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Old 03-01-2009, 03:26 PM   #26
James Wyatt
Dojo: Budokwai
Location: London
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Re: Aikido and Judo, probably already done but,

They (being other martial arts) are all the same but different (so says my sensei, whom was also instructed by Tomiki Sensei in the judo kata and the goshin ju jutsu (he was later given permission by the Kodokan to write a book on it).

He pointed out when demonstrating the forms of five the principles of all martial arts are the same and interpreted differently. The forms of five were for the very high dan ranks as they had a deeper understanding of the underlying principles. On another occasion I remember watching a very high ranking karateka giving a demonstration and thought it was an aikido technique and the judoka next to me thought it was judo!

I understand a technique can be broken down to kuzushi (breaking of balance) with tsukuri (distance) and kake (throw).

James
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Old 03-01-2009, 03:32 PM   #27
Flintstone
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Re: Aikido and Judo, probably already done but,

Quote:
Joe Dexter wrote: View Post
According to Tomiki Sensei both the principles of Ju and Aiki are one and the same.
Isn't it that Mochizuki Sensei said the same thing? "Judo AIkido Ichi"? I cannot find the reference, though...
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Old 03-01-2009, 08:31 PM   #28
mwible
Dojo: Aikido of Suenaka-Ha in Greater Richmond
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Re: Aikido and Judo, probably already done but,

Quote:
Joseph Connolly wrote: View Post
That is just as much a gross simplificaiton as saying aikido is based on your partner grabbing your wrist in a a defined manner. A better simplification is that Judo places emphasis on Kuzushi while Aikido places emphasis on Irimi/Tenkan. The question would be, does Irimi/Tenkan lead to Kuzushi (or loss of balance) or does the breaking of Kuzishi allow you to turn and/or enter? Wel lat least that is my very simple shallow understanding of it. I may be 0 to 100% correct.
In my studies, Kuzushi should be maintained throughout every technique. It does not lead to Irimi/Tenkan, moving Irimi or Tenkan is just a means of aquiring the Kazushi of your opponent.

in aiki,
morgan

"When you bow deeply to the universe, it bows back; when you call out the name of God, it echoes inside you." - O' sensei
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Old 03-02-2009, 07:06 AM   #29
92ilyas
Dojo: Unity Aikido
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Re: Aikido and Judo, probably already done but,

Just to back up the statement I made in my last post

In his book Aikido and Judo on page 101 Tomiki Sensei states...

""The meaning of "aikido." The old saying goes, "It is the spirit that carries the mind and controls the body." The people of ancient times believed that man's mind and body and consequently his strength were under the control of the spirit. Aiki means making your spirit "fit in" with your opponent's. After all it means the same thing as the "principle of gentleness," for it is an explanation of the principle from within.""
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Old 03-02-2009, 07:38 AM   #30
92ilyas
Dojo: Unity Aikido
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Re: Aikido and Judo, probably already done but,

Oh yeah I just remembered I also have on video tape Ohba Sensei giving a class on a visit to Australia in the late 70's or early 80's in which he threw Futami Sensei with Osoto Gari Judo throw followed immediately by Aigamae Ate Aikido throw then saying to the class "Aikido Judo same"
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Old 03-02-2009, 10:02 PM   #31
aikishrine
Dojo: aikido of central new york
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Re: Aikido and Judo, probably already done but,

I have been reading and enjoying your replies to my thread, so please keep them coming. I want to say that i personally dont find that they are similar, maybe it is the way my Judo Sensei teaches us. The only school i have to my avail. is sport oriented, and maybe there are schools that are different, or more self defensive in orientation. Perhaps those would be more closely related to Aikido.

That being said i have watched videos on the itsutsu no kata and i can see where one might see aiki. Also i will say that i truly enjoy training in both and will continue to do so for as long as i can.
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Old 03-04-2009, 10:26 AM   #32
Cyrijl
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Re: Aikido and Judo, probably already done but,

Quote:
Morgan Wible wrote: View Post
In my studies, Kuzushi should be maintained throughout every technique. It does not lead to Irimi/Tenkan, moving Irimi or Tenkan is just a means of aquiring the Kazushi of your opponent.

in aiki,
morgan
Sorry if I wasn't clear, that is what I meant, 'you use your movement to unbalance your opponent.'

melior est canis vivus leone mortuo
Bog svsami!!!
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Old 03-06-2009, 10:11 AM   #33
aikishrine
Dojo: aikido of central new york
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Re: Aikido and Judo, probably already done but,

Getting back to the original point of this thread, i have been reading a book called "Mind Over Muscle" by Jigoro Kano in which he points out in more than one spot that his main point of breaking kuzushi is pushing when pulled and vice versa. Now i do certainly agree with alot of you who have posted on this thread that irimi/tenkan is also of some importance, however i still have to believe that push/pull is the main component of Judo. Which separates it from Aikido in a great way. And while i have the utmost respect for people like Kenji Tomiki, i think his statement about Aikido and Judo being the same, is a gross injustice to both arts. IMHO.
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Old 03-06-2009, 11:45 AM   #34
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido and Judo, probably already done but,

Quote:
Brian Northrup wrote: View Post
And while i have the utmost respect for people like Kenji Tomiki, i think his statement about Aikido and Judo being the same, is a gross injustice to both arts. IMHO.
Since he was an 8th Dan in both arts, we at least have to think he had more to go on than just whimsical opinion, though.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 03-06-2009, 12:07 PM   #35
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Aikido and Judo, probably already done but,

Quote:
Brian Northrup wrote: View Post
Getting back to the original point of this thread, i have been reading a book called "Mind Over Muscle" by Jigoro Kano in which he points out in more than one spot that his main point of breaking kuzushi is pushing when pulled and vice versa. Now i do certainly agree with alot of you who have posted on this thread that irimi/tenkan is also of some importance, however i still have to believe that push/pull is the main component of Judo. Which separates it from Aikido in a great way. And while i have the utmost respect for people like Kenji Tomiki, i think his statement about Aikido and Judo being the same, is a gross injustice to both arts. IMHO.
I don't know about an injustice...I mean, sure it's a simplification when you consider the historical differences, but the practices themselves come from the same basic roots and they explore the same basic human form, even if they tend to express it a little differently. Also, I do remember looking up judo stuff and finding that it looked very much like Shodokan Aikido...which was very similar to the Aikido I learned from Sensei Barrish (which is itself I think heavily based on Tohei Shihan's Aikido). Same same but different.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 03-07-2009, 05:33 AM   #36
PeterR
 
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Re: Aikido and Judo, probably already done but,

I've always like to say Aikido is what you do while closing the distance - Judo is what you do when you get there.

Kenji Tomiki taught both Aikido and Judo at Waseda during the same period but was very careful to keep the practice of both separate. There were a number of reasons for this I think but not to do with either art being grossly different from each other in the broadest sense.

One of the clearest reasons is that if you allow Judo techniques into the Aikido randori it becomes Judo very quickly - which defeats the point which is to train aikido techniques.

Another reason was that the purpose of Judo at the University level especially universities like Waseda is to train strong competitors - with Judo the more subtle levels of the art come later.

Aikido tends to do the opposite in that kata dominates randori earlier in the game. Kenji Tomiki sure felt that certain aikido went too far (hence his Aikido randori) but he also felt that both were integrated into the jujutsu whole.

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I don't know about an injustice...I mean, sure it's a simplification when you consider the historical differences, but the practices themselves come from the same basic roots and they explore the same basic human form, even if they tend to express it a little differently. Also, I do remember looking up judo stuff and finding that it looked very much like Shodokan Aikido...which was very similar to the Aikido I learned from Sensei Barrish (which is itself I think heavily based on Tohei Shihan's Aikido). Same same but different.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 03-07-2009, 12:07 PM   #37
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido and Judo, probably already done but,

Good points Peter. I agree. I train Aikido, Judo, and BJJ..which are all variations of training on the same theme.

I see much value in keeping the practices separate and distinct as they allow you to concentrate on an indepth study at what is essentially three distinct ranges of combat.

Of course, they are not really separate and distinct and each has elements of overlap, for example Judo and BJJ are very, very similar but Judo provides an very indepth study of throws whereas BJJ is very weak in that area, BJJ does Newaza very well, but in weaker in throwing.

Aikido is a wonderful practice for learning about..not so much the range, although we tend to practice "connection" at a weapons based range alot...which frankly I find to be very difficult to do and what I consider to be "grad school" level since you are dealing with so, so much space and very, very little actual connection.

We also study, as you know the whole concept of Kokyu, which today, in my Aikido class I had a new understanding of it and plan on trying some things out with it in my BJJ class next week!

Keeping the practices separate provides me structure that allows me to focus and explore a deeper understanding of the dynamics of what we are doing.

I then like to synthesize them back into my "self" and unify all that as one when I do whatever it is that I do!

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Old 03-08-2009, 11:06 AM   #38
aikishrine
Dojo: aikido of central new york
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Re: Aikido and Judo, probably already done but,

Kevin i was wondering what your base art is? And what art you started first, second, and third?
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Old 03-08-2009, 12:21 PM   #39
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido and Judo, probably already done but,

I started Tae Kwon Do as part of a health club membership, then migrated to a local, traditional Karate School for about 5 years. When I moved to DC I was told by my karate instructor to take advantage of Saotome Sensei and ASU as much as I could.

My base art I believe is AIkido as it is the one I have spent the most time with over the last 13 years.

About 5 years ago, I started BJJ, which is the one I am concentrating most of my personal efforts on right now.

I currently practice and teach BJJ about 10 hours per week (5 Days per week). I spend only about (4 hours) 1 day a week in Aikido. I also currently study and compete in Judo 2 days a week in the evenings for about 4 hours).

In addition, I spend some of my "work" time with the Army Combatives program each quarter.

For my "aiki" training these days I prefer to try and interpret and integrate it into my other practices. I am fortunate to have access to some good teachers so the time I spend on Saturday mornings is well spent. I also like to try and attend seminars with folks like Mike Sigman, Ark and Rob John, Toby Threadgill, and hopefully soon Ushiro Sensei.

WIth AIki, I like to try and stress QUALITY training over shear QUANITY. That and I like it to be INTEGRATIVE in my "Combative" practices as that is very important to me so this is how I like to balance my time right now.

I am also exploring the Alexander Technique teaching methods as I find their interpretation of how the mind and body work together to be quite interesting and a very applicable methodology in this learning process.

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