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Old 03-29-2009, 09:28 PM   #1
dps
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Flinch Response in Aikido

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk_Ai8qT2s4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWWl7...eature=related

What do you think of Tony Bauer's idea about startle/flinch response.
How it can apply to Aikido?

David
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Old 03-29-2009, 09:47 PM   #2
MarkWatson
 
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Re: Flinch Response in Aikido

Hi David.

I just watched the first video and paid close attention and i belive he has avery good point.
I'm am a white belt in iwama ryu aikido and have been training for approx 5 months and i love everything about the art, both physicaly and spiritualy, mentality of the art too. However beeing 16yrs old living in a small town near Glasgow, Scotland, i have the everygrowing need to protect myself against todays modern kids (im only a kid myself i know) and even adults. In the town where i live there is ALWAYS a chance of being attacked. I have been attacked twice whilst studying aikido and not used aikido untill i knew it was a right moment.
Basically in the video he talks about the first movements...
When i was attacked i through my arms up in the air and then grappled his neck and then realised 'hey if i move behind him i could do a variation of irimi nage' and i did so.

Basically what im trying to say is, protect yourself first and then try to apply a technique.
I was very lucky to be in the postion to apply a technique, unlike teh other time i was attacked.

Regards,
Mark
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Old 03-29-2009, 10:43 PM   #3
Spinmaster
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Re: Flinch Response in Aikido

I just watched the first vid and enjoyed it quite a bit (though I probably missed a couple things because youtube doesn't like my laptop, and I was keeping the sound down so as not to disturb others who are trying to get to sleep). It sounds quite similar to some stuff my BJJ coach was describing when telling me about a "practical self defense" course he's going to offer in the near future. Working from natural flinch response, closest weapon to closest target, etc.
Maybe I'll have some more to say later, but I should be getting to bed now!
Thanks for posting the vids.
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Old 03-29-2009, 11:28 PM   #4
Michael Varin
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Re: Flinch Response in Aikido

First off, it is apparent that Tony Blauer is a businessman who is capitalizing on the tactical trend that started after 9/11. He has come up with a catchy acronym and all the gear to go with it. Considering the affect this has had on the law enforcement community, I'm not entirely sure that this is a positive thing anymore. But I digress. . .

Blauer seems to be a very good instructor, but there is nothing unique or original about the concepts he is teaching.

This easily applies to aikido. It is part of the principle of centerline, and is embodied in the movement shomenuchi, which presents itself in numerous techniques.

Further, aikido addresses surprise, superior numbers, and weapons, which are the most dangerous situations and all of which relate strongly to the concepts Blauer was teaching.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 03-29-2009, 11:34 PM   #5
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Flinch Response in Aikido

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk_Ai8qT2s4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWWl7...eature=related

What do you think of Tony Bauer's idea about startle/flinch response.
How it can apply to Aikido?
It already is. Funetori, udefuri, furitama, asagao, etc.-- they are just slowed down in order to examine them is all. With good training "techniques" are what flow from those very basic things in various configurations as things just play out .

Good stuff though.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 03-30-2009, 12:28 AM   #6
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Flinch Response in Aikido

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
First off, it is apparent that Tony Blauer is a businessman who is capitalizing on the tactical trend that started after 9/11. He has come up with a catchy acronym and all the gear to go with it. Considering the affect this has had on the law enforcement community, I'm not entirely sure that this is a positive thing anymore. But I digress. . .

Blauer seems to be a very good instructor, but there is nothing unique or original about the concepts he is teaching.

This easily applies to aikido. It is part of the principle of centerline, and is embodied in the movement shomenuchi, which presents itself in numerous techniques.

Further, aikido addresses surprise, superior numbers, and weapons, which are the most dangerous situations and all of which relate strongly to the concepts Blauer was teaching.
To be fair... Tony Blauer pioneered many of the concepts about scenario training that are commonplace today. I have videos of the work he was doing way back in the early nineties. He was doing staged muggings in the park with protective gear cobbled together from myriad sources. His stuff has always been solid. He is a good business man, unlike most martial artists but that doesn't equate to bad quality, in his case. His gear is expensive, pretty much geared for institutional purchase. But it is good stuff and well designed. Anyway, he isn't just some Johhny come lately post 911 wonder. He's spent a lot of years refining his stuff and it's generally good stuff.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
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Old 03-30-2009, 02:12 AM   #7
Michael Varin
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Re: Flinch Response in Aikido

Thanks for adding that, George.

And, I'd like to make it clear that I wasn't disparaging Blauer specifically or entrepreneurialism generally.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 03-30-2009, 02:59 AM   #8
sorokod
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Re: Flinch Response in Aikido

"wax on, wax off"?

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Old 03-30-2009, 04:46 AM   #9
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Re: Flinch Response in Aikido

Agreed, Tony has been around for a while. I have always enjoyed his emphasis on the mental discipline, knowledge is power if put into practice.

IMHO, what is important, is that the flinch/startle response can be trained and utilized.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 03-30-2009, 05:57 AM   #10
dps
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Re: Flinch Response in Aikido

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
"wax on, wax off"?
In the movie "Karate Kid" the sensei, Mr. Miyagi, teaches his student, Daniel, karate principles by having him do seemingly menial jobs. Waxing a bunch of old cars Mr. Miyagi has at his house (wax on, wax off ) teaches Daniel about blocking punches.

Go rent the movie and see it.

David
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Old 03-30-2009, 09:16 AM   #11
Bob Blackburn
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Re: Flinch Response in Aikido

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
In the movie "Karate Kid" the sensei, Mr. Miyagi, teaches his student, Daniel, karate principles by having him do seemingly menial jobs. Waxing a bunch of old cars Mr. Miyagi has at his house (wax on, wax off ) teaches Daniel about blocking punches.

Go rent the movie and see it.

David
When I quote this movie and the student's eyes glass over, I start feeling old.

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Old 03-30-2009, 10:30 AM   #12
sorokod
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Re: Flinch Response in Aikido

Quote:
In the movie "Karate Kid" the sensei, Mr. Miyagi,...
"Karate Kid" is rated UK:12. It's a film for children.
Is this is the level of martial arts know how Mr. Blauer's audience is comfortable with?

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Old 03-30-2009, 11:00 AM   #13
Spinmaster
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Re: Flinch Response in Aikido

I love Karate Kid.
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Old 03-30-2009, 11:31 AM   #14
Nick P.
 
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Re: Flinch Response in Aikido

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
"Karate Kid" is rated UK:12. It's a film for children.
Is this is the level of martial arts know how Mr. Blauer's audience is comfortable with?
That is not how I understand that rating at all, it is for those 12 and over, see http://www.bbfc.co.uk/classification/c_12.php

That movie is simply a cultural reference, one which is rather quite wide spread, much like using the term Klingon or Darth Vader. Arguably also for kids of all ages, but by no means a limited modern reference in my opinion.

To the original question: seems already rather intigrated. Add it to basic irimi/tai sabaki and I begin to understand more why I feel
1- aikido seems so natural
2- I gravitate towards kokyunages, I guess as they remove the need for pinning and precise handwork (dont misinterprate that to mean I dont strive for precise handword and pinning).

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Old 03-30-2009, 11:31 AM   #15
sorokod
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Re: Flinch Response in Aikido

Me, I am "The Cat in the Hat" person, but I do not see Thing One and Thing Two as a randori demonstration.

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Old 03-30-2009, 12:52 PM   #16
Ketsan
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Re: Flinch Response in Aikido

I thought the idea was that Aikido became your flinch reponse.

It's near enough mine.
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Old 03-30-2009, 04:35 PM   #17
Russ Q
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Re: Flinch Response in Aikido

Interesting.....George sensei, I've just finished watching your "Irimi" instructional video and I think what you have to say speaks clearly to the flinch response..... "being inside" with your mind before the combative distance is closed resulting in nage's action simply being a physical manifestation of already being mentally inside. This may not speak to the physical symptons of our fight or flight response but, I find, gives me a starting point to work from. Perhaps you could elaborate on that idea if you agree with my statement.

Cheers,

Russ
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Old 03-30-2009, 08:44 PM   #18
dps
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Re: Flinch Response in Aikido

Three other links.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWeCW... =PL&index=24

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--74C...=PL&index= 25

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--74C...=PL&index= 25

I see the basics he is talking about in the beginning of most Aikido techniques. The only thing I do not see is proper distancing. Is it because the system is a for law enforcement officers?

David
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Old 03-31-2009, 12:52 AM   #19
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Flinch Response in Aikido

Quote:
Russ Qureshi wrote: View Post
Interesting.....George sensei, I've just finished watching your "Irimi" instructional video and I think what you have to say speaks clearly to the flinch response..... "being inside" with your mind before the combative distance is closed resulting in nage's action simply being a physical manifestation of already being mentally inside. This may not speak to the physical symptons of our fight or flight response but, I find, gives me a starting point to work from. Perhaps you could elaborate on that idea if you agree with my statement.

Cheers,

Russ
Hi Russ,
I think the whole idea of "irimi", entering first with your mind and then with your body, pretty much precludes a flinch response. It's not hard not to get the flinch / startle response when you already know you are in an encounter.

On the other hand, it is very difficult to not have the startle response when you are surprised (which my videos didn't really address). This is why predators prefer an ambush.

I think Peyton Quinn's Adrenaline Stress Conditioning work is the most realistic training for the unexpected assault you can find. He's at Rocky Mountain Combat Applications.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
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Old 03-31-2009, 05:47 AM   #20
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Re: Flinch Response in Aikido

Quote:
Glen Luke Flanagan wrote: View Post
I love Karate Kid.
Ya, we all do.
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Old 03-31-2009, 06:02 AM   #21
JimCooper
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Re: Flinch Response in Aikido

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
First off, it is apparent that Tony Blauer is a businessman who is capitalizing on the tactical trend that started after 9/11.
I went on one of his courses in the early 90s. The guy has been around a long time, always stressing realism in his training. But even back then, he did tend to use a few too many movie metaphors :-)

In regard to the original question, IME aikido dojo never train the flinch reflex. There's no particular reason why they couldn't though, as it is only used to protect yourself in the face of a surprise (and usually close range) attack. What you do next is where aikido (or any other martial art) comes in.

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
This easily applies to aikido. It is part of the principle of centerline, and is embodied in the movement shomenuchi
Well, having trained for some years with an instructor who also utilises flinch reflex training, I have to disagree with you on that one. I've never seen it used that way in an aikido dojo.
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Old 03-31-2009, 06:28 AM   #22
grondahl
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Re: Flinch Response in Aikido

In some styles of aikido, nage/tori initiates the encounter by doing shomenuchi/shomenate and then capitalises on ukes response (similiar to the flinchresponse) to create the waza.
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Old 03-31-2009, 06:37 AM   #23
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Re: Flinch Response in Aikido

I believe it's a pretty common response.
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Old 03-31-2009, 06:57 AM   #24
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Re: Flinch Response in Aikido

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
I see the basics he is talking about in the beginning of most Aikido techniques. The only thing I do not see is proper distancing. Is it because the system is a for law enforcement officers?
David
No, it's because of the type of attack he's talking about. These are surprise attacks, from a realistic distance.

What you call "proper distancing" is dojo stuff for (basic) training purposes. If you have only ever trained from outside touching distance, you have never done any realistic self defence training.

If you always have the sort of control over distance that is possible in a dojo, you never need to get involved in unarmed combat.

But actually, nobody will ever attack you with a stepping punch. Firstly, because unless you've trained for years, you can't do one properly (and I include every aikidoka I've ever met, of any rank, who hasn't trained in karate or similar in that statement). Secondly, it's really a quite weak punch. Try doing it against a punching bag, then compare it with a simple reverse punch. There is no comparison.
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Old 03-31-2009, 11:26 AM   #25
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Re: Flinch Response in Aikido

An interview here: The Tony Blauer Story.

Amusingly the FBI's name is misspelled along with the names of other organisations.

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