gently?", the arm turns in all three joints, which hurts awfully and makes grinding noises if done repititively but does not really compel to fall.

And I think that all hard attacks with throws are much less dangerous for your joints than the gentle slow ones. You just do a fall dynamically, before the joint can really hurt. One exception is irimi nage omote where the joint in question is the NECK, and which I hate, no matter if dynamically done or slowly. I still think this technique might break my neck (or make me break someone's neck) one day.

I know that I'm also hesitant when training with frailer persons, but still, once you know how to take a fall, the rapid version does less damage (and is more fun).

Best regards from sunny Brussels ,

Eva
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Old 04-10-2009, 06:38 AM   #85
Maarten De Queecker
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Re: Man Hesitant to Train with Woman???

Shiho nage done slowly is quite painful when doing a forward roll, especially when the joint lock is really tight, or downright impossible when nage decides to keep your arm close to your back.

I am always more careful with frailer looking people, male or female, if I don't know them. That being said, I hardly ever go full out with anyone since I don't know the extent of my own power, of which according to some people I have a lot so I'm always afraid of hurting people, especially with joint locks.
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Old 04-10-2009, 11:45 AM   #86
Chantal
 
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Re: Man Hesitant to Train with Woman???

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Ha, make it hurt We learn through pain, you'll thank me someday!
I have already learned that you like a little more force and contact in aikido than is expected. You want your partners in training to throw you fast and hard and yet, you are quite gentle with me ... I do understand you holding back since I am several belts below you. While I am learning the technique for the first time, you have done it 100's of times. Note to self next time Grant, on a technique I know well, throw me harder and faster ... it fine tunes my skills

Chantal

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Old 04-10-2009, 02:14 PM   #87
Esaemann
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Re: Man Hesitant to Train with Woman???

Mark,
Agree that the throw is hard when from nage's center; at least it seems that way when I'm throwing based on uke's reaction. I really get a good feeling that I've done it right. However, a deeper level would be ...
Re: from Uke's center (me as uke) - it doesn't take much for my partner (nage) to send me across the room when he has my center. Its an interesting feeling. I'm just exploring finding partners center myself. It is easier to find the center when partner is stiff vs. "relaxed".

Eric
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Old 04-10-2009, 02:47 PM   #88
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Re: Man Hesitant to Train with Woman???

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Mark Uttech wrote: View Post
Onegaishimasu. In my experience, with some throws the throw is hard when done from your own center, but soft when done from uke's center. Has anyone else noticed this? In gassho, Mark
Yes, although I think our centers are supposed to become one, no?
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Old 04-10-2009, 03:09 PM   #89
Esaemann
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Re: Man Hesitant to Train with Woman???

In that vein, I've been told to move toward where I can't tell the difference between myself and partner. Here the mind gets in the way. Similar to enlightenment experience during meditation where you can't tell the difference between yourself and surroundings?
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Old 04-11-2009, 03:38 PM   #90
Mark Uttech
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Re: Man Hesitant to Train with Woman???

Onegaishimasu, on the one hand, there is an ideal of oneness. On the other hand, ( and there always is an other hand!) The reality of duality is there too. It is useful to make something like that part of your practice. In gassho, Mark

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Old 04-12-2009, 01:16 PM   #91
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Re: Man Hesitant to Train with Woman???

Quote:
Chantal Amyotte wrote: View Post
next time on a technique I know well, throw me harder and faster ... it fine tunes my skills
My pleasure! Attack me faster and I'll be happy to =)
I have close to a hundred pounds pounds on you so your rolls are gonna have to be pretty decent- and we'll need more mats.

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On the other hand, ( and there always is an other hand!)
Not always mark
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLqovX4G8Z0

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Old 04-12-2009, 02:52 PM   #92
Chantal
 
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Re: Man Hesitant to Train with Woman???

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My pleasure! Attack me faster and I'll be happy to =)
I have close to a hundred pounds pounds on you so your rolls are gonna have to be pretty decent- and we'll need more mats.
is having a hundred pounds pounds really that much more than 100lbs ... hmmmm

yes I suppose i need to work on rolls ... I am going to class all week this week (cause i am actually not sick) so that will help.

Chantal

The spiritual beauty, which is the deepest truth, sustains me!
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Old 04-12-2009, 03:31 PM   #93
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Re: Man Hesitant to Train with Woman???

I think the higher tier aikioda will say that someones weight/muscle mass/strength has zero effect on an Aikido technique.

I'm not at that stage yet/don't understand that yet. I still think size and strength can play a significant role in technique.

Before you got to class Bob Claude and I would practically try to murder each other when Sensei wasn't watching, it was a lot of fun. Claude was a lot smaller and lighter but he had 40 years of Martial arts and numerous black belts behind him. Bob and I are at the same level but I found my weight a big advantage when we really started rolling.

If you're hungry, keep moving.
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If you value you're life, keep moving.

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Old 04-12-2009, 03:54 PM   #94
Chantal
 
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Re: Man Hesitant to Train with Woman???

I know that my opponents weight has a major impact on me. I am not oblivious to the fact that 200 lbs has a GREAT advantage over my 115 lbs. In addition, male attacking female (in training) and female attacking male (in training) will yeild significantly different outcomes .... at least in the beginning. I hope that once I move up the ranks and improve techniques that I will rely (unconsciously) less on body weight and be capable of using posture and balance to my advantage.

Chantal

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Old 04-16-2009, 01:54 PM   #95
Phil Van Treese
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Re: Man Hesitant to Train with Woman???

Personally, I don't care if you have 6,000,000 posts here. My thoughts are my thoughts like it or don't read it. We have women in our dojo that get mad when we "take it easy" on them. Aikido is to train and if you ever have to use it as a defense, the "bad guy" is not going to take it easy on you so train as if your life depended on it. Someday, and I hope not, it just might.
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Old 04-16-2009, 04:12 PM   #96
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Re: Man Hesitant to Train with Woman???

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Aikido is to train and if you ever have to use it as a defense, the "bad guy" is not going to take it easy on you so train as if your life depended on it. Someday, and I hope not, it just might.
Hey Phil,

I agree 100%. I've mentioned (I think) you need to take someone outside their comfort zone o stress them, challenge them and prepare them.
That said I think there is a difference between taking it easy on someone and training them at a level sufficient to challenge them yet not remove he value of training all together.

I'm going to treat a 115 pound skinny guy the same way I would a 115 pound skinny girl. For me it's not a matter of gender but physical size, muscle and resilience (as well as level of training)

If you're hungry, keep moving.
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If you value you're life, keep moving.

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Old 04-16-2009, 08:03 PM   #97
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Re: Man Hesitant to Train with Woman???

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Hey Phil,

I agree 100%. I've mentioned (I think) you need to take someone outside their comfort zone o stress them, challenge them and prepare them.
That said I think there is a difference between taking it easy on someone and training them at a level sufficient to challenge them yet not remove he value of training all together.

I'm going to treat a 115 pound skinny guy the same way I would a 115 pound skinny girl. For me it's not a matter of gender but physical size, muscle and resilience (as well as level of training)
Your right, when does the type of genitalia give an advantage in a fight. I was surfing the TV and stopped in the middle of this documentary where a women was telling a story about another women who was insulted (not slightly, but all out) in a bar by the guy she was siting next to. After the insult the women got up behind the guy, grabbed him by the shoulders, spun him around and K.O.ed him with one punch.

To All,

When it comes to muscle, I think women have enough of it, and like some men don't exercise it. How you over-come muscle strength is the same for both men and women if they don't have enough muscle. Size, women don't come in one size, and neither do men. All women are not smaller then all men. The level of training and experience in situations, plays a role. There is a whole generation of MMA fans that only see what MMA promotes in terms of fights and fighters. They think the strongest one wins, or they think that for other reasons. They see the stronger win, they think they see that. What they don't see is a trained female MMA fighter take on a man in their division. Say two featherweights, one male one female. Or they don't see a female MMA fighter up a untrained dude in the ring. They also don't see a male lightweight fighter take a untrained heavyweight on in the ring. Perceptions are tunnel vision and reduced to one single aspect. It takes more then muscle to win a fight.

Yes, I still am on the side of the wimpy guy who is not credited, but subjected to the same faults as those attributed to women.

Last edited by Buck : 04-16-2009 at 08:05 PM.
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Old 04-20-2009, 02:52 PM   #98
Phil Van Treese
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Re: Man Hesitant to Train with Woman???

Phillip B. and Grant I am glad you agree. With the stuff out there like rapes, muggings, kidnappings etc those criminal clowns won't take it easy on anyone. It burns me when I hear someone say that "women are the weaker sex" because some of my best instrs. have been women!!! But the training makes the difference and when you "take it easy" on anyone, you're not doing them justice. I know that there are a lot of instructors out there that train like their life depends on it and my hat is off to you all. I'd rather hear the students complain that it was a hard practise rather than not break a sweat because they didn't train hard.
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