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Old 03-27-2009, 10:04 AM   #26
David Orange
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Re: Teachers Only Internal Training?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
My point is more a discussion (or trying to start one) about the efficacy and/or practicality of the thought that a "teacher" is somehow different from a "beginner".
It sounds like Dan's just trying to get existing teachers on board with the idea so that their dojos can be open to the idea--bypassing the situation where a student learns something but can't bring it back to his dojo. If you get the teacher interested, his students are bound to follow.

FWIW

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 03-27-2009, 10:11 AM   #27
David Orange
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Re: Teachers Only Internal Training?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Here, let me try it in a different way. Is it feasible to differentiate someone who is a "teacher" (but never had any/much in the way of "internal" skills) from a "beginner/student" who never had any/much in the way of "internal" skills? That's my central question.
I agree very strongly with you that people who are already teachers may have very complicated internal orientations of both mind and body to produce a very particular body arrangement that works well for them within the bounds of their arts, but which may strongly conflict with the IS ways. People often make very complicated mental adjustments to get good in an art, including internalization of all kinds of dogma and compulsive tonus. I agree that they may find it much harder to relearn, depending on their particular experience, than a pure beginner.

BUT, if you can get that teacher in and let him feel the difference in effect with IS methods, at least it opens his mind to what he is definitely missing and he may make it much easier for his students.

On the other hand, assuming that a teacher is "in the driver's seat" in his own dojo is not necessarily a great bet. Much of a teacher's mental orientation is adjustment to the peculiarities (to say the least) of whatever organization he ""BELONGS"" to. In many ways, the teacher of an art is under greater strictures from his organization than the beginner is under from the teacher. So if you get teachers in, they could be just like the beginner and say, "If only my organization would let me do this in my dojo...."

I think it's a good idea to try it, though.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 03-27-2009, 10:13 AM   #28
Mike Sigman
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Re: Why teachers?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
These teachers are as uninterested in the panoply of every negative aspersion and presumption imaginable being made about them here (all spelled out in a matter of hours since I posted the seminar!! how cute ) from someone who neither knows them or anything about them as I am.
??? Mind quoting where someone has made a "negative aspersion" about someone?

Once again, I see a thread with some very good clinical questions and discussions being shoved down the drain by someone trying to make it into a personal discussion, which it wasn't before.

The central question about exacly HOW a generic "teacher" is able to manifest skills in a teaching/guiding mode had not been answered, even though I've looked back at post #2 several times. Maybe I see a *theory* that it's going to be done, but I don't see functionally any real explanation other than the assertion.

I seriously don't care what you do, Dan. You had a public notice of a workshop for teachers only posted and I asked a clinical question, which took some people a few more posts to understand that it was an academic question. Ask them to explain to you what I actually asked and then maybe let's try again.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 03-27-2009, 10:23 AM   #29
Mike Sigman
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Re: Teachers Only Internal Training?

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
It sounds like Dan's just trying to get existing teachers on board with the idea so that their dojos can be open to the idea--bypassing the situation where a student learns something but can't bring it back to his dojo. If you get the teacher interested, his students are bound to follow.
OK, I can accept a "get teachers on board" idea, although from actual experience I think I could point out some things that will crop up along those lines.

My original question was a good one and it resolves down to the question of whether there is a credible reason to have a "teacher" and a "student" differentiation for people just learning these skills. However, at this point I'm not even clear what it is that Dan is teaching, so maybe I'm presuming too much.

Since Dan's taken it immediately to the personal-attack stage, I'm out of it.

Best.

Mike
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Old 03-27-2009, 10:50 AM   #30
DH
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Re: Teachers Only Internal Training?

Quote:
It sounds like Dan's just trying to get existing teachers on board with the idea so that their dojos can be open to the idea--bypassing the situation where a student learns something but can't bring it back to his dojo. If you get the teacher interested, his students are bound to follow.
Hi Dave, long time....
Yes. As a business or information dissemination model it has the best chance of reaching a broader market. Now, since it is physical skill, it won't matter unless everyone does the work right? And you can't really fake it as the comparative information and exposure to it is out there.
So that leads to your next response

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
I agree very strongly with you that people who are already teachers may have very complicated internal orientations of both mind and body to produce a very particular body arrangement that works well for them within the bounds of their arts, but which may strongly conflict with the IS ways. People often make very complicated mental adjustments to get good in an art, including internalization of all kinds of dogma and compulsive tonus. I agree that they may find it much harder to relearn, depending on their particular experience, than a pure beginner.

BUT, if you can get that teacher in and let him feel the difference in effect with IS methods, at least it opens his mind to what he is definitely missing and he may make it much easier for his students.

On the other hand, assuming that a teacher is "in the driver's seat" in his own dojo is not necessarily a great bet. Much of a teacher's mental orientation is adjustment to the peculiarities (to say the least) of whatever organization he ""BELONGS"" to. In many ways, the teacher of an art is under greater strictures from his organization than the beginner is under from the teacher. So if you get teachers in, they could be just like the beginner and say, "If only my organization would let me do this in my dojo...."

I think it's a good idea to try it, though.

David
Good points, fair questions. So we take it out for a spin right?
I have been. For a very long time, This isn't new to me. This is a second go round at bat. I did this stuff before, teaching teachers and then teaching them and their students. SSDD. I just stopped....ten or eleven years ago. Did it work then? Yes.
I have recently opened the door and started again. Is it working so far? Yes.

As an acedemic question- people can speculate and ponder, that's fine. For me it is -personal- in the sense that I have done it in the past, and am doing it again now and have very real relationships with people involved. I have hard won lessons learned from failures and embarrasment in going down that road. But I have more shining positive experiences and relationships that were well worth the time than negative ones. Were it an "academic" discussion of the approach, effectiveness, and follow up, potential problems and how best to resolve them... a smart move is to ask those with years of experience actually doing it, with a student base to include teachers and those teachers students to answer the question-were they interested.

The "idea" of successfully teaching teachers is one question. "What" you are teaching is another. I think taking the approach demonstrated here and framing the discussion this way was not exactly putting the best foot forward in illiciting a nuetral response from those most able to address it.
Good to hear from you again. I thought you were coming up???
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 03-27-2009 at 11:02 AM.
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Old 03-27-2009, 12:22 PM   #31
Fred Little
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Re: Why teachers?

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
Teachers are very, very experienced students.
They have spent a long time practicing.
And noticing things that happen in their bodies.
They will readily cling to new paradigms in movement. They will see their power leakages quicker. They will see how close they came, but missed certain connections. They will find patterns that they habitually avoid because…something lead them that way. They will learn to seek the ‘feel' of this bodysuit easier..for they are likely more attuned to their own bodies (i.e. the *tool* of the martial artist)

They will see their kinaesthetic solutions (i.e. their own movement patterns) as 1 among other possibilities. And will quickly be able to extrapolate.

They will see how this foundation can graft onto their own base…

That's why it will be special for (earnest) teachers…

Josh
Josh,

Based on my own experience as a student and as a teacher, I would disagree.When confronted with new ways of doing things, or training things that are radically different from my ingrained body patterns, I find that my past experience is a burden as much or more than it is a benefit.

With regard to sword work, for example, I have some deeply ingrained habits from too much Saito-style suburi that are utterly dysfunctional from the perspective of any koryu that teaches functional use of the sword. I could give a long list of other examples, but that one will suffice for now.

But when it comes to physical skills, I've never been the sharpest knife in the drawer, so maybe that's just me.

Even if we stipulate that an instructor might have an enhanced ability to recognize the benefits of a new way of training, that doesn't necessarily translate into more rapid progress, even with practice, simply because of the basic work of removing the old bad habit. Without practice -- and my personal experience tells me instructors who are actively teaching may have limitations in that area too -- the problem is compounded.

Just my .02

FL

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Old 03-27-2009, 12:29 PM   #32
David Orange
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Re: Teachers Only Internal Training?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I thought you were coming up???
I still want to. Looks like one of your 2009 seminars may be my best chance soon. I sent you an e-mail at the address on the other thread. Hope to hear from you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 03-28-2009, 08:44 AM   #33
DH
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Re: Why teachers?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I asked a clinical question, which took some people a few more posts to understand that it was an academic question. Ask them to explain to you what I actually asked and then maybe let's try again.

Regards,
Mike Sigman
I really don't need to ask others to explain your posts. They are usually transparent.
Since you brought it up- the blizzard of emails I received from readers here pretty much summed up my take on it as well,
If you had some neutral academic approach you were shooting for- it by and large missed its goals. If that really was your intent, no harm no foul. But perhaps it's you who should try again.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 03-28-2009 at 08:52 AM.
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Old 03-29-2009, 04:47 PM   #34
rob_liberti
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Re: Teachers Only Internal Training?

This post in a related thread sums it up best:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...5&postcount=10

As for my thoughts about an internal skills seminar for teachers; well, some teachers got to be teachers due to a lot of dedicated work, and have decades of both self disciple as well as beginner's mind. If you have those skills, and have taken care of your body fairly well, I'm thinking you might just learn a bit faster than the average beginner. It doesn't hurt to have some students who are willing to push on you after every class as well. Good luck. -Rob
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Old 03-29-2009, 05:23 PM   #35
DH
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Re: Teachers Only Internal Training?

Hi Rob
While that may or may not always be true-it still doesn't address the main point-and where I think Mike and I dissagree.
a) Why assume teachers have to be treated differently?
My sole purpose (and again that's just my view of what I have been doing placed within in the broader context of Mikes excellent points) was to allow the teachers a chance to start and then go back and...........practice! Not teach, not pretend, but just practice like anyone else who has been attending these shindigs.
Meaning?
b)For all the discussion of teachers and students being the same?
My rebuttal is....yeah they are. Since students are going back to practice? Why can't teachers do the same thing? Instead of looking at just the negative-consider that teachers have the capacity to be honest and tell students they do not know the material and just want to practice it and THEN have the authority to set time aside and bring Ark, Mike, Ushiro, etc etc to come in an offer other approaches
.
It really is a no brainer. I guess I would look at the discussion more favorably had it also included both positive and negative possibitlies and the discussion was not slanted toward negative presumptions that teachers would always "do the bad thing."
Cheers
Dan
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Old 03-29-2009, 05:36 PM   #36
DH
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Re: Teachers Only Internal Training?

TO further my point about teachers being able to create opportunites for students to start practicing these things see post # 48 here
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...t=14556&page=2
By Mike Sigman-himself outlining the problem in a reply to Ron Tisdale:
Quote:
I, along with a lot of other people who have posted on the subject, agree with that. If you get your eyes opened and you suddenly start trying to practice these things in a dojo where the teacher and other students don't know these things, you either need to quit bother (sic) trying to do them or you need to quit the dojo. You're doomed, if you're trying to learn.

I went and looked at a local dojo as a potential place to workout/exercise and after watching the way everyone moved, I knew it would be a waste of time and frustrating to join. Peer pressure would eventually cause friction because I "wasn't doing it the way Sensei showed us", etc. Conformity will kill you.

YMMV

Mike
Which as Rob related -I was already addressing behind the scenes by teaching Aikido teachers. I just wasn't talking about it much. I really didn't know how it would go.
So here now-a year after Mikes post-I responded to the issue here:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15931
A partial quote:
Quote:
Lets review the posts on aikiweb. Students have been writing in here for a few years now talking about the frustrations of not being able to practice this new training when they wanted to. Some even quit or took a break from Aikido to get this.
"Fair enough." I said.
How about if I can help fix that?
How about teaching the teachers who control those classes. Could I get them interested enough, so that students could actually train aiki in an aikido dojo? Well, I have been quietly testing that out for a few years now. I took a chance that really might have blown up in my face. We could be talking about some real negative experiences here couldn't we?
Good news
It is working out rather well. The teachers love it-many of whom have been searching for this kind of material most of their careers and not getting it. The students are enjoying the fact that there teachers are letting them practice it and I can say I helped.
Hey, I'm just trying to do the best I can manage with time allowed.
I can't wait to meet some of the guys who have been writing me. I think we will have a great time sweating together and raising a few later.
Mikes post gave options of
1. Quiting the training
2. Quiting aikido
3. Being frustrated and not joining an Aikido dojo
My "idea" may resolve all three and bring this into aikido in the smoothest way possible. I say "may resolve." Who really knows. But I think it's worth the effort. I have done it before in Gojo and judo dojos.


Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 03-29-2009 at 05:51 PM.
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Old 03-29-2009, 05:57 PM   #37
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Teachers Only Internal Training?

Cheers Dan, keep at it! It wil be appreciated.

Mike, I owe you an appology, I wasn't able to come up to Itten. It's been kind of crazy latey. I'll pm later on to explain.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 03-30-2009, 09:19 AM   #38
DH
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Re: Teachers Only Internal Training?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Cheers Dan, keep at it! It wil be appreciated.

Mike, I owe you an appology, I wasn't able to come up to Itten. It's been kind of crazy latey. I'll pm later on to explain.

Best,
Ron
Hi Bud
Well I hope it continues to be productive. FWIW, I am in no way advocating for me. As you know personally from training with my people here I demand they go out and train with others including Ark, Mike, ICMA teachers, DR teachers and the like whenever they cn manage it. I am trying to get people to "think" and continue to go out and experience a much broader view of these things.

I just don't want to stand by and watch aikido people quit Aikido because they cannot find it there or after exposure to the possibilities of an Aikido with aiki not be allowed to train or practice it in their home dojo. There has been enough of that already with the old "effectiveness" issues to the point that enrollment is down. We can fix that in a fairly profound way by re-introducing power and aiki into the art where it is missing that may last into the next generation.
Look forward to getting together again some day Ron.
Dan
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Old 03-30-2009, 10:16 AM   #39
DH
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Re: Teachers Only Internal Training?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
This post in a related thread sums it up best:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...5&postcount=10

As for my thoughts about an internal skills seminar for teachers; well, some teachers got to be teachers due to a lot of dedicated work, and have decades of both self disciple as well as beginner's mind. If you have those skills, and have taken care of your body fairly well, I'm thinking you might just learn a bit faster than the average beginner. It doesn't hurt to have some students who are willing to push on you after every class as well. Good luck. -Rob
I re-read this post just this morning. I don't think I gave it just consideration. Not all teachers or people with rank are there just because they hung out the longest. Some are there because of the reasons you outline; natural talent, self discipline,a continual beginners mind to which I would add; tenacity, determination, sincerity and....maybe an ability to teach! Which brings me right back to that turning point I had about opening the door again-that now well known dinner with a friend who got me to re-think all my ideas about teachers, and budo, and helping.
Good on ya Rob
Dan
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Old 03-30-2009, 12:06 PM   #40
Aikibu
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Re: Teachers Only Internal Training?

Well I get the what and why of what you're trying to do Mr Hardin just perfectly... and I am going to do my best to get there (unemployed and broke or not)...

I would love to share my experiance of it with all the West Coast Shoji Nishio Adherents and since I feel it will make our Aikido better for having been exposed to it perhaps it will lead to bigger and better things in the future like getting one of your senior students or you out here someday.

William Hazen
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Old 03-30-2009, 12:30 PM   #41
DH
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Re: Teachers Only Internal Training?

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Well I get the what and why of what you're trying to do Mr Hardin just perfectly... and I am going to do my best to get there (unemployed and broke or not)...

I would love to share my experiance of it with all the West Coast Shoji Nishio Adherents and since I feel it will make our Aikido better for having been exposed to it perhaps it will lead to bigger and better things in the future like getting one of your senior students or you out here someday.

William Hazen
Hi William
I answered this in the seminar thread
Dan
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