Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Non-Aikido Martial Traditions

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-25-2009, 11:38 AM   #51
Shany
 
Shany's Avatar
Dojo: ISTA
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 164
Israel
Offline
Re: Starting the internal aiki quest- my experience with Aunkai

aha, Aunkai reminds of the Drunken Kung-Fu method! Too much energy for such low effect!
boaz, was Aikikai so bad that you had to search for other stuff?

A good stance and posture reflects a proper state of mind
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2009, 01:22 PM   #52
Budd
 
Budd's Avatar
Dojo: Taikyoku Budo - NY, MD
Location: Williamsville, NY
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 932
United_States
Offline
Re: Starting the internal aiki quest- my experience with Aunkai

Quote:
Shany Golan wrote: View Post
aha, Aunkai reminds of the Drunken Kung-Fu method! Too much energy for such low effect!
boaz, was Aikikai so bad that you had to search for other stuff?
Out of curiosity, what do you mean by low effect? Have you actually trained with a member of the Aunkai? I'm trying to figure out if you're making a joke or really do think that . . and if it's the latter, what info/exposure you're basing this on.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2009, 01:49 PM   #53
Shany
 
Shany's Avatar
Dojo: ISTA
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 164
Israel
Offline
Re: Starting the internal aiki quest- my experience with Aunkai

Budd Yuhasz,
If I wanted to poke someone in the eye, I would do just that and wouldn't need to turn 360 while opening my hands and bending my knees just to poke him in the eye.

A good stance and posture reflects a proper state of mind
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2009, 01:51 PM   #54
Budd
 
Budd's Avatar
Dojo: Taikyoku Budo - NY, MD
Location: Williamsville, NY
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 932
United_States
Offline
Re: Starting the internal aiki quest- my experience with Aunkai

Shany,

Okay, thanks, your non-answer actually did answer my question.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2009, 01:59 PM   #55
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Starting the internal aiki quest- my experience with Aunkai

Quote:
Shany Golan wrote: View Post
If I wanted to poke someone in the eye, I would do just that and wouldn't need to turn 360 while opening my hands and bending my knees just to poke him in the eye.
Well, that's true. Maybe it depends upon whether you want to train to poke him in the eye or throw him kokyunage somewhat better than you can normally do.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_vcWq2GYXs
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2009, 02:08 PM   #56
Budd
 
Budd's Avatar
Dojo: Taikyoku Budo - NY, MD
Location: Williamsville, NY
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 932
United_States
Offline
Re: Starting the internal aiki quest- my experience with Aunkai

Oh my lord is that guy powerful . . wowsa
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2009, 02:23 PM   #57
Ishimuzi
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 14
Israel
Offline
Re: Starting the internal aiki quest- my experience with Aunkai

Thanks a lot for the detailed answers Mike!
A lot of food for thought.
(Im gonna read your posts a few times to let them sink)

I was asking how you distinguish between body conditioning and "kokyu/jin/whatever forces " are they separate? or intertwined? dependant?
I will PM you.

Shani, I'm still in Aikikai, I have not retired but added the IA training .
I just believe Aikido has much more in to it, than just learning some external technique, I suggest you read the related IA threads, and u'll find out that these skills ARE AIKIDO. They just weren't conveyed well.
And theyre what you should acquire if you really believe in Aikido and want to be the best Aikidoka you can.

Regarding Aunkai, (If you where joking then please excuse me - I didn't get it..) from my little exposure:
waste of movement is the diametrical opposite of them.
These guys are in my opinion far closer to MA aptitude and Aiki as O-sensei demonstrated than the average Aikidoka.
I can't wait to bring Akuzawa sensei over to the dead sea (working on it..) ofcourse that goes definitely for Mr. Sigman here : and some of the others who can contribute to us, and are willing.

Regards,

Boaz.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2009, 02:48 PM   #58
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Starting the internal aiki quest- my experience with Aunkai

Quote:
Boaz Neumann wrote: View Post
I was asking how you distinguish between body conditioning and "kokyu/jin/whatever forces " are they separate? or intertwined? dependant?
They are inextricably intertwined, Boaz. In other words, still whimsically borrowing Tohei as an explanation, the breathing exercises that Tohei teaches have a physical component (which I don't think he explains clearly, if at all) that is actually a part of the physical phenomena of the "ki tests". I.e., "ki breathing exercises" and "ki tests" are part of an interdependent whole that falls under the umbrella term of "ki". Although the skills have been developed to a nice degree over the eons into some nice complexities, they are still considered to be part of the "natural" abilities of the body that stem from breathing, intrinsic force manipulation, and so forth.

Best.

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2009, 12:45 AM   #59
Tim Fong
 
Tim Fong's Avatar
Dojo: Aunkai
Location: California
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 177
Offline
Re: Starting the internal aiki quest- my experience with Aunkai

Quote:
Shany Golan wrote: View Post
aha, Aunkai reminds of the Drunken Kung-Fu method! Too much energy for such low effect!
boaz, was Aikikai so bad that you had to search for other stuff?
I sure felt an effect when I was on the receiving end of Akuzawa-sensei and his Tokyo students. You don't have to take my word for it though.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2009, 06:51 AM   #60
HL1978
Dojo: Aunkai
Location: Fairfax, VA
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 429
United_States
Offline
Re: Starting the internal aiki quest- my experience with Aunkai

Quote:
Tim Fong wrote: View Post
I sure felt an effect when I was on the receiving end of Akuzawa-sensei and his Tokyo students. You don't have to take my word for it though.
There's always video of seminar participants getting tossed around rather than overly accommodating students.

http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=mAJVQM...F6D8B5&index=3
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2009, 10:08 AM   #61
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
United_States
Offline
Re: Starting the internal aiki quest- my experience with Aunkai

I certainly was impressed, and had alot of fun with Ark...but you don't have to take my word for it either.

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2009, 10:14 AM   #62
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Starting the internal aiki quest- my experience with Aunkai

Frankly, I'm no longer concerned with converting those not interested.

Move along Shany, nothing to see here...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2009, 12:09 PM   #63
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Starting the internal aiki quest- my experience with Aunkai

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Frankly, I'm no longer concerned with converting those not interested.

Move along Shany, nothing to see here...
Hi Ron:

I haven't had any real dealings with Shany in the past so I'm not talking about him directly, but about your comment in general. I'm personally more interested in providing information to the really-interested-in-the-topic people who can't find information... in other words to provide some of the hand-up that I used to desperately look for. Convert people? Not any more than I have to do in any reasoned debate/discussion.

But let's step back a little further than what's going on now and back even before the infamous "Ki Wars" in the Aikido community. When you get a foot-hold in these skills, the relevance of application to many of the things Ueshiba said in Aikido becomes blatantly obvious; so obvious that you wonder why you have to argue the point. Right? Now think about the one-time chief instructor at Hombu Dojo, Koichi Tohei, and how he tried to initiate studies in these skills more than forty years ago .

Heh. Talk about frustrated. Not to say that he couldn't perhaps have been clearer in explication, but he tried. Remember when I came nosing around on AikiWeb this last time, back in 2005? Remember some of the comments from Aikido "experts" about the "party tricks" that Tohei did? I'm not making any real comment about anything or anybody, but you have to admit that some of the reactions over the years haven't been offputting so much as they've been downright humorous. I smile just about every time that I open the forum and see that ki discussions are in "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions". I think it's the perfect place to put it!

Best.

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2009, 12:36 PM   #64
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Starting the internal aiki quest- my experience with Aunkai

Yah, it's good to tickle the funny bone once in a while. I'm just finding less and less time to post online, and less and less inclination to waste the time I do find.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2009, 02:10 PM   #65
Ishimuzi
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 14
Israel
Offline
Re: Starting the internal aiki quest- my experience with Aunkai

Hi guys,

A question that popped-up:

What's your opinion regarding flexibility and how it affects the structure? do you limit your flexibility exercises to specific areas?
Is flexibility a trade-off with structure or unity of the body?
Or - is it possible to attain the body unity and achieve flexibility
What comes first?

Regards,

Boaz.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2009, 03:24 PM   #66
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Starting the internal aiki quest- my experience with Aunkai

Quote:
Boaz Neumann wrote: View Post
A question that popped-up:

What's your opinion regarding flexibility and how it affects the structure? do you limit your flexibility exercises to specific areas?
Is flexibility a trade-off with structure or unity of the body?
Or - is it possible to attain the body unity and achieve flexibility
What comes first?
I think flexibility is paramount, in conjunction with the "whole-body connection" that is developed through movement and breathing exercises. You can't "hit with your hara" if the hara can't move.

Best.

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2009, 04:55 PM   #67
Gernot Hassenpflug
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 319
Japan
Offline
Re: Starting the internal aiki quest- my experience with Aunkai

Akuzawa stresses "range of motion" of joints, which is different from the general "flexibility" that people associate with being able to stretch into particular positions: you can't fake lack of flexibility in a particular joint by compensating with a gradual whole-body "bend" via small actions of a lot of other joints. That's one reason the body must stay "upright" or "straight" while the legs do various things in the walking exercises done in the beginning of the class.

Once the main body joints (in the trunk) start to relax enough to transmit motion through them, then the other joints need to be made relaxed enough too (knees, ankles, elbows, wrists), so that eventually a movement of say, the leg, has a whole-body "stretch" associated it through all the joints right the way to the fingertips.

So "range of motion" is kind of all-encompassing eventually, not just referring to one joint at a time.

Gernot Hassenpflug
Aunkai, Tokyo, Japan
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2009, 02:03 PM   #68
Ishimuzi
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 14
Israel
Offline
Re: Starting the internal aiki quest- my experience with Aunkai

So I understand that you mean that the flexibility doesn't necessarily contradict the structure-unity?
It seems tricky in the beginning to be flexible and yet maintaining the structure and extending Ki.

Anybody here know about the Systema take in this?

Boaz
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2009, 02:26 PM   #69
Budd
 
Budd's Avatar
Dojo: Taikyoku Budo - NY, MD
Location: Williamsville, NY
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 932
United_States
Offline
Re: Starting the internal aiki quest- my experience with Aunkai

Perhaps thinking of flexibility/stretching in terms of opening up pathways inside the body to transmit power - rather than doing the splits or reaching your arm back in a funky angle . . simple example being the kind of stability you have when you sink and open the pelvis, while bringing the solidity of the ground up through you. You need flexibility and leg strength to carry the weight of the upper body and to be able to receive and send power up through it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2009, 10:18 AM   #70
BAP
Dojo: Union University Aikido
Location: Jackson, TN
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 40
United_States
Offline
Re: Starting the internal aiki quest- my experience with Aunkai

I have a question regarding flexibility and ki training. Are there any good exercises that can be done to promote flexibility to knees especially. I am sure I am not alone that I get a lot of knee popping especially after classes and just in general. Any suggestions?

Thanks.

Blair
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2009, 03:11 PM   #71
thisisnotreal
 
thisisnotreal's Avatar
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 694
Offline
Re: knee

Blair -
Some ideas and cautions

1. you have 1 set of knees. Don't f**k 'em up doing something stupid. R&D on your own body can be costly. Learn seriously now.

2. Joint integrity is critical. Learn how the knees work/are strapped together from the femur to the tibia.

3. Learn how they mechanically work. It is an unbelievable mechanism. Very delicately balanced.

4. 'Grease the groove'. Find the strong line where they bend. Do slow movements. Feel inside your leg, toes, glutes, hamstrings, etc. what you have to do to maintain joint integrity.

5. When something pops or snaps..I think of this as something good was happening just prior to the snap. you are building your structures to contain/maintain/guide more and more tension. then it failed. Do not repeat the failure over and over.

6. try this exercise: lots to learn: Stand in hanmi. Front knee over foot. Bend front knee straight over foot (/big toe). Go low. Try to press big toe into ground and simultaneously remainder of foot blade towards the big toe (parallel to the plane of the ground). Lots of connections in the foot itself, the fibula/tibia, VMO, glute. The image is pressing/squeezing foot together horizontally as more and more force is conducted thru the foot/knee/leg. Go slow. if this is useless to you, drop it. Be ridiculously careful if your knee is ever over your heel. you can train here; but you are taking great risks. Always remember force conduction path thru leg. Let the vector go straight into the earth. DO NOT HAVE ANY FORCE LEAKAGE through your knee. Let it be a force conduit. You may have to massively strengthen your glutes and quads.. Carry the weight and tension actively there wherever possible.
Experiment.

7. Learn about soft-tissue work. Foam rolling. See Eric Cressey, etc.
Release ITB/TFL tightness. Then roll on it. Find imbalances in muscles. Fix them by strengthening or stretching. Get rid of trigger points (Davies)

All the real learning you do will be your own. Take care.

Good Luck.

Josh
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2009, 07:51 PM   #72
Budd
 
Budd's Avatar
Dojo: Taikyoku Budo - NY, MD
Location: Williamsville, NY
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 932
United_States
Offline
Re: Starting the internal aiki quest- my experience with Aunkai

One thing I'd add is to learn how to distribute the load properly so that it's passing through the back, hip girdle and then to your feet, so that your knees aren't getting anything special . . that's pretty critical.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Shioda, Tohei, and Ki Things Mike Sigman General 118 03-13-2010 06:18 AM
Thoughts on Aiki Expo '05 by SeiserL SeiserL Seminars 10 12-15-2006 04:38 PM
Takemusu Aiki in Systematic Teaching? Erick Mead Training 39 11-02-2006 09:55 AM
Culture of Martial Mediocrity? L. Camejo Training 160 02-03-2006 01:25 AM
What Makes a Technique an "Aikido" Technique? akiy Techniques 55 11-02-2005 02:01 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:39 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2016 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2016 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate